Who's Online Now
1 registered members (1 invisible), 3 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Nonprofit Donations
2019 Campaign Meter
ProgressGoal
$200.00 
$2000
Paypal Donation to MA
 Trending Topics(Posts)
1.Am I still a doormat?8
2.***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga***4
3.How are you all doing?3
4.COVID019: SBA loans for businesses, homeowners and renters3
5.WuD? - Moving on.2
6.Learning about life from life........2
7.My Gratitude Journal1
8.Combated Gaslighting1
9.Site Maintenance This Evening0
10.MA Member Poll: Showing Forum Moderators0
*By replies in last 2 weeks.
In The Media(Posts)
Validation to find-win-win slutions2
Things men want3
These Are The Signs You're Dating A Narcissist3
Girlfriend's 'controlling' list of 22 rules for boyfriend goes viral: 'She sounds crazy'9
What Divorced Men Wish They Had Done Differently In Their Marriages7
Alienation of Affection / Criminal Conversation9
Would you pay your ex a 'break-up fee'? - BBC3
Delaware is now first US state to fully ban child marriage - CBS3
Nashville mayor resigns after affair, pleads guilty to theft2
7 Things Kids Need To Do For Themselves Before They Turn 13 - Healthyway1
more >>
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
What is "fog"? #407624
04/07/16 01:48 PM
04/07/16 01:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 6,421
whatsupdoc? Offline OP
Member
whatsupdoc?  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 6,421
What is “fog”?
If you are reading this, I am supposing you have heard the term “fog” or “WS, wayward spouse, fog”. I know I was confused and extremely perplexed when the terms “WS fog”, “fog”, “BS fog” and even “betrayed spouse fog” was used.

In layman’s terms, WS affair fog is the thinking, behaviors or actions of a person addicted or becoming addicted to an affair. It can alter the thoughts, actions and temperament of the person. Many take a long time to see this transformation, with some it apparently hits overnight. You may be wondering after it hits where it rolled in from. Like a natural fog, many elements are involved and need to be present for fog to occur, it will be helpful to understanding a few key ideas.

Affairs are very addictive on emotional and brain chemical levels. Many that have emotional or physical affairs do so for how they feel when they are with the affair partner not necessarily how they care for the affair partner. This release of dopamine, serotonin and norepinephrine, “feel good” chemicals in the brain can cause a natural state of euphoria. Combine this with the heightened sense of self-worth or ego stroking that many affair partners provide, you can see this can become a pretty addicting combination. Part one.

As our bodies naturally age there is also physical and chemical changes that occur. Most understand these natural occurrences; some people reject the differences they see in their bodies. The escape of an affair may make them feel attractive, young, strong and “alive”. Part two.

Then there is the opportunity. Enough said. Part three.

Cognitive dissonance is the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.
It is believed that a person cannot live with conflicts of ingrained beliefs and current actions or thoughts. In laymen’s terms, regarding the actions of a WS, the desire to have an affair conflicts with the belief that an affair is something “good” people do. The thought “I am a good person”, is now conflicted with the actions or desires of wanting or having an affair. According to what I’ve seen, many WS can seemingly live swimmingly with this dichotomy for years, but ultimately the conflict, like a festering sliver under your nail, will insist on change.

When someone is experiencing internal conflict, or CD, there are few choices. Either the person has to change the behavior or change the thinking or moral code behind the belief. Subconsciously this person has to alter beliefs to align with actions or current desires and actions. This is when the mixture of all the parts comes together, and the fog starts rolling in. I call this fantastical thinking, where even the most rational WS start to believe highly unlikely outcomes for their actions.

Some simply excuse themselves with the thinking “my need to be happy overrides my need to be faithful”. This does have truth to it, as everyone should have opportunities to be happy, but as the lens gets refocused, many prior beliefs get shunned. This type of thinking quickly becomes a slope of rationalizations; unfortunately sometimes the BS becomes a huge part of the blame. Many describe an active WS as inconsistent, emotional, behaving in a 180 degree different manner than they have for decades. Some BS see this change coming, others are completely shocked during the bomb drop.

Many BS wonder if the WS actually believe their fantastical thinking? From what I have read, during the time of the affair, absolutely yes, they are convinced their thoughts are facts and the emotions are real. Not only do they believe in their plans, but seem outraged and shocked that everyone else will not agree with the carefully laid out affair plans! This is when the affair fog horn is blowing most loudly to a BS ears.

