Marriage Advocates

How to deconstruct a marriage.

Posted By: OurHouse

How to deconstruct a marriage. - 08/31/10 03:24 PM

I am not sure this post belongs in this forum. But I don't know where else to put it. The purpose of it is to solicit advice on how to break apart a marriage without blowing the individuals in the family (spouses and kids), out of the water.

For the purposes of this thread, please assume that the writer has already made the decision to end the marriage as it currently exists today. Whether that will take the form of short or longer-term separation, or eventual divorce...I don't know. But it won't involve a husband and wife living together in the same house.

So as many of you know, husband is not working and has no income. Wife could probably make ends meet on current jobs (FT and PT), and is willing to move to a less expensive living situation (without husband).

I am not sure if it's best to: a) dump his stuff at the curb and change the locks. b) try to work out an equitable but non-legally binding (i.e., no lawyers to pay!) arrangement for the interim c)wait it out 'til 2012 when I will have finished grad school and kid #2 will have finished high school and kid #3 will only be in 6th grade so I can really pick up and move anywhere or d) some other permutation or combination I haven't discovered.

I know all about emotional honesty, what I seem to "owe" him in terms of that. Plan A, Plan B, Plan D, Plan Doormat, yadda yadda, yadda.

I have tried the emotional honesty route. Either I'm terrible at listening and communicating, or the target audience is refusing to listen.

I need a plan. It doesn't have to be executed today or tomorrow. And it doesn't have to be set in stone. But it does have to have minimal collateral damage.

I sort of feel like I have no business on a marriage advocacy forum with this type of plan in my future.
Posted By: catperson

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 08/31/10 04:29 PM

OH, I have missed you! I'm so glad to see you here.

I would say that waiting til 2012 is just too long. I worry for you waiting that long.

Have you talked to the kids about it? I would tend to go toward what they want, at their age, if you can do it.
Posted By: AntigoneRisen

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 08/31/10 05:07 PM

Hello from someone who has mostly been there and done that! smile

Unfortunately, any plan really depends upon how the husband wants to react.

When I separated from my ex-husband, I really tried to do things as amiably and respectfully as possible. He left loads of dirty laundry behind him. I picked it up, sorted it, washed it, folded it, packed it up, and delivered it to where he was staying. However, he never would come and get his personal belongings. So, eventually, on the advice of my attorney, I put his stuff in the driveway and sent him a notice to pick it up by a certain date or it would be hauled away. The point is, we don't always get what we want.

Can you give us some indication as to the husband's attitude towards separating/divorcing?
Posted By: TACticGAL

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 08/31/10 05:13 PM

I agree with catperson that 2012 is too long.

What I ended up doing (after I demanded that SD leave my home) was filing for divorce, because I need to secure my finances against his behaviour. Because I have the house, I went ahead and hired an attorney, but she's one of my BFF's so she let me pay her down a little more than the filing fees and I pay her monthly until the fee is paid.

Now, STBX isn't physically out of the house yet, because the only places he has to go are out of range of his long term sub job. So we've had to negotiate how he'll be in the house - in the "spare" room, contributing to the chores & such.

If the housemate situation wasn't working out well, I was going to give him a month's notice to get out.

What you need to remember is that he's an adult. You can have compassion, but he needs to be able to fend for himself. You're NOT his mother. You can tell him this is where it's going, that you're moving on X date, and he needs to figure out what he's going to do. You can ask for his input on how long it will take him to get self sufficient, but don't be held to it or he'll drag it out as long as possible.

As for your place on this forum, I'm in the same boat BUT I propose that we can determine that the CURRENT marriage isn't workable, and still be here because we're determined to figure out what went wrong (even if that's in the choice of partners) and how to make sure we do better next time.

Hugs,
TAC
Posted By: AntigoneRisen

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 08/31/10 05:29 PM

Quote
I agree with catperson that 2012 is too long.


I'll add a third on that, as well. I don't know what I would have done if I'd been ready to separate and had to stay together for a year and a half or more longer. I'm pretty sure one of us would have been arrested and the other hospitalized.

Oh, and I did change the locks, but not until six months after separating.

Quote
I have tried the emotional honesty route. Either I'm terrible at listening and communicating, or the target audience is refusing to listen.


Been there, done that, have the very worn t-shirt. We do not have the power to change other people, only ourselves. This means that we must eventually accept that we've made our requests and case, but the answer is "no". Sometimes the answer is "no", and we have to deal with that reality. We have no power to make other people take us seriously, or care about what we say.
Posted By: AntigoneRisen

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 08/31/10 05:40 PM

Quote
If the housemate situation wasn't working out well, I was going to give him a month's notice to get out.


Be careful with this. I went through it with a friend I let stay with me during my divorce. A 30 day notice was all that was legally required, but if the person doesn't leave and has established residency, you do have to go through full-scale eviction proceedings.
Posted By: TACticGAL

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 08/31/10 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by AntigoneRisen
Quote
If the housemate situation wasn't working out well, I was going to give him a month's notice to get out.


Be careful with this. I went through it with a friend I let stay with me during my divorce. A 30 day notice was all that was legally required, but if the person doesn't leave and has established residency, you do have to go through full-scale eviction proceedings.


Thanks, I appreciate it. It's not even an issue until the divorce is finalized (end of September) so I'm not stressing right now. I technically cannot force him to leave (without more court hearings) until then, since there's no basis for a restraining order.
Posted By: AntigoneRisen

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 08/31/10 05:46 PM

Quote
It's not even an issue until the divorce is finalized (end of September) so I'm not stressing right now.


Is it too late to put this as a clause in the divorce agreement? That way, when the divorce settlement is approved and court-ordered, you could (depends upon your state) already have a court order for his removal.
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 08/31/10 06:23 PM

I know 2012 is really out there. On one hand, I've lived with it this long. On the other hand, is it really fair not only to me, but to the kids and even him? I'm certainly not playing the wife part these days. I basically am mom to 2 kids (one is in college, 2 are still home)and a presence that exists where he is concerned. I am not mean or rude. I don't ignore him. I don't insult him. I just choose to have minimal engagement and interaction with him. Yes, I totally agree, it is NOT healthy.

He keeps asking me why I stopped talking to him. I can't make him see the answer but geez, louise, I am scratching my head wondering which part of "why" he missed? I have tried to tell him and he interrupts me and changes the subject to how awful life is for him, or he says that once again, I am not listening to him. Once he even said "you're not listening. If your gums are flapping that means you're not listening". If I tell him (as I did this afternoon) that I don't talk much anymore because a: I have my own issues to work on and don't want his input and b: he has made it clear I am a poor listener every time I start to talk, he tells me that I am destroying the marriage, that I can't possibly think this is going to help matters any. His words today: "you think I don't know what you're doing? You think you're pulling the wool over my eyes? You think this is helping matters any?" Once again, all about him.

The sad part is that the "all about him" part doesn't even bother me anymore. I have just come to expect it.

So talking about anything near and dear to my heart is out. He doesn't understand why...I certainly can't make him understand. I have tried writing things down and delivering by note, by email, etc. He gets angry and wants me to talk to him face to face. "Having things in writing just makes it that much easier for you to throw it back in my face someday".

So, lather, rinse repeat.

The whole job sitch has me stewing in resentment and that's not healthy.

So yes, 2012 is the target date, but that doesn't mean I can't work towards something earlier. I just wish I could wave a magic wand and have it done and have no one hurt in the process.

That and $4.50 will buy me a fancy latte at Starbucks.

p.s. Hi Catperson. I have missed you, too!
Posted By: catperson

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 08/31/10 06:37 PM

We are still so much alike. Just the other day I caught myself thinking 'ok, that's it, I'm back to not speaking to him again, and he'll never even notice.' I've been having creepy dreams about him, too. Maybe I'm starting to figure out in my head how sick our relationship is, which I've been avoiding all these years. I have, though, become more vocal about his negativity. The other night, in the car, it was like one comment after another - the Mexicans, the stupid people, the government, the this, the that...all about how they are screwing him over...probably 10 comments in 10 minutes. And I finally just blurted out 'Can you PLEASE stop talking like that? The world is not out to get you!' And he shut up. I'll have to try it some more, if just to get him to stop talking negative to me.

No, what I really should be doing is saying 'If you keep saying those things out loud, I'm going to end up moving out.' Still too chicken to bring that up again. You're braver than me.
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 08/31/10 07:04 PM

Your H is not as stubborn as mine though. If I'd said PLEASE stop talking like that...he would have said "I'll talk how I want, what's your problem?" Sometimes I think if he would respond like your husband did...just to stop, instead of projecting the anger back to me and trying to make it my problem..well maybe I could deal with it, in that case.

I haven't brought up moving out per se..I just haven't brought up *anything*. The ensuing arguments are just not worth it!
Posted By: TACticGAL

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 08/31/10 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by AntigoneRisen
Quote
It's not even an issue until the divorce is finalized (end of September) so I'm not stressing right now.


Is it too late to put this as a clause in the divorce agreement? That way, when the divorce settlement is approved and court-ordered, you could (depends upon your state) already have a court order for his removal.


We haven't even given my attorney the property division list, so no, it's not too late. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll mention it to my atty. smile
Posted By: TACticGAL

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 08/31/10 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by OurHouse
Your H is not as stubborn as mine though. If I'd said PLEASE stop talking like that...he would have said "I'll talk how I want, what's your problem?" Sometimes I think if he would respond like your husband did...just to stop, instead of projecting the anger back to me and trying to make it my problem..well maybe I could deal with it, in that case.

