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Combated Gaslighting #444686
01/28/20 05:30 PM
01/28/20 05:30 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
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Monterey, CA
Fiddler Offline OP
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For anyone experiencing gaslighting in their relationship, here is an insightful article about how one journalist was able to effectively deal with it in an interviewee.

How A Journalist Masterfully Combated Gaslighting

The lessons that can be applied to a relationship experiencing gaslighting:
  • Don’t Let Them Set The Agenda
  • Stay Calm No Matter What
  • Find The Time to Ask
  • Don’t Let Them Talk Over You
  • Present Facts Repeatedly
  • Ask Them For Proof
  • Don’t Let Them Play The Martyr
  • Call Out Lies


IMPORTANT: This isn't about politics, but gaslighting! Whether you agree or disagree with the current administration, there are important lessons here.

Last edited by Fiddler; 01/28/20 05:30 PM.

"Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know that one is me."
Re: Combated Gaslighting [Re: Fiddler] #444687
01/28/20 08:40 PM
01/28/20 08:40 PM
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Thanks Fiddler this is so good!


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: Combated Gaslighting [Re: Fiddler] #444693
01/29/20 12:34 AM
01/29/20 12:34 AM
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Blair Offline
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Nice!

Re: Combated Gaslighting [Re: Fiddler] #444716
01/30/20 03:38 PM
01/30/20 03:38 PM
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SmilingWife Offline
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I love MLK and I love this article.

Re: Combated Gaslighting [Re: Fiddler] #444717
01/30/20 07:15 PM
01/30/20 07:15 PM
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Orchid2 Offline
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Fiddler,

Thanks for this article. Me thinks it s/b also posted on the I&A forum as well. wink

I actually listened to most of that interview and am familiar with ML Kelly. Listen to her often on HPR (aka: NPR out here).

Gaslighting happens in many areas. Having been on the receiving end of a lot of it when dealing with 2 WS and a few others who thought it was cute to act like one shows how explosive it can be.

Now I ask a deeper question on the influence of this style. You think that Mr. P (the explosive one) was always this way or has become this way bu association? For me when I see this type of conduct, there are 2 general categories, those who are always like this (gaslighters) and those who become gaslighters. Unless you know a person, it is hard to tell which category they fall under but there is more hope for the later than the lifer gaslighter folks.

Next is how do we individually handle such folks because most of the public lets the GL (gaslighter) get away with it and that only exacerbates the situation and leaving a trail of damage, some with permanent scars.

There seems to be a growing trend of these GLs in the making and the place where many of them are being cranked out are coming from one very noticeable area. So much so that even journalists (whose job it is to cover that location) are finally getting smarter on how they do their jobs because of this GL epidemic.

I have long said that GL and other actions similar to what the WS handbook teaches happens both in A and non-A situations. That's why what is unfolding on a national level is so scary, more than most know.

In the non-A situations, it can escalate and really get out of control. Oh wait, it's already doing that.
eek

Thanks for the article. smile

jmo,
Orchid


Orchid
Re: Combated Gaslighting [Re: Fiddler] #444718
01/30/20 07:17 PM
01/30/20 07:17 PM
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Orchid2 Offline
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Fiddler,

Thanks for this article. Me thinks it s/b also posted on the I&A forum as well. wink That list you gave is a good list of the tool we can use to stay focused:

The lessons that can be applied to a relationship experiencing gaslighting:
Don’t Let Them Set The Agenda
Stay Calm No Matter What
Find The Time to Ask
Don’t Let Them Talk Over You
Present Facts Repeatedly
Ask Them For Proof
Don’t Let Them Play The Martyr
Call Out Lies

I actually listened to most of that interview and am familiar with ML Kelly. Listen to her often on HPR (aka: NPR out here).

Gaslighting happens in many areas. Having been on the receiving end of a lot of it when dealing with 2 WS and a few others who thought it was cute to act like one shows how explosive it can be.

Now I ask a deeper question on the influence of this style. You think that Mr. P (the explosive one) was always this way or has become this way bu association? For me when I see this type of conduct, there are 2 general categories, those who are always like this (gaslighters) and those who become gaslighters. Unless you know a person, it is hard to tell which category they fall under but there is more hope for the later than the lifer gaslighter folks.

Next is how do we individually handle such folks because most of the public lets the GL (gaslighter) get away with it and that only exacerbates the situation and leaving a trail of damage, some with permanent scars.

