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Tangent thread: Responsibility......... #413728
09/08/16 08:32 PM
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I found the following post fascinating and didn't want to throw the other thread off topic so I'd like to post and get your comments here:

Originally Posted By: SFB
.....5. Your XH did not get more responsible because you divorced him, he got more responsible because he had too. You were taking care of these things for him, (natural in a marriage...we each have the roles that work in our marriages) and now, he did......


Made me think, responsibility. We all know we are tasked with it but why do some feel they only need to comply when forced whilst others are compelled to do so out of need. Maybe there are other categories? Should there even be categories?

Is this one of the reasons why relationships stifle or fail or flourish?

So many questions, so little time....... wink

Orchid

Re: Tangent thread: Responsibility......... [Re: Orchid2] #413732
09/09/16 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted By: Orchid2
I found the following post fascinating and didn't want to throw the other thread off topic so I'd like to post and get your comments here:

Originally Posted By: SFB
.....5. Your XH did not get more responsible because you divorced him, he got more responsible because he had too. You were taking care of these things for him, (natural in a marriage...we each have the roles that work in our marriages) and now, he did......


Made me think, responsibility. We all know we are tasked with it but why do some feel they only need to comply when forced whilst others are compelled to do so out of need. Maybe there are other categories? Should there even be categories?

Is this one of the reasons why relationships stifle or fail or flourish?

So many questions, so little time....... wink

Orchid


Yes, definitely. Categories or specific areas of responsibilities in the marriage is helpful, I think. Responsibility or lack of responsibility, I believe plays a significant role in the overall health of our relationships, including marriage.

All relationships are built on a foundation of TRUST as a component. So what is "trust"?
As a noun, it's a firm belief in the reliability, truth, ability, or strength of someone. Etc.

Here's where is gets tricky in the POSITIVES and NEGATIVE interpretation of actions. For example, I know that my son is responsible at school and will get good grades, I can also trust he won't take out the garbage, which is a lack of responsibility. This causes both good and bad feelings in our relationship.

"Love is a combination of care, commitment, knowledge, responsibility, respect and trust. "

Since LOVE is a complex emotion or state of being, it's a darn good thing I love my son so much or the frustration of his lack of responsibility of taking out the trash for YEARS could really harm our relationship. I could negatively interprete that his lack of concern (in this specific area) really meant lack of love for me overall, and I could "disown" the young lad. Which isn't the case... He just hates the garbage, but still loves his mom- this is positive interpretation. (DS18, is a remarkable young man who works hard in most areas of his life. Eagle Scout 104 merit badges)

"Responsibilities are given to him on whom trust rests. Responsibility is always a sign of trust."

I'd like to hear what others think on this subject.

Re: Tangent thread: Responsibility......... [Re: Roxanne] #413743
09/09/16 04:47 AM
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Wow, excellent post Rox. smile

Like you, I'm also interested in feedback on this topic. Responsibility, trust, relationships......a deeper topic that needs our focus.

Re: Tangent thread: Responsibility......... [Re: Orchid2] #413749
09/09/16 02:53 PM
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Quote:
We all know we are tasked with it but why do some feel they only need to comply when forced whilst others are compelled to do so out of need.


There are healthy forms of responsibility---and unhealthy forms too. Responsibility is like everything else--in overabundance the positive nature of it can become negative. I have a tendency to feel responsible for things that I shouldn't---thus enabling others to be less responsible--which is bad for both of us.


"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: Tangent thread: Responsibility......... [Re: star*fish] #413766
09/10/16 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: star*fish
There are healthy forms of responsibility---and unhealthy forms too. Responsibility is like everything else--in overabundance the positive nature of it can become negative. I have a tendency to feel responsible for things that I shouldn't---thus enabling others to be less responsible--which is bad for both of us.


Interesting and I can relate. Is that the giver in us that helps create these co-dependent relationships? For example, a parent cares, looks out for and teaches their children but as their child matures, how does the parent know how to adjust their parenting? Parents start out feeding their baby, as they grow to a toddler the parent lets the child feed themselves but may still serve and cut their food. Growing further the parent allows the child to serve and cut their own food, eventually putting their own dishes in the sink, washing them, learning how to set the table, cook and serve the food. Least we'd like to think it is that easy.

But when a parent doesn't want to relinquish any of those steps and stifles their child's growth, who suffers? We know it's both the child and the parent. Still don't we often see that when healthy responsibility isn't taught life becomes a challenge.

Some of us form relationships with persons who have problems with various aspects of responsibilities. We marry or develop relationships with such ones and it can certainly turn one's life upside down, for years.

It isn't easy to see up front either. For me, I addressed similar issues with my H before we got married. He said what sounded at the time to be all the right things (agreement) but in reality he didn't or couldn't have known the degree of responsibility he was signing up for. So when the responsibilities of marriage, family and life became his, instead of working together as a couple, he turned introverted and well......the environment to have an A was ripe.

I certainly don't want my son or others I care for who still have so much of their lives ahead of them to go through what we've been through. I'm hoping threads like this will help us learn together how to make better decisions and choices as we move forward.