I haven't brought up moving out per se..I just haven't brought up *anything*. The ensuing arguments are just not worth it!


I know what you mean. But, this constant verbal abuse he's subjecting you and the kids to is going to wear on all of you.

I hate to say it, but there's no way out of situations like ours without hurting someone. Maybe everyone, but it's like in medicine when sometimes you have to cause hurt in order to make things ultimately better.

I think the question you should ask yourself is do you want to rip the bandaid off quick, or make it slow and painful for a long time?

It's amazing to me how much harder STBX worked on finding a job once I threw SD out of the house and he got the divorce paperwork in the mail.
Posted By: NewEveryDay

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 08/31/10 10:22 PM

OH, I'm drawing a blank as far as answers, but I feel your pain, hon, how hard it is living with a hostile partner. I'm hoping you can create enough fun with the kids that your H will want to join in some, too.
Posted By: Kittycat

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/01/10 04:10 AM

Just wanted to say hi to Catperson and the others! Thank goodness this board has REAL posters. That other board is D_E_A_D!!!!
Posted By: NewEveryDay

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/01/10 11:38 AM

OH, you have lots of options, even if none of them are really appealing. But that's the awareness, acceptance, action. You're at the first part, being aware of the situation, even when it's painful to come out of denial. Are you at a point of acceptance yet, where you accept the limits of what you are able to do? That's when the action gets more clear.

We've talked about some ways to learn to thrive despite your surroundings, but at the time, you weren't interested in that. There are other options, too, as you said, separating with or without POJA. How are you feeling now? Do you want to pick a path, try it for two weeks, and reassess?

Do you have that book, The Dilemma of an Alcoholic Marriage? I think you will find it really validating to read through it, and you'll get a lot of ideas how to deflect the battles, and reconnect a great deal, to like a brother-sister relationship. Where he would pick other folks outside the family as scapegoats, instead of you, because you'd be on the list of folks that "come through" for him again, like in the early days. Would you be interested in something like that?
Posted By: NewEveryDay

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/01/10 12:09 PM

I've got to be honest, I would love to see you separate, before you totally lose everything you have for your H. I think it would show your kids that marriages aren't just to be tossed away, that sometimes we need to stand up and take action to protect what we have. You remember last time, sleeping on the couch or something, your H did respond to your boundary-setting and start working with you for a time. From way out here, I think this process would be safer emotionally for you *and your minor kids* outside the house. What do you think? Once you two are working a plan, you two could meet for date night and family time, like that newsletter When to Call It Quits, until you have seen the consistency that it takes to move back in.

LA shares how she google "Pro-marriage Christian counselor," and found the person who walked her and her H through the process. What do you think about something like this?

I know I'm all over the board, suggesting letting the marriage die into a sibling-like relationship in one post, and hard charging about saving the marriage the next. I thought about what a marriage advocate is, and I think it is giving it your all. What do you think?
Posted By: Lil

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/01/10 10:15 PM

OH,
Like NED I am a bit torn, part of me thinks if he got the right shock he might wake up to what he is loosing, the other part of me thinks he's just one of those who is always the victim and there is nothing that can be done.

I would prefer if you separated BEFORE you turn into one of those people who hate their XS so much they only ever speak of them to vilify them. Bitter and twisted is not wholesome to the soul yanno. I have a friend - sweetest woman in the world. Get her talking about her X an man! Hate oozes out of her.

OTOH I remember setting myself a time period of 2 years to stick out my M. Nearly left a few times, but made it to it.

Don't mind me. I am a Libra. Everything has to be weighed grin
Posted By: Lil

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/01/10 10:16 PM

Are you still sleeping in the same room/bed together?
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/01/10 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by lildoggie
Are you still sleeping in the same room/bed together?


Yes, but I get there after he's asleep and am gone before he wakes up.
Posted By: Lil

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/01/10 10:44 PM

What do you think will happen if you move into another room, or put single beds in there?
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/01/10 10:58 PM

Last year, around this time, I moved to the couch. It was my line in the sand to get him on the phone with Steve Harley. It was a horrible two weeks and I do NOT want to repeat that!
Posted By: catperson

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/01/10 11:32 PM

OH, you realize what that is, right? It's adjusting your own behavior - what YOU want - to avoid HIS behavior.

What if you make a decision for yourself to - from this day forward - to do ONLY what fits within your own core beliefs? To only do what is right for you, no matter WHAT you expect from him?
Posted By: Lil

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/01/10 11:34 PM

I freely admit, I didnt keep up with your thread much before so some of this is new to me.

Right, so just to clarify; you are thinking of D, but still in the weighing up stage. Your H's overall attitude stinks.H appears to believe that the only thing wrong in the M is you. The consequence of taking a stand are worse than the consequences of doing nothing. You believe your H fully understands what you are thinking and feeling about the M. You believe he is making either a deliberate effort to disregard the elephant and/or is truly blind to said elephant getting picked up by you as a precursor to thumping him over the head with it in the form of a D.
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/01/10 11:47 PM

Lil, I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Add to that, if he does nothing and eventually *I* do something, he will be able to salve his conscious by pointing to me as the "beyotch who destroyed the marriage".

He was married briefly before we were. I don't know all the details except for his side and I'm sure she was no angel...they were both very young. But misery ensued long before she just up and left him one day. And I think he actually felt vindicated when she did that...as in "ok, SHE destroyed the marriage" (the marriage was already in deep doo-doo, but he was able to point to her and cast blame).

I suspect the same thing will happen here. It used to really bug me and that's part of what kept me here. I've moved past that a bit...but yes, I'm still in the weighing up stage. Mostly weighing up the WHEN, not the WHY.

He's said as much to me recently, BTW. "Do you know what you ar doing to 22 years of marriage when you act this way?"
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/02/10 12:24 AM

I just never know what to say anymore. Kids came home with the usual first-day-of-school emergency contact paperwork cards today. I have *always* filled these out. Phone numbers for mother, father, place of employment, best number to try first, health insurance, neighbor contact, etc.

I entered my name, my work, my numbers. I entered his name and his number. Left work blank.

He comes over to me...he's very angry and upset. Says "I just saw this. My name and...nothing. Is this what you think of me? This goes back to our children's school, in this small town where we live. So everyone knows our business (this is a big thing with him..he's convinced everyone knows his dirty laundry and hates him).

I said "I filled out the forms the way I always do. When you are working, I put in your place of employment. You are not working."

Again, it turned back to "is this what you think of me?"

I said "I think I have to turn in the correct information to the schools"

And he started to tell me how I was airing dirty laundry, etc. I had to stop the conversation.

Ugh.

He needs more help than I can give him. I have suggested counseling but he refuses. It's another reason I have to extract myself.

I really am working on it. I just want to do it as painlessly as possible. I know it might not be possible. And I know it won't be as quickly as some people think I should do it.
Posted By: catperson

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/02/10 01:01 AM

Nah, you do things just at the pace you should. We are all different; many of us take longer than others to make the move. No one judges you for that.
Posted By: NewEveryDay

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/02/10 12:20 PM

Quote
He comes over to me...he's very angry and upset. Says "I just saw this. My name and...nothing. Is this what you think of me? This goes back to our children's school, in this small town where we live. So everyone knows our business (this is a big thing with him..he's convinced everyone knows his dirty laundry and hates him).


Have you ever read that Between Parent and Child, by Hiam Ginott? It talks about helping our kids get past their hurts, by acknowledging their feelings. Do you notice how folks don't hardly ever get defensive with LA, even when she touches on stuff that they would snap at other folks if they mentioned?

Like you said, you know what he was trying to tell you, he's just projecting his feelings onto you and the other scapegoats (the townsfolk). That he feels like nothing, and feels embarrassed that he thinks everyone is thinking this. You've been living with this long enough, you know how to detach from this, "I know, it feels awful when folks just judge you on the parts that they see. Let's think of a name for your contracting company. How about House and Sons? And we'll put in the numbers." Just write in the same one again if you want. How important is it? I mean, OH, if this is what you're choosing to live with today, you know how to defuse it. Or like you did, putting the conversation on the back burner for a bit.

And then get some time doing something that's fun for you. Invite your H to join. You know he wants to be your hero, OH.

I remember I had some spells where I was just overwhelmed, didn't see a path out, and was just cranky every day. I would pick fights because I wanted a connection, but felt like I was going to be turned down, didn't see a clear path. You know how to clear the path today. What are some safe topics of conversation you could get going, so he does have that connection. Fun stuff you two like to do together.I would imagine it's rough right now, because the only way he is used to connecting with you is with the SF, and that's gone for now.
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/02/10 12:58 PM

Good suggestions, Neddie, thanks.

I think I did the right thing for me last night, which was to detach. Capitulating and saying "let's think of a name for your company..." etc..wouldn't have worked for us. For one thing, it would be difficult for me to deliver this in a neutral tone and for the other, I believe he would have taken this as some other subversive message for me and an argument would have ensued. So detaching was the right thing for me to do and I am happy that I have that tool in my arsenal these days.

He was angry this morning...I have told him (yes, via email...) that a longtime friend whom I haven't seen in 25+ years, is coming to town this weekend. We lost touch with each other but recently reconnected via Facebook. H does not know her...I haven't spoken to her since early dating days w/ H as she moved overseas and then I lost contact.

