Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 4 guests, and 31 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
 Trending Topics(Posts)
1.Ask Amy's very bad advice on affairs1
2.The Joke Thread1
3.Financial counselor says communication is key when mixing money and marriage - Grand Forks Herald0
4.Daughter says father made ominous threats if his wife sought a divorce - Portland Press Herald0
5.A Straight Spouse Of A Gay Husband Speaks Out0
6.Rise Above Past Relationship Failures - Psychology Today0
7.Toxic Relationship dynamics0
8.Women Who Don't Orgasm - Psychology Today0
9.Highspire man tried to kill wife in car crash after marriage counseling session went south, police say0
10.6 Ways to Recreate, Not Just Salvage, Your Relationship - Psychology Today0
*By replies in last 2 weeks.
In The Media(Posts)
Woman urges NC lawmakers to end child marriage: For her it was a ‘life sentence’3
COVID-19 and the Increased Likelihood of Affairs3
Does anyone remember this story?3
Validation to find-win-win slutions2
Things men want4
These Are The Signs You're Dating A Narcissist3
Girlfriend's 'controlling' list of 22 rules for boyfriend goes viral: 'She sounds crazy'9
What Divorced Men Wish They Had Done Differently In Their Marriages7
Alienation of Affection / Criminal Conversation9
Would you pay your ex a 'break-up fee'? - BBC3
more >>
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) #51633
01/15/11 05:41 PM
01/15/11 05:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,027
O
OurHouse Offline OP
Member
OurHouse  Offline OP
Member
O
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,027
I copied these from Flick's blog for Belle in another forum. Believer thought they could be helpful here. Please feel free to post comments/additions/suggestions.

And thank you Flick, for posting these on your blog.

Extraordinary Precautions:

a) I am responsible to protect my wife at all times.
b) I will give full access of all my business records to my wife.
c) I will agree to give all passwords, account codes business and personal to my wife.
d) I will not put myself in an advice giver role with another woman, unless my wife is present and has given her prior approval.
e) I will defer to my wife as the advice giver when it involves another woman, unless she specifically calls on me.
f) I will not spend any time alone with another woman with out the approval of my wife.
g) I will not share my problems or concerns with another woman.
h) I will not share my infirmities with another woman.
i) I will openly share my daily schedule with my wife.
j) At any time she requests, I will trade cell phones with my wife for the time she deems necessary.
k) I will allow only men to provide individual counselling
l) I will always defer to my wife regarding any outside activity and will agree to eliminate any activity she feels is interfering in our relationship or the relationships of our children.
m) I will not travel out of town for business or personal reasons without making frequent contact with my wife AND her enthusiastic agreement.
n) When travelling without my wife, or a member of the church, I must stay at least 100 kilometres away from OW place of residence.
o) I will not go to the store where the OW and I used to work without my wife
p) If the OW makes contact with me I will immediately inform my wife and show her all text messages, emails etc.
q) If I start to have feelings for another woman, despite these precautions, I will immediately tell my wife.
r) I will return home after work and not stop off to visit people on the way home.
s) I will not install or operate messaging type programmes on the computer in my radio shack.
t) If at any time my wife desires it, I will enable GPS tracking of my cell phone.




Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: OurHouse] #51657
01/15/11 06:52 PM
01/15/11 06:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
Member
herfuturesbright  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
These are good. Also DH and I have an agreement that we will both be enthusiastic about each other's FB friends. No old flames, and if he feels uncomfortable about a friend, I will remove them.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: OurHouse] #52706
01/17/11 03:20 PM
01/17/11 03:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19
Under a crescent moon
G
GoldenYears Offline
New Member
GoldenYears  Offline
New Member
G
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19
Under a crescent moon
Almost two years ago, I shared this or a similar list with my FWH. He immediately used this list to create his own EPs. Thank the good Lord, that he believes in them and continues to abide by them.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: GoldenYears] #54732
01/20/11 06:41 AM
01/20/11 06:41 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,569
New Zealand
Lil Offline

Member
Lil  Offline

Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,569
New Zealand
Originally Posted By: Dr Harley
Extraordinary Precautions to Avoid A Former Lover

To help you totally separate from your lover, and avoid the temptation to see him when you crave him the most, I suggest the following extraordinary precautions:

1. Honesty

The first extraordinary precaution to avoid your lover is to tell your husband all about your affair, and the decision you have made to restore your love for him. Then promise to keep telling him the truth about every aspect of your life, so you never again have a secret second life where you are tempted to hurt him behind his back.

Honesty and openness is one of the best ways to prevent yourself from being inconsiderate of your husband's feelings. It was your friend's threat to reveal all to your husband that motivated you to separate from your lover. Your friend wanted to shed to light of day on the things you were doing in secret to protect your husband. But you should do it yourself. Go right to your husband with the facts. If you had been honest about your budding relationship with your lover from the beginning, it would never have developed into an affair.