There seems to be a growing trend of these GLs in the making and the place where many of them are being cranked out are coming from one very noticeable area. So much so that even journalists (whose job it is to cover that location) are finally getting smarter on how they do their jobs because of this GL epidemic.

I have long said that GL and other actions similar to what the WS handbook teaches happens both in A and non-A situations. That's why what is unfolding on a national level is so scary, more than most know.

In the non-A situations, it can escalate and really get out of control. Oh wait, it's already doing that. eek

Thanks for the article. thumbsup

jmo,
Orchid

Last edited by Orchid2; 01/30/20 07:18 PM.

Orchid
Re: Combated Gaslighting [Re: Fiddler] #444733
01/31/20 05:28 PM
01/31/20 05:28 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,208
Monterey, CA
Fiddler Offline OP
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What I find so powerful about these recommendations is how they only rely on my boundaries and not what may or may not be going on for the other person. If the gaslighting behavior is the same, then (for me) it doesn't matter what the intent might be. It is also irrelevant as to how or why the gaslighter got that way; the behavior and its impact on my boundaries is all I can control.

In all relationships, conflict of some kind is inevitable. According to Gottman, about 70% of all marital conflicts are actually unresolvable (I happen to disagree with the number however, since learning how to communicate and negotiate effectively can resolve many seemingly unresolvale conflicts). The difference is how a couple manages the conflicts.

Reacting to conflicts with personal attacks, demeaning statements, lies ... in short gaslighting ... is a recipe for unhealthy dynamics in the relationship. Even in otherwise healthy relationships, a partner can cat badly at times. I know I certainly have. The difference is how such incidents are repaired and whether gaslighting is a chronic problem. If so, then it is not healthy to stay in such a relationship.

In short, if one partner is chronically engaging in gaslighting, then it is incumbent on the other to set boundaries and change their response; the gaslighter has no motivation to change if what they are doing gets them what they want.


"Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know that one is me."
Re: Combated Gaslighting [Re: Fiddler] #444739
01/31/20 09:11 PM
01/31/20 09:11 PM
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Orchid2 Offline
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Hi Fiddler,

Thanks for your last post. I think the still outstanding question is more complex.

Does gaslighting pertain only to the one with the intent to harm? Or can gaslighting come from the victims seeking to protect themselves? If not, what is that action called?

I have found that many a WS (use them as an example) make accusations to the BS and family in a twisted way to try and force the BS and family to enable the A. Gaslighting is one of the tools commonly used by the WS and OP.

Twisted words, made up analogies, rewriting history, false accusations and out right lies, are the tools of a manipulator. Defense tools have to be smarter than that but it also requires a clear mind and a calm heart in order to be smarter that the attacks.

I see this happening on many levels and also see folks resign to just being silent thus enabling further bad behavior.

What I'd like to see is how to identify and deal with acts of gaslighting in a fair and honest manner while realizing that the playing field is probably uneven.

I'm watching right now of a person making accusations which if flipped matches more against the person speaking than those he is accusing. Now is that gaslighting? How often have we seen that happen while dealing with a WS and OP? How did the BS' deal with it vs should have dealt with it?

I think if we can show IRL application it will help the newbie BS' see the light sooner rather than later. To delay can often create more harm. Yet the tactic to delay is what a WS does to many a BS.

Delay on the D, rush the D, WS doesn't want a D, then ask the BS to do the D and it goes on and on in this vicious cycle that truly does damage the stamina of the BS and family.