At this time many BS, family members and friends try to explain, convince, cajole or rationalize to the WS. Bless their hearts. In my opinion you are wasting your breath. From the WS perspective it is too late and your words are wind to them. It will usually bring a tirade of WS thinking, convincing back on the BS or friends. They are convinced they are in the “right”. Will it always be like this? I can’t tell you. Your only recourse is to pay zero attention to what they say and judge them by their actions, and act accordingly.

As far as WS blaming the BS, let me start by saying upfront that there is always a grain of truth to the WS rationalization or fog. Even if the BS does not agree with the observation, most will accept ownership for complaints a WS has. No person or relationship is perfect and this is fertile ground for the WS and AP to create rationalizations from. This type of thinking, like a get out of jail free card, can be as addictive as the affair itself. The WS often portrays themselves to be the victims, the BS frequently becomes the villain and the affair becomes the solution.

Because of the bits of truth, it is very easy for an emotional BS to internalize the blame for the affair and accept the WS new thinking as factual or rational. They often preform a “pick me” dance to entice the WS to return to the marriage. Let me state this right now, a BS does not force a WS to have an affair. No one has that much power over another.

Initially the BS creates a fog surrounding the affair, too. Borne out of shock, fear, disbelief and emotional pain the BS often do not accept the affair as real thing or threat to their family structure. In this need to emotionally protect themselves, the family and even the WS, the BS rejects the very actions of the WS. They spackle excuses based on their OWN pre conceived notions of the WS, marriage and commitment. They create their own source of cognitive dissonance.

Very few BS can initially see the consequences of the affair clearly from the onset; some languish in their own BS fog for years. Few can immediately step in and take the precautions they need to protect themselves and their families.


Me: 50
XH: 13 - well, does emotional age count?
DD1: 24
DD2: 20
30 year partnership...

M: Dec, 1987
Bomb: May 12, 2014
D: Oct, 2015
Ratz.
I am learning how to surf!
Re: What is "fog"? [Re: whatsupdoc?] #407625
04/07/16 01:49 PM
04/07/16 01:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 6,421
whatsupdoc? Offline OP
Member
whatsupdoc?  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 6,421
Someone who does not believe in affair fog asked me to define it. Apparently I went a bit overboard.
I hope this may help a newbie.
WuD?


Me: 50
XH: 13 - well, does emotional age count?
DD1: 24
DD2: 20
30 year partnership...

M: Dec, 1987
Bomb: May 12, 2014
D: Oct, 2015
Ratz.
I am learning how to surf!
Re: What is "fog"? [Re: whatsupdoc?] #407629
04/07/16 02:49 PM
04/07/16 02:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,611
wiser_now Offline
Member
wiser_now  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,611
Here's my short version:

When your mind is clear, you make decisions that best suit the people you love and yourself.

When your mind is not clear, we could call it stormy or overcast or foggy... doesn't really matter... the point is, you are NOT thinking clearly: therefore, the "fog".


A happy marriage is a long conversation which always seems too short. --Andre Maurois

Re: What is "fog"? [Re: wiser_now] #407637
04/07/16 03:26 PM
04/07/16 03:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 629
Deep South
BBski Offline
Member
BBski  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 629
Deep South
Quote:
As far as WS blaming the BS, let me start by saying upfront that there is always a grain of truth to the WS rationalization or fog. Even if the BS does not agree with the observation, most will accept ownership for complaints a WS has. No person or relationship is perfect and this is fertile ground for the WS and AP to create rationalizations from. This type of thinking, like a get out of jail free card, can be as addictive as the affair itself. The WS often portrays themselves to be the victims, the BS frequently becomes the villain and the affair becomes the solution.

Because of the bits of truth, it is very easy for an emotional BS to internalize the blame for the affair and accept the WS new thinking as factual or rational. They often preform a “pick me” dance to entice the WS to return to the marriage. Let me state this right now, a BS does not force a WS to have an affair. No one has that much power over another.


Another way to look at it is no marriage is perfect. For every "truth" that the WS uses to justify the A, the BS can also find a justification for an A. For me, it comes down to CHARACTER or lack thereof.


Me 59; XH 60
Married 34 yrs, together 39 yrs
DD30 (married w/1 1/2 yr old GS) & DD25
DDay Nov. 7, 2012
He moved out Feb 15,2013
D final July 2014
Re: What is "fog"? [Re: whatsupdoc?] #407642
04/07/16 04:10 PM
04/07/16 04:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,398
T
TC_Manhattan Offline
Member
TC_Manhattan  Offline
Member
T
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,398
Fog.is.delusion..