So my plan is to pick her up at the airport and then we're going to spend 2 nights at the beach (crappy timing with this hurricane bearing down on us...LOL). And then we'll spend the third day in the city and then come home. This morning he said "well you never TOLD me any of this (meaning he only saw it in an email). I didn't rise to that bait.

He took his car this AM (the only one of our vehicles that is really somewhat road-worthy) and I was trying to figure out if the other car would be ok. But I got a text from him about switching cars, so it appears he has had some second thoughts on that!
Posted By: TACticGAL

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/02/10 01:43 PM

OH - the only other thing I could think of to have included in the idiotic conversation about the school contact forms is to ask him what he'd like you to put in there.

But if I were in your position, I'd have done the exact same thing. I'd have probably even pushed harder on the "you're not working" angle, because that just infuriates me.
Posted By: catperson

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/02/10 04:15 PM

Making your own plans is exactly what you need to do. Start practicing being single. That might be the ONLY way he will ever wake up before it's too late - watching you build your own life without him.
Posted By: Lil

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/02/10 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by theantichick
OH - the only other thing I could think of to have included in the idiotic conversation about the school contact forms is to ask him what he'd like you to put in there.



This was exactly what I thought, and it could have been done with no anger of disrespect. Just a simple statement like, "oh ok, I didnt realise it was important to you. What do you want written in the space."

Airing dirty laundry *snort* like the school even cares. They only want the info for legal reasons more than anything else. Besides, what's so 'dirty' about whether or not someone works? Lazy, yes. dirty, no.
Posted By: NewEveryDay

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/03/10 01:09 AM

OH, you sound much less frustrated today. I look forward to hearing more about your weekend! Good for you for making fun plans! I think this will be good for your H, to be able to come through for you, too.

Do you all have fun when you take vacation as a family? Would that be worth planning for another time?

Girl, let me tell you, I'm bound and determined, these are going to be the *good* days. We spent enough time living in the shadows, disconnected from the joy all around us! I wish I was going on a weekend at the beach, too!
Posted By: Squeaky Tree

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/03/10 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by neweveryday


Have you ever read that Between Parent and Child, by Hiam Ginott? It talks about helping our kids get past their hurts, by acknowledging their feelings. Do you notice how folks don't hardly ever get defensive with LA, even when she touches on stuff that they would snap at other folks if they mentioned?



Very good book, I wish everyone could read it.
Posted By: SIHW

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/03/10 05:12 PM

Hey I got mine to stop talking to me altogether. I told his mom the truth about his adulterous misdoings and that along with the fights that would start when we would see each other and I would not accept his treatment of me. He now says he will only talk through the intermediary who doesn't want to deal with him as he has frustrated her just as much with his condescending tone and rude comments.

So it's kind of a stand off...he's too busy with his new perfect and happy adulterous situation to take care of the responsibilities. And I can't talk to him about when he's going to get the rest of his stuff myself(because he threatens a restrainging order if I don't go through the intermediary) and the intermediary just doesn't want to deal with him period on anything anymore.

At least you can have civil conversation. I am proud of you for sticking it out. I know it's tough.
Posted By: Telly

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/08/10 02:11 PM

Hi OH!

I've missed you (didn't know this wonderful new board was up until TODAY!!!!).

Anyway, I am also concerned about you staying until 2012... He just seems to be in such a bad place--and there's no way it doesn't effect you and your children... In fact, we see that it does.

YOu know that I am all about keeping marriages together (perhaps too much sometimes). I just don't know how you would emotionally survive till 2012.

Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/08/10 03:04 PM

Hi Telly:

I know, I have the same concerns. And recently, I've been experiencing a resurgence of my panic attacks and I am feeling sort of a depression coming on...

He is avoiding a discussion like the plague. I told him I want to sit down this weekend and talk to him, and that I hope he is appreciate of how difficult this will be. I am trying to be respectful of how much he hates (and ignores!!!) my email communications. So, I'm going to Face-to-face it and I have to figure out what I want to say, how to make it short and sweet, how to develop a plan to push back on him when he either tries to get me off track, tries to wrest control of the conversation, tries to minimize my feelings or if he gets angry and sulky (all very real possibilities).

I told him that if he didn't want to talk to me, that was fine...however, I wanted to talk to him and that I needed for him to listen to me.

Since then, he's been going out of his way to engage me somehow...wanting physical closeness, wanting to do stuff for me, wanting to talk to me. And I must be deeeeeeep in withdrawal, because I don't want any of that from him at the moment.
Posted By: catperson

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/08/10 03:10 PM

He must be horny. I always know when DH is; he's nice to me, he pays attention to me, he does housework, and there's a quickness in his movements, like he's excited. So predictable.

Use the talking stick this weekend.
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/08/10 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by catperson
He must be horny. I always know when DH is; he's nice to me, he pays attention to me, he does housework, and there's a quickness in his movements, like he's excited. So predictable.

Use the talking stick this weekend.


I had the same exact thought! Talk about feeling uber-used!
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/08/10 04:09 PM

I moved this from the Marriage Builders Forums discussion. Gladstone was replying to a discussion about BH's and Plan A, and we got a bit off track. I left his reply to me there..he is welcome to move it...but I did move mine.


I'm intrigued, Gladstone. Not that any two different people will have the same reaction...but like your wife, I have stated for over two years now, that I am unhappy. I have said it out loud, which often resulted in an argument or a one-upmanship with him being MORE unhappy, or me being minimized (it even happened again last night as I was on the verge of a full-blown panic attack and his response was "you need to settle down..you can't do anything about this at 11 o'clock at night"), or when I take it to email, him becoming angry because he doesn't want to get the long, involved emails. Even the short and to-the-point emails made him angry.

So now, I'm just *this close* to saying "I am out of here".
Posted By: catperson

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/08/10 04:13 PM

I thought you were already out of there?

OH, no disrespect, but what has changed from two years ago?

Nothing.

He is still getting a free ride while you do all the work. He has not changed. And your kids continue to grow up watching a grown man not accept his responsibilities nor become a healthy partner, and they are LEARNING how to be an adult from both him and you - to either be a hateful Taker or a permissive and unfulfilled Giver.

Time to move on. You know nothing will ever change. You are right back to where you were two Springs ago - saying you're going to 'talk' to him.
Posted By: Medc

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/08/10 04:25 PM

OH is in a difficult place. She is dealing with a husband that has a disease as invasive as cancer.
I have a friend whose wife has Huntington's Disease. It is terrible and has now begun to impact her ability to think clearly. Would he be justified in walking away from this woman during her illness. I think not.
OH's husband has NOT been given a fair shake in my opinion. OH, we discussed this a lot on FB and I see no reason to rehash everything here. I think it is time to sit down with him and TELL HIM that you will no longer live with a person not taking responsibility for their own mental health. Let him know, as we previously discussed, that he has two weeks (or whatever time-frame you want) to have an appointment with a mental health professional. Play hard ball with him now.
The problem as I see it is OH has checked out of the marriage and is using this as a springboard(and a bit of an excuse) to walk away. If you want out, do it honestly and above board. Let him know you are leaving and close the door for good. If you still want a healthy recovered husband, give him a chance to make it right while still maintaining CLEARLY STATED AND FIRM BOUNDARIES.
I KNOW you are in a tough place. You have made it tougher on yourself. Today you can choose to make it easier. Your choice. If you are going to walk, do it for the right reasons and in a dignified and respectful manner. You have that right and nobody will fault you. You have the ABILITY to attack this problem in a far better way. The choice is yours OH.
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/08/10 04:29 PM

That's my plan, actually. I am not planning a long, drawn-out, whiney "i'm unhaaaaaaaaaaaaapy" discussion. Kids will not be home this weekend and I have written my cheat-sheet.

1. Get help for depression

2. Stop drinking

And I will stay.

If not, I will move out with the kids (I have a place lined up now) and he can deal with the house and the fallout.
Posted By: Medc

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/08/10 04:33 PM

Give him a deadline. Do NOT leave it open ended. People with depression need to have a focus. The disease robs them of that.

If you stay, hopefully you will soften your heart towards him.
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/08/10 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Medc
Give him a deadline. Do NOT leave it open ended. People with depression need to have a focus. The disease robs them of that.

If you stay, hopefully you will soften your heart towards him.


That last part is going to be difficult. It's why I keep second guessing myself. I'm hoping that I will, otherwise, I probably need to go, regardless.
Posted By: catperson

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/08/10 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Medc
OH's husband has NOT been given a fair shake in my opinion.
I'm curious to know why you think that.

He knows ad nauseum that she is unhappy.

He knows she wants to leave.

She has given him deadlines before to get help and he has not.

