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Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444225
10/11/19 12:02 PM
10/11/19 12:02 PM
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Your H is a huge jerk (in censored-speak). He finally owned up to doing it and admitted he's not going to stop abusing you.

Big hugs as you decide what to do. You don't have to stay with him. You are smart and witty and you deserve safety and peace.

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444226
10/11/19 12:11 PM
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We're not surprised. We've been telling you to leave him since you've been here. Only you keep yourself in misery.

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444227
10/11/19 04:22 PM
10/11/19 04:22 PM
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Wishing you peace. I know it is hard to find peace when you are living with a hostile partner. I am not suggesting you separate or divorce (although I share the general consensus view that it would be good for you - but in the end I respect that it is your choice to make). But it would help if you find a way to disentangle yourself so you have plenty of time and space to live free from hostility. You will have to decide which threads to tug to disentangle them. Often difficult to determine which thread has the best chance of coming free. And helpful to accept that it may take time and patience to pluck each thread free

To the extent that we can serve as tweezers or magnifying glasses to make the process easier, we are here for you.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444228
10/11/19 05:25 PM
10/11/19 05:25 PM
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Thinking of you LG

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444229
10/11/19 09:12 PM
10/11/19 09:12 PM
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The only question I have ever had about relationship is why did your husband stay? Even a MA former member and reconciling BH called it quits earlier this year and he was supposed to be a success story and had a much longer recovery period.

I've been kinder to your husband than most here (frankly because he doesn't deserves to be made out as the devil), but anymore I don't care about him. He chooses to stay.

Both of you deserve the spouse you tolerate.

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444231
10/14/19 03:05 PM
10/14/19 03:05 PM
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Hello LG! It's been awhile since I've been here and it's so nice to see you.

Gonna jump right in.....

I find it encouraging that he admitted that to you. To me, it indicates that there is a level of honesty that not all couple have especially when dealing with the aftermath of infidelity. As much as the message itself might be jarring or even devastating, it's something that you can work with because it is honest.

So, the question for me is: Do you want to work with it? You certainly don't have to; it's just one option of many. However, I encourage you to work with it because of my sincere belief that personal recovery is a worthy goal no matter the outcome of the marriage.

Remember the saying "Bloom Where You Are Planted"? I have modified it for myself to "Heal Where You Are, In Any and Every Way That You Can."

Not sure if I've shared this here but I worked on personal recovery until there was nothing more that I could do while married and living with now-exh. Then I separated and worked on personal recovery until there was nothing more that I could do while separated and legally married. Then I filed for divorce (without a fire under my atty's ass) and worked on personal recovery until there was nothing more that I could do without a finalized divorce. Then I gave my atty the direction to go full steam ahead with finalizing the divorce. Then I worked on personal recovery until there was noth... actually, still working on it. Lol

Today, I'm similar to Miranda (hi Miranda! and everyone!) in that I'm liking myself and my life so much that I don't want to add a romantic relationship or the issues that a romantic partner might bring into the mix. Maybe one day because I'm not completely ruling it out... just not open to it yet.

Personal recovery has been quite an experience! In addition to the usual, I've even experienced physical recovery in ways that no doctor can explain. There are miracles in recovery and I've had several. LG, I've watched my kids do their own personal recovery and it serves them well. I can't express how much joy it gives me to see where it is taking each of them. They are soooooo much better equipped for a full life than I ever thought possible!

Something that I want to briefly mention is that it pains me whenever divorce is advised before a solid personal recovery plan has been worked to the fullest. Just one reason is that a lot of time was wasted on the 'should I file for divorce' question when really what was needed was enough personal recovery so that the question answered itself. To me, a question of 'should I,,,' means that there is still more personal recovery work for me to do first. When it was time to file, there was no question at all. Just a sad and tragic answer.

So, LG, I want to encourage you to take the gift of your H's honesty and devote yourself to personal recovery efforts in every way. And let the outcome happen in its own time because then you will be best prepared to handle whatever it might be. Imho, your marriage could still recover or end; but the jury is still out because there's still work to do..

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: Fergie] #444232
10/14/19 03:36 PM
10/14/19 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Fergie
The only question I have ever had about relationship is why did your husband stay? Even a MA former member and reconciling BH called it quits earlier this year and he was supposed to be a success story and had a much longer recovery period.


That is EXACTLY the question to ask oneself because it can provide clues for what needs to be included in personal recovery efforts.