Re: What is "fog"? [Re: TC_Manhattan] #407655
04/07/16 08:44 PM
04/07/16 08:44 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,611
The Dark Side of the Moon
AntigoneRisen Offline
Board of Directors
AntigoneRisen  Offline
Board of Directors
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,611
The Dark Side of the Moon
The fog is denial and rationalization. smile

You have a lot of thoughts on this WUD. Have you thought about putting them into an article?


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: What is "fog"? [Re: AntigoneRisen] #407684
04/08/16 02:44 AM
04/08/16 02:44 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,655
L
LadyGrey Offline
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,655
Originally Posted By: WUP
Cognitive dissonance is the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.
It is believed that a person cannot live with conflicts of ingrained beliefs and current actions or thoughts. In laymen’s terms, regarding the actions of a WS, the desire to have an affair conflicts with the belief that an affair is something “good” people do. The thought “I am a good person”, is now conflicted with the actions or desires of wanting or having an affair. According to what I’ve seen, many WS can seemingly live swimmingly with this dichotomy for years, but ultimately the conflict, like a festering sliver under your nail, will insist on change.


Cognitive dissonance is not a given.

I knew exactly what I was doing and why I was doing it and that it was wrong.

I just didn't care. The prospect of feeling better in the short term trumped the long term damage.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: What is "fog"? [Re: LadyGrey] #407686
04/08/16 05:22 AM
04/08/16 05:22 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,065
SW Chicago 'burbs
Mark1952 Offline
Board of Directors
Mark1952  Offline
Board of Directors
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,065
SW Chicago 'burbs


A good article on cognitive dissonance:
Cognitive Dissonance Theory

I've never been sure that cognitive dissonance was as much part of the fog as it was the result of it.

A lot of the fog, which to me has always seemed thickest in romantic affairs, I think can be explained by limerence, which I have been studying for a while now.

Limerence and the Biochemical Roots of Love Addiction


This is one of those areas where I think we need to be careful in applying an explanation too broadly or using something that partially explains something as the explanation for it.


mark1952.ma@gmail.com

I Was Thinking...

The secret to having a good marriage is to understand that marriage must be total, it must be permanent, and it must be equal.-- Frank Pittman
Re: What is "fog"? [Re: Mark1952] #407687
04/08/16 05:36 AM
04/08/16 05:36 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,065
SW Chicago 'burbs
Mark1952 Offline
Board of Directors
Mark1952  Offline
Board of Directors
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,065
SW Chicago 'burbs
LG,

Since cognitive dissonance theory would suggest that you would adjust you thinking in order to justify a choice already made, I think your explanation of feeling better in the short term in spite of admitting it was wrong fits the definition pretty closely.

In one of the classic experiments mentioned in the article I linked above, housewives were asked to rank cheap household small appliances according to their preferences. They listed the eight in order from best to least favorite.

There were three groups. The first was given one of the appliances chosen at random in payment for their participation. This was the control group.

The second group was given a choice between two of the appliances that they rated at least three points apart.

The third group was given a choice between two appliances that they rated only one point apart.

Then they were asked to rate them again.

The third group, those who were asked to choose between two closely valued rewards, all rated the appliance they had not chosen lower than previously and did so an average of three points, the minimum spread of the second group who varied less in their reevaluations.

The third group showed no signs of dissonance as they had done a job and been rewarded for it without having to choose between opposing products.

Cognitive dissonance isn't about agonizing over a choice. It's simply how we resolve a conflict between our world view and our choices or actions. We all do it every day all day long. It's the only real answer to "Why did you do that?"

That's why I'm not so sure it is involved in what people call the fog.


mark1952.ma@gmail.com

I Was Thinking...

The secret to having a good marriage is to understand that marriage must be total, it must be permanent, and it must be equal.-- Frank Pittman
Re: What is "fog"? [Re: Mark1952] #407688
04/08/16 06:23 AM
04/08/16 06:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 6,421
whatsupdoc? Offline OP
Member
whatsupdoc?  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 6,421
This is my opinion, based on many readings, experiences and views.

I'm not saying WS or anyone chooses to change their thinking to make new behaviors acceptable. The subconscious does this automatically, as a coping skill.

We would all like to think we are in WAY more control than we actually are.

Some don't believe in CD, heck, many don't believe in fog. What acts formerly rational, or apparently rational people, not only behave in a way that is (usually) not in character for them. To others it seems like a fog. Of course, the WS does not see it that way.

One article I read was a counselor who was dealing with "foggy" WS, and she was trying to understand if they actually really believed their assertions they claimed during this stage.
We know about re writing, blame shifting and fantastical thinking. I think we all have experienced or read about WHOPPERS, and sometimes very subtle ideas WS have.