And he has not made any attempt that I know of to do anything other than one phone call to Harley.
Posted By: Medc

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/08/10 05:39 PM

I feel that way for several reasons...some of which were discussed off board and will leave it to OH to bring up.
But for starters...depression is a serious disease and it robs a person of exactly what OH is looking for from her husband...motivation and direction. IF he had any other disease, we would be more understanding. Depression is still very poorly understood and still carries with it a stigma that people should just get over it. It is as real as cancer. He is UNABLE to do certain things right now...not just unwilling. This is the part of the vows that have to do with "in sickness and in health."
He doesn't know she wants to leave. He KNOWS she likes to complain and then do nothing. He also knows, by her actions that she is not in love with him. Imagine how that might make a depressed person feel.
OH has not figured out in her own mind that she wants to be married to him. Inasmuch, this entire issue is being used as a tool to justify walking away.
He needs help. He doesn't need to be abandoned.
I feel for OH. I understand her pain. I also KNOW that she hasn't sat down with him...perhaps with the help of another family member and let him know that he has X amount of time to SEEK help. He also doesn't know that she will be there at the end of this...heck, she doesn't even know. There is already a foot out the door.
Yes, he needs to work on his health. She needs to be supportive of that or go on her way. She gets to set reasonable boundaries and deadlines that should be reviewed with a mental health professional BEFORE presenting them to him.
Cat, imagine that a woman was here complaining that her husband wanted to walk away from her because she couldn't work due to ovarian cancer. What would we say to her??? I KNOW I would be furious for her. OH's husband has a disease that is every bit as debilitating and just as difficult to manage. At the very least, he deserves her best effort and a clearly laid out plan of action.
Just my opinion.
Posted By: Medc

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/08/10 05:41 PM

And Harley is NOT the person to help this man. He needs a LOCAL psychiatrist, one that can prescribe medicine and monitor his progress. Many, many people make the mistake of having their anti-depressants monitored by family doctors. Having sold Zoloft and knowing the potential impact of these drugs, I know this is a bad idea in most cases.
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/08/10 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by Medc
And Harley is NOT the person to help this man. He needs a LOCAL psychiatrist, one that can prescribe medicine and monitor his progress. Many, many people make the mistake of having their anti-depressants monitored by family doctors. Having sold Zoloft and knowing the potential impact of these drugs, I know this is a bad idea in most cases.


Not only is it a terrible idea...that's exactly what he did w/ Prozac many years ago, and it was not a great experience for him and now he's that much more determined NOT to use ADs again.
Posted By: LostHusband

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/08/10 07:13 PM

OH, I'm gonna be honest with ya, I just skimmed your thread and didn't read in great detail. Sorry....lol.... What stuck out to me from the very beginning is your willingness to stay for the kids at the expense of the kids. Now before you get all defensive, hear me out. First off, what are you showing your children on how a marriage/relationship should be? Secondly, while this has you bent, stretched, and stressed to the core, what do you think that's done to your relationship as a mother to your children?

I don't know what the answer is but do know that right now you are crippling those kids IMHO. A couple weeks ago, I had to confront a situation with my 15yo daughter. The hardest part was watching her struggle understanding the punishement her mother (my X wife) dished out when my daughter did EXACTLY what she learned at her house, from her relationship with her BF. My daughter accepts that unacceptable behavior as normal because that's what she sees mom do day in and day out......

And if he's a drunk, get the hell away, I'm a recovering drunk with 6 years sobriety and can tell you during my addiction I could bargain and cheat but didn't understand anything but cold hard consiquences.... Anywho, gotta run just thought I'd throw in some food for thought......
Posted By: catperson

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/08/10 07:25 PM

Note: Please don't take offense, OH. I love you dearly; I'm just frustrated that you're still in the same spot. Maybe I'm so frustrated because I, too, am in the same spot, having let my weaknesses rob me of my cajones.

That said, I agree OH needs to make up her mind and stick to it, and that her inability to be (or fear of being) firm about what she needs is keeping them from reaching any sort of resolution.

I do understand depression as I've been battling it for over 10 years, with the off and on (currently on) help of medication; it's only because of my stubbornness that I am still alive.

I simply disagree that he doesn't understand what's going on. He has a severe issue of wanting to be a big player and being unwilling to be anything but that - most likely out of low self-worth and toxic shame (fear of being found wanting). And the fact that he has been financially supported by OH for over 10 years has allowed him to AVOID the reality that anyone else crippled by depression would have had to face by now.

Which is why I have, over and over, asked her to consider leaving him just SO he can be forced to get the help he needs, if only for financial reasons. She stood up to him once, and as I recall, the one thing she asked of him (which many of us asked her to reconsider) was just to talk to SH. Not to work to get better, not to attend X many therapist visits, not to get on ADs, but just to talk to SH. I'm sure she was hoping that her DH would 'get it' like so many other people seemed to.

So, easy enough. He agreed to it. She'd back down and all he had to do was talk to SH. He did. She backed down. He got what he wanted, which was to get her to leave him alone and keep supporting him so he didn't have to brave the real world.

I'm not saying he was specifically thinking those words. Between his depression and his drinking, probably not a lot of clear thinking going on. But he's on autopilot and does what works for him. As OH knows, only by HER changing at this point, will HE change, out of necessity.

So, if all OH is willing to do is tell him "I'm going to leave you by Dec. 31 if you don't start attending weekly therapy" - I'm fine with that. At least it's a change. He'll never get better without some form of change. At least we can agree on that. smile
Posted By: Medc

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/08/10 10:29 PM

Since he is a stay at home dad, it is very unlikely (unless he is a drunk) that the children would be moving out of the house. OH could also be on the hook for spousal support.

It is not as simple as her leaving and taking the kids.

These things need to be worked out ahead of time.

Cat, I don't know the guy to judge his motivations. I do know he is depressed and do know how that disease is frequently minimized.

BTW, I was thinking a much shorter time frame for her "boundary." I think 30 days would be more than enough.

Any takers on the sick woman? How would we respond to her??? How is this different? Is depression a lesser disease? I know that before I was trained, I would not have given it the weight it deserves.
Posted By: catperson

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/08/10 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by Medc
Since he is a stay at home dad, it is very unlikely (unless he is a drunk) that the children would be moving out of the house. OH could also be on the hook for spousal support.
I seem to recall that OH says that he does actually very LITTLE SAHD activities; she has often complained that she has to work full-time and often two jobs, AND come home and take care of the kids and get them to their appointed rounds.

Quote
These things need to be worked out ahead of time.
She says she has already lined up a place for her and the kids to move to.

Quote
Cat, I don't know the guy to judge his motivations. I do know he is depressed and do know how that disease is frequently minimized.
Not from me, as I am in solidarity with him when it comes to depression. As I said, if I wasn't so stubborn (or fearful of upsetting my DH), I would have been coming home every day and going to straight to sleep. Even now, however, I'm starting to succumb to that.

Quote
BTW, I was thinking a much shorter time frame for her "boundary." I think 30 days would be more than enough.
Works for me.

Quote
Any takers on the sick woman? How would we respond to her??? How is this different? Is depression a lesser disease? I know that before I was trained, I would not have given it the weight it deserves.
It depends on what the sick woman does. Does she expect to be waited on hand and foot or does she try to minimize her impact on people as a general rule? Does she work with the doctors to find ways to minimize the disease's effect on her life and on her role as mother and wife?

My best friend (whose husband was forcibly retired recently due to Agent Orange mental issues) has now been diagnosed with some obscure neurological disorder wherein she is tired and in pain, or has headaches, or low stamina...just a host of issues. On the one hand, I'm very supportive of her and want to help her. On the other hand, she treats her husband like a slave. He cannot leave the house for more than an hour or two because she doesn't want to have to watch the kids. She 'never knows' when she will need to lay down. He does ALL the housework, ALL the cooking, ALL the childrearing except for an occasional mother/daughter fun-type thing she participates in. All the shopping. All the getting kids where they need to go. In the last 2 years, I've seen her for maybe 10 hours total. The rest of the time she is lying in bed resting or napping. He continues to support her unconditionally, but he has literally given up his life. And she has let him. I ask her what she's doing to try to fight the disease, or at least reach some sort of level where she can at least participate in the family, and she just says she's working out a good arrangement of meds.

Now, I love her and totally support her. But after two years of watching her not even feel guilty for what has happened to her family, I'm starting to feel a little...used. For me, for her family, and especially for her husband. He tells me that she's supposed to be exercising, and getting out of bed, and other things to keep the disease from getting worse. But she chooses not to.

Maybe that's why I have such an issue with OH's husband. He COULD address his own issues. Lord knows the two of them have discussed them enough. And his standard response to her is to sling any comment back on her and ream her out because 'he has it worse.'

I know what depression does. Firsthand. I even know what depression and alcohol does firsthand together. But it has never impaired my mind so much that I am not aware of the people around me.

Maybe he IS unaware of the people around him. All the more reason for her to take a stand and effect a change whether he's willing or not.

OH, sorry for TJing, so to speak.
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/09/10 03:08 PM

Ok, this is just a vent. I'm posting it here so I don't go screaming out my front door.

Him: Do you know XYZ? I think they live on such-and-such a street.

ME: No, name does not sound familiar.

HIM; You sure? XYZ, think they live on such-and-such.

ME: No, why.

HIM: No answer

ME: Why?

HIM: I got an email from him, something about a basement remodel. (gets up to look in phone book). Yes, XYZ and his wife ABC on such-and-such.

ME: No, I don't know them.

HIM: I can't place where I know him from.

ME: Football?

HIM: Never mind.

HIM: Maybe it's the job networking group.

ME: And he wants you to look at his basement? That's cool.

Him: Never mind. Don't worry about it. All I wanted to know is if you knew them and you don't so drop it, ok?


***

So this effectively shuts me down. I can't even ask him why he wanted to know if I knew them (maybe he wanted to know if I'd passed along his name, but once I said I didn't know them, it didn't matter?) I just don't like getting shut down like that. If I say anything about it, it starts a fight.

Ok, I know I'm stuck in this horrible situation of my own making. And I know you all are waiting for me to "grow a pair" and do something about it.

I was just posting the above convo because I'm ready to scream at him and I don't want to do it...so I thought I'd vent it here.