For some, personal recovery makes a good marriage possible even after infidelity. For others, personal recovery leads to divorce. And either outcome takes time to come about but it's not wasted time, imho.

My hope is that your friend got as much out of the situation as possible for his personal recovery and future. It does take two to recover a marriage as well as personal recovery for both spouses. I would think it a tragedy if the marriage ended because one or both were unwilling to do personal recovery work that might have led to a marriage that would have been wanted.

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444237
10/14/19 06:27 PM
10/14/19 06:27 PM
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LadyGrey Offline OP
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LW I have no idea what personal recovery means but I really appreciate your and everyone else’s thoughts.

I think the issue fairly stated is whether I, having endured cancer twice, at age 59, am willing to stay in a marriage with a husband who abuses me and has promised to continue for the sake of my family?

And I don’t know the answer.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444241
10/14/19 11:28 PM
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LG, personal recovery is dealing with whatever is hindering you in some way.

When you worked on understanding the path to your affair, that was personal recovery work.

In this instance, part of personal recovery efforts now might include coming to understand the reasons that you were willing to endure certain abuses and evaluating with today's hindsight whether it resulted in what you thought it would in terms of the sake of your family.

Personal recovery might also include delving into what is different for you (or in you) today that it's now questionable whether it would still be worth it to you to continue to endure certain abuses for the sake of your family. A simple answer could be that you don't give a sh*t about your family any more but I'm pretty sure that's not the case, lol.

Notice that this work has nothing to do with your H. It's all yours...

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444242
10/15/19 04:10 AM
10/15/19 04:10 AM
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You say for the sake of your family. So you think your children are comfortable with your decision to stay for abuse? From personal experience I can tell you it is the greatest sadness and heartbreak in their life that they cannot save you.


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444246
10/15/19 02:05 PM
10/15/19 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyGrey
LW I have no idea what personal recovery means but I really appreciate your and everyone else’s thoughts.

I think the issue fairly stated is whether I, having endured cancer twice, at age 59, am willing to stay in a marriage with a husband who abuses me and has promised to continue for the sake of my family?

And I don’t know the answer.


There has always been a part of you that reminds me of myself. I endured many years of abusive treatment from my first husband. Our son wasn’t born until we had been married for 16 1/2 years.....so obviously I didn’t stay for the child. But then when he was born I did stay for him. It was all very confusing. Honestly I am still confused by it. But I think it came down to I did not want to fail at marriage. I did not want to admit I made a bad choice.

Eventually, I discovered a line in the sand. It was the affair he had with his 24 year old workmate. Then weeks later to put a final nail in the coffin I discovered he had also had an affair with my 19 year old cousin. I knew I had to get free of him...because if I stayed he would see it as open season on me.

I remember one time.....years ago....before our son was born....I asked him, ‘how long do you think I will keep taking this?’. I don’t remember specifically what ‘this’ was....but he was horrible to me a lot of the time. He gritted his teeth and said angrily, ‘I don’t know! You tell me!’.

He was not all bad. Few people are. But he refused to root out and correct his abusive tendency. Do you know what it took for him to do that? Me divorcing him. Almost three years to the day after I kicked him out of the house (by legal decree of course because he would have never left voluntarily) he contacted me and I saw a man who had realized what he had done and what he had lost.

And I just think there are some people like that. That really will not change until it is too late.

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444247
10/15/19 03:08 PM
10/15/19 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyGrey
I think the issue fairly stated is whether I, having endured cancer twice, at age 59, am willing to stay in a marriage with a husband who abuses me and has promised to continue for the sake of my family?

And I don’t know the answer.
You stay in your marriage because it has the biggest payoff of all your options. It gives you most control over the family.
Divorced you will be splitting holidays. Your children won't abandon their father. They will still see their father and do vacations with him. It just won't include you.

Together your children have no other option, but divorced your kids get to choose.

Plus you may not want another relationship, but I bet my hands on your husband at the very least getting a girlfriend after a divorce. The single women who don't want to spend last decades of their life alone will compete hard for your husband. And as you said earlier, you don't want another woman holding your grandbabies and the only way to stop that is stayed married.

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: Fergie] #444248
10/15/19 03:11 PM
10/15/19 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Fergie
The only question I have ever had about relationship is why did your husband stay?


I’ve wondered this as well. Part of it is I’m sure that both his parents are on their fourth marriages, part of it is he hates to lose.

But I think part of it is that within the parameters of his emotional makeup he does love me. The fact is that I’ve been good to and incredibly supportive of him for 40 plus years. I’ve been a devoted in the trenches mother and the outcomes have been good.

