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Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437123
07/12/18 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Got a report back from the kids. Their weekend together went great. DS really went all out planning events they would both enjoy. Dinner out on Friday. Professional sports game on Saturday. Hike up a mountain on Sunday. They got along well. DD was thrilled that her big brother put so much effort into making the weekend enjoyable for her. He truly cares about her, which is fabulous for both of them.


That is awesome Hold.
That is a true measure of successful parenting.....kids who love each other.

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: SmilingWife] #437129
07/13/18 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by SmilingWife
That is a true measure of successful parenting.....kids who love each other.


Exactly!!!

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437134
07/13/18 05:50 PM
07/13/18 05:50 PM
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holdingontoit Offline OP
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Well, the successful parenting is now out the window. DS's therapist thinks he is a sociopath and wants to commit him to the hospital. DS stayed out by signing a waiver so his therapist could talk to me and Mrs H to determine if DS is a threat to society. I don't think so, and I am far from a knee-jerk apologist for my kids when they behave poorly.

I told DS to see if they will let him try TMS or ECT. I told him to give it a shot now. He can afford to interrupt his life and get back to moving forward later if something goes wrong. I offered to help him financially if he needs help.

I also told him that he can be a sociopath and depressed and yet life is, to me, still worth living. That I have had suicidal thoughts since I was in middle school and I managed to hold down a job, marry and raise kids. And I think he could too. The doctors are worried because they don't think he can hold down a job if he is depressed and sociopathic. and they worry that he will go ballistic when he fails. I told him that maybe they are correct that most depressed sociopaths can't, but he isn't most depressed sociopaths. He got perfect ACT scores without prep. He got good grades in a tough engineering program while being in a frat, partying hard on weekends and scoring with girls. Unlike many of his peers who spent every waking moment studying, he does not need to operate at 110% of his max capacity to function in society. A blessing and a curse.

Mrs H is understandably distraught. We knew he was not feeling well when he was so friendly toward his sister visiting. We did not realize it was this serious. Thank goodness he took our advice and started getting professional help. Thank goodness I called after Anthony Bourdain and Kate Spade and put this issues on the table. At least it is now out in the open. DS and I talked for almost an hour last night. I thanked him for being open with me. I told him that I could never have had such a conversation with my Dad, and that I was honored he would share with me. He said that he imagines I must have been very lonely when I was his age. That he feels lonely where he is living now but at least he has me and his Mom to talk to about this stuff.

Well, I guess God gave me the life I have lived so that I would be here for DS in this moment. If we can get him through this, it will all have been worth it.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437135
07/13/18 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Well, the successful parenting is now out the window. DS's therapist thinks he is a sociopath and wants to commit him to the hospital. DS stayed out by signing a waiver so his therapist could talk to me and Mrs H to determine if DS is a threat to society. I don't think so, and I am far from a knee-jerk apologist for my kids when they behave poorly.

I told DS to see if they will let him try TMS or ECT. I told him to give it a shot now. He can afford to interrupt his life and get back to moving forward later if something goes wrong. I offered to help him financially if he needs help.

I also told him that he can be a sociopath and depressed and yet life is, to me, still worth living. That I have had suicidal thoughts since I was in middle school and I managed to hold down a job, marry and raise kids. And I think he could too. The doctors are worried because they don't think he can hold down a job if he is depressed and sociopathic. and they worry that he will go ballistic when he fails. I told him that maybe they are correct that most depressed sociopaths can't, but he isn't most depressed sociopaths. He got perfect ACT scores without prep. He got good grades in a tough engineering program while being in a frat, partying hard on weekends and scoring with girls. Unlike many of his peers who spent every waking moment studying, he does not need to operate at 110% of his max capacity to function in society. A blessing and a curse.

Mrs H is understandably distraught. We knew he was not feeling well when he was so friendly toward his sister visiting. We did not realize it was this serious. Thank goodness he took our advice and started getting professional help. Thank goodness I called after Anthony Bourdain and Kate Spade and put this issues on the table. At least it is now out in the open. DS and I talked for almost an hour last night. I thanked him for being open with me. I told him that I could never have had such a conversation with my Dad, and that I was honored he would share with me. He said that he imagines I must have been very lonely when I was his age. That he feels lonely where he is living now but at least he has me and his Mom to talk to about this stuff.