Posted By: catperson

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/09/10 03:28 PM

It sounds to me like he asked you because he wanted information to help himself; i.e., to him, you are a...tool. You either make his life better (knowing the guy) or you don't. If you don't, he doesn't want to waste time on you, because it isn't helping him.
Posted By: catperson

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/09/10 03:37 PM

I had a HUGE one with my DH yesterday. Complicated, but the bottom line was that a 3-way tiff between me, him, and this woman we're going into business with ended up with him calling ME and saying 'what did you say to HER? WHY did you call her a liar? etc.'

Now, this woman operates everything in her life by putting people down; calling them liars; telling them they have no value; i.e., putting HERSELF above them. In her mind, she IS above everyone. But 'liar' is one of her favorite words. And she told him I was screaming at her at the 'top of my lungs.' Aside from him of course, I have yelled at exactly one person in my entire life; he knows that.

Anyway, the first thing he does is ask ME what I did to HER? Not defend his wife, but blame his wife and take someone else's side. He even told me I should call her and apologize! I was fuming ALL DAY LONG. I'm always the scapegoat, just like your DH turns everything around on you. Once a ladder fell we were moving, and he pulled his back, and he spent 30 minutes cussing me out for 'never' being there for him, making stupid choices, etc. So basically, I am ALWAYS the one who gets blamed, who gets everything turned on them, who is not respected nor treated with compassion. Sound familiar?

You'd be proud of me, though. We had to meet up later and he saw I was mad and said 'What are you so pissy about?' and I actually told him the truth, rather than avoid it like you and I always do. I told him he insulted me and I didn't like it, and I surely didn't appreciate being told to apologize to the woman. He denied saying it! But then he apologized. One of maybe 5 apologies in 30 years.

So I'm learning to stand up for myself, like we hope you will get to, even in the face of certain hassle.

It DOES feel good, OH!
Posted By: Medc

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/09/10 06:16 PM

OH, it sounds to me like he answered the question. He got an email from them about a job and wanted to know if you knew them.
I don't see why you would be upset at this. What more did you need to know? It sounds like nitpicking to me.
Posted By: Medc

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/09/10 06:17 PM

If you feel the need to run screaming after such an innocuous discussion, I would suggest that your threshold is a wee bit too low.
Posted By: catperson

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/09/10 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by Medc
OH, it sounds to me like he answered the question. He got an email from them about a job and wanted to know if you knew them.
I don't see why you would be upset at this. What more did you need to know? It sounds like nitpicking to me.
I do. Because of responses like this:
Quote
you don't so drop it, ok?

He effectively shuts her out of any type of conversation with him. Any time she tries to talk to him, he gives such responses to shut the lines of communication, which he opens only when it is convenient or beneficial to him.
Posted By: Medc

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/09/10 06:51 PM

His question was about her knowing the people...she didn't. That was what he wanted to know. Frankly, I don't blame him for not wanting to chit-chat with OH right now. She has made it clear that he is a disappointment to her and that she doesn't love him. What is there for him to be chatty about???
And what was unanswered or said? I am missing that from the actual words spoken.
As for "any time" or "only when convenient or beneficial" I thought we were talking about the "incident" from today. Dragging historical problems into the discussion is a sure-fire way to derail ANY chance for a positive encounter.
I responded to what OH stated. She said that her problem with this discussion was that "I can't even ask him why he wanted to know if I knew them"...This WAS clearly answered. IF he had pulled some random person out of the air and said do you know so & so, I would agree....but the fact is, it was explained...he received an email from them about doing work. It is flat out nitpicking...based on what she said about today's discussion.
Posted By: catperson

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/09/10 07:28 PM

Medc, I do understand your viewpoint on all this. But you clearly don't understand hers. Everything you describe is totally logical for a person who shows signs of wanting to engage in a healthy relationship. But when you have spent 10, 20, or 30 years with someone like her husband, or mine, it isn't that simple. Or logical.

You say you communicated with her a lot so you have a better handle on what her husband is going through. Good for you for getting his side. And I'm the first person to tell OH - as she will attest - to get off her butt and change things on her end. But I will posit that you are falling far short of getting 'her' side. You keep telling her that SHE should be putting more effort in, SHE should not be abandoning him due to his illness, SHE should be less touchy.

For a myriad of reasons you nor I are privy to, their relationship is sick. And logical, simple solutions may not be the best solution for OH. Depression or not, he has seriously harmed her.

ETA: This is OH's thread, not mine, so I will stop TJing it.
Posted By: Medc

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/09/10 08:00 PM

I only know his side from what she has told me. I DO understand her side. But I also understand that in order for things to get better OH will need to change her communications with her husband. He is not capable of doing so at this time. She needs to either do the heavy lifting or leave (since we both agree that continuing on the current path is getting both of them no where fast!).
I KNOW HE will need to put more effort in. OH should expect it and deserves it. Heck, she already DESERVES it. But sometimes in life, we don't get what we deserve...when we deserve it.
I KNOW OH is in the RIGHT. I just want her to be happy and to see her marriage survive, if possible. Since she is the ONLY one capable of steering the boat right now, I suggest she grab the rudder or abandon ship.
Logical and simple seem to be in order right now...at least from my perspective. I respect your view and know that we both have OH's best interest at heart.
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/10/10 03:39 PM

Sat down w/ him and went through this month's income/outgo. It is pretty dismal. I kept to the facts though...no editorializing.

Still, he said "do you know how this all makes me feel? I should be the one bringing in the big paycheck...."

I have to admit I just stopped him at that point and said

"I am only interested in the numbers at the moment. Here is outgo, which is larger than income. What plans do you have to help even that out?"

He pitched a hissy fit. I left the room.

However....

I'm not very upset over that!
Posted By: catperson

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/10/10 03:40 PM

Good job!
Posted By: ToBeContinued

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/10/10 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by OurHouse

Still, he said "do you know how this all makes me feel? I should be the one bringing in the big paycheck...."


Last time I checked, creditors don't refrain from issuing bills simply because of how it made the recipients FEEL.......

And, if he wanted to take a stab at, geez I don't know, like maybe putting that budget back in the black -- as opposed to current hue of fire engine red -- he'd bring in ANY paycheck!

Sounds like you handled yourself well.

TBC


Posted By: TACticGAL

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/13/10 01:16 AM

Ugh.

Forgive me for projecting. My 1st H went through a period after he messed up his career and literally could not get hired in that career again. He wouldn't flip burgers (even as a manager) because it was "beneath him". Meanwhile (this was before I was making the $$ I am now) we were some $600 short on the bills every month. I could NOT get him to see how much it was killing me to be thinking about trying to find a 2nd job while I'm having to put my baby in daycare because he wouldn't even watch her, and he's sitting on his rump.

And of course, then I go and marry #2 who has now been failing to contribute anything significant to the finances. frown But at least I'd become self-sufficient to handle everything on my own. Until of course he convinced me to take on further debt on his behalf. frown (Yes, I am an idiot sometimes.)

OH, not trying to t/j, just trying to point out that once they start this nonsense, you lose respect for them. How can you have a marriage where you don't respect your H? I will never understand how a man can live with himself sitting on his rump while his wife is struggling to keep from losing the house. UNACCEPTABLE.

Frankly, if I were you, I'd put it to him point blank that he needs to bring in x$ a month starting THIS MONTH, and you don't care if he sells plasma or prostitutes himself to do it. Give him exactly ONE MONTH to bring in that x$ or he's out the door, whatever legal maneuvering that takes.

Ok, I'm kidding about the prostitution.

Mostly. wink
Posted By: Medc

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/13/10 12:09 PM

Once again, I feel that people are ignoring the very real and very debilitating disease of depression.

Much of the advice being offered here would be great IF this disease was not part of the equation. It is and I guarantee that ANY professional, remotely familiar with depression would STRONGLY advise against such action.

Posted By: TACticGAL

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/13/10 12:48 PM

Medc, you'd be wrong.

I have suffered from depression a good deal of my life. It is not, and should not, be an excuse for p*ss-poor behaviour.

He is blatantly refusing to do *anything* to try and keep this family in the black. They're going to end up losing their home, vehicles, and who knows what else because he won't step up. And when OH tries in every way she knows to talk about her feelings, he treats her abusively.

Alcoholism is also a disease. It is a biological shift in cellular chemistry. Are we to stay with alcoholics who are running the family into the poorhouse, and/or being abusive?

He refuses to seek help for his depression. He refuses to work with OH to improve their marriage and family.

When does **OH** get to be depressed and say "screw it" in re: to her finances and family obligations? Answer: she doesn't, because she doesn't have time or that luxury. Why does *he* have the luxury to wallow in it?
Posted By: Medc

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/13/10 01:02 PM

Alcoholism and depression are entirely different.

It is a REASON for an inability to act and handle business in some cases. You obviously were able to work through your problems. There are many variables that come into play with depression. There are decidedly different levels of depression.

Having been trained to understand depression....having lived through it for a period myself and knowing that pharmacological and talk therapies are often times ineffective, I know that mental health professionals would balk at much of what has been said here. I have a rather unique perspective on this stuff. I worked as a police officer and would at least every other week take a body to the morgue of someone that should have, by the logic being put forth here, just gotten over their depression. I also worked for Pfizer selling Zoloft and inasmuch had to spend a lot of time in training and psychiatrist offices.

I don't base my views on giving her husband a free pass. Anyone that knows me, knows MEDC, gets that I don't hand those out freely. I can be very harsh on people not pulling their weight. In this case, we do not yet know if that is the case.
YOUR history of depression has little to nothing in common with OH's husband until proven otherwise.

