I am not sure this post belongs in this forum. But I don't know where else to put it. The purpose of it is to solicit advice on how to break apart a marriage without blowing the individuals in the family (spouses and kids), out of the water.

For the purposes of this thread, please assume that the writer has already made the decision to end the marriage as it currently exists today. Whether that will take the form of short or longer-term separation, or eventual divorce...I don't know. But it won't involve a husband and wife living together in the same house.

So as many of you know, husband is not working and has no income. Wife could probably make ends meet on current jobs (FT and PT), and is willing to move to a less expensive living situation (without husband).

I am not sure if it's best to: a) dump his stuff at the curb and change the locks. b) try to work out an equitable but non-legally binding (i.e., no lawyers to pay!) arrangement for the interim c)wait it out 'til 2012 when I will have finished grad school and kid #2 will have finished high school and kid #3 will only be in 6th grade so I can really pick up and move anywhere or d) some other permutation or combination I haven't discovered.

I know all about emotional honesty, what I seem to "owe" him in terms of that. Plan A, Plan B, Plan D, Plan Doormat, yadda yadda, yadda.

I have tried the emotional honesty route. Either I'm terrible at listening and communicating, or the target audience is refusing to listen.

I need a plan. It doesn't have to be executed today or tomorrow. And it doesn't have to be set in stone. But it does have to have minimal collateral damage.

I sort of feel like I have no business on a marriage advocacy forum with this type of plan in my future.

OH, I have missed you! I'm so glad to see you here.

I would say that waiting til 2012 is just too long. I worry for you waiting that long.

Have you talked to the kids about it? I would tend to go toward what they want, at their age, if you can do it.

Hello from someone who has mostly been there and done that!

Unfortunately, any plan really depends upon how the husband wants to react.

When I separated from my ex-husband, I really tried to do things as amiably and respectfully as possible. He left loads of dirty laundry behind him. I picked it up, sorted it, washed it, folded it, packed it up, and delivered it to where he was staying. However, he never would come and get his personal belongings. So, eventually, on the advice of my attorney, I put his stuff in the driveway and sent him a notice to pick it up by a certain date or it would be hauled away. The point is, we don't always get what we want.

Can you give us some indication as to the husband's attitude towards separating/divorcing?

I agree with catperson that 2012 is too long.

What I ended up doing (after I demanded that SD leave my home) was filing for divorce, because I need to secure my finances against his behaviour. Because I have the house, I went ahead and hired an attorney, but she's one of my BFF's so she let me pay her down a little more than the filing fees and I pay her monthly until the fee is paid.

Now, STBX isn't physically out of the house yet, because the only places he has to go are out of range of his long term sub job. So we've had to negotiate how he'll be in the house - in the "spare" room, contributing to the chores & such.

If the housemate situation wasn't working out well, I was going to give him a month's notice to get out.

What you need to remember is that he's an adult. You can have compassion, but he needs to be able to fend for himself. You're NOT his mother. You can tell him this is where it's going, that you're moving on X date, and he needs to figure out what he's going to do. You can ask for his input on how long it will take him to get self sufficient, but don't be held to it or he'll drag it out as long as possible.

As for your place on this forum, I'm in the same boat BUT I propose that we can determine that the CURRENT marriage isn't workable, and still be here because we're determined to figure out what went wrong (even if that's in the choice of partners) and how to make sure we do better next time.

Hugs,
TAC

I'll add a third on that, as well. I don't know what I would have done if I'd been ready to separate and had to stay together for a year and a half or more longer. I'm pretty sure one of us would have been arrested and the other hospitalized.

Oh, and I did change the locks, but not until six months after separating.



Been there, done that, have the very worn t-shirt. We do not have the power to change other people, only ourselves. This means that we must eventually accept that we've made our requests and case, but the answer is "no". Sometimes the answer is "no", and we have to deal with that reality. We have no power to make other people take us seriously, or care about what we say.

Be careful with this. I went through it with a friend I let stay with me during my divorce. A 30 day notice was all that was legally required, but if the person doesn't leave and has established residency, you do have to go through full-scale eviction proceedings.