Well, I guess God gave me the life I have lived so that I would be here for DS in this moment. If we can get him through this, it will all have been worth it.


WTHeck! I don't understand how being depressed and suicidal means he is a sociopath! This is not making sense to me.
Do you think it would be better if he just came home for a while?

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437136
07/13/18 06:12 PM
07/13/18 06:12 PM
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(((Hugs))) Hold I'm so sorry to hear this, when yesterday was such a good day. What happened that the therapist wants your son committed? How is your son a "threat to society"? Where is your daughter?

OD almost had a breakdown last summer when YD went to visit, and this year said she was better, but the day before YD's visit was over, OD called me early one morning to say she needs help. Is it that they can handle everything, but then the stress of one more person to care for sends them too close to the edge?

The one time my brother was committed, my parents took him to the hospital for care during a dinner at my house, when he started throwing ice at another brother because of things he thought he hear brother's GF saying. I don't understand how this works, I would think he would more comfortable surrounded by family like that.

Does your DS understand his triggers?


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437140
07/13/18 08:34 PM
07/13/18 08:34 PM
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holdingontoit Offline OP
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I don't know all the details. Apparently his therapist thinks he is a sociopath because he doesn't have feelings and has no plans for the future. Heck, everyone here knows I haven't allowed myself to have feelings for other people or plans for the future since 2005.

And yes, I bet there are plenty of people here and at MB who, if I told them between 2002 and 2005 that Mrs H and I would still be married still be sexless in 2018, would have predicted that there is no way that could happen because I would have gone ballistic long before 2018 arrived. Heck, there were plenty of people who posted with me in 2002 who couldn't believe back in 2005 that I was still married to her and hadn't committed suicide.

The therapist is probably aiming to help DS become "normal". I hope that TMS or ECT or some other extreme treatment will work to end his torment. But I am not betting on that working. I am aiming to convince him that life is worth living and the pain is worth enduring even if none of the treatments work. He loves me. His sister loves me. Heck, his mother loves me more now than she did when we got married. And I have been empty and hollow inside (how his therapist described DS) since I became conscious. His therapist does not believe anyone can tolerate living this way. I hope DS does not have to. But I intend to convince him to do it and his therapist that he can.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437143
07/13/18 09:45 PM
07/13/18 09:45 PM
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That sounds like severe depression, not sociopathy. Has he expressed rage or a desire to strike out?

Things I wish I'd insisted Jim try, and now regret having passively left him to arrange his own care (thinking that he was an adult):

ECT
TMS
Ketamine therapy
insisting on anti-anxiety medications for him
taking him to the hospital and not leaving until something was done

I don't know which CA city your boy is in, but if you have an emergency backup need in the LA area, please PM me for details. We can provide a spare room and a hot meal until you can get here should the need arise.


Chrysalis
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: Chrysalis] #437148
07/13/18 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Chrysalis
That sounds like severe depression, not sociopathy. Has he expressed rage or a desire to strike out?

Things I wish I'd insisted Jim try, and now regret having passively left him to arrange his own care (thinking that he was an adult):

ECT
TMS
Ketamine therapy
insisting on anti-anxiety medications for him
taking him to the hospital and not leaving until something was done

I don't know which CA city your boy is in, but if you have an emergency backup need in the LA area, please PM me for details. We can provide a spare room and a hot meal until you can get here should the need arise.



That is awesome Chrysalis.

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437152
07/14/18 01:40 AM
07/14/18 01:40 AM
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holdingontoit Offline OP
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The boy is in Portland OR and as far as we can tell getting competent help.

As you say, I think it sounds more like depression than sociopathy but I am not a professional.

I am hoping that he will not do anything drastic. His mother made it very clear that she has NOT given him permission to end things. I made the same thing clear. We need him alive. We can deal with anything else together. I hope that is enough to dissuade him.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437159
07/14/18 02:02 AM
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Wow, Hold. That doesn't sound at all like a sociopath. Sounds a lot like full blown depression. How soon can you fly out to your son?

Sociopaths cannot he diagnosed without proper testing and meeting criteria. Can you do research on the therapist and see if similar issues have happened previously?

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437160
07/14/18 02:03 AM
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Can you find someone of your faith to go visit your son and stay with him until you can get there?

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437170
07/14/18 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I don't know all the details. Apparently his therapist thinks he is a sociopath because he doesn't have feelings and has no plans for the future. Heck, everyone here knows I haven't allowed myself to have feelings for other people or plans for the future since 2005.


