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Re: Miracles happen [Re: Orchid2] #424745
06/15/17 08:53 PM
06/15/17 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: Orchid2
Originally Posted By: Chrysalis
I'm so happy for all this positive news from you.


See, now this is 'what friends are for'. smile

Hugz 2 u all.


Yes, what they said!


A happy marriage is a long conversation which always seems too short. --Andre Maurois

Re: Miracles happen [Re: wiser_now] #424803
06/17/17 09:55 PM
06/17/17 09:55 PM
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LadyGrey Offline OP
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I think I'm in post crisis let down. I've been on an adrenaline fest since March 29. My brain doesn't want to work. I don't want to talk to anyone who doesn't want to talk about the fact that John is STILL outrageously, inexplicably, intolerably DEAD and Mike is alive and what does that even mean?

[Bleep!] is John dead? How did that even happen? My brother and his wife Meg are the finest of people who do great things for the community, they have three lovely sons who have struggled with different issues and successfully overcome them, and now they have two.

I don't know who to blame. The psychiatrist told Mike and Meg to get the guns out of the house, and Mike thought that was unnecessary and Meg couldn't find anyone who would take them for storage, including the very small local police force.

I wonder what that feels like to have a mom say, "please, mr police man take these guns out of my house to keep my son safe" and then 12 days later respond to the call to that address that a 27 year old male shot himself in the family den.

What do you do with that? It seems it is childishly easy to get a gun in Texas, but more difficult to get them out of the house on a short term basis. This feels like a solvable problem -- have the police station provide check in lockers. Might be used for any number of reasons -- small children visiting, a depressed drunken relative staying for the holidays, lack of space or resources to have a proper gun safe.

I think I might be a tiny bit mad at Mike and Meg. John's room looks like an arsenal. Guns and ammunition everywhere. Clinically depressed child who has tried multiple anti-depressant regimes with varying degrees of success. What could possibly go wrong?

Then I think about the courage involved in their honesty -- admitting they were told to get the guns out of the house -- I stand in awe. I would take that secret to my grave, yet it was the very first thing my brother told me with an insanely terrified look in his eye as if to say "this really can't be happening."

When I think over my life to the times I have seen the face of God in my fellow man, his face is the first image I will recall.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Miracles happen [Re: LadyGrey] #424804
06/18/17 02:26 AM
06/18/17 02:26 AM
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I think I'm in post crisis let down. I've been on an adrenaline fest since March 29. My brain doesn't want to work. I don't want to talk to anyone who doesn't want to talk about the fact that John is STILL outrageously, inexplicably, intolerably DEAD and Mike is alive and what does that even mean?

[Bleep!] is John dead? How did that even happen? My brother and his wife Meg are the finest of people who do great things for the community, they have three lovely sons who have struggled with different issues and successfully overcome them, and now they have two.

I don't know who to blame. The psychiatrist told Mike and Meg to get the guns out of the house, and Mike thought that was unnecessary and Meg couldn't find anyone who would take them for storage, including the very small local police force.

I wonder what that feels like to have a mom say, "please, mr police man take these guns out of my house to keep my son safe" and then 12 days later respond to the call to that address that a 27 year old male shot himself in the family den.

What do you do with that? It seems it is childishly easy to get a gun in Texas, but more difficult to get them out of the house on a short term basis. This feels like a solvable problem -- have the police station provide check in lockers. Might be used for any number of reasons -- small children visiting, a depressed drunken relative staying for the holidays, lack of space or resources to have a proper gun safe.

I think I might be a tiny bit mad at Mike and Meg. John's room looks like an arsenal. Guns and ammunition everywhere. Clinically depressed child who has tried multiple anti-depressant regimes with varying degrees of success. What could possibly go wrong?

Then I think about the courage involved in their honesty -- admitting they were told to get the guns out of the house -- I stand in awe. I would take that secret to my grave, yet it was the very first thing my brother told me with an insanely terrified look in his eye as if to say "this really can't be happening."

When I think over my life to the times I have seen the face of God in my fellow man, his face is the first image I will recall.


I am so sorry. The entire thing is horrifying.

Re: Miracles happen [Re: SmilingWife] #424808
06/18/17 08:08 PM
06/18/17 08:08 PM
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LG that is so tragic. Have you heard of Griefshare? There was a local group and my church and it was a great comfort to be able to grieve with folks in the same shoes as I was. While you are still remote, they have daily emails as well. I learned that grief was work, too. But it gets better.


