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Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: Blair] #444265
10/17/19 02:48 AM
10/17/19 02:48 AM
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LG,

Are you comfortable with yourself and your children? Being at that point may require some adjustment of values and requirements. I know I had to let go of things I really had no control over but was given the 'blame rope'.

My H is similar to yours from what you have described. So who the Ws vs BS was is irrelevant at this point. It is evident your H wasn't interested in making his own self-improvements and has been allowed to blame you for his shortcomings.

Mine did that for years. When I take a good hard look I see that most in his family tend to blame others vs themselves no matter how many chances they are given to help themselves become better people.

My son and I got caught up in that mess until we walked away. There have been many teaching moments that my son and I have had. It starts but looking at what is being done vs making excuses as to who is doing it.

jmo ,
Orchid


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Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444278
10/22/19 02:50 PM
10/22/19 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyGrey
Implied in your comments is the notion that having an affair is the worst thing one spouse can do to the other. I do not agree with that sentiment.

Apparently your husband doesn't either, but that is atypical for most husbands.

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: Fergie] #444289
10/27/19 05:36 AM
10/27/19 05:36 AM
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LadyGrey Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Fergie
Originally Posted by LadyGrey
Implied in your comments is the notion that having an affair is the worst thing one spouse can do to the other. I do not agree with that sentiment.

Apparently your husband doesn't either, but that is atypical for most husbands.


I really want to have this conversation. Why is that? I don’t get it AT ALL. So I had sex with another man 8 years ago. So what? I’ve MORE than made up for it.

Is this some puritanical take where the woman is forever ruined because she had the penis/vagina interaction?

Why is the sex bit of it more offensive than the FACT that I adored him and loved every.single.second of my time with him? Or the fact that I miss him and think of him every day?

Why is the penis/vagina thing the be all and end all for men? It’s just so shallow and really sort of yucky.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444290
10/27/19 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyGrey
......Why is the penis/vagina thing the be all and end all for men? It’s just so shallow and really sort of yucky.


IMO, it is because his pride has been hurt. Y? Because the trust factor you have restored long ago but he can't forget the wound to his pride. There is a saying about pride is before a crash. So if he is more interested in holding onto actions that have been atoned for, then what else can anyone do? The work needed here is on himself.

He may never be able to resolve this or he may learn to recover from this with you by his side. It is his decision to make.

What I see here is his doing this as long as you allow it. Even though our roles were reversed, that is what WSt did to our family and now since he choose other things and people over his family, he is living with his things.

LG, if you know you have done your best and your H still chooses to keep you down, decide whether you should allow yourself to be mistreated as such. It is a type of abuse, a very subtle one that can last years.

I deal with current issues, even though it may seem to some that I have a grudge, I don't. I deal with current situations that do have the option to change. For what I can't help, I drop but where I do see hope, I hold onto to it for a while longer.

May you find the peace you deserve and strength to live a calmer life.

Take care,
Orchid


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Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444291
10/28/19 02:59 PM
10/28/19 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyGrey
Why is the penis/vagina thing the be all and end all for men? It’s just so shallow and really sort of yucky.

Every woman can tell you the story of the moment they realized that they crossed that point from being a child to becoming a sex object for men. When the men around them regardless age looked at them and treated them differently. I'm sure it was creepy and weird, but women also realized they had power and that their sexuality had enormous value.

If you really believed PIV sex is no big deal, you would have been handing it out like candy at Halloween, but you didn't. You protected it, like most women. Why give away something that has such huge value for free, right?

Men have something of value too and that is their commitment. Ten cc's of semen cost a man 25 calories and is nothing, but choosing the wrong woman to marry costs big. That's why this conversation is pointless because I don't expect you to wrap your head around the concept monogamist commitment means more to a man than a woman.

Even while I was married to the laziest woman in the world, where she put forth zero effort in to our relationship, I could always hang my hat on, "Well... at least she is faithful." Your husband thought the same thing too and regardless of whatever issues you might have had, he thought you were special.

That special-ness ended when you rejected his commitment in the very concrete way of having an affair. You will never get it back. I know you want it back. Your husband desperately wants it back. But it is gone. Poof.