She claimed that she was convinced the WS firmly believed, had convinced themselves that their new thinking was correct, even when presented with factual evidence showing otherwise. (Contradictions in stories.)
-- weird side note. I had a roommate in college that when she was accused and presented with evidence of her stealing and cover ups, actually got a glazed look in her eyes and insisted the RA was all wrong and what she did was ok. - it was a very strange experience to watch. Listening to her blather and justify, while she was a 4.0 honors student, big time christian and student leader....

Some people claim that "deep down" WS (and BS) know what the are doing is wrong, I don't agree. They have convinced themselves with new filters.

I believe you are wasting your breath "talking sense" to someone who actually believes that what they are doing is acceptable. Same reason I don't believe reverse babble is effective, either, except the BS turns the blame back onto the WS.

I believe the fog is real, there are certainly reasons for it, the better understanding of what may motivate a person to behave in a dramatically different way - the sooner a BS can accept and take actions.

Not all WS are in a fog. Some slip half way in, some jump into the fray.

Do the WS believe what they are saying?

- yes. At that time, they do. Act accordingly.




Last edited by whatsupdoc?; 04/08/16 06:49 AM.

Me: 50
XH: 13 - well, does emotional age count?
DD1: 24
DD2: 20
30 year partnership...

M: Dec, 1987
Bomb: May 12, 2014
D: Oct, 2015
Ratz.
I am learning how to surf!
Re: What is "fog"? [Re: Mark1952] #407689
04/08/16 06:37 AM
04/08/16 06:37 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,065
SW Chicago 'burbs
Mark1952 Offline
Board of Directors
Mark1952  Offline
Board of Directors
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,065
SW Chicago 'burbs
In response to the idea that there is truth in some of the things an unfaithful spouse says to justify the affair... That stuff we often call fog talk or fog babble...

The argument actually has to remain on a whole different level than the validity or truth of the things said.

Was the affair wrong?

If yes, how does being a jerk/not home for dinner/not helping with the kids or any other truthful or fanciful failure of the betrayed spouse make it right?

What IS a good reason for having an affair, kept secret as it developed until confronted about the emotional disconnection from the family and perhaps other outward signs that the marriage was being dismantled to promote bonding with someone new?

I can think of a lot of reasons to end a marriage, infidelity being only one. I can think of a lot more reasons to separate until an agreement to address some hurtful behavior is addressed. I can even think of a few reasons to demand a change in some behavior to avoid impending filing for divorce.

Which of those groups contains the reason that an affair is the correct response?

Here's why the list of faults used by the unfaithful spouse can be summarily ignored as long as the affair is still burning. As long as the affair is happening, the biggest threat to the relationship is the affair. Dirty socks on the floor, nail clippings on the coffee table, stopping for a beer after work are all problems that can be solved, negotiated and fixed. If the affair continues or becomes a new primary relationship, the marriage is over and no changes matter to that relationship any more.

I spent too many hours at work.
I tended to dominate every conversation with my wife.
I didn't always consider how she would feel before making a decision.
I tried to fix her life instead of just being part of it.
I tried to win every disagreement and force my will on every conflict.

All true.

Not one of them was a rational reason to have an affair. None of them were fixed or addressed by having an affair and a couple were made worse and more difficult to change because of the affair.

During the first week or so after D-day, as I snooped searching for as much dirt as I could find, I ran across a notebook. It wasn't tied with a bow or labelled as a journal or anything else that would make it stand out. It was just a regular old college ruled spiral notebook. It was yellow. The first few pages were notes about doctor's appointments, stuff the kids had scheduled, upcoming commitments. It could easily fit on any kitchen table in the country and nobody would bat an eye. But exactly ten pages from the end of the notebook, in spite of most of the pages still unused, was a sort of decision chart.

We've all seen Franklin's decision method. You list the pros on one side of a line and the cons on the other side. The longer list is the way you should go. Of course in practice, we don't actually make decisions that way. We follow our gut, our instincts, our feelings. We basically do whatever we feel like doing and only bother to justify it after the fact.

So here was this page in her notebook, left laying on the night stand beside the bed we'd share the night before. On the left side was my name. On the right was OM. The first few on my side were things she considered to be my better qualities and they included stuff like hard worker, cares about the family, faithful, etc. On the right she began with the negatives about OM. He was a serial cheater. He was a manipulator. He promised almost anything to get his way at the time but seldom followed through

Somewhere down the page the tone changed. On my side of the ledger were complaints, some valid and some that even casual friends would say were a complete lie at best. The list filled one half of both sides of the paper.

