Yes. I mentioned that in my post. She did treat him for a time.

Yes, he had an EA with an old girlfriend in 2005/06. Worse, he had never revealed to me the true nature of his relationship with this person, (that they dated...TWICE and the second time was very serious), though I knew the rest of his romantic history. He had just portrayed her as a high school friend. It wasn't until the the A got busted open that all that came out. And the fact that she and he had kept in touch sporadically and never mentioned it to me. (I was able to confirm that claim...it was about 1-2x/year for 15 or so years, then nothing for the 4 years prior to the HS reunion)

He thinks I should just move on already from the EA. I told him I can forgive that, but I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive the dishonesty of leaving out such important info re: their previous relationship. I honestly don't think I would have married him had I known he was still carrying some sort of torch. As was she. She blew back into town the week before our wedding to ask him not to go through with it. (unknown to me) She had been married 4 years by this point.

Oh, if you truly want to leave...leave. I would strongly suggest getting a lawyer. This will likely get very ugly.

Don't assume that the kids will be staying with you.

Get the advice of an attorney before doing anything.

And there it is. I don't blame you for this...it is, at least , honest.

THIS is the heart of the issue. It doesn't matter one bit if he gets a job or not. You can't forgive him and resent him for tricking you into marriage. I GET that.

So, put aside all this other silliness and be honest. You are divorcing him because you can't forgive his infidelity. THAT I can understand.

Is it that she can't forgive, or that he hasn't shown her remorse that she can feel is real? He doesn't get to decide when she's "over it", and that attitude is usually of someone who doesn't really think he did anything wrong.

Hey OH,

I wondered what happened to you. I thought I might have made you mad and you just up and quit posting for a while.

Glad you're getting some help.

Soooo....

Your H is still drinking???

Are you still going to Al-Anon???

MEDC is right.... you can exit the marriage anytime you want! The funny thing is, you don't even need an excuse!

I have told you in the past that your best solution might be to seperate. Even if you don't file for a divorce you could seperate and get some normality establised away from your alchoholic husband.

Just my .02

Hello tst.

I think you can probably figure out what happened to me over there. And you know it wasn't you that made me mad so that I went away. That's actually pretty hard for *anyone* to do. One of my less than complementary characteristics is that I am insanely stubborn. It's probably why I am STILL in this relationship, coming up on 22 years!

I believe that this has been the biggest contributor in your struggles.
OH, I lived with this type of gaslighting for only 4 months which made me crazy and it felt like 4 yrs.
I understand how this kind of unfinished business, eats away from the inside out.

5 yrs. is a very long time to not have the answers that you need.

(((((OH)))))

OH, I'm so happy for all the insight you are getting here, the insight you have been looking for. How are you feeling? Do you have any light, fun stuff planned? You've got some heavy stuff going on!

OH, it almost seems like the crux of the issue is that you were a victim of bait-and-switch. You thought you were getting one thing, only to find out down the road that the real "purchase" wasn't as nice and sparkly as it appeared in the glossy brochures and fancy ads.

And HE does nothing to alleviate your buyer's remorse. Would it make a difference? I'm not so sure...

What about if he got a job and started making significant domestic contributions? Might help, but I don't think it would ultimately get you want you want.

Why? Because this isn't what you signed up for. And you want what was illustrated in the glossy brochure and anything less will always be nothing but LESS.

I'm not sayin' it's good or bad, but just reality. I used to think the work thing was the heart of the matter, but I'm starting to reevaluate after reading your comments.

Just picture 'The Thinker' by Rodin. That's me right now. Just fully clothed......

TBC

Somewhere, somewhere on this forum I think, someone wrote about the perils of having your spouse fall in love with a person they *think* is you, but is really NOT you.

I think there is quite a bit of that going on in my marriage. The entire first year of marriage, "bait and switch" was a term I heard often out of him. So perhaps we both did it. Though in my defense, I don't think I presented anything differently than the person I am. I had a job. I was in graduate school. I was interested in XYandZ things. I loved where I lived.