So the short answer to your question is: It isn't the PIV thing that men are hung up on, it is the complete rejection of the commitment your husband gave you that is the issue.

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444299
10/29/19 10:56 AM
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Hugs, LG, as you sort through everything.

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444301
10/29/19 03:07 PM
10/29/19 03:07 PM
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I think Fergies take is just a little simplistic. I doubt all men feel that way. I have a very close friend who was unfaithful when she was young....they have been married for almost 30 years now. He was a terrible husband for probably the first half of their marriage....and they stuck it out and now seem happy. She has never ever indicated that he continued to punish her for her mistake.

My own husband forgave first wife for an affair.... but I don’t really know that he had time to fully get over it before she did it again. It was less than 2 years later that she filed for divorce. My dh says he believes she is unable to forgive herself and it is why she keeps doing it over and over again...she thinks she is beyond redemption.

I think LG’s husband treats her how he has always treated her. Mean, selfish, unkind....the only difference now is that she gave him a new weapon that he will probably use on her the rest of his life.

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: Fergie] #444302
10/29/19 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Fergie
Originally Posted by LadyGrey
Why is the penis/vagina thing the be all and end all for men? It’s just so shallow and really sort of yucky.

Every woman can tell you the story of the moment they realized that they crossed that point from being a child to becoming a sex object for men. When the men around them regardless age looked at them and treated them differently. I'm sure it was creepy and weird, but women also realized they had power and that their sexuality had enormous value.

If you really believed PIV sex is no big deal, you would have been handing it out like candy at Halloween, but you didn't. You protected it, like most women. Why give away something that has such huge value for free, right?

Men have something of value too and that is their commitment. Ten cc's of semen cost a man 25 calories and is nothing, but choosing the wrong woman to marry costs big. That's why this conversation is pointless because I don't expect you to wrap your head around the concept monogamist commitment means more to a man than a woman.

Even while I was married to the laziest woman in the world, where she put forth zero effort in to our relationship, I could always hang my hat on, "Well... at least she is faithful." Your husband thought the same thing too and regardless of whatever issues you might have had, he thought you were special.

That special-ness ended when you rejected his commitment in the very concrete way of having an affair. You will never get it back. I know you want it back. Your husband desperately wants it back. But it is gone. Poof.

So the short answer to your question is: It isn't the PIV thing that men are hung up on, it is the complete rejection of the commitment your husband gave you that is the issue.


From a religious POV, which you or LG may not share, , straying sexually is in a category of its own. Doesn’t mean it is the WORST thing you can do to another human, but scripturally it is the get out of jail free card. And that is because it is a tough blow.....to have your spouse sexually involved with another. However, you either take the out or you forgive. This nonsense of staying together and then beating your spouse over the head with their sin is non sense. God doesn’t do that to us.....how dare we do it to each other.

I don’t think LGs husband has the self awareness to know that he did not have the integrity to either divorce or forgive. I think LG sees it clearly although I do think, LG that you are minimizing your affair.....you don’t need to minimize it. You did it, it was wrong, BUT you also stopped it and it is over and your husband has never got to that place.

I mean, have you ever had that exact conversation with him? Either forgive me or divorce me? And did he say no, thanks I prefer to keep torturing you? And have you ever said then I will divorce you?

Last edited by SmilingWife; 10/29/19 03:34 PM.
Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: SmilingWife] #444303
10/29/19 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by SmilingWife
I think Fergies take is just a little simplistic. I doubt all men feel that way.

Well obviously not *all* men feel that way. But statistically speaking you would be 100% wrong.

I've been trying to find the peer reviewed journal article using data outlining why spouses file for divorce (collected from interviews). The #1 reason for men to file for divorce was infidelity.

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: SmilingWife] #444304
10/29/19 05:58 PM
10/29/19 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by SmilingWife
From a religious POV, which you or LG may not share, , straying sexually is in a category of its own. Doesn’t mean it is the WORST thing you can do to another human, but scripturally it is the get out of jail free card. And that is because it is a tough blow.....to have your spouse sexually involved with another. However, you either take the out or you forgive. This nonsense of staying together and then beating your spouse over the head with their sin is non sense. God doesn’t do that to us.....how dare we do it to each other.