On his side, the list morphed into things like...

His house was bigger. His kids were already grown and wouldn't be around to make demands. His garden was bigger than mine (I stopped planting a garden when I was the only one taking care of it) He encouraged her to write poetry. (I had NO idea she even thought about writing poetry). He would talk to her for hours on the phone (in the middle of the night when I was out of town, not in the middle of a work day with 15 people waiting for me to do something for them.)

Anyway...within a couple of pages she had created this fantasy lover who was a white knight on a steed and I was but a lowly serf would never be half as much.

This is pretty typical. "He's an axe murderer? I'm sure I can work with that. He's just misunderstood and my love can change him."

Any shortfall of the affair partner is discounted or made unimportant or completely ignored. Any shortcoming of the spouse is magnified, and good traits discounted. Good qualities of the betrayed spouse are reduced to lowest terms so as to only have a single value assigned. (faithful - 1 point/ talks too much, dominates conversations, works too late,- 25 points each)

I'm not saying, BTW, that things that might be true don't have to be addressed, some perhaps right away if you hope to save your marriage. But be certain about one thing, whether true or false, nothing on the list of complaints justifies an affair. Nothing makes if rational and nothing makes it right or just.

Marriage broken?
Fix it, accept it or leave it.

An affair doesn't fix it.
An affair isn't leaving it.
An affair isn't accepting it.

An affair always adds layer upon layer of additional conflicts, hurt feelings and lost trust that must be addressed for the marriage to get any better.

You stopped for a beer on the way home!
You started having sex with another guy.

You never supported my dream of being novelist.
You spent a week in Key West with your secretary while I dealt with your sick mother in the hospital.

You never initiate sex.
You disconnected emotionally from the whole family to hide your fling with the floozy.

You never do the dishes.
You wore the lingerie I bought you for Christmas to meet a guy in a motel with hourly rates while the kids were at ballet practice.

Not gonna win the hand playing off suit 9s and 10s.

Breaking the marriage vows to build a secret extramarital relationship is sort of a deal breaker. Missing the hamper with your socks isn't even close.


mark1952.ma@gmail.com

I Was Thinking...

The secret to having a good marriage is to understand that marriage must be total, it must be permanent, and it must be equal.-- Frank Pittman
Re: What is "fog"? [Re: Mark1952] #407690
04/08/16 06:49 AM
04/08/16 06:49 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,860
HI
O
Orchid2 Online
Ambassador
Orchid2  Online
Ambassador
O
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,860
HI
We've had this discussion before. It is always an interesting one and the audience has a lot of newer posters who may find this helpful.

Guess there are many definitions and interpretations of the dreaded, FOG. Basically it's one way of describing how a possibly once sane or relatively sane person turns into character who stumbles through life rewriting history, has a distorted vision of reality and is compelled to make him/herself the victim while blaming all their bad choices on the very ones they should be protecting (their family).

Who would have imagined these once upstanding folks would turn out and act so weird? Where was the warning of this morphing? Is this permanent or temporary insanity? Can it be fixed? Is there a pill or potion?

Other important questions: Is there a manual or guidebook that educates the WS and OPs? Do they go to a type of WS school? Why are their patterns so consistent and weird? Why is going beyond logic so attractive? Does this cause permanent brain damage?

Is there hope?

In most cases, fog is a temporary event. It might feel like a long time but for those who have BTDT, they know these fog events eventually clear. At least in most cases and places. Maybe that's why to describe the start of these A events as being in the fog is something many can eventually relate to. Maybe.....sometimes it takes a while even for the BS and family to get out of the fog as well. Y? Because the WS blows a ton of smoke. All that rewriting history casts huge caustic burning smoke designed to throw the family off so that they can't see up from down.

Keeping the family off balanced is a technique that the WS learns from WS-101. It even causes the children to blame themselves. What kind of parent would allow that? In many cases, the WS kind of parent. How sad is that?

Fog is just a start, as time goes on the BS realizes the fog can get worse. Some of us have dealt with this ongoing alternate WS universe for years. Dealing with an A that has a longer shelf life, evenutally turns from the fog into a living breathing creepy creature. One that later a recovered WS might find offensive. In fact, many a recovered Xws can't believe or even recall the details of their actions.