You may be afraid that once your husband knows the facts about your ongoing affair, he will leave you. Quite frankly, I think he has the right to make that decision. If, faced with the facts he decides to divorce you, you lose your option to restore your relationship with your him. But you simply cannot build a relationship on lies and deception. Dishonesty will never get you to your goal of loving your husband again. So it's better to get all of the cards out on the table now and build your marriage the right way, even if there is a chance that your husband will throw in the towel before you have a chance to reconcile.

Another reason you may be reluctant to tell your husband the truth is that he might have a violent reaction to what you have done. If you are afraid of his reaction, separate from him first, and then tell him the truth in a public place or with friends who can protect you. If your husband cannot control his temper once he knows the facts, then I see no hope of saving your marriage. Honesty is so important in marriage that if the threat of violence prevents honesty, I don't believe you will ever have a good marriage.

Besides, dishonesty does not prevent violence in marriage, it encourages it. If your honesty brings out violence in your husband, your dishonesty would enrage him even more, once he discovers that you've lied to him.

If you think your husband may divorce you or become violent when you are honest with him, I encourage you to be honest anyway, before you begin your plan for reconciliation. If he cannot accept the truth, no plan of reconciliation will work.

2. Account for Your Time.

Once you have established a willingness to be completely honest with your husband, then continue to be honest with him about all of your activities. Make sure he knows about everything you do throughout the day. Give him a complete schedule of your activities, and let him know which of those activities make you most tempted to contact your former lover. Try to avoid people and places that increase your craving to be with him.

3. Spend As Much of Your Time with Your Husband as Possible.

During withdrawal, there is not much your husband can do to deposit love units into your Love Bank. But it still makes sense for you to be together as much as possible. That's because the more you are with him, the less you will be tempted to contact your lover. Try to have lunch together, talk on the telephone several times a day, and be sure to spend evenings and weekends together.

In many cases, I have suggested that a husband and wife go on a three-week vacation together during the first few weeks of withdrawal, just to help the wayward spouse avoid contacting the former lover. I tell these couples not to expect too many love units to be deposited, but by getting away from the reminders of the lover, they find that such a vacation greatly reduces the time it takes for withdrawal. Besides, the distractions of a vacation can often compensate for the depression that accompanies withdrawal, and makes the experience much less painful.

Sometimes a wayward spouse feels like getting away from everyone during withdrawal, and going on the vacation alone. But it doesn't work. It's too tempting to call the lover, and in many cases the lover ends up joining the wayward spouse.

If you go with your husband on this vacation, you will not feel like being very romantic with him. He should expect very little from you, because you will be recovering from your addiction to your lover. It's only after the craving for your lover subsides, and your depression lifts that you will be able to give your husband the opportunity to deposit all the love units it takes for you to be in love with him again.

Of course, your husband must be very careful to avoid making matters worse by saying and doing anything that would upset you. Granted, he may not be very happy about your affair, but if he wants you to love him again, he must avoid withdrawing love units at all costs. He must be with you as much as possible, yet avoid anger, disrespect and demands, which are all Love Busters. He must also be careful to take your feelings into account whenever you make decisions.

If you slip, and contact your lover in spite of the extraordinary precautions you take, tell you husband about it immediately. Then, improve your extraordinary precautions to include the condition that caused the slip. Keep improving them until it becomes virtually impossible for you to contact your lover. A slip will set you back emotionally, but it does not mean that your recovery plan has been ruined. It simply needs an upgrade.

In many cases, I have encouraged couples to relocate to a different part of the country to avoid contact with a lover. It's a good example of an extraordinary precaution upgrade, when it became apparent that contact with a lover could not be avoided when living in the same city. It goes without saying that when lovers are fellow employees, a job change is absolutely essential to marital recovery. How is total separation from a former lover possible when you work together?

You asked if you should avoid using the internet, since it reminds you of your lover, and tempts you to contact him. I'm sure you can anticipate my answer. I suggest that you stay away from the internet until you are through withdrawal, and you have restored your love to your husband again. Then, I think it would be safe for you to return to it again.


Original article here


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Lil] #105686
05/13/11 10:39 PM
05/13/11 10:39 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 72
New Zealand
Flick Offline
Member
Flick  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 72
New Zealand
It has been some time since this topic was started and I thought it was time it got a bump to the top of the pile again.

EP's are a great tool for preserving your marriage, or to help rebuild it.

They are not a golden bullet that will guarantee instant success. Like all of the tools that are available to improve your marriage, this one works best in combination with others. A tradesman's tool box always contains more than one tool and it is the same with marriage tools.

So how do you prepare your own list of EPs??

Simple answer, you sit down and figure out what you need to do, or not do, to make your spouse feel completely safe in your marriage. If you have been doing a disappearing act, and been unable to sufficiently account for your time you could have an EP that says you will always be contactable. You could also have one that says you will carry a GPS type thing that will show where you are at all times.
The EPs do not all need to be so draconian.
In my case one of the EPs simply involved not going to a particular shop without my wife, not a big hardship.