I also think if he didn’t recognize on some level that he contributed to the environment that led to the affair (being politically correct is linguistically cumbersome) he’d have divorced. I think if I hadn’t reacted and didn’t continue to react with “OK by me” he’d have filed.

[quote=Fergie]Both of you deserve the spouse you will tolerate.[quote]

This has a facile appeal but I’m not sure it’s true. I’m awfully good to him. OTOH I’m not terribly honest with his about how I experience his attacks as those conversations always degenerate into a discussion of my many failings.

As an example of how this manifests, at every single wedding we go to he says one or more really shinola-y things about me so I always leave early to get away from him. We went to a wedding last Sat night and he was considerate and solicitous. I got more and more nervous to the point where when he offered to get me a drink I got so anxious I threw up in the brides room— did not make it to the toilet! Left early and my daughter got furious at me for it. Lose/lose.

As an update, he has promised to stop. Hahahahaha. My mama didn’t raise no fool. OTOH he didn’t get all defensive and mean when I told him about the vomiting and told me the wedding caused him to realize he should be a better husband.

We shall see.



Last edited by LadyGrey; 10/15/19 03:12 PM.

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Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: Fergie] #444249
10/15/19 03:44 PM
10/15/19 03:44 PM
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LadyGrey Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Fergie
Originally Posted by LadyGrey
I think the issue fairly stated is whether I, having endured cancer twice, at age 59, am willing to stay in a marriage with a husband who abuses me and has promised to continue for the sake of my family?

And I don’t know the answer.
You stay in your marriage because it has the biggest payoff of all your options. It gives you most control over the family.
Divorced you will be splitting holidays. Your children won't abandon their father. They will still see their father and do vacations with him. It just won't include you.

Together your children have no other option, but divorced your kids get to choose.

Plus you may not want another relationship, but I bet my hands on your husband at the very least getting a girlfriend after a divorce. The single women who don't want to spend last decades of their life alone will compete hard for your husband. And as you said earlier, you don't want another woman holding your grandbabies and the only way to stop that is stayed married.


I’m going to re read this every time I want to run screaming for the hills.

I’m honestly not bothered by the thought of Wife 2. Poor thing. And you are correct — my husband is good looking and rich, as am I. So neither do us will lack for attention from the opposite sex. I’m just not interested. He is temperamentally unsuited to be single so I know full well what would happen.

My family is everything to me. I may have forgotten that for a few months 8 years ago, but I’m constantly maneuvering to create what I think is the best outcome for my kids.

I suspect that roughly 99% of people married 30 plus years stay for reasons other than “love”, whatever that means.

Last edited by LadyGrey; 10/15/19 03:52 PM.

Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444251
10/15/19 04:35 PM
10/15/19 04:35 PM
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holdingontoit Offline
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Originally Posted by LadyGrey

I suspect that roughly 99% of people married 30 plus years stay for reasons other than “love”, whatever that means.


I am not sure it is that high, but it is surely far above 0%.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444252
10/15/19 06:31 PM
10/15/19 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyGrey
I’ve wondered this as well. Part of it is I’m sure that both his parents are on their fourth marriages, part of it is he hates to lose.

Those aren't separate reasons. They are the same. Although I would rephrase it as "your husband hates to make bad choices". And that's why he stays with you. That's exactly why I believe the BH earlier stuck it out so long. Sure it was for the kids and not losing half his stuff. But the elephant in the room was he didn't want to admit to himself (and more especially his family), he made the wrong choice in a wife and divorce proves that. Had they stayed together till death, he wins. In the end he couldn't.

Originally Posted by LadyGrey
I also think if he didn’t recognize on some level that he contributed to the environment that led to the affair (being politically correct is linguistically cumbersome) he’d have divorced. I think if I hadn’t reacted and didn’t continue to react with “OK by me” he’d have filed.

Maybe. But then again I have asserted that he probably secretly had his own affair. Your affair should have been the slap in the face to wake up even the most stubborn husband that he had made a bad wife choice. Unless he had is own affair and figures he has no right to be hypocritical and this is what he deserves.

You'll never know because neither of you are very honest about why you stay together.

BTW, him recognizing he "contributed to the environment that led to the affair" isn't what you think. It is him absolving himself of the high crime of doubling down on a bad decision of staying married while making it more palatable by admitting to a lesser crime. If only he would have been a better husband, then this wouldn't have happened, is a lot easier to swallow to being proven publicly to be a failure.