The things that changed after I got married were...I still had a job, but it was a different one that I hated. I didn't like where I lived (we moved). I wasn't in school anymore. But I was still interested in XYandZ things. Just no time to do them.

I do blame myself for a lot of it though...even though it's in the past and I can't change it. I fell in love with him for all the wrong reasons.

In the FIRST year of marriage? Wow. I didn't realize the issues had that kind of shelf life.



Do you think HE would say that the pre-M presentation was similar to the post-M presentation? I'm not sayin' that they WERE different but whether he thought they were -- and in what context...



So, post-M, you didn't like what you did for a living, or where you lived. You weren't in school anymore, and you couldn't pursue hobbies or interests that you enjoyed due to time constraints. And you were married....

So, if I could wave the magic TBC wand, and teleport you to the place you want to live, and allow you to work in a job that you enjoy, and give you free time to scrapbook, or hunt buffalo, or do whatever interests you, how would that affect your outlook on your M? You would, in essence, just have other aspects of your life that would DISTRACT you from your M -- aspects that aren't present right now.

I'm not sure what my point was, but in case you're wonderin', I don't have a magic wand. If I did, I'd probably use it on myself. (Wow, now THAT didn't exactly come out right.......)

TBC

Ok, point very well taken re: the bait and switch. Yes, he sees it that way. He dated a very happy-go-lucky, fun person. He got married to a stressed out, overworked, nut-case who began to suffer from major panic/anxiety disorder and soon could not leave the house without him in tow.

Then I found CBT and some Klonopin. That helped.

Then we moved back up to the PNW. That *really* helped.

Stuff I liked to do before marriage.

1. Dance
2. Play tennis
3. Run/bike/swim...race...etc.
4. School
5. Cook
6. Read
7. Drink wine and enjoy sunsets.

You can do all that again...by yourself.

Interesting evening. Parent night at daughter's school. One of her classmates is a girl who moved into our neighborhood over the summer. Parents are divorced. Dad had an affair. So on the way home, we were discussing how, after the classroom portion broke up and the mother was telling me something about something she did that afternoon, another woman came up, interrupted both of us and just started talking about introducing this woman to a friend of hers. Not a big deal in the scheme of things, except that it was downright rude...something I've seen the interrupter do before many times over.

So H was carrying on about that a bit in the car. I decided quite a while ago that some of the women in this town can drive me nuts if I let them, so I don't. Life is too short. I was sharing that with him. Then he asked me something about the first mom's divorce and I said "I think she's still really, really angry about it. Seems the entire town (she moved from another nearby town) knew what was happening and she didn't.

So *that* opened up a conversation about how everyone in "these small towns" (his words) knows everyone's business and everyone in "this town knows all of our business". I didn't say anything right away because I know he somehow blames me for his feeling ostracized, as though no one wants to get close to him because he's chronically unemployed, etc. And he feels the entire town knows about his A. I said that I didn't tell the entire town. He said "you didn't have to. You should know how people operate here; they love to gossip. And you gave them something to gossip about."

ME: No, YOU gave them something to gossip about. I just shared with a few close friends because I needed support.

HIM: Here we go again.

ME: You brought this up. I still deal with this every day. I know you think I should have gotten over it already, but I haven't. I process it and think about it every day.

He didn't say another word to me the rest of the ride home. We stopped by our church to pick up our son who wasn't ready to leave yet. So he took me home, dropped me off and went back to get our son.

I have nothing really to comment about...I'm just passing along an interesting observation. Just as I still haven't processed the A because of his dishonesty, he hasn't forgiven me for exposing. Yet, I really don't think he would do this again. I think this is more about his preoccupation of others' perceptions about him and how he deflects that blame onto me.

A bigger problem than I am capable of solving simply by working the MB program.

Like I like to say about my husband...what an ass.