Now it has just occurred to me that the meaning of Extraordinary Precautions may not be as clear as it could be. The word extraordinary is not (in my mind) a single word, it is two words EXTRA ORDINARY.
So the extra ordinary precautions are precautions that are EXTRA to the ORDINARY or to put it another way they are beyond being ordinary, that means they are special.

Finally I want to say that the EPs can be changed. As you get further and further into your new recovered marriage and circumstances change then the EPs can change. They can be removed, added to, relaxed or strengthened.
Yes they can seem like you are being grounded or restricted because of bad behaviour, and if you are being honest then that is exactly what is happening, but it is all for the best.


Been there, done that, wish I'd just stayed home.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Flick] #107220
05/17/11 05:18 PM
05/17/11 05:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,211
SunnyD Offline
Member
SunnyD  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,211
It's good to remember that you need to revisit these things as you get to different stages within recovery!

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Flick] #107414
05/17/11 10:23 PM
05/17/11 10:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
L
LadyGrey Offline
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
Originally Posted By: Flick

Yes they can seem like you are being grounded or restricted because of bad behaviour, and if you are being honest then that is exactly what is happening, but it is all for the best.


Nice to see someone call a spade a spade. Of COURSE some EP's are a mechanism for punishment and control. First time I have seen any one admit it though.

I'm curious what "for the best" means - who's best?


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #107455
05/17/11 11:33 PM
05/17/11 11:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,791
Surface of the sun
silentlucidity Offline
Member
silentlucidity  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,791
Surface of the sun
Quote:
who's best?


I would think it's best not for a WHO but for a WHAT...the marriage.

I have EP's. I have never cheated, but having been in a marriage where infidelity existed, it makes sense to me not to hedge my bets and err on the safe side. That's me. My fiance agrees, to an extent, and has seen how not having EPs causes our relationship harm, causes me harm, causes him harm.

My experience only. Learning from my own mistakes. EPs, to me, are about me caring for myself, and my SO...both, not one or the other. It's not about being caged, it's about protecting what I cherish. There are EPs I have in place that I don't even talk about. I just DO them.

If YOU are making your own list, who is punishing you?

Last edited by silentlucidity; 05/17/11 11:43 PM.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: silentlucidity] #107523
05/18/11 02:31 AM
05/18/11 02:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
L
LadyGrey Offline
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
Originally Posted By: silentlucidity
Quote:
who's best?


I would think it's best not for a WHO but for a WHAT...the marriage.

I have EP's. I have never cheated, but having been in a marriage where infidelity existed, it makes sense to me not to hedge my bets and err on the safe side. That's me. My fiance agrees, to an extent, and has seen how not having EPs causes our relationship harm, causes me harm, causes him harm.

My experience only. Learning from my own mistakes. EPs, to me, are about me caring for myself, and my SO...both, not one or the other. It's not about being caged, it's about protecting what I cherish. There are EPs I have in place that I don't even talk about. I just DO them.

If YOU are making your own list, who is punishing you?


I like the theory.

The fact is that EP's are routinely thrust upon the unfaithful spouse as a threat.

Fact and theory collide.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #107544
05/18/11 02:59 AM
05/18/11 02:59 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,791
Surface of the sun
silentlucidity Offline
Member
silentlucidity  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,791
Surface of the sun
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
The fact is that EP's are routinely thrust upon the unfaithful spouse as a threat


At Marriage Advocates?

It's a theory in practice in my life.
We each have our own perspective.

I can't see how EPs could be used against me, if I'm the one who made the list, freely, choosing what to do to protect. These are MY choices. If one is coerced and somehow forced into EPs, I can't see how they have a chance to last. IMO, the person making the list has to care to protect themselves and their spouse.

Anything done half-heartedly will eventually fail, from my experience.






Last edited by silentlucidity; 05/18/11 03:00 AM.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: silentlucidity] #107563
05/18/11 03:25 AM
05/18/11 03:25 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
L
LadyGrey Offline
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
Originally Posted By: silentlucidity
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
The fact is that EP's are routinely thrust upon the unfaithful spouse as a threat


At Marriage Advocates?

It's a theory in practice in my life.
We each have our own perspective.

I can't see how EPs could be used against me, if I'm the one who made the list, freely, choosing what to do to protect. These are MY choices. If one is coerced and somehow forced into EPs, I can't see how they have a chance to last. IMO, the person making the list has to care to protect themselves and their spouse.

Anything done half-heartedly will eventually fail, from my experience.


I'm getting seriously annoyed with the disingenuous press that now it is Marriage Advocates, and all the stuff that came before goes "poof" so if someone brings up a concept that was shoved down our throats, well, didn't happen here, so what are you so twisted up about?

It is its own sort of gas lighting -- you KNOW what I am saying, but you gloss over it because it serves some purpose, for you, for the site, or who knows what.

