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Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust.
#60842
01/29/11 01:17 AM
01/29/11 01:17 AM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908 Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle
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My greatest discovery was my Map of Relationships. And it's simply a road map. On the other hand I haven't discovered anything like it and everyone you meet is somewhere on it. Where are you? It started with a map that is common to Imago Relationships Therapy. Then I built on it to include all the paths that are possible, deleted a bunch of stuff and added some great stuff, I think they miss. Then I taught it for 4 years, modified it, and finally created it in glorious color - on a camp table in Glacier National Park in the fall of 2000. I've been examining and teaching it ever since. Nothing seems as simple and complete. If you speak to me, I immediately start to place your problems in context, on the Map. Actually when I read what you write, I tentatively do the same thing. At one point I was gonna make a DVD of this Map. I created a script, narrated it and then .... well. It never went further. Here is the Map in color and also the script in full. You can even download the narration, tho it costs some pennies. Read it. Figure out where you are and where you want to go. Then consider what you will have to do. And get on with it. Some of you have already found this map. Here is a place to discuss it.
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it! Al Turtle
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Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust.
[Re: NewEveryDay]
#61085
01/29/11 06:12 PM
01/29/11 06:12 PM
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Posts: 908 Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle
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Dear NewEveryDay, I think you have the idea of the Map. For me, and probably admin of Marriage Advocates, it provides a diagnostic tool for assessing where people are in their journey to achieve a great relationship. The replaces any kind of "one size fits all" tool. For me and everyone, it provides a tool to see where I am, what I have been going through, what my choices are and what I have to focus on next. Because of it's form, it also gives everyone a clue about where their partner has been, what's been going on in their past, what their choices are, and what they have to do next. You can say that one phrase, "I guess I am in the Divorce phase," and the tool provides me with a whole lot of tentative information about you - and about your partner. Tentative information can lead to questions, curiosity and of course lots of Validation. I really like people in the Divorce phase. Take your time.
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it! Al Turtle
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Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust.
[Re: AntigoneRisen]
#61507
01/30/11 06:02 PM
01/30/11 06:02 PM
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Posts: 908 Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle
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My guess is that you are both at the Choice Point, facing Door #1, Door#2, or Door #3. Your partner could be with you or still in the Power Struggle or Inside Door #2. (I don't have a Divorce Point in the Map cuz I think Divorce is an event not a place.) I think most people who come to MA (or MB or wherever) are at the Choice Point. Hope of "things getting better" has decreased over time and is now hovering around zero. Frustration of not knowing what to do to make things better is probably very high. A sense that "nothing works" is present - cuz nothing you do works. This is a position of action (decision making), but if you hang around here for long, it is probably cuz you tend to be fairly passive - waiting for others to make the decision to do something. Your choices are to Door #3, split. Or Door #2, give up and just survive - Lizard active all the time. Or Door #1, learn a whole pile of new stuff - stuff, skills, ideas that you currently don't know. Tis a tough place. Been there. I fear that the longer you wait to make a decision, the more you tend to be sliding into Door #2 - which I sometimes call the Land of the Passive. You can live there forever. My guess is that you are here at Marriage Advocates, precisely because you don't want either Door #2 or Door #3. I, personally, am all about Door #1.
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it! Al Turtle
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Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust.
[Re: Rich57]
#61538
01/30/11 07:10 PM
01/30/11 07:10 PM
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Posts: 908 Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle
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Well my wife is at the divorce stage and I am in the University of Life Stage, freezing and submitting. She is depressed and wants a divorce. I am frozen trying to figure out how to move or not, unable to pull her out of her depression. I do not believe in what she wants but don't have too many choices. I would put you both in the Choice Point. (The Map is good for this.) If I hear you right, you wanna go through Door #1, but can't do that without a partner. She's thinking that everything is hopeless and is dreaming that a divorce is the only way to go. Some more information, which you have, would clarify the situation - a bit. Did you both arrive here after just a Power Struggle or have you both been in Door #2 for a while? The Map suggests, either way, that things are heading in a better direction. From her point of view, divorcing the relationship you've had between you is a really good idea. Also I don't believe she would be thinking of divorce if she believed you were in the University of Life. My guess is that she doesn't. My guess is that she thinks you are stuck and won't change. Well, since you say you are there at the University of Life, all you have to do is prove it to her. It may take her a time to see that your intentions are more than just skin deep. (By the way, one of the skills you may learn in the UofLife is about Boundaries as they relate to depression. The principle is that you can never "pull" someone out of depression. They have to do that. Depression is their choice - consciously or unconsciously. Trying to pull them may encourage/enable them to stay there longer.) You've got a lot of potential here. Tis up to you. Good luck. (I hope you and others see how useful the Map is at looking at this situation. Tis just my guesses at the moment based on what Rich57 has written, but look how much information is available via the Map. Rich can clarify some, but more he can test out where he is by taking action.)