I don’t think LGs husband has the self awareness to know that he did not have the integrity to either divorce or forgive. I think LG sees it clearly although I do think, LG that you are minimizing your affair.....you don’t need to minimize it. You did it, it was wrong, BUT you also stopped it and it is over and your husband has never got to that place.

I mean, have you ever had that exact conversation with him? Either forgive me or divorce me? And did he say no, thanks I prefer to keep torturing you? And have you ever said then I will divorce you?


This makes so much sense..

Thanks, SW, for your clarity.

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: SmilingWife] #444305
10/29/19 06:20 PM
10/29/19 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by SmilingWife
I don’t think LGs husband has the self awareness to know that he did not have the integrity to either divorce or forgive. I think LG sees it clearly although I do think, LG that you are minimizing your affair.....you don’t need to minimize it. You did it, it was wrong, BUT you also stopped it and it is over and your husband has never got to that place.

I'll be the absolute first person to assert that her husband is clearly disordered. But just like the wife abuser and the beaten wife, it's not just the man being disordered. A more functional adult doesn't put up with continual abuse, they leave.

The lack of self awareness isn't limited to her husband. The time she smashed her husband's wine glasses was supposed to come off as empowering, but it actually came off as unhinged. I've had many relationships and not a single woman has smashed anything of mine in anger. When pressed she revealed she was drunk. You are obviously getting whitewashed versions of the story.

Originally Posted by SmilingWife
I mean, have you ever had that exact conversation with him? Either forgive me or divorce me? And did he say no, thanks I prefer to keep torturing you? And have you ever said then I will divorce you?

None of that will ever happen...

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: Fergie] #444306
10/29/19 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Fergie
Originally Posted by SmilingWife
I don’t think LGs husband has the self awareness to know that he did not have the integrity to either divorce or forgive. I think LG sees it clearly although I do think, LG that you are minimizing your affair.....you don’t need to minimize it. You did it, it was wrong, BUT you also stopped it and it is over and your husband has never got to that place.

I'll be the absolute first person to assert that her husband is clearly disordered. But just like the wife abuser and the beaten wife, it's not just the man being disordered. A more functional adult doesn't put up with continual abuse, they leave.

The lack of self awareness isn't limited to her husband. The time she smashed her husband's wine glasses was supposed to come off as empowering, but it actually came off as unhinged. I've had many relationships and not a single woman has smashed anything of mine in anger. When pressed she revealed she was drunk. You are obviously getting whitewashed versions of the story.

Originally Posted by SmilingWife
I mean, have you ever had that exact conversation with him? Either forgive me or divorce me? And did he say no, thanks I prefer to keep torturing you? And have you ever said then I will divorce you?

None of that will ever happen...


I don’t think LG has ever whitewashed her story. I imagine when she was telling the wine glass smashing story she did not think the focus was on alcohol. Maybe in hind site she can see oh yes, I am more likely to break things when I drink too much.

And as a reformed smasher of things, I can tell you that crazy can breed crazy. That is not justification—it is an explanation. It was when I got off the crazy train that I was able to get myself under control. But, I did have to make that first step off the train.

I do agree that LG is very unlikely to ever divorce him.

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444322
10/30/19 05:46 PM
10/30/19 05:46 PM
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LG seems to have decided that the appropriate penalty for her infidelity is to be punished by her husband for the rest of their lives.

I have made a similar decision, so I can understand why she does this and will not throw stones at her house.

I am guessing she makes a similar analysis to the one I make: I can endure this forever, so there is no need to inconvenience my kids in order to relieve the torture. I am a bad person who deserves bad outcomes, so it is better to remain with a person who is some ways "deserves" to be married to damaged goods. Rather than to foist my damage onto someone else. That someone else never did anything to harm me, and doesn't deserve to be saddled with my baggage.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444323
10/30/19 08:15 PM
10/30/19 08:15 PM
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Hold, there are VERY few things I can say with certainty but if I were to get divorced or my husband die before me I will neither date nor remarry.