Either that or I am nuts, and in typing that I started crying. Because maybe I am.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #107584
05/18/11 04:26 AM
05/18/11 04:26 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,222
L
LivingWell Offline
Member
LivingWell  Offline
Member
L
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,222
I don't think you're nuts, LadyG. hug

I would like for anyone who needs to deal with anything affair-related to be able to do so......no matter what it is.

But when dealing with the aftermath of what I think is atrocious behavior from those at other sites, I would like to see it stated as such so that those who are not familiar with the other site(s) do not think that it happened here at MA.

My personal opinion is that there are posters here (not you, of course) who are intentionally trying to be confusing.....as opposed to being confused themselves.....so that others will think that MA was the cause instead of the the place where people are finding recovery and healing.

The only way I can think of to thwart those efforts is for it to be clearly stated that it didn't originate here even if we don't name the site(s) in which it did originate.

LadyG, I hope that you continue posting about these issues......so that you, and others who will come later from that other site, will recover in every way that you want to....and in every that you deserve, even if you don't think that you want to. smile


Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LivingWell] #107627
05/18/11 08:43 AM
05/18/11 08:43 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,569
New Zealand
Lil Offline

Member
Lil  Offline

Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,569
New Zealand
LadyGrey,

Flick is away for a few days - climbing 1103 steps to raise money for a charity he supports.

I did read out your concerns and comments. He'll reply when he gets back (I hope) In short he says:

"EP are to protect your marriage. I voluntarily gave up certain privileges in order to make my wife feel safe, and want to take the risk of recovery with me. Had I abused a privilege such as alcohol, medication, or the internet (porn) I would expect that until such time as I either proved I wouldn't abuse those privileges, or POJA'd WITH my DW for their restoration, that I would lose the right to them. Different addiction, same outcome."

As far as <place that will not be named> and EP's being given out as a form of punishment there, possibly. Frankly, I didn't need to punish my DH, he did a pretty good job of doing it himself. As time has gone on, I have noted he still does from time to time. Personally, as a FBW I am more interested in having a wonderful and recovered marriage, than a grovelling whipping boy under my thumb.


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Lil] #107638
05/18/11 11:34 AM
05/18/11 11:34 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
Member
herfuturesbright  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
My EP's are still EP's. The things I did strictly out of panicked guilt or because someone legalistic told me to have fallen by the wayside. And I don't feel one bit badly about that. Just like my faith. I still believe in Jesus Christ, but I do have an occasional Margarita and my DD will be allowed to go to the prom.

It's actually a very very very fitting parallel in many ways. Because just like all the "rational" Christians I know are fine with that or at least know it's none of their business.....so are the "rational" marriage people. smile

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: herfuturesbright] #107655
05/18/11 12:47 PM
05/18/11 12:47 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,027
O
OurHouse Offline OP
Member
OurHouse  Offline OP
Member
O
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,027
I don't see EPs as a threat. I think at (the other place), they were portrayed as such...but once again, I think Harley's words were taken out of context there.

I see EPs as something the couple embraces in their marriage as a sign of respect for the marriage and the other partner. And I believe it goes both ways. I never cheated, but that doesn't mean I can disappear for hours on end and not tell my husband where I am...common courtesy dictates I let him know when I've been held up somewhere, or if plans change suddenly.

EPs should exist as part of any marriage, as a couple's investment in the marriage. The difference is that, when one spouse cheats, the other one doesn't feel safe for a time; there's a lack of trust and a fear it will happen again. So if the cheating spouse truly wants to make a go of it, he/she will allow the betrayed spouse to set the parameters for EPs. And those EPs should be things that help the BS feel safe in the marriage, NOT a hammer to swing over the WS' head.

LdG, it might be different in your marriage, but perhaps it is time to sit down with your husband and try to work out some POJA on this? Define how each of you perceives EPs and determine that each of you want to protect the marriage, and work from there?

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: OurHouse] #107675
05/18/11 01:17 PM
05/18/11 01:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
L
LadyGrey Offline
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
To be clear, my husband was uninterested in the concept of EPs. The two that I have are self imposed and I'm comfortable with them.

I don't view voluntary giving him my whereabouts or access to phone & email as EP's. To me, that's just being polite.

I was simply observing that I have seen EP's suggested that are to my mind clearly punitive in nature, like, for example, a post nuptial which I qillexplain when I get to that topic.

EPs are not a personal issue though.

Last edited by LadyGrey; 05/18/11 04:34 PM. Reason: I can't type on a phone.

Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #107734
05/18/11 03:18 PM
05/18/11 03:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,791
Surface of the sun
silentlucidity Offline
Member
silentlucidity  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,791
Surface of the sun
LadyGrey, I was serious about my question. If this is happening at Marriage Advocates, if EPs are being forced upon the unfaithful spouse, how is that going to work, in the end? I would love to go to those posts and point out how this tactic will fail the marriage, in the end.