So many lessons I have learned over the years, would have been better if I learned them earlier and maybe not with so much personal experience. wink

jmo,
Orchid

Re: Tangent thread: Responsibility......... [Re: Orchid2] #413810
09/12/16 05:16 AM
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"So many lessons I have learned over the years, would have been better if I learned them earlier and maybe not with so much personal experience."

Sigh...

Re: Tangent thread: Responsibility......... [Re: Sonnambula] #413908
09/15/16 09:12 PM
09/15/16 09:12 PM
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I think it's interesting that "finding oneself" is considered a better reason for leaving a marriage than infidelity. It seems worse to me in a way. I would love to see people figure out a way to find themselves within the structure of their marriage rather than following the belief that being who they are, requires them to walk away.

Frank Pittman died a few years ago, but some of his quotes about marriage are still my favorites:

Quote:
There is this great belief that if you are not getting everything your heart desires, you will be miserable. This is a dangerous belief. The failure to be blessed with a life that is a constant state of ecstatic wonder becomes a psychiatric emergency. All the mental health people jump in and say, 'Oh, my God! They are not happy. Call the fire department! Maybe these people should not have gotten married. Sorry about the kids and all. Maybe they should not have gotten married. Maybe we will have to get them divorced so maybe they can be happy with the 2nd, the 3rd, the 4th or the 5th husband or wife.' I look at these people who are miserable in their marriages and their lives, and I think, 'I have the responsibility to them, to make them aware that they have the capacity to bring about their adult selves and that they have a responsibility to their children that is going to affect the second half of their life enormously if they do not fulfill it. Maybe I have got a responsibility to the two other people that these folks would marry next if they do not learn how to be married the first time around.'


Quote:
"Marriage is not supposed to make you happy. It is supposed to make you married, and once you are safely and totally married, then you have a structure of security and support from which you are free to make yourself happy, rather than wasting your adulthood looking for a structure."


"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: Tangent thread: Responsibility......... [Re: star*fish] #413909
09/15/16 09:25 PM
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I totally agree with your post & quotes. thumbsup

It's those who intentionally mislead others that really irritates me. angry

Marriage isn't a one way street. To become a WS one has to relinquish the very premise of marriage. To do after creating a life & responsibilities with a spouse & family is cruel. No excuse should justify that.

jmo,
Orchid

Re: Tangent thread: Responsibility......... [Re: star*fish] #413915
09/16/16 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted By: star*fish
I think it's interesting that "finding oneself" is considered a better reason for leaving a marriage than infidelity. It seems worse to me in a way. I would love to see people figure out a way to find themselves within the structure of their marriage rather than following the belief that being who they are, requires them to walk away.

Frank Pittman died a few years ago, but some of his quotes about marriage are still my favorites:

Quote:
There is this great belief that if you are not getting everything your heart desires, you will be miserable. This is a dangerous belief. The failure to be blessed with a life that is a constant state of ecstatic wonder becomes a psychiatric emergency. All the mental health people jump in and say, 'Oh, my God! They are not happy. Call the fire department! Maybe these people should not have gotten married. Sorry about the kids and all. Maybe they should not have gotten married. Maybe we will have to get them divorced so maybe they can be happy with the 2nd, the 3rd, the 4th or the 5th husband or wife.' I look at these people who are miserable in their marriages and their lives, and I think, 'I have the responsibility to them, to make them aware that they have the capacity to bring about their adult selves and that they have a responsibility to their children that is going to affect the second half of their life enormously if they do not fulfill it. Maybe I have got a responsibility to the two other people that these folks would marry next if they do not learn how to be married the first time around.'


Quote:
"Marriage is not supposed to make you happy. It is supposed to make you married, and once you are safely and totally married, then you have a structure of security and support from which you are free to make yourself happy, rather than wasting your adulthood looking for a structure."



Awesome post Star.

Re: Tangent thread: Responsibility......... [Re: SmilingWife] #413928
09/16/16 03:22 PM
09/16/16 03:22 PM
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Leaving the marriage to find myself makes perfect sense to me. So much of my behavior is dedicated towards avoiding my husband's anger and criticism. I decided about a year ago to live my life such that he has little or nothing to criticize me about. I'm not perfect of course, but things sure calmed down when I returned to that mindset. The only thing I won't budge on is my medications --he doesn't approve of AD'S and that's just too damn bad.

It's all well and good and true to note the responsibility a spouse has to a marriage, but one also has a responsibility to oneself. If one spouse isn't giving the other the room to grow and change and explore, perhaps the responsibility to oneself trumps the responsibility to the marriage.

I'm struck by the fact that this discussion has ignored the obligation of the staying spouse to offer the fleeing spouse a healthy, safe environment in which to live and grow.

Perhaps for some people the structure of being single is a more supportive environment for self actualization and self care.

Last edited by LadyGrey; 09/16/16 03:23 PM.