Originally Posted by LadyGrey
But I think part of it is that within the parameters of his emotional makeup he does love me.

I think he does love you in whatever limited capacity he has, but it is overshadowed by his need to not be "wrong", especially about something as important as his life.

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444253
10/15/19 07:35 PM
10/15/19 07:35 PM
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LG, are your children comfortable around you and your DH? My sister is the only one out of 6 of us who flat out tells my stepdad that we all want him to treat our Mom better and that we all hate him for how he treats her. And that the rest of us say nothing ONLY because we're know when we make him mad he'll take out his anger on her again.

Am I just projecting that your kids are dying inside to see this too? You said your daughter was very angry that you left the wedding when your DH talked so bad about you it made you throw up. Do you all get a chance to talk in private?

I have friends who saved their marriages from within. I don't think you need to divorce your husband to make big positive changes in your life and find a lot of happiness and joy. Have you ever had any interest or willingness in practicing the principles folks talk about here, like boundaries and validation?


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: NewEveryDay] #444256
10/16/19 02:58 PM
10/16/19 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
My sister is the only one out of 6 of us who flat out tells my stepdad that we all want him to treat our Mom better and that we all hate him for how he treats her. And that the rest of us say nothing ONLY because we're know when we make him mad he'll take out his anger on her again.

I absolutely hate how my SIL treats my brother. She shows zero respect for him. And I've told him that. He acknowledges it.

But I've come to realize he's not a victim. HE CHOSE HER. He is the only one who can change his situation. The "his-side-of-the-street" that needs cleaning up is he needs to investigate why he continues to tolerate such abuse where more healthy people would not. Your mom isn't a victim, she's integral to the problem.

Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Have you ever had any interest or willingness in practicing the principles folks talk about here, like boundaries and validation?

Those tools are only useful for people healthy enough to implement them. Otherwise it's like scraping the barnacles off a sinking boat. In my brother's hands those tools would be useless. And besides, if he ever did try it, my SIL is way too dysfunctional to just go along with it. It would lead inevitably to divorce because one healthy spouse does not stay with an unhealthy spouse. And LG and her husband have shown they agree (although for separate reasons) that they value not being divorced above all else.

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444257
10/16/19 03:48 PM
10/16/19 03:48 PM
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Fergie, I think we both made a terrible mistake marrying one another. But we were very young with no good models and did the best we could with the information we had at the time. Looking back, I feel sorry for us in our youthful ignorance and passion.

Implied in your comments is the notion that having an affair is the worst thing one spouse can do to the other. I do not agree with that sentiment.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: SmilingWife] #444259
10/16/19 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by SmilingWife
Do you know what it took for him to do that? Me divorcing him. Almost three years to the day after I kicked him ou

And I just think there are some people like that. That really will not change until it is too late.

I'm not convinced that wanting to get back together means that he was willing to change if that were to happen.

My exh was waiting for enough time to pass for everything to be far enough in the past that it wouldn't matter any more. After 10 years, I was finally able to help him understand and accept that it would never happen. He got a gf within 6 months of that after not dating at all since we separated and divorced. He hasn't changed and seems to be very happy with her.

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LadyGrey] #444260
10/16/19 05:01 PM
10/16/19 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyGrey
As an update, he has promised to stop. Hahahahaha. My mama didn’t raise no fool. OTOH he didn’t get all defensive and mean when I told him about the vomiting and told me the wedding caused him to realize he should be a better husband.

We shall see.


I'm proud of you for returning his honesty with some of your own. That took real courage, LG.

The way that I interpret this is that he finally knows that you have indeed been punished. My opinion is that had you not informed him that you have been punished at every wedding since the affair that he would continue to punish you at the next wedding.

Promising to stop is a really big step. I'm not sure that he can stop just like that but I find it encouraging that he has expressed to you that he wants to stop.

Imho, he won't be able to stop if you don't. Imho, the best gift and support you can give your H while he learns how to stop punishing you is for you to stop punishing yourself and live like you deserve every good thing. Because you both do. smile

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: NewEveryDay] #444261
10/16/19 05:30 PM
10/16/19 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
LG, are your children comfortable around you and your DH? My sister is the only one out of 6 of us who flat out tells my stepdad that we all want him to treat our Mom better and that we all hate him for how he treats her. And that the rest of us say nothing ONLY because we're know when we make him mad he'll take out his anger on her again.