I don't understand what seems like your hostility against a concept that you openly state YOU instituted in your marriage. I've seen you state over and over again how YOU chose them, yet you seem angry that others may choose to do it. I'm confused, is all.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: silentlucidity] #107768
05/18/11 04:20 PM
05/18/11 04:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
L
LadyGrey Offline
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
Originally Posted By: silentlucidity
LadyGrey, I was serious about my question. If this is happening at Marriage Advocates, if EPs are being forced upon the unfaithful spouse, how is that going to work, in the end? I would love to go to those posts and point out how this tactic will fail the marriage, in the end.


I have not seen that, nor have I seen a marriage recovered to the point that EP's become an issue.

As far as I know, at this time this is a theoretical discussion on MA. I anticipate that the list will be approximately the same.

Quote:
I don't understand what seems like your hostility against a concept that you openly state YOU instituted in your marriage. I've seen you state over and over again how YOU chose them, yet you seem angry that others may choose to do it. I'm confused, is all.


I can see how that could be confusing.

I am not hostile to the concept of consensual as opposed to coercive EPs. If someone is freely choosing a course of action, that is one thing. If they are coerced, badgered or emotionally blackmailed, that pisses me off.

So those things I choose to do fall into a different category in my mind than coercive, controlling behavior which can take many forms where the proferred tool is used to induce feelings of guilt and anxiety.

When you are playing a man down, you can't lose sight of the importance of defending your goal.

A hammer can drive a nail or bludgeon someone to death. The hammer is still a good tool to have.

Last edited by LadyGrey; 05/18/11 04:30 PM.

Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #107798
05/18/11 05:18 PM
05/18/11 05:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,791
Surface of the sun
silentlucidity Offline
Member
silentlucidity  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,791
Surface of the sun
Thanks for clearing that up, LadyGrey.

Quote:
If they are coerced, badgered or emotionally blackmailed, that pisses me off.


Even when we do choose something to help our marriage, our spouse, ourselves, it may not stick; coercion increases the likelihood of failure.

Quote:
controlling behavior which can take many forms where the proferred tool is used to induce feelings of guilt and anxiety.


For me, the more I did to try to change, the more distant my xh became. I have wondered if his guilt was eating him alive, and I was making things worse by trying so hard. I will never know, and I'm merely speculating, but the guilt served to harm us, not help. I don't know how to alleviate someone else's guilt, other than by not adding to it.



Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: silentlucidity] #108168
05/19/11 12:50 PM
05/19/11 12:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,737
Vittoria Offline
Member
Vittoria  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,737
I think EP's are brilliant.

After infidelity is discovered or confessed, both parties are whirling as to how to fix this, how do we get to where we want to be. A BS has absolutely no faith in what a WS says they will do and the WS realizes this. EP's offer actions, they are visible and measurable, things that a BS is more likely to see as a genuine attempt at protecting the M and the BS.

"I'm sorry, I won't hurt you again." ...... doesn't cut it in the case of adultery.
Protecting the BS and the M from further damage is critical in rebuilding a new and stronger M. EP's can help to do just that.

To a BS they offer a sense of willingness from the WS to do their part in protecting the M from further damage.
To a WS they offer a plan as to how they can do that.

EP's fall into requirements for R ..... NC with the AP and putting conditions in place to ensure this NC like changing cell phone #'s, email accounts.
Transparency/ honesty and eliminating independent behaviour are mandatory since the lack of these allowed the A to happen.

EP's are both common and specific. Common as in what I mentioned above and specific as to places or people that lent a hand for the A to begin and continue.
We added to our list that certain geographical areas are out of bounds unless we are with each other and there is a friend of my H's that he does not travel with alone.
Although my H wanted R, early on in this process he did see some of the EP's as punishment. His independent lifestyle was being infringed upon and he didn't like it.
As R progressed, his attitude shifted from his perception of loss to one of this is best for the M, best for Vitt, and the M outweighs my restrictions.
I know this cuz we've talked about it.

If the goal of the WS is R, EP's are viewed as a gesture towards R, part of making amends for the damage done and steps toward rebuilding the M.
Setting EPs out as requirements for R is essential for both spouses wanting R, I don't see it as coercive at all and I've never read about it anywhere as such. If my H would not have agreed to enforcing EP's, I would have been crazy out of mind about a continued A or a new one forming.

Like SL pointed out that she has her own EP's, so do I.

*edited to clarify more of what I meant in one sentence above*













26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #108174
05/19/11 01:05 PM
05/19/11 01:05 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,737
Vittoria Offline
Member
Vittoria  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,737
Originally Posted By: LdG
If they are coerced, badgered or emotionally blackmailed, that pisses me off.

This sounds like you have actually witnessed this, otherwise since you have adopted some EP's of your own what reason would you have to even mention this.