I would never, ever, ever trust a man to be kind to me.

I don’t want my husbands commitment. What the hell good does that do me? I used to want him to be nice to me. Now I just want him to leave me the hell alone.

Fergie, It interests me that you recall the wine glass incident. It was in the earlier days when I sometimes fought back. Now I freeze or flee or both and that’s just fine.

Intercourse has become exquisitely painful no doubt due to age and estrogen deficit. I still do it of course because it is my duty but dear God it hurts so. I got some vagina estrogen cream that’s meant to help but I’ve had it a month and haven’t opened the box. I’m more scared of the estrogen than I am the pain - ten minutes a week or so of agony feels a fair trade off for a lowered risk of recurrence.

I’ve never told my husband how much it hurts, and I never will. I would then be vulnerable to him and that is the most intolerable thought of all.

My work right now is focused on how to die with grace so I’m doing a lot of reading and contemplation on that. I’m not actively dying to my knowledge but I think I will lead a more intellectually and emotionally fulfilling life if I can get my arms around death. I’m trying to consciously devote as little emotional energy to my marriage as possible. It will never change and my efforts to do so have been fruitless.
I want to die but am not intellectually or emotionally ready to so am working on that. Perhaps I will feel differently when my grandson is born but I think my work here is done and can’t get excited about 10-20 more years of abuse and suffering.

Both before and after the affair I’ve gotten on my knees to my husband and begged him to find a way to be nice to me or divorce me. He’s nice for a few weeks, I relax a twitch then BAM.

The gravaman of your argument Fergie is that my husband was a complete dick to me before the affair so it is difficult to argue cause and effect. I hope he has a girlfriend in Houston — hell, for all I know he has another entire family there as he’s been commuting for 12 years — but I doubt it I imagine he’d rather be castrated than give up his moral superiority.

I saw my psychiatrist a few weeks ago and the subject was how to stay in the marriage. He told me to reduce interaction to the bare minimum but continue to have sex whenever he wants so that’s my plan.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444325
10/30/19 11:50 PM
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Painful sex will hurt you more over time than no sex at all. Is there a way you can get help from a specialist on that?

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: Blair] #444326
10/31/19 12:04 AM
10/31/19 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Blair
Painful sex will hurt you more over time than no sex at all. Is there a way you can get help from a specialist on that?


The estrogen cream is from a gynecologist. My oncologist flat refused to give me anything and would probably have me on an anti estrogen drug for the rest of my life if I would agree. But in addition to more ouch those drugs weaken bone density and estrogen has a protective effect with heart disease. There is no good answer.

It’s ok — it’s just a few minutes every so often which beats metastatic breast cancer. I focus on staying quiet as a little mouse, counting to 100 over and over (it only counts if you breath) and most importantly not letting it touch my soul.

Anything for the quiet life!


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444327
10/31/19 12:28 AM
10/31/19 12:28 AM
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I hurt for you, LG. There has to be something that can be done, instead of you suffering through the pain, the hurtful words and other abuse.

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444328
10/31/19 02:54 AM
10/31/19 02:54 AM
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[Bleep!].

The ice water in the face is welcome because when I get uppity I get hurt. And reality bites, although not hard because there is a zero % chance I would ever want anything to do with another man. For the most part, men are just mean.

And I’m OK with that — the ice water keeps me from going out on an emotionally honest limb. It’s real safe by the trunk where I take exquisitely excellent care of my husband and children.

I think I’ll cling here until the blessed day I die.

Speaking of death, does no one want to talk about that? I’ve learned so much mostly because of my friend with the brain tumor but all that info is for sure going to come in handy someday!

Last edited by LadyGrey; 10/31/19 02:26 PM.

Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444329
10/31/19 03:00 AM
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Well that didn’t work. The first half of my post disappeared when I edited it.

Oh well.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444330
10/31/19 03:20 AM
10/31/19 03:20 AM
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LG, I am a mod can click on edit and read your entire post.

I am distraught that you think my post to you is ice water. Of course you should feel worthy of good treatment. I never want any post of mine to be ice water. I don’t even think Fergie is trying to do that even though I don’t agree with his assessment of women and men in general.