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Re: Tangent thread: Responsibility......... [Re: LadyGrey] #413932
09/17/16 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Leaving the marriage to find myself makes perfect sense to me. So much of my behavior is dedicated towards avoiding my husband's anger and criticism. I decided about a year ago to live my life such that he has little or nothing to criticize me about. I'm not perfect of course, but things sure calmed down when I returned to that mindset. The only thing I won't budge on is my medications --he doesn't approve of AD'S and that's just too damn bad.


Orchid: If one is seeking that as a genuine goal. I think when we hear that as an excuse it undermines those who truly do need to leave a marriage to find themselves. Maybe those who were married at a young age and went from their parents home to their spouse's house. No time to learn and grow.

It is a given that most of us mature after we were married. That in itself though doesn't justify those we've seen leave all and claim it is in a quest to 'find themselves'.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
It's all well and good and true to note the responsibility a spouse has to a marriage, but one also has a responsibility to oneself. If one spouse isn't giving the other the room to grow and change and explore, perhaps the responsibility to oneself trumps the responsibility to the marriage.


Orchid: Yes, one should balance responsibility. Us givers are just too generous with our time and when the clock only ticks forward, we often lose 'our time' only to reflect years later of what should have been.

Maybe we should have a discussion to help the many of us who need to balance out our giver and taker sides.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I'm struck by the fact that this discussion has ignored the obligation of the staying spouse to offer the fleeing spouse a healthy, safe environment in which to live and grow.


Orchid: Ok, let's have this discussion. I'm not sure how to proceed.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Perhaps for some people the structure of being single is a more supportive environment for self actualization and self care.


Orchid: Probably but in the long term, what does that all mean?

FYI: I appreciate the feedback. Sometimes I'm at a loss at the lack of responsibility some display. Whether if it is between couples, parents and children, family R, co-workers, neighbors, friends, society in general, etc. so much is tossed away in these times. Life is treated with disrespect and so callously. frown

I want this to be a learning thread because, at least for me, I've still got a lot to learn. wink

Orchid

Re: Tangent thread: Responsibility......... [Re: Orchid2] #413936
09/17/16 03:03 PM
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Orchid, I'm not talking about wholesale abandonment like we have seen with some posters here. That's abusive.

I think it is pretty simple to be a supportive spouse: be nice. That's it.

Or, to look at it another way, what characteristics do you look for in your friends? For me, acceptance is number one. I don't have a single friend who wants to "fix" me like my husband does. Empathy, laughter, an appreciation for the absurdity of life, reliability, respect for our differences and a sense of adventure are characteristics that my friends share.

My psychiatrist says my husband should treat me like he treats his best friend's wife. If he wouldn't say it to his best friend's wife he shouldn't say it to me.

In my observation there are some men who want a Stepford Wife. We have had a few posters here that IMO fall in that category. They are less interested in creating a fundamentally honest and supportive relationship than they are in maintaining the illusion of perfection or something close to it.

For all we know, the woman whose fact pattern gave rise to this thread has been living a Stepford Wife existence. To the extent that one's own values are consistent with that role, it is sustainable, if exhausting. But there may come a point where the woman legitimately wants to explore who they are and that may not be possible in the tight confines of such a marriage.

Last edited by LadyGrey; 09/17/16 03:05 PM.

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Re: Tangent thread: Responsibility......... [Re: LadyGrey] #413947
09/18/16 01:47 AM
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Setting aside the extreme end of this subject 'wholesale abandonment', let's have this discussion.

Being nice. That should be simple enough to understand but since that is also a relative statement (subject to interpretation), our society nowadays require a bit more clarification.

Y? Because some folks think being nice equates to what others call as abusive.

WHAT? Yea......take a look in the news, seems demeaning women in public & private, derogatory statements about persons with disabilities, etc. and somehow with all that negative rhetoric we are expected to gloss over this bad behavior and treat the proponents of such babble that they are great folks.

When it is pointed out that their behavior is not nice but abusive, it is met with stupid excuses. How doe we deal with such ones? What happens when such ones are older than us? Are our relatives? In our immediate family? Our parents, neighbors, co-workers, acquaintances, those in positions of authority, public officials or other known folks, what do we do?

Where and what is our responsibility to speaking out or when to keep silent? How do we help those who have been down trodden close to home and away from home? What encouragement works and what doesn't?

Not just saying we need to stand up and speak but give the path with options to do so should be provided. With the right balance, not extremism. Balance and being realistic. Showing care and compassion together.

I think a constant focusing and refocusing on proper treatment that is truly proper and not just one's opinion.

I find it difficult to except when I hear of a person who abuses others but gets irritated when they see that same type of abuse turn on their own. Maybe a spouse abuses his wife but gets severely angry when his daughter's BF abuses her. Are both wrong? Yes. Yet why is one tolerated and the other not? Does that give anyone the right to take their frustration out on others? To cover up one abuse and chastise another? What does that make it? Hypocrisy? Yes. Prevalant? Yes. Can we help make a change to a better way of live? I hope so.

How can we start? I think it is by individually taking responsibility and knowing when to speak up, expose if needed and help others find their voice. Treat each other with respect and show care. That doesn't take anything special and no extra intelligence. But it does take a caring heart.

jmo,
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