I strongly believe in EP's as a means of helping a BS to feel safe in a very unsafe situation. I believe they make a huge difference in recovering a M from adultery.

I'd really hate to think that a WS reading this thread would get the impression that EP's are not essential or helpful to R.
LdG, if you could provide some examples where you've seen this happen, we could then figure out how those EP's could be presented in a better fashion.


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #108191
05/19/11 02:39 PM
05/19/11 02:39 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,073
SW Chicago 'burbs
Mark1952 Offline
Board of Directors
Mark1952  Offline
Board of Directors
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,073
SW Chicago 'burbs
Let's back up and look at EPs in a different light for a minute.

The term Extraordinary Precautions suggests two things at its root if we separate it from infidelity and our personal experiences. It appears to be something beyond ordinary, that is, more than what is typical, "normal" or considered standard by most. It also suggests measures being taken as a form of protection from something.

Since I seem to be full of analogies, I of course have one for this...

When the average automobile traveled across the roadways at speeds approaching 15 miles per hour, accidents were rare. Yet in the year that Ohio had two paved roadways that intersected at one point and there were two cars owned and operated by residents of the state, those two cars collided at that intersection. Neither driver was seriously injured and since cars in those days cost hundreds of dollars rather than thousands, the monetary cost was minimal by today's standards.

As speeds increased and racing began to push the limits of both the drivers and the machines, accidents became more common and injury or death became a very real possibility. At first simple helmets were used and soon became mandatory in various forms of racing. The speeds continued to increase and injury became more likely in an accident and soon people were being ejected from their cars at fairly high rates of speed. The helmet was no longer sufficient to protect the drivers and so before long seat belts became common practice.

Today, in our average street cars, we have seat belts, crumple zones that absorb the energy of a crash and things like air bags to protect the driver from impacts against the steering column in the event of a crash. At just 55 MPH into a solid obstruction with little to no yield of its own, the force on the driver is about equal to launching yourself off of an eight story building and landing face first on the pavement below, about 8 Gs.

Now back to those race cars...

Even with efforts to slow them down by limiting engine displacement, intake area, down-force and the like, speeds at Indianapolis are likely to be around 200 MPH or higher. Because of the way these cars are designed, the drivers will not lift from the gas pedal in the corners and will be running wide open throttle all the way around the track. Any reduction in speed will be simply the result of tire slip angle as the cars go through the corners. Seat belts won't help much when you hit the wall at 230 miles per hour.

So helmets and seat belts have become custom molded racing seats, carbon fiber tubs meant to prevent penetration into the driver compartment, helmets that will withstand a 20mm round at 100 yards with little more damage than scuffing the finish. All of these things have evolved over time and the record shows that as more safety precautions have come to pass, safety for race car drivers has improved and seldom does a driver die any more and accidents that seem impossible to survive actually result in the driver walking away under his own power once the pieces stop flying and what's left of the car has stopped careening along the pavement.

For years, a device was available that prevented the driver's head from leaving his body or snapping his neck in a head on crash. Remember that 8 Gs from a 55 MPH crash? At 190 MPH the head of a driver inside its 6 pound helmet can weigh several thousand pounds for an instant as the car thuds to a stop. This is what killed Dale Earnhardt at Daytona a few years ago.

Suddenly, everyone was talking about the HANS (Head and Neck Support) device. As safe as cars had been to race for so many years, that one instance of all events leading to a single crash showed the drivers, the sanctioning bodies, the designers, owners and everyone involved that something more was required. The HANS device was available the day DE died. In fact, some of the drivers in the race and at least one involved in the crash that took his life were wearing the device.

Drivers knew of the HANS device before it became mandatory. Most tried it. They found it to be too restrictive. It limited their ability to rotate their head to see what was around them, made it harder to enter and exit the car, took longer to get strapped in and longer to get out in case of a fire, which is the biggest fear for most drivers, being trapped with no way to get out as the car turns into an inferno. Today, they have no choice. The device is mandated in most forms of racing where speeds exceed about 140 MPH.

Other things have been done as well since that day in Daytona. The concrete and steel walls at most high speed tracks have been replaced by a double wall with blocks of foam in between to absorb the energy of the impact when a car hits the barrier. This causes the energy to be expended in crushing the foam instead of being transmitted to the driver. Deceleration occurs over a longer period of time and so the force delivered to the driver is reduced.

For years, few people wore seat belts when they drove on the streets. Too restrictive, they would say. Or they had stories to relate in which people they knew or more likely FoaFs (friend of a friend) would have died if they had been wearing one. Even now, many refuse to wear them. They are uncomfortable for most, take time to fool with when in a hurry and are a general pain in the butt...

And they save hundreds of lives every year.

As weaknesses in the safety equipment have been exposed, usually by way of a serious accident that left someone seriously injured, disabled or dead, racing has become safer than ever before because safety measures beyond the typical, normal, day to day safety equipment used in cars for the street have been put into place. Accidents seldom result in injury or death but even now racing is a dangerous sport. Most people can't drive 230 MPH and so never get the chance. For those who do it for a living, its the extraordinary precautions that keep them alive.