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: Miracles happen [Re: SmilingWife] #424809
06/18/17 08:45 PM
06/18/17 08:45 PM
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Orchid2 Online
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Hi LG,

I'm sorry you are dealing with this tragedy but grateful that you are there for your brother and his family. Life pulls us together at times and for that we should be grateful.

Also that you are sharing this with us. Please realize that we are there for you and since you are sharing it us, it is helping many of us reflect and realize how easily this could also happen to ourselves and those around us.

We are learning from this experience.

What sticks in my heart is that John's family was in a bit of denial during his depressive state at several levels. Teaches us that if we don't pay attention, we could be doing the same to ourselves and those around us.

The positive piece is that through this tragedy, your brother and SIL are willing to admit where they misjudged their circumstances. It is not about blame but about recognition. There is a difference. Learning from this may well prevent other tragedies.

Hugz to you, your immediate and extended families. They do need your love and support to guide them through this hazy times. In turn, we are here for you and you are here for us. Throw in our prayers of support and you have an ongoing circle of support to help sustain you and your family. That aid is partial but it can also be powerful.

Thank you for sharing,
Orchid

Re: Miracles happen [Re: Orchid2] #424812
06/19/17 02:48 AM
06/19/17 02:48 AM
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I'm sorry for what your family is going through, Lady Grey.

Who to blame happens to all of the survivors of suicide. I mostly blamed myself when my ex committed suicide. I knew he was depressed, tried to get him to seek help, and he refused over a period of months. I did talk to his only son and asked him to remove his father's gun collection. My step-son did that.

My stepson blamed himself for not doing more to help his father. He had a family and was working lots of overtime. He didn't realize how bad things were.

My step-daughter blamed herself because she was living with her father when he committed suicide and feels that she enabled him.

His twin brother feels guilty because he said he had no idea that his brother was depressed. For years after my ex died, his brother blamed me for not contacting him about my fears.

None of us will ever get an answer to the question.

Here, in Oceanside, CA, we've had a rash of young men from 17 to 22 doing suicide by train. There's been around 8 in the last 3 months. There's always a way...


"I feel sad that I focused so much on his potential and so little on mine."
Re: Miracles happen [Re: believer] #424994
06/23/17 02:00 AM
06/23/17 02:00 AM
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LadyGrey Offline OP
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Mike is home. I can't quite believe what I witnessed with my very own eyes and mind and soul.

It's hard for me to write this stuff sometimes -- did I just throw dear Mike and Meg under the bus here? I sure as hell hope not because I have been suicidal and I know with certainty that I would have found a way.

In actual fact, I would have looked on any attempt to frustrate my goal as an insult to my intelligence and for sure found a way.

There you go -- you learned something about me at the exact same moment I learned something about me.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Miracles happen [Re: LadyGrey] #424995
06/23/17 02:23 AM
06/23/17 02:23 AM
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Miranda Offline
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LG

I know what you mean, when you've made that decision you'll figure out a way.

I'm so relieved to hear your brother is recovering so fast.


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: Miracles happen [Re: Miranda] #424998
06/23/17 12:05 PM
06/23/17 12:05 PM
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LivingWell Offline
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LG, it's a common thing for others to make suicide attempts when there has been a successful one. So if it's sounding like it could be a good idea for you.....

Unlike Miranda, I don't think that once the decision has been made that a way will be found.... because I couldn't find one. After much thought, I believed that I had found a way to do it without traumatizing whoever would take responsibility for removing my body but when I ran my plan by someone to make sure that I hadn't missed anything... yep, I had missed something.

I'm pretty sure that eventually I would have come up with a good enough plan if it were not for this....

Through the person I ran my plan by, I got an opportunity to talk to a counselor whose specialty was children of parents who suicided. The information I got from her about the effects on those left behind... especially children of different ages including those well into adulthood.... is the reason that I came to the conclusion that I would just have to suck it up and continue living no matter what. That left me despondent for a bit and it was years before I actually felt like I wanted to continue living.

With the hindsight that I have now, I recognize that experiencing that very dark and desolate place was a necessary part of my path to healing. I am eternally grateful that I was more concerned about those who I would be leaving than I was about myself.

LG, if you have even a fleeting thought, I urge you to visit a counselor who deals with the aftermath so that you have complete information in your decision making process.

And, my dear, sweet Lady Gray, I urge you to suck it up and continue living. No matter what. No matter how long it takes to learn all the reasons why it was and is a good idea.