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it! Al Turtle
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Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust.
[Re: AlTurtle]
#61637
01/30/11 11:45 PM
01/30/11 11:45 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,287 PEEKSKILL NY
Rich57
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[Some more information, which you have, would clarify the situation - a bit. Did you both arrive here after just a Power Struggle or have you both been in Door #2 for a while? It seems like you have nailed it AL, from what you described is exactly the sich. I guess we have been at door #2 for a year and a half. My wife blames me for her depression, unconsciously, she will not admit to depression, although she has all the signs. I am not really pulling her, she is really on her own about that. Rich can clarify some, but more he can test out where he is by taking action. What action could you suggest?
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Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust.
[Re: AlTurtle]
#62676
02/01/11 05:46 PM
02/01/11 05:46 PM
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Posts: 908 Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle
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So now do some thinking/writing exercises to make your Relationship Journey real. Start with the MAP of Relationships.
ROMANTIC PHASE Use the map to put dates on when you first fell in love, each time. Remember the rule of six months to define a relationship. Put the name of your partner on that date.
Look at the joy you felt during those times and savour it. Look at how strong those feelings were and give a little effort to defining what you thought/dreamed the future was going to be like.
POWER STRUGGLE Now put dates on when the fights started - the Power Struggles.
Look at your tactics and your partner's. List them. Don't analyze the whys, just write down the whats. Consider where you learned your tactics. Who in your family used those same or similar tactics? Who were the teachers?
Also who taught your partner their tactics?
And for one bit of a twist, who in your family taught you to profoundly dislike your partner's tactics? to profoundly want someone like that to change and become "nicer."
Lastly, can you see how those fights were misguided attempts of get Love back into your relationship? Try some sentences of the form "When I yelled at him, what I was really trying was to get him to notice me." Or "When I was quiet, I just wanted us to be peaceful together." Or "When I did what she wanted, I just wanted her to be happy." I think true love is so close to us during the Power Struggle, but seems so far away.
CHOICE POINT Now consider how this all ended, the fighting, each time. The treats of being together reach high peaks. Exhaustion is high. Well, you've been putting a lot of energy into tactics that don't work.
DOOR #1 Some try for marriage counseling. Some read books. Some show up here - online. I think of this as a wise foretaste of the way to Vintage Love. All about learning to do things better. The people who dig in and learn like crazy seem the lucky ones.
DOOR #3 - Divorce The most common is that people just walk away - Door #3. Remember the Six Month rule cuz probably most people "divorce" who have never been technically/legally married. I still call it Divorce.
People say, "It shouldn't be this hard." They blame each other. They run.
This walking away really hurts. The only way to avoid the tearing wretching pain of this splitting up, is to find a new partner immediately.
Since most people are divorcing in order to avoid the conflict of the Power Struggle, most people experience this as a delicious quiet time that over many years becomes a too quiet time. Some people get "lonely" sooner and some later. But it will come.
Tell your stories.
DOOR #2 If you didn't walk away, the most common is Door #2. Both people shift into business with survival and give up the wonder of the Love of each other. Men often go to their prime addiction - work. Women often go to their prime addiction - children. Whatever, the distance grows on both sides and compared to Romantic Love and the dream, this is a period of walking dead. Can last for years and years.
What was your style of surviving? What was your partner's? Look for lots of Lizard behaviors and look for signs of depression and illness. Learn your patterns and your partner's.
Now look for what events brought you out of this walking-death. Falling in love with an outsider - affairs, are often a clue to waking up. An explosion of temper enough to bring the cops sometimes does it. Just learning and reawakening to what you have left behind (love) may do it.
Mind you it is possible that your partner wakes up first. I think many of you online you call that other person the Betraying Spouse or Walk Away Partner or some such derogatory labels. But I think you guys are completely missing the point.
Waking up is good!
Whatever works as a wake up call for you, and people often wake up many times before going back to sleep, people arrive back at the Choice Point.
UNIVERSITY OF LIFE On the other side of Door #1 is a lengthy period of working and stumbling together to learn how to make an ideal relationship and to unlearn all the skills you have that suck.
Sandra and I stumbled through this. Some books helped. Some teachers helped. Individual therapy helped, too. But being really stubborn and determined was the most helpful thing. And the awareness of a tiny glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. A tiny sense that things were a bit better than yesterday. A humble awareness that I was not as stupid as I was last time I faced this situation.
Also there is a sense of "We fixed this and now that other thing comes up." Kind of like pealing an onion, one layer at a time. What layer are you pealing? What layer is behind you?
I've seen a lot of stories. Each is fun or painful depending on where you are. Your stories are yours and really only need to be shared with each other. But we can encourage our friends.