Some of us tried to warn you--eons ago--that the dysfunction which you were modeling in your marriage and in your life would affect your children adversely. You refused to take that into account. He has watched your behavior carefully all that time and grown in that direction.

Quote
And yes, I bet there are plenty of people here and at MB who, if I told them between 2002 and 2005 that Mrs H and I would still be married still be sexless in 2018, would have predicted that there is no way that could happen because I would have gone ballistic long before 2018 arrived. Heck, there were plenty of people who posted with me in 2002 who couldn't believe back in 2005 that I was still married to her and hadn't committed suicide.


We know why you've refused to change anything about your marriage or your life. You've explained to us umpteen times the sick game you are playing and how you are finally "winning" it. Your children have been watching the whole time and absorbing all the undercurrents of rage and resentment.

Quote
The therapist is probably aiming to help DS become "normal". I hope that TMS or ECT or some other extreme treatment will work to end his torment. But I am not betting on that working. I am aiming to convince him that life is worth living and the pain is worth enduring even if none of the treatments work. He loves me. His sister loves me. Heck, his mother loves me more now than she did when we got married. And I have been empty and hollow inside (how his therapist described DS) since I became conscious. His therapist does not believe anyone can tolerate living this way. I hope DS does not have to. But I intend to convince him to do it and his therapist that he can.


I hope his therapy works. But you've modeled your example for a lifetime. Your children can't help but be affected by what they've seen in their parents' lives and marriage. He is young though, so there is hope. Perhaps you could rush to him and turn over a new leaf (start showing him how to live an honest and authentic life). I think that would work better than telling him to white-knuckle through a lifetime of pain because you said so.

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437178
07/14/18 04:02 PM
07/14/18 04:02 PM
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Hold, I have a different perspective that I would like to share with you. However, I recently ceased posting to another thread that also involved a topic that I am passionate about and have experience with because that passion came out in an offensive manner to others. So, I will think long and hard about how to say what I want to share with you and get back to you.

In the meantime, please don’t internalize everything to the point that another’s perspective and experience cannot be heard or considered.


ETA in case it takes awhile for me to get back to you: This is not something you caused. You have positioned yourself well so that your son has opportunity to deal with what could be genetic in ways that you didn’t have yourself. That can make a tremendous difference not just for his life but for the lives of his own children. Your role/job will change with grandchild(ren) but will be influential in important ways... ways that someone without your experience (and genetics) cannot provide.

Last edited by LivingWell; 07/14/18 04:13 PM.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437185
07/14/18 05:47 PM
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Hold is it most certainly not something you should be beating yourself up over. You have done the best you can with some bad cards and some good ones.

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437199
07/16/18 03:28 AM
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How is your DS doing, Hold?

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437203
07/16/18 02:00 PM
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I would get a second opinion, Hold, that's a diagnosis I wouldn't take just from one person...

Mg


M:1990 DD:July2017 In Recovery DS16 DS14
O wad some Power the giftie gie us To see oursels as ithers see us! -- Robert Burns
If you're going through hell, keep going. -- Winston Churchill
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437206
07/16/18 03:24 PM
07/16/18 03:24 PM
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holdingontoit Offline OP
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Thanks everyone for your concern.

We had a long talk yesterday. He is not in a great place.

He is considering various therapies. I told him not to allow cost to be a deterrent.

I also told him not to have the test of success or failure be whether he becomes "happy". That is, I don't want him to feel that, if his therapist runs out of new ideas to try to become "happy", that he ought to kill himself since life is not worth living if you cannot get to "happy". He agrees that happiness is not the goal. The goal is to reduce the pain and sense of hopelessness. To get to a place where the pressure of life is less of a burden.

I am actually hopeful that ketamine, TMS or ECT may help him. He has been approved for everything. He just needs to decide to spend the money and take the time off work. I have been encouraging him to do so while he is young and has few responsibilities and he can always go to grad school to get back onto the "treadmill" if he needs to take some time off. Not that he ever needs to get back on the treadmill if he doesn't want to. But I don't want him to think that doing ECT and needing time off to heal is fatal to his work prospects so that it feels "over" if it doesn't work. I want him to feel he has options no matter how the treatments work out. We shall see what he decides to try next.

Last edited by holdingontoit; 07/16/18 03:24 PM.

Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437220
07/17/18 01:26 AM
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Sounds like there is hope for a brighter future. Thanks for updating us.

Is your son getting enough sleep? Is he eating right? Has he been tested for Vitamin D-3, B-12, and low thyroid issues? (Those deficiencies mimic depression too.)

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437231
07/17/18 03:16 PM
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Thanks for the suggestions. We are waiting to be contacted by his psychiatrist. They made DS sign a HIPAA waiver as a condition of not being hospitalized. So we assume we will hear from his psychiatrist this week. If not, we will ask DS for permission to call his psychiatrist ourselves.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437275
07/20/18 03:11 AM
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Hoping for the best for you and your DS. I’m confident that you will be the family rock that you’ve always been. Please continue to lean on us for strength.

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437277
07/20/18 12:45 PM
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I am a big believer in a person's innate need to be 'something.' Why I think this generation's in a lot of trouble. Why? Because 90% of what/who they are is superficial. They have nothing to back their 'value' on other than what people think of them. Why I think boot camps are good for kids run amok - they are forced to ACCOMPLISH something, even if they're not a willing participant. My guess is he believes his 'spot' on earth isn't being held by anyone worthy of taking up that space. Is there any way the two of you can take a week or two off this summer or this fall and just go somewhere? If you have some land, go there and build a shed. If you have access to a lake, go there and learn how to fly fish or something. If none of that, then just go hiking/camping from one major location to another. Help him ACCOMPLISH something, and that emptiness in his soul will start to be filled with stuff he knows he did, he's capable of, he accomplished.

I know a kid (back then) who my DD28 dated in high school; rich kid, snotty, never did anything of value but spend his dad's money. When they graduated, he bought a bicycle and supplies, and rode that back all the way from the Gulf Coast to Canada. He ended up disheveled, sick, and weak, but he made it. And had a LOT of solitary time to think about things. When he came home, he came out and started the journey to becoming a woman (who he now is).

I'm not trying to say that's your son's issue, of course. Just that him accomplishing something, bucking the norm, getting away from expectations, that allowed him to be honest with himself, and to figure out what really matters to him.

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437281
07/20/18 05:02 PM
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holdingontoit Offline OP
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Thanks Cat. I think you have a good idea. Not sure what would help DS feel he accomplished something. I am guessing if I asked he would say there is nothing.

If you had asked me at his age, I would have said "have lots of sex with a woman I don't have to pay to do it". Not sure that doing it would have helped, but not doing it sure left me broken.

I think the problem is that there is nothing that DS wants to accomplish. I am the one who fears he can't. He has confidence he could if he tried, but he can't summon the energy to try because he doesn't care if he accomplishes anything or not. He made All-State academics in basketball his senior year, got into a top ten engineering school, graduated on time despite being in a fraternity and having more of a social life and more of a sex life than almost any other engineer, got a great job, moved himself to the other side of the country and got a great performance review after his first year working. If he does not feel that any of that was an accomplishment (and he doesn't - although maybe it just isn't what he finds important), I am not sure what I can suggest that would help. If he doesn't want to be an engineer, doesn't want to work in an office, and wants to be a farmer or a logger or a plumber or a woodworker, we are all for that. I will make sure he knows that.

But we have been telling him his whole life that we love him no matter what and he doesn't have to follow any particular path for us to love him. Still, something to raise in our next conversation. Thanks for giving me food for thought.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437283
07/20/18 08:08 PM
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Well, that's why I suggested that you go get him and take him somewhere. Depressed people aren't very good at getting themselves out of it. They need help. Be his help.

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437285
07/21/18 01:17 AM
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A beautiful, restful week would be down to Ashland to take in the Shakespeare Festival, on to the Redwoods and then to Redding, turn around and repeat. There's a cave tour somewhere along there.The forest is so healing. Conversely, it's less than a day up to the rain forest in Olympic National Park. There's a nice lodge at Lake Quinault and another at Kalaloch. Amazing hiking in the rain forest, and then a sandy beach with giant driftwood. That could be done in a long weekend.


Chrysalis
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #437289
07/21/18 03:44 AM
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I would also suggest a weekend of activity, rock climbing, hiking, run a marathon, etc. Something to get him moving and be involved.

Does your son have life goals for 5 years, 10 years, and going forward? Where does he want to be then? Who does he want to be in 10 or 20 years?

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