Re: Miracles happen [Re: LivingWell] #425007
06/23/17 01:32 PM
06/23/17 01:32 PM
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Miranda Offline
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Ah, LW, you TALKED to someone... and that made all the difference.

That tiny little act of reaching out in the darkness, it's so powerful, you have no idea. That's the one that's saved me over and over and over again. Without my even realizing it most of the time.

I agree with everything you've said here though. You're so very wise. And kind.

LG, listen to LW, she's got better things to say than I do about this.


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: Miracles happen [Re: Miranda] #425013
06/23/17 02:22 PM
06/23/17 02:22 PM
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LivingWell Offline
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Miranda, I'm not sure that it's wisdom. It's just my experience.

Thanks so much for your kind and encouraging words. You have no idea how many posts I start and delete because I think they're stupid. I almost didn't post this one to LG. I think that it might be the feeling of overwhelming gratitude for seeing how my previous work is affecting real change for next generations in my family that is making me hit the submit button more than the delete one. Thanks again for your kind encouragement.

Re: Miracles happen [Re: LivingWell] #425065
06/25/17 03:18 AM
06/25/17 03:18 AM
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LadyGrey Offline OP
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I'm so grateful to you all I don't know what to say.

I can say with certainty that I will never consider suicide again or suggest in any way that is a viable option for me.

I know in a way I couldn't have ever before the absolute hell that follows for everyone else.

I feel like God threw me off of my path of making sure *I* did everything *I* could to ensure that Trump is either impeached or has no hope of having a second term, and, in particular, the AHCA.

I need not tell you what and how I think about the AHCA.

I thought that was my calling -- my purpose -- and then John died and Mike tried to die and I find I don't much care. If the idiot voters of this country want to give it away to an evil, narcisstic wanta-be king who am I to stop them?

And why do I even care? I won't have health insurance but so what? Why am I so entitled? Lots of places in the world doesn't have meaningful access to health care much less insurance against health crisis.

It doesn't matter how strongly I feel or how crappy the Republicans are going to be for my life because I don't have the one thing everyone in politics needs:\\\$$$


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Miracles happen [Re: LadyGrey] #425066
06/25/17 03:33 AM
06/25/17 03:33 AM
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Miranda Offline
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I'm glad to see you say this LG

I'm sorry you had to go so through such horror to get to this place where you feel this way but I'm glad you do.


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: Miracles happen [Re: LadyGrey] #425096
06/26/17 11:29 AM
06/26/17 11:29 AM
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Utah
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I've been listening to a book called "Option B: Facing Adversity, Building Resilience and Finding Joy " by Sheryl Sandberg to be really helpful in being with friends going thru tremendous trials and loss.

A lifetime ago I used to work in a psychiatric hospital. One of my bosses was writing his dissertation on locus of control. There is so much that can be done. I was just reading a news story about a family who built a ranch to help girls after they lost their daughter to depression and suicide. Utah family turns grief into purpose by opening ranch to help young girls
https://www.ksl.com/?sid=44787818


Consider that we don't have to live with the consequences of our advice in your life. Act according to what you can live with!
Re: Miracles happen [Re: LadyGrey] #425098
06/26/17 12:43 PM
06/26/17 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I'm so grateful to you all I don't know what to say.

I can say with certainty that I will never consider suicide again or suggest in any way that is a viable option for me.

I know in a way I couldn't have ever before the absolute hell that follows for everyone else.

I feel like God threw me off of my path of making sure *I* did everything *I* could to ensure that Trump is either impeached or has no hope of having a second term, and, in particular, the AHCA.

I need not tell you what and how I think about the AHCA.

I thought that was my calling -- my purpose -- and then John died and Mike tried to die and I find I don't much care. If the idiot voters of this country want to give it away to an evil, narcisstic wanta-be king who am I to stop them?

And why do I even care? I won't have health insurance but so what? Why am I so entitled? Lots of places in the world doesn't have meaningful access to health care much less insurance against health crisis.

It doesn't matter how strongly I feel or how crappy the Republicans are going to be for my life because I don't have the one thing everyone in politics needs:\\\$$$



I have felt that shift of purpose---of existence even--it is an amazing feeling to have such a burden lifted. I am glad for you LG......so sorry for the loss you are feeling,,but happy yo can let go of the other.

Last edited by SmilingWife; 06/26/17 12:44 PM.
Re: Miracles happen [Re: SmilingWife] #425101
06/26/17 01:19 PM
06/26/17 01:19 PM
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I'm glad you're here with us, LG. We need you.