Enjoy your story.
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it! Al Turtle
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Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust.
[Re: TACticGAL]
#62767
02/01/11 07:20 PM
02/01/11 07:20 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,381 TX
CajunRose
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STBXH and I were in a power struggle for a long time. We hit a choice point 5 years ago and went through Door #1. But we never made it all the way to the University of Life - we applied some bandaids, stopped peeling the onion, and ended up back in the power struggle last year. I don't know if I would have woken up if he hadn't left - I was (willfully?) blind to what was missing - I guess I had essentially chosen Door #2. So I am glad to have been shaken awake, to finally understand that it's a lot easier to get "vintage love" than it appeared. Glad to know that there's more out there - to get AND to give - than crumbs. Once I woke up (again), I tried to choose Door #1, because this time I was determined to get to through the University of Life and into vintage love - I'm inhaling books, websites, and other reference material on what makes good relationships - teaching myself the skills I will need to be a good romantic partner. STBXH chose Door #3, and since for now we're pretty tethered together, that's the one I get too. That's one of the hardest things to deal with - having your eyes opened, seeing where the door that you want is located and learning the steps to get there and then having someone else slam it shut and lock it. Sometime next year I may be ready to start looking to find the romantic phase again...and this time I have a much better idea of where the doors are located and how to get to the one I want. And that, I suppose, is as much success as I can hope for right now. I've been really grateful for this perspective: Mind you it is possible that your partner wakes up first. I think many of you online you call that other person the Betraying Spouse or Walk Away Partner or some such derogatory labels. But I think you guys are completely missing the point.
Waking up is good!
ETA: The angry and hurt part of me wants to think of STBXH in the derogatory terms - he's a coward, a quitter, a selfish man. So I keep reading your work and remind myself that he's hurting too. That he doesn't ever want to go back to what we had - and that NEITHER DO I. The biggest differences between us, I think, are hope and perspective. I am trying to see his perspective, to understand why he did what he did and why I did what I did, and I can see hope for change. He's not trying or not able to see my perspective, and he doesn't have any hope left.
Last edited by CajunRose; 02/01/11 07:25 PM.
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Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust.
[Re: CajunRose]
#62828
02/01/11 08:24 PM
02/01/11 08:24 PM
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Posts: 908 Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle
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Great bit of thinking and sharing, CajunRose. Sometime next year I may be ready to start looking to find the romantic phase again...and this time I have a much better idea of where the doors are located and how to get to the one I want. And that, I suppose, is as much success as I can hope for right now.
I've been really grateful for this perspective: That is all I have and am sharing - a perspective. Mind you it is possible that your partner wakes up first. I think many of you online you call that other person the Betraying Spouse or Walk Away Partner or some such derogatory labels. But I think you guys are completely missing the point.Waking up is good! ETA: The angry and hurt part of me wants to think of STBXH in the derogatory terms - he's a coward, a quitter, a selfish man. So I keep reading your work and remind myself that he's hurting too. In our culture, I believe you can vent anger at people who "deserve it." We used to call this a "guilt-free hostility object." Thus people with lots of anger are often needing to point at how bad other people are. Tis nice to unload all that anger. I recall the seductive power of Hitler - the Jews deserve it. The Japs deserve it. The Krauts deserve it. The Commies deserve it. All men.... All women... The teens... the Democrats... the Teapartiers... the Muslims, etc.etc. Gad, turn on Rush Limbaugh or his like and watch the core of fascism at its glorious best. He makes lots of money giving people reasons to fight and villify. And this isn't new. Find it in the old world, in the Bible, etc. Being surrounded by this tone, watch how people online love to pile on. And yet, "You are told to love your neighbor, but I say love your enemy." Jesus was cool, and right in your face. And, needless to say, right on for relationship issues. I've found it simple to say that "people always marry their worst nightmare." It is always a temptation for me, when angry, to villify Sandra. Remembering that she is doing her best at every second, keeps me out of that camp. Back to your quote. I wonder, when your STBXH is looking like "a coward, a quitter, a selfish man," who he really is. That he doesn't ever want to go back to what we had - and that NEITHER DO I. No comment. The biggest differences between us, I think, are hope and perspective. I am trying to see his perspective, to understand why he did what he did and why I did what I did, and I can see hope for change. He's not trying or not able to see my perspective, and he doesn't have any hope left. I wonder how hopeless he sees the task to understand you. Hmmm. By the way, one glorious piece of wisdom of the map, tis much cheaper to fix the relationship with the "dork" you have than to find another one and then have to fix it.
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it! Al Turtle
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Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust.