OH, what do you think you were meant to learn from this today?

Hi OH,

I see a few similarities in our situation starting with getting together for all the wrong reasons. For me, I was afraid I'd be left behind....I was alone at 19 and never had had a boyfriend. DH was the first to show attention to me. This sounds hard to believe but I married him without falling in love with him due to my fear of 'becoming an old maid' like my mom had described a little old lady down the street.

This morning I did ask my DH 'after 4 D-Days, why did you choose to change?' He said many things but the most important was that he saw that I meant business and that I did NOT need him. That made him not only want to stay with me but it convinced him to make the 180 degree changes and "do anything to help me heal." H also said that he was the X factor....that his collection of life experiences made him operate the way he did. It most likely would be different for every other guy. FWIW, we had been reading MB books but did not yet know about the forums.

Alcoholism was NOT a part of our scenario. That's where the similarity stops. But the gaslighting and badgering each other for 32 years was nearly as bad. He did get depressed when he was fired from his 30+ year career but he 'found OW' when he was supposed to be looking for jobs online (whlle I was working 3 jobs and caring for his ailing mother.)

Did you ever read my story when you had access to MB? Let me know and it will give me an idea of where to start. Sorry it's so late and I can't write more now but I promise I'll be back.

Ace

ETA: I posted the above late last night before I saw/read your other thread on the other forum. I won't have time to read/reply until the weekend.

***EDIT****

See blog!

OH, have you ever heard about how AAs originally did step 4, and many folks, both AA an Alanon, still do today? Step 4 being done from a resentments list. http://fellowship12.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=51:stepfourcat&id=136:alcoholics-anonymous-resentment-1&Itemid=57 There are more links at the bottom, that go into more detail.

You are doing great at identifying the things that feel out of place for you, the things you don't like, and this is column one. Would you be willing to go further with me here, or find someone IRL you trust? The other columns are (2) where you identify the person doing the thing you resent, (3) identify your response, and (4) ask your HP what you were to learn from this, and take your answer and check it with Him again.

OH, you are already doing to major work, the typing up the whole thing. The other parts are much easier, and I think will help you reset, to understand that in these everyday things, your HP is reaching out to you, helping you find serenity.

What do you think?

Just as an example, for this resentment from this morning, Column 2, the person responsible, is your H, column 3, your reaction, sounds to me like sharing your O&H, keeping an open mind, letting go of the response. Am I close? What do you think column 4, what your HP wants you to learn from this, is?

If you don't want to do this exercise, OH, I totally understand. If you do give it a shot, whether here or on paper at home, the idea is that you will feel a reset, a shot of serenity.

(((OH)))

That was a great job of being open and honest. I'm proud of you.

BTW, I forgot to include what he said when he interrupted me. I think it's significant.

I was talking about how we were living day to day, not really communicating our underlying, more intimate feelings about things and I was going to go on to say I don't like or want to live that way, when he interrupted and said "you have no idea just HOW much I don't tell you"

He does this often. When I say I feel terrible about not being able to open up to him, he says "you have no idea HOW much I don't tell you anymore"

When I say I'm sad, upset, lonely, scared, etc., he says "You have no idea how much MORE sad, depressed, lonely, etc., I am than you"

Like I said, it's all a scoreboard!

But I decided a while back that the only scoreboard I will keep is my own. So I focus on that. If he wants to win the "I am more depressed, sad, lonely, etc." than me contest, he's going to have to participate in that one on his own. I'm not playing.

Thinking about that helped me get the conversation right back on track. Well, it wasn't really a conversation, since I was doing all the talking, but you know what I mean!

Ugh. I'm so sorry you're having to deal with all of this. I think you did a good job of keeping your cool, and telling him how it is. He needs to step up or step out.

The BOTH need to step up or step out. They take turns leading in this very unhealthy dance.

You're right, Medc. We overfunctioning women have problems disengaging when someone's dependent on us.