You had an affair. You broke it off at great cost to yourself. Maybe in another life you and affair partner might have been good together. But this is not another life. This is the life where you committed to your husband and had three children with him.

Your affair is not by any stretch of the imagination the worst thing ever. God forgives such things...humans forgive such things..none the less it was an affair and it was wrong. That is what I meant by don’t minimize it. Own it. It was wrong. I did it, I admitted it, I broke it off, I have been NC for 8 years. You have much more to be proud of than to be ashamed of. Of this I am certain.

We all die currently LG. I can have a theological discussion with you about death that might bring you comfort......but not sure that is for this conversation.

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444331
10/31/19 04:31 AM
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I don't intend to be ice water either. I'm sorry if it came across that way.

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444332
10/31/19 04:52 AM
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LG

I won’t ever date or get in a relationship again either now that Daryl has died. I don’t trust any man to be consistently kind and I don’t trust myself to pick one who would be if one does exist.

I’m too flawed to be in a functional relationship. And I’m thrilled to the gills to be left the &”@$ alone.

So it’s not just you with that feeling.

Just so you know


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444333
10/31/19 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyGrey
Hold, there are VERY few things I can say with certainty but if I were to get divorced or my husband die before me I will neither date nor remarry.

I would never, ever, ever trust a man to be kind to me.


In this way we are the same, which is why I feel such resonance from your posts.

Quote
I don’t want my husbands commitment. What the hell good does that do me? I used to want him to be nice to me. Now I just want him to leave me the hell alone.


Well, I guess I want her to be pleasant when we have dinner together on the weekends. Otherwise, let me do yard work and play video games and you can watch tv and surf social media on your phone.

Every so often she complains that I stay late at work almost every night. She says she is lonely when she is home alone. As with your husband being in Houston so much of the time, physical distance and minimizing daily interaction is part of what allows us to remain together.

You have me beat in the martyr category. Which is no men feat and I respect your accomplishment. Not having sex at all pales in comparison to having regularly painful sex. Not my place to suggest you stop doing that. I know how strangely wonderful it feels to give in to the urge for self-harm. I know how comforting it is to be the sacrificial lamb. To let go and let it happen because you don't have the will or the energy to fight any longer. And because the fear of loneliness is stronger than the fear of pain.

I will not encourage you to seek death. You have much to offer the world. And I would hate to see your H "win". But I definitely understand the fascination it holds. Still, it is an attractive nuisance. And you would do best to turn away.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444334
10/31/19 02:14 PM
10/31/19 02:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 7,038
holdingontoit Offline
Global Moderator
holdingontoit  Offline
Global Moderator
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 7,038
Oh, and I really really hate your H. Almost as much as I hate myself. I can't believe it took me 20 years to figure out what sex is like for Mrs H. Same as it is for you. I wonder if your H will ever realize what he is doing. Just because you remain silent and motionless does not mean that he will never figure it out.

Then again, I understand why you don't want him to know. If he stops having sex with you, he becomes the martyr. And if he doesn't stop, you would be having painful sex with someone who knows it is painful. Dear God, that would be incredibly awful.

It is truly amazing the mental prisons we can build for ourselves.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444335
10/31/19 02:24 PM
10/31/19 02:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,655
L
LadyGrey Offline OP
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline OP
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,655
It’s not clear given half my post disappeared when I tried to edit it, but y’all are misunderstanding. Fergie serves as my welcome ice water — I need and welcome his wake up calls!

I appreciate everyone who is bothered to click on my story and respond. I’m limited in my replies because I can only access the site through my phones history — otherwise google tells me it’s an unsafe site and won’t open it. I’m assuming everyone has this issue. The “quote” feature doesn’t work on my phone so I have a hard time responding individually.

Have a good day my dear friends. I count on you more than I can say. My daughters baby shower is this weekend and I’m going to focus on that today and finding joy in wrapping baby presents in blue paper. Also, I’m having 35 people for dinner at my house on Sat nite for the after shower party so better get going on that!


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
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