The sad piece is that many a BS does retain the details. It's an experience you can't forget (even though you really want to forget all of it). frown

jmo,
Orchid

Re: What is "fog"? [Re: Orchid2] #407691
04/08/16 07:00 AM
04/08/16 07:00 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 6,421
whatsupdoc? Offline OP
Member
whatsupdoc?  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 6,421
These are fantastic, well thought out, personal experience replies.

That is what a message board like this is supposed to put forth.

My intention was to relay to a newbie SOME of the influences that may cause her WS fog.

Her husband now says she is disgusting, always thought so.
He never loved her
BS forced him to have kids, so he should not have to pay.
OW is the love of his life
She BS, deserves to be dumped, and have to struggle, with kids, because it is now "her turn" to worry and be miserable. facepalm

This is nothing like he was pre affair.
Her question.. does he now really believe this ????

Right now, this minute I believe he does, she needs to understand and act accordingly - not go into her own fog that he will snap out of it.

Last edited by whatsupdoc?; 04/08/16 07:03 AM.

Me: 50
XH: 13 - well, does emotional age count?
DD1: 24
DD2: 20
30 year partnership...

M: Dec, 1987
Bomb: May 12, 2014
D: Oct, 2015
Ratz.
I am learning how to surf!
Re: What is "fog"? [Re: whatsupdoc?] #407693
04/08/16 11:25 AM
04/08/16 11:25 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,860
HI
O
Orchid2 Online
Ambassador
Orchid2  Online
Ambassador
O
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,860
HI
Ok, I'll play. Let's add to that list of WS babble, imagine a WS saying:

1. I thought you would have an A before me.
2. OW is 'my best friend' (said on d/d).
3. I never loved you.
4. You made my business fail (while I was working at my own job 12 - 16 hours a day and caring for a small child, plus in-law responsibilities, paying bills, cooking/cleaning, filing for his office, even going to work with him sometimes, endless storage locker auctions and resale and other important stuff). When was I going to have any time to 'make his business fail'?
5. I told the OW that you are 'a good wife and prettier than her'.
6. I told the OW you are a good mother.

I'm sure this list of babble can get much longer. In between the babble is some truth but when it comes out of the mouth of a WS justifying the A, it's still babble.

A BS needs to be astute about how to separate the babble from the truth and spin it back to the WS to do what I call, 'giving the WS back his/her guilt'. wink

jmo,
Orchid

Re: What is "fog"? [Re: Orchid2] #407694
04/08/16 11:36 AM
04/08/16 11:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 6,421
whatsupdoc? Offline OP
Member
whatsupdoc?  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 6,421
This takes me back to a dark place, a very bad "hood", Victimhood - his...

1. I spent all the money -
2. He was miserable for 30, then 20 then 10 years.
3. We didn't have sex for 9 years - (????)
4. I was emotional, physical, verbal abuser who was an alcoholic and a "pill popper". (HE sent a photo of my AD prescriptions to his family members.)
My best friend of 20 years never saw me drink once - I mean WACKO stuff.
5. I never contributed to the family unit.
6. I never forgave him.

Seriously, he would tear up describing his struggle with such a horrible wife. Acting like a "hidden abused spouse" - He HAD to believe these ideas, heck he had ME believing them....

Mind you, he never said any of this directly to my face - I found out mostly from attorney and other people. Damn, I was ferocious!
My attorney shook his head - said he had never SEEN a husband so unconcerned for the welfare of his family -

Had I bought into these, and in the beginning, I sorta did, I would be a total mess...

Last edited by whatsupdoc?; 04/08/16 11:38 AM.

Me: 50
XH: 13 - well, does emotional age count?
DD1: 24
DD2: 20
30 year partnership...

M: Dec, 1987
Bomb: May 12, 2014
D: Oct, 2015
Ratz.
I am learning how to surf!
Re: What is "fog"? [Re: Orchid2] #407695
04/08/16 12:09 PM
04/08/16 12:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,539
B
Blair Offline
Member
Blair  Offline
Member
B
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,539
I heard similar things too:
1. I never loved you.
2. We never had a connection when we got married. (So I asked, why did you marry me then? He couldn't come up with an answer.)
3. We had to get married. / You made me marry you. (I wasn't pregnant and there was no reason to "have" to get married to him.)
4. You are ugly/fat/dumb/stupid and nobody else would want you. (He would change it to whatever insult he wanted to use that day.)
5. You ruined my relationship with my family!
6. You can't handle the finances. (Never had late payments or accounts go into the red while I handled them, but when he took over they were a mess.)
7. You can't mow the lawn right. (Seriously!?!)
8. You don't get the oil changed the way I would like.
9. You spent too much money on that $3 shirt! You should cut back.
10. I'm only staying with you because I have free child care for my kids.
11. We never had good times as a family.
12. Our kids would be better off with someone else as their mother.