[Re: Rich57]
#62965
02/01/11 11:15 PM
02/01/11 11:15 PM
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Posts: 908 Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle
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By the way, one glorious piece of wisdom of the map, tis much cheaper to fix the relationship with the "dork" you have than to find another one and then have to fix it. Totally agree to this but both parties have to do their share. CR can want to fix her 50% but she can't fix his 50%. Or did I miss something? I thought the same thing for quite some years and then found that it's not true. I've written on this. It takes only one to make a marriage, two to make a divorce. The title is kinda catchy and seems crazy, but not so much. The way I see it, both want Vintage Love. It is programmed into their soul/biology by someone pretty potent. They arrive at the Choice Point frustrated as hell, still wanting Vintage Love, but having lost "Hope" that they can ever get it - their partner will never change and grow up. If one starts to actually move toward Vintage Love, in a significant way, the other now has hope, and will join as the "day follows the night follows the day." Sure it takes two. But the trick is to do your part when your partner is stumbling or forgetting. If you yell at them or threaten them when they stumble, you are no where near heading toward Vintage Love. Neither if you submit to their clumsiness will you be on your way. All you have to do is lead, not push. During the University of Life, sometimes one is leading, sometimes the other. And for bits of time both are forgetting altogether. Those are kinda bumpy times. This is what appeared to me as a surprise and a pleasant one. I missed it completely for years.
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it! Al Turtle
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Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust.
[Re: AlTurtle]
#63303
02/02/11 05:12 AM
02/02/11 05:12 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,381 TX
CajunRose
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Back to your quote. I wonder, when your STBXH is looking like "a coward, a quitter, a selfish man," who he really is. When I'm being objective and honest? I think he's a hurt, confused, lonely man who is just as mad at me as I am at him. He's still the man I fell in love with ... the man who still loves me (throughout all of this he's said repeatedly that he doesn't WANT me, but has never said he doesn't love me - and I've asked)... but he is lashing out because he hasn't learned yet that we should stop doing the stuff that doesn't work, and causing more pain doesn't work. I've lost count of the number of times I've read that article on "one to make a marriage, two to make a divorce". Every time I get more out of it, and most of the actions I've taken in the last 4 weeks or so have been inspired by/drawn from this article and its companions. I'm doing my best to lead. It seems harder to do when you are already separated. I wonder how hopeless he sees the task to understand you. Hmmm. I think right now he's totally confused, which was my goal.  He can no longer predict with accuracy how I'll react, and he's gradually gaining some insight into why I did some of the things I did (I'm feeding that to him very slowly). In the last month we've had a few interactions where I thought for sure his lizard would go bonkers yet I didn't see any external signs of stress. (I've gotten good at identifying the "OMG, SHE'S AT IT AGAIN" look, which is an indicator of how bad things were.) Hopefully that means I'm getting "safer", that I'm becoming more successful at implementing some of the skills I'm trying to master. I've seen a few glimmers of interest/response from STBXH for some of the seeds I've sown, but so far he has not been motivated to follow through. It's like he moves one step towards me, realizes what he's done, and scurries back again. Which means I have to find the precarious balance between pushing and leading/strategic kick in the rear. I'm probably erring too far on the not-pushing side, but I pushed way too hard a few months ago, and his lizard needs to heal from that trauma. I think I have a time issue right now. Divorce here is relatively quick, and we're on the home stretch. Although, when I told my IC last week that I expect the divorce to be final in 4 weeks, she laughed and told me that I said the same thing 4 weeks ago...and now, a week later, we haven't made much progress, so I'll once again predict 4 weeks from now. This may mean I'm no longer pushing him further away. Whether he decides to come closer is another story, and I think he's been much too hurt to actually stop the divorce at this point. His lizard will likely need more time to feel that I am safe again. So the bigger question for me is whether, after it's all final, I can get over that hurt and keep leading - and whether he'll be responsive once he has his "freedom" - or whether I give up and start over. Thanks, Al. I keep repeating myself, but I do truly appreciate your perspective. Combining this with the books I've found that speak to our particular problems has been invaluable to me in figuring out how to cope and what knowledge I need to pursue, so that eventually I get to vintage love.
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Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust.
[Re: CajunRose]
#63475
02/02/11 04:08 PM
02/02/11 04:08 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908 Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle
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While you are working at the "leading" bit, I encourage you to remember that he has to make it to Vintage Love along with you. While you look at your journey ahead, you can spend a bit of time thinking of his.
You might lead the way into discussions about "what would our relationship look like if it were perfect to both of us."
As you use the term, I think, "hurt" refers to loss: things, people, dreams that you have lost. Life is full of losses and thus I think people need to be good at grieving those losses - kinda a mix of validating the loss and actual grieving. I think that everytime it rains, nature reminds us of how much we need to grieve. I mechanistically think of grieving as "metabolizing loss."
Keep plugging away and sharing with others. Remember that you are leading others, too.
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it! Al Turtle
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