OH has the right to say screw it and walk anytime she pleases. I thought the purpose of the thread was to offer help. That is what I am trying to do. I am using experience and knowledge to guide OH in a fashion that I believe to be correct. I am not going to use words that attack her husbands character until it is proven that his lack of motivation is not a result of this terrible disease.
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/13/10 01:14 PM

I had an IC once armchair diagnose him as borderline narcissistic. I might have tossed that one overboard, if not for the fact that she treated him as an IC for a time as well (she was not treating both of us at the same time).

Additional food for thought to which I occasionally return. I really shy away from this diagnosis because the success rate of any kind of a relationship with a narcissist and/or a cure to the disorder, is near zero. But I have to keep it in the back of my mind.
Posted By: Medc

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/13/10 01:23 PM

Was he a patient of hers? If not, I would put little faith in the diagnosis.

OH, one thing to consider. When you decide if YOU want to be married to this man (which you have been on the fence about), I believe that you will start acting towards that end. Your actions ot date have followed your feelings.

OH, did he have an affair? I believe we discussed this on FB...but can't recall.
Posted By: TACticGAL

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/13/10 01:31 PM

OH has said repeatedly that he refuses to see a counselor - either individually or as a couple - and that he refuses adamantly to take any more anti-d's after *one* didn't work. She has also said repeatedly that when she tries to share with him the financial situation, he shuts her down - many times abusively. She has also said that he refuses to take work offered him because it's "beneath him", yet he also refuses to take the load off of her at home.

What more is she supposed to do?

I completely "get it" that depression can be debilitating. That is actually the point I was making. You stated that you feel everyone here is ignoring the very real disease of depression. I was making the point that at least one of us is not ignoring it.

You keep asking what would our advice be if he had cancer or MS or something where he couldn't work, and why this is different. Most people with debilitating cancer or MS actually seek treatment. And are eligible for SSI.

I'm trying to figure out what you're saying she should do, without giving him a free pass.

I'd also like to know on what basis you state that alcoholism and depression are entirely different? Both are physical diseases, the only difference I can see is that alcoholics have the ability to avoid the substance that causes them problems.
Posted By: TACticGAL

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/13/10 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by Medc
OH, one thing to consider. When you decide if YOU want to be married to this man (which you have been on the fence about), I believe that you will start acting towards that end. Your actions ot date have followed your feelings.


This is 100% true. When she decides that she is DONE, things will start changing. But, she is still feeling responsibility for taking care of this man who is incapable by all appearances of taking care of himself. That's not love, and it's not a marriage. It's having a horny teenager on the payroll.

Her original question on this thread wasn't whether or not to stay with him, it was asking what the best way to get out was, without damage to the kids or to him.
Posted By: TACticGAL

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/13/10 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by OurHouse
(...) The purpose of it is to solicit advice on how to break apart a marriage without blowing the individuals in the family (spouses and kids), out of the water.

For the purposes of this thread, please assume that the writer has already made the decision to end the marriage as it currently exists today.

(...)

So as many of you know, husband is not working and has no income. Wife could probably make ends meet on current jobs (FT and PT), and is willing to move to a less expensive living situation (without husband).

I am not sure if it's best to: a) dump his stuff at the curb and change the locks. b) try to work out an equitable but non-legally binding (i.e., no lawyers to pay!) arrangement for the interim c)wait it out 'til 2012 when I will have finished grad school and kid #2 will have finished high school and kid #3 will only be in 6th grade so I can really pick up and move anywhere or d) some other permutation or combination I haven't discovered.


Getting back to your original question:

KIDS: kids are suffering with the sitch as it is now, and it's only getting worse. D isn't good for kids, but sometimes it's better than the alternative.

YOU: You can take care of yourself and your kids. Whatever you choose, make sure it doesn't undermine your well being. You will be fine on your own, no matter how you end it.

HIM: There's no way to do this without causing him pain. Period, end of discussion. If that's your motivation, understand that it's not an option. *He* is not going to decide to leave you. You are the "leaver", he's going to suffer.

As to the options you proposed, I'm going to address them out of order.

c) No way. Asking you to continue bailing water out of this sinking life raft without a shred of support from him either financially or domestically is insane, and that's where you'll end up if you try to play this for 2 more years.

b) No legal papers means he can still ruin you. He can run up debt that you will be responsible for, and there's probably no legal way you can throw him out if he digs his heels in without a legal separation (if they're an option in your state) or D. You're putting your life in his hands if you do this.

a) Probably the best way to handle it, but you can't enforce it without filing some legal papers.

Here's what I would do:

Tell him you're filing for D, and will be asking that the temporary orders include one for him to vacate the home. That he has about 30 days to figure out what he's going to do. Then go file. You can act pro se, at least for the initial filing, if you can't afford an attorney. The documents should be available at your local library or the County Clerk's office. With the kids the age they are, and no property to speak of (you did say there's really no equity in the home, right) there really shouldn't be a reason to take it to court. You should be able to find an attorney who will review the final papers to ensure that the house deed, etc. is transferred properly for an hourly fee.

Bottom line, you need to do 2 things:

1) Figure out why you're staying. If you still love him, and still want to make the M work, then throw all in. If you don't, and you're staying because of guilt over the fact he can't support himself -- BTDT. He's an adult and needs to figure out how to take care of himself, you're NOT his mommy.

2) Figure out what to do about the finances - what would you do if he weren't in the equation? You've said you could live within your means in a smaller place, right? Then **do** it. He's abrogated his part in making the decisions by refusing to discuss it, and refusing to help financially. The kids may have to bunk up, and you may or may not end up taking him with, but you have got to plug the financial hole in your boat.
Posted By: Medc

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/13/10 01:52 PM

Quote
the only difference I can see is that alcoholics have the ability to avoid the substance that causes them problems.


People can make a choice to drink or not. Not all alcoholism is a result of disease. ALL depression is a result of disease. A person is attached to their brain and do not have the choice afforded alcoholics. The distinction is huge.

If you want to know what I think she should do you just need to read the thread...it has been very clearly spelled out.

As for people seeking treatment with cancers...the nature of those diseases do not impact a persons motivation.

People with depression are eligible for SSI. I have suggested that OH press that issue.

This discussion has been going on for quite some time...before this thread on MA.

If OH wants info just on how to leave...here it is. Pack your stuff and go. The courts will decide if the kids stay or go with you. Be prepared to pay support. Simple. Easy. She KNOWS how to leave....her indecision suggest it is deeper than that.
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/13/10 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Medc
Was he a patient of hers? If not, I would put little faith in the diagnosis.

OH, one thing to consider. When you decide if YOU want to be married to this man (which you have been on the fence about), I believe that you will start acting towards that end. Your actions ot date have followed your feelings.

OH, did he have an affair? I believe we discussed this on FB...but can't recall.


Yes. I mentioned that in my post. She did treat him for a time.

Yes, he had an EA with an old girlfriend in 2005/06. Worse, he had never revealed to me the true nature of his relationship with this person, (that they dated...TWICE and the second time was very serious), though I knew the rest of his romantic history. He had just portrayed her as a high school friend. It wasn't until the the A got busted open that all that came out. And the fact that she and he had kept in touch sporadically and never mentioned it to me. (I was able to confirm that claim...it was about 1-2x/year for 15 or so years, then nothing for the 4 years prior to the HS reunion)

He thinks I should just move on already from the EA. I told him I can forgive that, but I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive the dishonesty of leaving out such important info re: their previous relationship. I honestly don't think I would have married him had I known he was still carrying some sort of torch. As was she. She blew back into town the week before our wedding to ask him not to go through with it. (unknown to me) She had been married 4 years by this point.

Posted By: Medc

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/13/10 02:02 PM

Oh, if you truly want to leave...leave. I would strongly suggest getting a lawyer. This will likely get very ugly.

Don't assume that the kids will be staying with you.

Get the advice of an attorney before doing anything.

Posted By: Medc

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/13/10 02:05 PM

Quote
I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive the dishonesty of leaving out such important info re: their previous relationship


And there it is. I don't blame you for this...it is, at least , honest.

THIS is the heart of the issue. It doesn't matter one bit if he gets a job or not. You can't forgive him and resent him for tricking you into marriage. I GET that.

So, put aside all this other silliness and be honest. You are divorcing him because you can't forgive his infidelity. THAT I can understand.

Posted By: TACticGAL

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/13/10 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Medc
Quote
I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive the dishonesty of leaving out such important info re: their previous relationship


And there it is. I don't blame you for this...it is, at least , honest.

THIS is the heart of the issue. It doesn't matter one bit if he gets a job or not. You can't forgive him and resent him for tricking you into marriage. I GET that.

So, put aside all this other silliness and be honest. You are divorcing him because you can't forgive his infidelity. THAT I can understand.


Is it that she can't forgive, or that he hasn't shown her remorse that she can feel is real? He doesn't get to decide when she's "over it", and that attitude is usually of someone who doesn't really think he did anything wrong.
Posted By: JoysDaddy

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/14/10 03:36 AM

Hey OH,

I wondered what happened to you. I thought I might have made you mad and you just up and quit posting for a while.

Glad you're getting some help.

Soooo....

Your H is still drinking???

Are you still going to Al-Anon???

MEDC is right.... you can exit the marriage anytime you want! The funny thing is, you don't even need an excuse!

I have told you in the past that your best solution might be to seperate. Even if you don't file for a divorce you could seperate and get some normality establised away from your alchoholic husband.