...and on and on....

It all started with little lies and small half-truths that tainted his idea of what was going on in his life and how he was handling the conflict he felt inside of him regarding his feelings and his moral values. The little lies and half-truths were feeble attempts at justifying his actions that it was okay to do inappropriate things.

I think that my STBX truly believed the garbage flowing in his brain, and that it matched the lies he was telling his friends and family members. His version of reality is his alone; I can't change his reality.

It would be fantastic if STBX could see what his children truly think of him, what his lies have done to his kids, what the lies have done to our church and my family members, etc. But he won't see it. It is far easier to accept himself as the "victim" of events allegedly out of his control and spin the blame to someone else so that he does not have to be accountable for his actions and his words. It would take too much effort and too much genuine change to learn empathy for anyone else in his life. I do not think my STBX is capable of such empathy. I think that he will continue on the path that everything will ALWAYS be MY fault. I will always be blamed for whatever he doesn't agree with in his life.

I haven't personally known any WS that actually change and repair the marriage relationship. What I have seen is the BS accepts the newly-found garbage and rug-sweeps to keep it together for the kids, or they divorce and the WS quickly moves onto yet another girlfriend/FWB in an attempt at finding "true happiness."

The sad part of "fog" is that it goes both ways. The BS can stick around too long hoping for change, hoping for improvement back to the person they once knew. The BS fog damages a BS in so many other ways that hearing the babble from the WS causes even more the pain and self-esteem damage than just the affair. The "pick-me" dance is so painful, and I wouldn't even advise it.

Re: What is "fog"? [Re: Blair] #407696
04/08/16 12:25 PM
04/08/16 12:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 6,421
whatsupdoc? Offline OP
Member
whatsupdoc?  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 6,421
OMG, Blair.

That's terrible.


Me: 50
XH: 13 - well, does emotional age count?
DD1: 24
DD2: 20
30 year partnership...

M: Dec, 1987
Bomb: May 12, 2014
D: Oct, 2015
Ratz.
I am learning how to surf!
Re: What is "fog"? [Re: whatsupdoc?] #407697
04/08/16 12:26 PM
04/08/16 12:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,611
wiser_now Offline
Member
wiser_now  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,611
Originally Posted By: whatsupdoc?

I believe you are wasting your breath "talking sense" to someone who actually believes that what they are doing is acceptable.


How do you reconcile Al Turtle's assertion that "All people make sense all the time"?

I also wonder who gets to define "acceptable" ?


A happy marriage is a long conversation which always seems too short. --Andre Maurois

Re: What is "fog"? [Re: whatsupdoc?] #407698
04/08/16 12:43 PM
04/08/16 12:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 6,421
whatsupdoc? Offline OP
Member
whatsupdoc?  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 6,421
Oh, I certainly believe people can move in and out of "fog" thinking. I know I have done this many times myself. As can be attested to by anyone who has read my thread.

At the time, I was convinced and truly thought I was a bad person who deserved abandonment, and I could "fix" myself and WS would wake up and return. Cheech and Chong had less fog around them.


Me: 50
XH: 13 - well, does emotional age count?
DD1: 24
DD2: 20
30 year partnership...

M: Dec, 1987
Bomb: May 12, 2014
D: Oct, 2015
Ratz.
I am learning how to surf!
Re: What is "fog"? [Re: whatsupdoc?] #407699
04/08/16 12:45 PM
04/08/16 12:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 6,421
whatsupdoc? Offline OP
Member
whatsupdoc?  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 6,421
WN:
I'll respond on your thread in the carport.


Me: 50
XH: 13 - well, does emotional age count?
DD1: 24
DD2: 20
30 year partnership...

M: Dec, 1987
Bomb: May 12, 2014
D: Oct, 2015
Ratz.
I am learning how to surf!
Re: What is "fog"? [Re: whatsupdoc?] #407702
04/08/16 01:09 PM
04/08/16 01:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,611
wiser_now Offline
Member
wiser_now  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,611
I was asking generally...not about my situation in particular. I think it's an important question...well, two questions. smile


A happy marriage is a long conversation which always seems too short. --Andre Maurois

Re: What is "fog"? [Re: wiser_now] #407705
04/08/16 01:20 PM
04/08/16 01:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 6,421
whatsupdoc? Offline OP
Member
whatsupdoc?  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 6,421
I believe everyone has their personal moral code they navigate by.
Called free will.