I find it interesting that your sister tells him that she knows he will take it out on your mother that she speaks up to him and yet does it anyway. Telling him to treat her better just puts them in a power struggle... one that your sister cannot win and that your mother loses every time. Is there a possibility that your sister is wanting your mother punished for staying with him?

Quote
Am I just projecting that your kids are dying inside to see this too? You said your daughter was very angry that you left the wedding when your DH talked so bad about you it made you throw up. Do you all get a chance to talk in private?

To me, this is the healthy response... for LG's daughter to be angry with her for not handling the results of accepted abuse very well. Daughter is powerless to make her father stop dishing it out and powerless to make LG stop taking it. It's one thing to think that a person is able to handle it and that they choose to do just that for their own reasons. It's quite another to see them go along with things that they can't handle, like weddings, because it raises the question of what other things they are not able to handle yet are tolerating anyway.

Last edited by LivingWell; 10/16/19 05:31 PM.
Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: Fergie] #444262
10/16/19 06:09 PM
10/16/19 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Fergie
He is the only one who can change his situation. The "his-side-of-the-street" that needs cleaning up is he needs to investigate why he continues to tolerate such abuse where more healthy people would not.

Imho, change in either spouse will bring about some kind of change in the relationship. But it can be hard to understand that the change needs to come from oneself and not by trying to force change in the other person.

Quote
Your mom isn't a victim, she's integral to the problem.

While I could argue that her mom is indeed a victim, I agree that she's integral to the problem. And she's where change needs to happen if she wants the marriage to be different..

Btw, I could also argue that the step-father is a victim as well as being integral to the problem.

I could probably argue that the kids are victims as well as that at least one of them enables their mother in ways that make it possible for her to better tolerate the situation rather than make changes.

Quote
Those tools are only useful for people healthy enough to implement them. Otherwise it's like scraping the barnacles off a sinking boat. In my brother's hands those tools would be useless. And besides, if he ever did try it, my SIL is way too dysfunctional to just go along with it.

Which is why telling others to use certain tools (or to stand up for yourself, leave him, just do this or that) doesn't usually result in them jumping up right away and doing it. Because they are not at the point where they are able.

But that doesn't mean that the tools won't be useful if, first, the person is able to work on developing what is needed in order to be able to use the tools. Imho, too often it's insinuated that someone just doesn't want to do something or likes the hell they are living in. I doubt that is the case most of the time. I was able to use many tools (that were easy for others to pick up right away) after I worked on other skills that were necessary in order to be able to use the tools.


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It would lead inevitably to divorce because one healthy spouse does not stay with an unhealthy spouse.

It really depends on what the other spouse chooses along the way. Personal recovery is a process and there are many ripple effects along the way that others have choices in how to handle them as they come. Sometimes it brings about an enjoyable and strong marriage and sometimes it leads to divorce. Imho, personal recovery work isn't done until there is one of those two outcomes.

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: LivingWell] #444263
10/16/19 08:19 PM
10/16/19 08:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,073
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SmilingWife Offline
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SmilingWife  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2012
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Originally Posted by LivingWell
Originally Posted by SmilingWife
Do you know what it took for him to do that? Me divorcing him. Almost three years to the day after I kicked him ou

And I just think there are some people like that. That really will not change until it is too late.

I'm not convinced that wanting to get back together means that he was willing to change if that were to happen.

My exh was waiting for enough time to pass for everything to be far enough in the past that it wouldn't matter any more. After 10 years, I was finally able to help him understand and accept that it would never happen. He got a gf within 6 months of that after not dating at all since we separated and divorced. He hasn't changed and seems to be very happy with her.


Us getting back together was not a possibility. Both because I didn’t want to and I was married to another man. And if we had gotten back together, there is a pretty big chance he would have reverted to his old ways. But he has changed in the way he treats me. Granted our interactions these days are minimal, but I do see a difference in the wya he treats me. I know he has a girlfriend....in fact this is the second long term ish gf since he and the OW broke up. First gf after the OW break up ended up cheating on him....he was devastated. I asked, gobsmacked how did he think *I* felt....mother of his child, married to him for 26 years. I have no knowledge of his current girlfriend.....or how he treats her. But he treats me very kindly.

Re: My Gratitude Journal [Re: Blair] #444264
10/17/19 01:43 AM
10/17/19 01:43 AM
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Blair Offline
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Blair  Offline
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What is your H's plan to stop punishing you and hurting you? How will he change? Who/what is his sponsor to help him stay in compliance?

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