Sometimes I feel like we're in the same position as Little John in the old Disney Robin Hood cartoon where he says, "Who's driving this flying umbrella?" The current political mess has effects on our physical, mental, emotional, and financial well-being.

Re: Miracles happen [Re: Blair] #425488
07/01/17 11:06 PM
07/01/17 11:06 PM
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There are too many of us here who know the kind of despair that leads someone to attempt suicide. The kind of pain that's left behind is devastating, even if the attempt is not successful.

It's a powerful narrative you're sharing... and brave, too. Thank you. We all learn from each other.

You're obviously very loved... it feels good, doesn't it?


A happy marriage is a long conversation which always seems too short. --Andre Maurois

Re: Miracles happen [Re: wiser_now] #426889
07/26/17 03:42 AM
07/26/17 03:42 AM
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LadyGrey Offline OP
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John is still dead. I can't come up with a single thing that softens the starkness of that.

His autopsy report, which I have mixed feelings about knowing about, reflects that he died from a single gunshot to the head. I don't know what to do with that. "At least he didn't suffer" seems flat stupid because the suffering he left behind is so frigging huge.

My brother Mike tried to die again with a bleeding ulcer that required 7 pints of blood. His take --and he knows what he is talking about -- is that a a fair percentage of people who are intubated for a long time develop bleeding ulcers. Who knew?

I'm at odds with my husband over where my boundaries are. Do I stay here with him or go take care of my family? It is a hideous place to be.

And we are back to the status quo ante where he is commuting to Houston and I am left here alone,

Nothing ever changes, not really,


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Miracles happen [Re: LadyGrey] #426894
07/26/17 05:16 AM
07/26/17 05:16 AM
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It hurts because you loved him. Because he was real. He was a precious and valued individual. Because you didn't want him to leave and because he didn't know of his real value in this life. And that part is heart=breaking. He left a huge hole in your heart. You would have done anything to keep him safe and feeling loved.

The pain of losing a loved one lessens slightly over time. Not much, but a wee bit. I can't tell you he's in a better place. But I don't think John would want you to feel hurt and pain.

In regards to your family, you do what YOU want to do and what YOU feel you must do. Your H does not need you to take care of him. He can behave like an adult and take care of himself. And if you feel you need to be with your family, you should go. My mom and dad always supported the other when it came to extended family. Always. My dad cheerfully did all the house duties and his full-time job while my Mom drove 6 hours one way to spend time taking care of her parents. Both of my parents said it was worth every minute that they could spend with them. If your family is like that, spend every minute you can. And don't look back. Because this is also about you, and what you need. Hugs, sweetie.

Re: Miracles happen [Re: Blair] #426899
07/26/17 12:48 PM
07/26/17 12:48 PM
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If you're left alone, why bother staying?

Re: Miracles happen [Re: catperson] #426901
07/26/17 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: catperson
If you're left alone, why bother staying?


This is what I was thinking. Just go be where you want to be.

Re: Miracles happen [Re: SmilingWife] #426902
07/26/17 01:44 PM
07/26/17 01:44 PM
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Miranda Offline
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Exactly. You don't have to be sitting at home "keeping things nice" for the moment of his arrival or whatever.

F that shinola! You're not a handmaiden. You're an independent being with an agenda and priorities of your own. Go live your life!


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: Miracles happen [Re: Miranda] #426933
07/27/17 03:18 AM
07/27/17 03:18 AM
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LadyGrey Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Miranda
Exactly. You don't have to be sitting at home "keeping things nice" for the moment of his arrival or whatever.

F that shinola! You're not a handmaiden. You're an independent being with an agenda and priorities of your own. Go live your life!


That never occurred to me as a possible outcome. I've been doing this so long it is all I know how to do.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Miracles happen [Re: LadyGrey] #426934
07/27/17 03:40 AM
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LG, if nothing else, when HE is gone, YOU are gone. Ok?

Re: Miracles happen [Re: LadyGrey] #426935
07/27/17 03:55 AM
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Miranda Offline
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Originally Posted By: Miranda
Exactly. You don't have to be sitting at home "keeping things nice" for the moment of his arrival or whatever.

F that shinola! You're not a handmaiden. You're an independent being with an agenda and priorities of your own. Go live your life!


That never occurred to me as a possible outcome. I've been doing this so long it is all I know how to do.


I know, sweetie. That's why I said that. Because I could tell it hadn't occurred to you. It would never have occurred to me either, once upon a time.


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
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