Just my .02

Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/14/10 01:20 PM

Hello tst.

I think you can probably figure out what happened to me over there. And you know it wasn't you that made me mad so that I went away. That's actually pretty hard for *anyone* to do. One of my less than complementary characteristics is that I am insanely stubborn. It's probably why I am STILL in this relationship, coming up on 22 years!
Posted By: Vittoria

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/14/10 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Medc
Quote
I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive the dishonesty of leaving out such important info re: their previous relationship


And there it is. I don't blame you for this...it is, at least , honest.

THIS is the heart of the issue. It doesn't matter one bit if he gets a job or not. You can't forgive him and resent him for tricking you into marriage. I GET that.

So, put aside all this other silliness and be honest. You are divorcing him because you can't forgive his infidelity. THAT I can understand.


I believe that this has been the biggest contributor in your struggles.
OH, I lived with this type of gaslighting for only 4 months which made me crazy and it felt like 4 yrs.
I understand how this kind of unfinished business, eats away from the inside out.

5 yrs. is a very long time to not have the answers that you need.

(((((OH)))))

Posted By: NewEveryDay

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/14/10 10:03 PM

OH, I'm so happy for all the insight you are getting here, the insight you have been looking for. How are you feeling? Do you have any light, fun stuff planned? You've got some heavy stuff going on!
Posted By: ToBeContinued

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/14/10 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by OurHouse

He thinks I should just move on already from the EA. I told him I can forgive that, but I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive the dishonesty of leaving out such important info re: their previous relationship. I honestly don't think I would have married him had I known he was still carrying some sort of torch.


OH, it almost seems like the crux of the issue is that you were a victim of bait-and-switch. You thought you were getting one thing, only to find out down the road that the real "purchase" wasn't as nice and sparkly as it appeared in the glossy brochures and fancy ads.

And HE does nothing to alleviate your buyer's remorse. Would it make a difference? I'm not so sure...

What about if he got a job and started making significant domestic contributions? Might help, but I don't think it would ultimately get you want you want.

Why? Because this isn't what you signed up for. And you want what was illustrated in the glossy brochure and anything less will always be nothing but LESS.

I'm not sayin' it's good or bad, but just reality. I used to think the work thing was the heart of the matter, but I'm starting to reevaluate after reading your comments.

Just picture 'The Thinker' by Rodin. That's me right now. Just fully clothed......

TBC


Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/14/10 10:26 PM

Somewhere, somewhere on this forum I think, someone wrote about the perils of having your spouse fall in love with a person they *think* is you, but is really NOT you.

I think there is quite a bit of that going on in my marriage. The entire first year of marriage, "bait and switch" was a term I heard often out of him. So perhaps we both did it. Though in my defense, I don't think I presented anything differently than the person I am. I had a job. I was in graduate school. I was interested in XYandZ things. I loved where I lived.

The things that changed after I got married were...I still had a job, but it was a different one that I hated. I didn't like where I lived (we moved). I wasn't in school anymore. But I was still interested in XYandZ things. Just no time to do them. frown
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/14/10 10:27 PM

I do blame myself for a lot of it though...even though it's in the past and I can't change it. I fell in love with him for all the wrong reasons.
Posted By: ToBeContinued

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/15/10 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by OurHouse
The entire first year of marriage, "bait and switch" was a term I heard often out of him. So perhaps we both did it.


In the FIRST year of marriage? Wow. I didn't realize the issues had that kind of shelf life.

Originally Posted by OurHouse
Though in my defense, I don't think I presented anything differently than the person I am. I had a job. I was in graduate school. I was interested in XYandZ things. I loved where I lived.


Do you think HE would say that the pre-M presentation was similar to the post-M presentation? I'm not sayin' that they WERE different but whether he thought they were -- and in what context...

Originally Posted by OurHouse
The things that changed after I got married were...I still had a job, but it was a different one that I hated. I didn't like where I lived (we moved). I wasn't in school anymore. But I was still interested in XYandZ things. Just no time to do them. frown


So, post-M, you didn't like what you did for a living, or where you lived. You weren't in school anymore, and you couldn't pursue hobbies or interests that you enjoyed due to time constraints. And you were married....

So, if I could wave the magic TBC wand, and teleport you to the place you want to live, and allow you to work in a job that you enjoy, and give you free time to scrapbook, or hunt buffalo, or do whatever interests you, how would that affect your outlook on your M? You would, in essence, just have other aspects of your life that would DISTRACT you from your M -- aspects that aren't present right now.

I'm not sure what my point was, but in case you're wonderin', I don't have a magic wand. If I did, I'd probably use it on myself. (Wow, now THAT didn't exactly come out right.......)

TBC


Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/15/10 12:20 AM

Ok, point very well taken re: the bait and switch. Yes, he sees it that way. He dated a very happy-go-lucky, fun person. He got married to a stressed out, overworked, nut-case who began to suffer from major panic/anxiety disorder and soon could not leave the house without him in tow.

Then I found CBT and some Klonopin. That helped.

Then we moved back up to the PNW. That *really* helped.

Stuff I liked to do before marriage.

1. Dance
2. Play tennis
3. Run/bike/swim...race...etc.
4. School
5. Cook
6. Read
7. Drink wine and enjoy sunsets.


Posted By: catperson

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/15/10 04:28 AM

You can do all that again...by yourself.
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/16/10 12:27 AM

Interesting evening. Parent night at daughter's school. One of her classmates is a girl who moved into our neighborhood over the summer. Parents are divorced. Dad had an affair. So on the way home, we were discussing how, after the classroom portion broke up and the mother was telling me something about something she did that afternoon, another woman came up, interrupted both of us and just started talking about introducing this woman to a friend of hers. Not a big deal in the scheme of things, except that it was downright rude...something I've seen the interrupter do before many times over.

So H was carrying on about that a bit in the car. I decided quite a while ago that some of the women in this town can drive me nuts if I let them, so I don't. Life is too short. I was sharing that with him. Then he asked me something about the first mom's divorce and I said "I think she's still really, really angry about it. Seems the entire town (she moved from another nearby town) knew what was happening and she didn't.

So *that* opened up a conversation about how everyone in "these small towns" (his words) knows everyone's business and everyone in "this town knows all of our business". I didn't say anything right away because I know he somehow blames me for his feeling ostracized, as though no one wants to get close to him because he's chronically unemployed, etc. And he feels the entire town knows about his A. I said that I didn't tell the entire town. He said "you didn't have to. You should know how people operate here; they love to gossip. And you gave them something to gossip about."

ME: No, YOU gave them something to gossip about. I just shared with a few close friends because I needed support.

HIM: Here we go again.

ME: You brought this up. I still deal with this every day. I know you think I should have gotten over it already, but I haven't. I process it and think about it every day.

He didn't say another word to me the rest of the ride home. We stopped by our church to pick up our son who wasn't ready to leave yet. So he took me home, dropped me off and went back to get our son.

I have nothing really to comment about...I'm just passing along an interesting observation. Just as I still haven't processed the A because of his dishonesty, he hasn't forgiven me for exposing. Yet, I really don't think he would do this again. I think this is more about his preoccupation of others' perceptions about him and how he deflects that blame onto me.

A bigger problem than I am capable of solving simply by working the MB program. frown
Posted By: catperson

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/16/10 01:00 AM

Like I like to say about my husband...what an ass.
Posted By: NewEveryDay

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/16/10 03:06 AM

OH, what do you think you were meant to learn from this today?
Posted By: Ace

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/16/10 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by OurHouse
I do blame myself for a lot of it though...even though it's in the past and I can't change it. I fell in love with him for all the wrong reasons.


Hi OH,

I see a few similarities in our situation starting with getting together for all the wrong reasons. For me, I was afraid I'd be left behind....I was alone at 19 and never had had a boyfriend. DH was the first to show attention to me. This sounds hard to believe but I married him without falling in love with him due to my fear of 'becoming an old maid' like my mom had described a little old lady down the street.

This morning I did ask my DH 'after 4 D-Days, why did you choose to change?' He said many things but the most important was that he saw that I meant business and that I did NOT need him. That made him not only want to stay with me but it convinced him to make the 180 degree changes and "do anything to help me heal." H also said that he was the X factor....that his collection of life experiences made him operate the way he did. It most likely would be different for every other guy. FWIW, we had been reading MB books but did not yet know about the forums.

Alcoholism was NOT a part of our scenario. That's where the similarity stops. But the gaslighting and badgering each other for 32 years was nearly as bad. He did get depressed when he was fired from his 30+ year career but he 'found OW' when he was supposed to be looking for jobs online (whlle I was working 3 jobs and caring for his ailing mother.)

Did you ever read my story when you had access to MB? Let me know and it will give me an idea of where to start. Sorry it's so late and I can't write more now but I promise I'll be back.

Ace

ETA: I posted the above late last night before I saw/read your other thread on the other forum. I won't have time to read/reply until the weekend.
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/16/10 01:09 PM

***EDIT****

See blog!
Posted By: NewEveryDay

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/16/10 02:14 PM

OH, have you ever heard about how AAs originally did step 4, and many folks, both AA an Alanon, still do today? Step 4 being done from a resentments list. http://fellowship12.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=51:stepfourcat&id=136:alcoholics-anonymous-resentment-1&Itemid=57 There are more links at the bottom, that go into more detail.