Once we know of a weakness in our own safety precautions we have to face the fact that we need to enact something more to keep us safe. For drivers, all the things available for protection do them no good unless they use them. The driver pulls his belts tight. He buckles his helmet into place. He wears several layers of fire retardant clothing including extra socks, long underwear, gloves and a hood inside a car where temperatures in mid-summer can approach 150 degrees F. It's uncomfortable, annoying, slows you down and is a real pain in the butt...

It isn't just marriages wracked by an affair that need EPs. We all need to put them into place in our every day lives. Most people might be able to go to work every day and not end up sleeping with their secretary. If a guy sleeps with his secretary, the typical protocols to prevent that clearly aren't enough. In order to prevent himself from crossing that line, he might need to do more than what the average guy would do. He needs to do something extraordinary.

EPs aren't things imposed upon us by our spouse. Those are restrictions and while right after an affair has been divulged some of that is going to happen, that isn't what EPs are about. EPs are not ways we give our spouse to control us, they are ways we return the control to ourselves. They are things we do beyond what our friends are doing in order to prevent us from crossing that line. They need to be based on identified weaknesses and must eliminate or protect against situations in which those weaknesses are exposed.

Frank Pittman talks about driving along in his vintage Jaguar. It pulls to the left a bit, but all it requires to overcome is a gentle resting of the hand on the wheel. Relaxing that grip or losing sight of having to keep that hand in place could result in finding himself in oncoming traffic with deadly results for himself or others. Losing concentration is all that it takes to have an accident and when we lose sight of our own limitations, weaknesses and fail to identify changes in those things we can accidentally rip our family apart.

Last week in our little hamlet, a mother was on her way home with two of her children. One, a 7 month old was strapped into a car seat in the center of the SUV. Her 4 year old was strapped into a booster in the back seat of the vehicle. She was less than 4 blocks from home when she lost concentration for a moment. She might have been distracted by the kids or the radio or something else in her life. She was wearing her seat belt. She had air bags. She was driving one of the safer vehicles available today. When she turned in front of the tractor trailer headed East bound on US 6, the impact crushed her SUV against a light pole as if it were an empty beer can being stomped on by a 240 pound linebacker.

Neighbors rescued her children from the car before EMS even got there. One of them described making eye contact with her in the rear view mirror, covering her child's eyes with his hand and watching her breath her last breath. The paper said she died instantly. It was really more like a minute or two after the crash. She was using all the typical, normal, day to day safety equipment available to everyone. She just forgot to see if anyone was coming before trying top make a left turn.

The stop light where it happened has been there less than two years. When her house was built, it was out in the country. Today it is surrounded by businesses, schools, many more houses and probably 100 times the traffic. What was once safe enough just doesn't work any more.

Sometimes typical and normal precautions are not enough. Sometimes we have to do more than what everyone else does (if everyone else is jumping off the roof, does that mean you should?) Once we know where our limitations and weaknesses are, it is the extra stuff we do beyond what everyone else does that keeps us from having that accident.

If you drive 200 MPH you need more than seat belts and air bags to stay safe. If your situation places you at risk in ways others are not, you need to do things they might never have to consider. The reality is, most of them will have a wreck one day themselves. Accidents don't require choices to occur, simply momentary lapses in concentration and it doesn't even have to be your own lapse. Once you identify a weakness you need to protect it, just like you might protect a sore arm or leg.

Mark


mark1952.ma@gmail.com

I Was Thinking...

The secret to having a good marriage is to understand that marriage must be total, it must be permanent, and it must be equal.-- Frank Pittman
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Mark1952] #108234
05/19/11 04:04 PM
05/19/11 04:04 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
L
LadyGrey Offline
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
I'd really hate to think that a WS reading this thread would get the impression that EP's are not essential or helpful to R.


I certainly didn't mean to suggest this -- I believe EP's are essential for both spouses, and different EP's serve each spouse.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
LdG, if you could provide some examples where you've seen this happen


My life.

Quote:
we could then figure out how those EP's could be presented in a better fashion.


I think this is the challenge. Certainly, for me I had a hard time getting past the punitive tone. VERY hard time. I also had a hard time getting past the idea that my autonomy was going to be restricted. VERY hard time.

Once I understood that I was making the choice to do things differently in the future, I was able to embrace the concept -- I was pre-deciding how I was going to handle certain fact patterns before they ever came up.

So, for example, one of MY EP's is that I will not be alone with a member of the opposite sex within a certain age range, period, not even a 5 minute car ride. When a fact pattern presented that had that element, I had already decided how to handle it and declined to participate. There was no decision tree -- or, more accurately, the tree had one branch, and that was "no".

I love my EP's -- all two of them -- because they keep my husband, my marriage, and myself safe from my own worst self.