It is formed in FOO, experiences, teachings and role model patterning.

EXTREME example:
Some people will steal think nothing of it, but would never renege on a personal deal... just the way their brain processes the issue at hand. There is a show on Net flicks about underground criminal behavior. There are people who create "counterfeit medications" that wind up on the street and as recently found, in prescription meds.

The one interviewed believed he was doing a public service, yes one that made him personally rich, but it was simply amazing to listen to. Is he in a self deluded fog?

Did you know that Viagra is one of the most copied scripts? PFizer maintains there are many more fakes out there than they produce?

Last edited by whatsupdoc?; 04/08/16 01:26 PM.

Me: 50
XH: 13 - well, does emotional age count?
DD1: 24
DD2: 20
30 year partnership...

M: Dec, 1987
Bomb: May 12, 2014
D: Oct, 2015
Ratz.
I am learning how to surf!
Re: What is "fog"? [Re: whatsupdoc?] #407750
04/08/16 07:25 PM
04/08/16 07:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 32
B
BagLady Offline
Member
BagLady  Offline
Member
B
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 32
I'll add to the list since my experience is so recent:

1. Now that the kids are out of the house (my S17 is only a Junior in high school) - we just don't have that much in common.
2. There are things I want to do that I know you won't want to do - but I can't name anything specific right now.
3. The kids always come to you when they need something - they really don't need me.
4. We did not have enough sex (at least once a week, a lot of times more- up until the very night he told me he wants out).
5. You are always more into sex when you've been drinking (I don't know any husband to complain about this).
6. I think we will both be better people after this.
7. Our marriage would have ended eventually anyway (the affair he started 6 mo prior has nothing to do with it - just a lucky coincidence I guess).

I don't know if this is a FOG or some kind of mid life crisis or maybe he has always been this self-centered - but to me he was always very loving, very affectionate, would do anything for his kids and I can remember when that started to stop - which was very soon after the affair started.

Re: What is "fog"? [Re: BagLady] #407757
04/08/16 08:13 PM
04/08/16 08:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 203
S
staystrong Offline
Member
staystrong  Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 203
My WS said many of the things you all have written but here are a couple that he told me that I now can really laugh about.

“You purposely mop the floor with those strong chemicals that make me sick.” Mind you, I switched to environmentally friendly ones a few years ago.

And:

“You purposely wash dinner dishes and make noise while I’m trying to watch TV!” I remember telling him that had he helped me, we’d both had been able to watch TV in peace and quiet.

Of course, in some of our recent conversations he doesn’t remember saying these things and simply tells me to please forgive him. Or he’ll say I took it the wrong way – and asks for forgiveness.

And nope, he’s still not home, but he keeps trying. But I’m not budging....not this time!

Re: What is "fog"? [Re: staystrong] #407760
04/08/16 09:51 PM
04/08/16 09:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 6,421
whatsupdoc? Offline OP
Member
whatsupdoc?  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 6,421
eeeeoooowch. Everyone. If it was not so ridiculously harmful, it would (almost ) be laughable.

I'm still jealous of the people who got, at least FAKE I'm sorry or apologies. I didn't even have the opportunity to slam the door in his bleeping face....

Nice to know I am (was) not alone in the insanity. Mine was so convincing, I actually started to believe his teary assertions... a grown man who needs to villainise his family.

Last edited by whatsupdoc?; 04/08/16 09:53 PM.

Me: 50
XH: 13 - well, does emotional age count?
DD1: 24
DD2: 20
30 year partnership...

M: Dec, 1987
Bomb: May 12, 2014
D: Oct, 2015
Ratz.
I am learning how to surf!
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Chrysalis, Fiddler, Miranda 

Newest Members
shattered72, Broken19, Amadhy, Farnell, 805bail
2044 Registered Users
Latest Topics(Posts)
COVID019: SBA loans for businesses, homeowners and renters3
How are you all doing?3
Combated Gaslighting11
Help! Hubby of 26 years having affair with former co-worker186
Article: My Husband Didn’t Come Home One Night1
How To Spot A Narcissist—And Deal With All Their Manipulative BS1
Just updating... things do get better over time.5
Validation to find-win-win slutions2
Affair World1
expired security certificate1
Community Information
2044Members
1Penalty Box
6Suspended

42

Forums
8481Topics
462444Posts
 
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1
(Release build 20180111)
Page Time: 0.027s Queries: 15 (0.005s) Memory: 3.3927 MB (Peak: 3.7830 MB) Zlib enabled in php.ini Server Time: 2020-04-06 02:01:04 UTC