You are doing great at identifying the things that feel out of place for you, the things you don't like, and this is column one. Would you be willing to go further with me here, or find someone IRL you trust? The other columns are (2) where you identify the person doing the thing you resent, (3) identify your response, and (4) ask your HP what you were to learn from this, and take your answer and check it with Him again.

OH, you are already doing to major work, the typing up the whole thing. The other parts are much easier, and I think will help you reset, to understand that in these everyday things, your HP is reaching out to you, helping you find serenity.

What do you think?

Just as an example, for this resentment from this morning, Column 2, the person responsible, is your H, column 3, your reaction, sounds to me like sharing your O&H, keeping an open mind, letting go of the response. Am I close? What do you think column 4, what your HP wants you to learn from this, is?

If you don't want to do this exercise, OH, I totally understand. If you do give it a shot, whether here or on paper at home, the idea is that you will feel a reset, a shot of serenity.

(((OH)))
Posted By: catperson

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/16/10 02:34 PM

That was a great job of being open and honest. I'm proud of you.
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/16/10 02:44 PM

BTW, I forgot to include what he said when he interrupted me. I think it's significant.

I was talking about how we were living day to day, not really communicating our underlying, more intimate feelings about things and I was going to go on to say I don't like or want to live that way, when he interrupted and said "you have no idea just HOW much I don't tell you"

He does this often. When I say I feel terrible about not being able to open up to him, he says "you have no idea HOW much I don't tell you anymore"

When I say I'm sad, upset, lonely, scared, etc., he says "You have no idea how much MORE sad, depressed, lonely, etc., I am than you"

Like I said, it's all a scoreboard!

But I decided a while back that the only scoreboard I will keep is my own. So I focus on that. If he wants to win the "I am more depressed, sad, lonely, etc." than me contest, he's going to have to participate in that one on his own. I'm not playing.

Thinking about that helped me get the conversation right back on track. Well, it wasn't really a conversation, since I was doing all the talking, but you know what I mean!
Posted By: TACticGAL

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/16/10 02:57 PM

Ugh. I'm so sorry you're having to deal with all of this. I think you did a good job of keeping your cool, and telling him how it is. He needs to step up or step out.
Posted By: Medc

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/16/10 03:25 PM

The BOTH need to step up or step out. They take turns leading in this very unhealthy dance.
Posted By: TACticGAL

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/16/10 03:41 PM

You're right, Medc. We overfunctioning women have problems disengaging when someone's dependent on us.
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/16/10 03:52 PM

So our car insurance is set to cancel today unless I/we come up with the remaining $$$ for the year.

I've been waiting for him to collect $$$ owed him for helping out on a painting/carpentry project. Some of the $$$ are outstanding from May.

It's worth about $2K

But..says he: "X is my friend and I understand money is tight for them right now. He's good for the money."

So today I told him unless we have XYZ dollars, we will be uninsured tomorrow.

That turned into a litany of "how do things get like this. I don't understand what's happened. Everywhere I turn, the answer is no. I'll never work in the job that I want again. My heart is in pieces. I've lost you. I've lost all my friends. I've lost everything. I dragged you out of Seattle. It's my fault we lost the house. You live in this house you hate with the kitchen you hate and even though you don't say anything you make it clear. I don't know what else to do. My heart is broken."

Rinse and repeat.

It was all about him.

At one point he said, "I could shower you with diamonds, roses, chocolates, get down on my hands and knees and it wouldn't make a difference."

And I said "I don't want diamonds and roses etc. I want a partner in life with whom I can share deep intimate, emotional feelings. Someone who has my back...emotionally, financially..with the family. Someone who respects me. Someone who listens to me."

He interrupted this with "I listen to you. YOu don't realize that I listen and hear everything you say. But you stopped listening to me a long time ago."

And back into the litany...see above paragraph.

At that point, I just stopped saying anything. Sat here and listened. When he was done, I said "we need to figure out the car insurance today."

Oops. That got him royally ticked off. Said I wasn't listening to him again.

At one point he also threw in there that I will never let him live down the A..he will continue to pay for it over and over...so why bother trying? Or something like that.
Posted By: Medc

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/16/10 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by theantichick
You're right, Medc. We overfunctioning women have problems disengaging when someone's dependent on us.


It has nothing to do with gender.

I'm not sure what you could possibly mean by "overfunctioning." All I see in this situation is dysfunction on both sides of the equation.
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/16/10 04:11 PM

Thanks for the labels MEDC.

I really am not looking for any more of those. I get enough slapped on my by myself and my spouse.

I am not looking for "you should do that, you should do this". I know what I shoulda, coulda, woulda. Don't need to hear more shoulda/coulda/woulda from outside forces.

I should (there's that word again!) probably move this to a blog because that's what it is. I am just putting this out there, more for my own benefit. The last 3-4 postings I've made...if I haven't made it clear, I am really more journaling than anything else.

Probably would be clearer if I put it in a blog.

I'll go create one and move them.
Posted By: Medc

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/16/10 04:19 PM

What would be the labels? I feel your actions AND those of your husband are dysfunctional. Is there a label in that honest assessment?

A blog might be a better idea. It appears as though you are only looking to post gripes about your husband. THAT I can understand. I was under the impression that this site is here to offer help towards recovery...marital or personal.

If you would prefer that I just parrot your concerns back to you...and say, yes, I understand, he is a cad...please make that clear. From this vantage point, you both have a lot of work to do before you have earned the right to break up the home of your children. If you no longer want my advice or observations, please say so. I am taking time out of my day in order to help you see things that you may not want to...or are unable to see.
Posted By: catperson

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/16/10 04:31 PM

OH, I so get it. I was at therapy yesterday, talking about our debt, and she was telling me I was going to have to make the hard decisions and invite DH to participate and, whether he does or not, go ahead and make the changes. Because he flatly refuses to talk to me about money, because he knows he's screwed us over. And it just made me cry when she said that, because I don't WANT to have to be the one doing all this. I WANT a DH who will do the hard work, not hide from it. I want a DH who protects his family. Granted, he's working, in a job he hates, so I shouldn't complain. I guess I just grieve for the relationship I want. Like you.
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/16/10 04:49 PM

***EDIT****

See blog!
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/16/10 04:53 PM

I'm starting a blog and moving all my comments over there. I just wanted everyone to know up top here so they wouldn't feel I just X'd out my comments, took my marbles and went home.

ETA: I can't cut my earlier posts, because the time has expired (mods feel free...I moved them all over to my blog). But anything I can cut, I will, to encourage readership over there, rather than here.

smile
Posted By: MyRevelation

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/16/10 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by Medc
What would be the labels? I feel your actions AND those of your husband are dysfunctional. Is there a label in that honest assessment?

A blog might be a better idea. It appears as though you are only looking to post gripes about your husband. THAT I can understand. I was under the impression that this site is here to offer help towards recovery...marital or personal.

If you would prefer that I just parrot your concerns back to you...and say, yes, I understand, he is a cad...please make that clear. From this vantage point, you both have a lot of work to do before you have earned the right to break up the home of your children. If you no longer want my advice or observations, please say so. I am taking time out of my day in order to help you see things that you may not want to...or are unable to see.


OH,

MEDC asked me to check in on this thread to see if I could offer some perspective ... although I'm not sure why, since I mainly confine my postings to BH/WW scenarios.

I've read most of this thread and some of your blog and I suppose I see things basically as MEDC does also. Please understand that my approach is often blunt ... not to be cruel ... its just the way I write and speak in person. I deal primarily in problem/conflict resolution and have found that being politically correct is often misinterpreted, so I am forced to speak and write plainly to avoid confusion.

Honestly, I have no idea why you remain married ... neither of you appear happy or fulfilled ... unless it is to continue punishing you BOTH for your equally bad choices. MEDC is much more child oriented than I, and he sees value in keeping a stable home for the children ... whereas I lean more towards it being better on the children to have two relatively sane and seperate parents, than existing in the middle of a toxic union.

I have known women, and a couple of men, who just seem to crave negativity ... so attracted to misery, that if it is absent, they CREATE it. I get the impression that you are like a cat ... just waiting for your H to say or do anything you can pounce on and twist into DRAMA ... and in turn, he just wants to retreat into a shell of isolationism. Then you get the opportunity to commiserate with other like minded women and feed off of each other. Its a vicious circle of attack and retreat and rehash, then rinse and repeat.

So while I may have made some observations ... I don't have any answers ... as you seem to be exactly where you want to be or you would change and if this has been going on in one form or another for 22 years ... I don't see much hope for "change". You are simply living your life as you CHOOSE to live it.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/19/10 04:07 AM

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Posted By: OurHouse

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/19/10 02:55 PM

The name of this site is Marriage Advocacy. I can still advocate for marriage while deciding to end my own. I am obviously on the fence, or I would have cut bait a long time ago.

1. He had an emotional affair 5 years ago.

2. Yes, he says he loves me. I'm the one unable to return that statement at the moment.

3. Part of this is the job thing. It's ongoing, stressful and way more complicated than just the fact that he has no job.
Posted By: Ace

Re: How to deconstruct a marriage. - 09/21/10 02:27 AM

Hey OH,

Your struggle as to whether to save your M or not is the same that most BS's have to endure...you've had to endure a bit longer than most but it's helpful to see your perspective.

I think it's very wise to contemplate HOW you would proceed if/when you decide NOT to save your M. IMVHO all BS's would benefit from getting help with all aspects of Plan D before they pull the plug.

Like I promised, I am working on getting my similar story over to my blog soon. Sorry for the delay.

Ace
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