However, my husband doesn't like the "never be alone with a member of the opposite sex" EP, and got pretty upset when I told him about it. My IC and I worked out that he felt threatened by it -- that he sees it as I have so little self control and respect for him that I have to go to extremes to keep myself from hooking up.

So you see, they can be misinterpreted or misunderstood. It was not my intent to harm my husband by adopting that EP -- it was my intent to make him feel safe and keep us safe -- yet he was frightened by it.

Part of my problem as I sit here today is that I went a little overboard on the making him feel safe thing. It may be that the sacrifices I have made over the last 10 months -- and make no mistake, I feel them as sacrifices -- will inure to our benefit over the long term as they created a safe space in which my husband can heal. I may look back and think "wow, that REALLY sucked, but boy am I glad I did it." That is my hope.

I do think though that to the extent EP's restrict or eliminate contact with third parties (not the AP of course) that it is incumbent upon the faithful spouse to fill the gap by providing conversation and social interaction, or being open to the unfaithful spouse engaging in activities to find new friends. That has a big issue for me -- I ended several close friendships in an effort to make him feel safe, and feel somewhat emotionally blackmailed from trying to make new friendships. We don't have couple friends anymore. And I don't make friends easily -- I've always been one who had two or maybe three close friends. It has been very lonely.

That said, our life has been seriously weird for about four years -- hopefully we can approach something resembling normalcy over the next year or so. My big challenge at this point is to make him feel safe when he is traveling as he will begin doing in the next month or so. The only thing I have come up with that I haven't already done is to put ALL of my stuff on my ICal so he can look and say "oh, she's getting her hair cut -- that's why her car is at that address and she isn't answering the phone."

Originally Posted By: Mark1952
Once you identify a weakness you need to protect it, just like you might protect a sore arm or leg.


Exactly. It's like text messaging and driving -- everyone thinks they are the exception as far as I can tell. They think they are better drivers or since they don't do it very often it is safe or they have texted so much they aren't really dividing their attention (remember, I have a 22 and 20 year old so I've heard it all).

A driver who has never had a wreck may just decide not to text and drive. A driver who has had a wreck may need to keep the phone in the back seat or trunk to ensure they don't succumb to the temptation - to indulge in "just this once -- I'm at a red light" thinking. Sure keeping the phone in the trunk might be a pain, but it protects the person and the other drivers from the worst impulses of the texting driver.

Last edited by LadyGrey; 05/19/11 04:31 PM.

Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #108307
05/19/11 06:40 PM
05/19/11 06:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
Member
herfuturesbright  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
The EP's that have been suggested to me in places other than MA that had behind them the motive of helping my M were wonderful.

The recent "and yet you display such a wayward mindset....interesting" illuminating remark I received at another site (and yes, I paraphrased)....was not helpful, or appreciated. Not will it be repeated because I will not allow it.

If one would like a WS to learn, then one must learn to be a teacher and not an XXX.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: herfuturesbright] #108392
05/19/11 08:56 PM
05/19/11 08:56 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,569
New Zealand
Lil Offline

Member
Lil  Offline

Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,569
New Zealand
When Flick wrote his Ep's, they were based mainly on those of a FWH from MB. We talked about and tweaked them to suit our situation. For the first 12 months or so we adhered pretty firmly to them. I think I used them as a way of judging just how serious he was about protecting me.

I wrote some EP's for myself and told him. He indicated he not only did not want to see them, he was not interested in them. I did not cheat, ergo I didnt need EP's. I thought the idea was crazy then, still do in fact. While I might not need a written down list, I think it is good for each spouse to have some way of gauging - even subconsciously - that things are not quite right.

BTW I asked Flick the other night if he wanted to see them and he again said no. He even agreed the 100% level of trust he has in me is dangerous. Sometimes I feel somewhat uncared for by that level of disinterest.

Last edited by lildoggie; 05/20/11 01:05 AM. Reason: daughters computer couldnt spell

AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Chrysalis, Fiddler 

Newest Members
Love_Smacked, starfire, JoyfulMimi, bruers, shattered72
2048 Registered Users
Latest Topics(Posts)
Hearts Blessing5
Woman urges NC lawmakers to end child marriage: For her it was a ‘life sentence’3
63 Marriage Facts1
COVID-19 and the Increased Likelihood of Affairs3
Updates Divorce Stats4
no more rainbow members?9
BR - The Art of War - Sun Tzu5
Questions & Answers About Marriage---responses from 7-10 year old kids4
seeing new members on mobile version5
Return of the Goddess31
Community Information
2048Members
1Penalty Box
6Suspended

42

Forums
8500Topics
463397Posts
 
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1
(Release build 20180111)
Page Time: 0.027s Queries: 15 (0.005s) Memory: 3.4168 MB (Peak: 3.8358 MB) Zlib enabled in php.ini Server Time: 2021-12-04 14:20:56 UTC