jmo,
Orchid


Orchid
Re: Combated Gaslighting [Re: Orchid2] #444742
01/31/20 11:45 PM
01/31/20 11:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,208
Monterey, CA
Fiddler Offline OP
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Fiddler  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Orchid2
Does gaslighting pertain only to the one with the intent to harm? Or can gaslighting come from the victims seeking to protect themselves? If not, what is that action called?
I take "gaslighting" to refer to the behavior, not the response. Gaslighting may or may not "work" depending on how the one to whom it is directed responds. That's where boundaries and self-knowledge are crucial. For me, focusing on the behavior alone makes things much simpler than attempting to discern the motivation of the one doing the gaslighting behavior.
Originally Posted by Orchid2
I have found that many a WS (use them as an example) make accusations to the BS and family in a twisted way to try and force the BS and family to enable the A. Gaslighting is one of the tools commonly used by the WS and OP.
Why isn't a simple boundary, such as "I refuse to share my spouse", not an effective response to such attempts? Just because someone makes accusations doesn't mean that have to be accepted as true.
Originally Posted by Orchid2
Twisted words, made up analogies, rewriting history, false accusations and out right lies, are the tools of a manipulator. Defense tools have to be smarter than that but it also requires a clear mind and a calm heart in order to be smarter that the attacks.
I totally agree, especially about being clear and calm. Which is why I believe that focusing one oneself to achieve that clarity is more effective than on the gaslighter. For me, it doesn't matter why it is done.
Originally Posted by Orchid2
I see this happening on many levels and also see folks resign to just being silent thus enabling further bad behavior.
This is sad, and you are right that simply remaining silent does reward bad behavior.
Originally Posted by Orchid2
What I'd like to see is how to identify and deal with acts of gaslighting in a fair and honest manner while realizing that the playing field is probably uneven.
I think the list in the cited article is an excellent example of how to deal with gaslighting.
Originally Posted by Orchid2
I'm watching right now of a person making accusations which if flipped matches more against the person speaking than those he is accusing. Now is that gaslighting? How often have we seen that happen while dealing with a WS and OP? How did the BS' deal with it vs should have dealt with it?
I think it's less important to put a label on it than to identify unacceptable behaviors (of which gaslighting is only one). And my experience also suggests that those making accusations are typically projecting.
Originally Posted by Orchid2
I think if we can show IRL application it will help the newbie BS' see the light sooner rather than later. To delay can often create more harm. Yet the tactic to delay is what a WS does to many a BS.
The difficulty I see with those who are in the early stages of discovering a partner's infidelity is that they are often not in a solid place to be clear and calm. Their world - or rather what they believed their world to be - has been shattered, and it's hard to keep one;s bearings when everything has been turned upside down. Yes, the most effective response is immediate and clear boundaries, but it requires some work to get to that place. There is a tendency to want to cling to what they had (or thought they had). I think it's important not to be too impatient with someone in that situation.
Originally Posted by Orchid2
Delay on the D, rush the D, WS doesn't want a D, then ask the BS to do the D and it goes on and on in this vicious cycle that truly does damage the stamina of the BS and family.
Actually that behavior makes perfect sense to me - as long as the spouse is willing to tolerate it. What motivation would a cheating spouse have to divorce if cake eating is working for them? It may be "unfair" that the other spouse must take action, but they are the only one with a reason to change the status quo.


"Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know that one is me."
Re: Combated Gaslighting [Re: Fiddler] #444744
02/01/20 02:25 AM
02/01/20 02:25 AM
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Orchid2 Offline
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Hi Fiddler,

Thanks for your review of my post. I've got to run off to the post office and beat the deadline......

Will read it in depth more when I get back.

Thanks,
Orchid


Orchid
Re: Combated Gaslighting [Re: Fiddler] #444893
03/31/20 04:10 PM
03/31/20 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiddler
What I find so powerful about these recommendations is how they only rely on my boundaries and not what may or may not be going on for the other person.

I continue to be amazed at how powerful it is to just work on my end of things, specifically boundaries, in any situation.

Like you said, the intent of the other person doesn't really matter; the important thing is that I exercise good boundaries. One example is with a neighbor. Because I felt sorry for the circumstances, I neglected to use appropriate boundaries for the situation until it became dangerous to me. Another example is with someone in the same self-help group who just does not like me and is pretty transparent at what the intent is for their actions at any given time. Good boundaries make it possible for that person to do whatever they feel the need to do without it becoming harmful to me. Annoying sometimes, Lol, but not harmful.


Quote
...the gaslighter has no motivation to change if what they are doing gets them what they want.

For that matter, I don't change anything that isn't causing me some kind of problem. Lol

It's easy for me to judge what someone else "should" do but the reality is that if they are getting what they want then it would be unwise for them to change what they're doing. And unwise for me to put all the control of my getting what I want or need in their hands. Until I enacted the current boundaries, the neighbor had zero motivation to change actions.

And here's the biggest lesson of the whole thing: Claims that certain behavior was not within the person's control somehow got magically managed when better boundaries were used on my end.

Same lesson from the last days of my marriage. Hopefully, I really get it now. Lol


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