Thanks, I appreciate it. It's not even an issue until the divorce is finalized (end of September) so I'm not stressing right now. I technically cannot force him to leave (without more court hearings) until then, since there's no basis for a restraining order.

Is it too late to put this as a clause in the divorce agreement? That way, when the divorce settlement is approved and court-ordered, you could (depends upon your state) already have a court order for his removal.

I know 2012 is really out there. On one hand, I've lived with it this long. On the other hand, is it really fair not only to me, but to the kids and even him? I'm certainly not playing the wife part these days. I basically am mom to 2 kids (one is in college, 2 are still home)and a presence that exists where he is concerned. I am not mean or rude. I don't ignore him. I don't insult him. I just choose to have minimal engagement and interaction with him. Yes, I totally agree, it is NOT healthy.

He keeps asking me why I stopped talking to him. I can't make him see the answer but geez, louise, I am scratching my head wondering which part of "why" he missed? I have tried to tell him and he interrupts me and changes the subject to how awful life is for him, or he says that once again, I am not listening to him. Once he even said "you're not listening. If your gums are flapping that means you're not listening". If I tell him (as I did this afternoon) that I don't talk much anymore because a: I have my own issues to work on and don't want his input and b: he has made it clear I am a poor listener every time I start to talk, he tells me that I am destroying the marriage, that I can't possibly think this is going to help matters any. His words today: "you think I don't know what you're doing? You think you're pulling the wool over my eyes? You think this is helping matters any?" Once again, all about him.

The sad part is that the "all about him" part doesn't even bother me anymore. I have just come to expect it.

So talking about anything near and dear to my heart is out. He doesn't understand why...I certainly can't make him understand. I have tried writing things down and delivering by note, by email, etc. He gets angry and wants me to talk to him face to face. "Having things in writing just makes it that much easier for you to throw it back in my face someday".

So, lather, rinse repeat.

The whole job sitch has me stewing in resentment and that's not healthy.

So yes, 2012 is the target date, but that doesn't mean I can't work towards something earlier. I just wish I could wave a magic wand and have it done and have no one hurt in the process.

That and $4.50 will buy me a fancy latte at Starbucks.

p.s. Hi Catperson. I have missed you, too!

We are still so much alike. Just the other day I caught myself thinking 'ok, that's it, I'm back to not speaking to him again, and he'll never even notice.' I've been having creepy dreams about him, too. Maybe I'm starting to figure out in my head how sick our relationship is, which I've been avoiding all these years. I have, though, become more vocal about his negativity. The other night, in the car, it was like one comment after another - the Mexicans, the stupid people, the government, the this, the that...all about how they are screwing him over...probably 10 comments in 10 minutes. And I finally just blurted out 'Can you PLEASE stop talking like that? The world is not out to get you!' And he shut up. I'll have to try it some more, if just to get him to stop talking negative to me.

No, what I really should be doing is saying 'If you keep saying those things out loud, I'm going to end up moving out.' Still too chicken to bring that up again. You're braver than me.

Your H is not as stubborn as mine though. If I'd said PLEASE stop talking like that...he would have said "I'll talk how I want, what's your problem?" Sometimes I think if he would respond like your husband did...just to stop, instead of projecting the anger back to me and trying to make it my problem..well maybe I could deal with it, in that case.

I haven't brought up moving out per se..I just haven't brought up *anything*. The ensuing arguments are just not worth it!

We haven't even given my attorney the property division list, so no, it's not too late. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll mention it to my atty.

I know what you mean. But, this constant verbal abuse he's subjecting you and the kids to is going to wear on all of you.

I hate to say it, but there's no way out of situations like ours without hurting someone. Maybe everyone, but it's like in medicine when sometimes you have to cause hurt in order to make things ultimately better.

I think the question you should ask yourself is do you want to rip the bandaid off quick, or make it slow and painful for a long time?

It's amazing to me how much harder STBX worked on finding a job once I threw SD out of the house and he got the divorce paperwork in the mail.

OH, I'm drawing a blank as far as answers, but I feel your pain, hon, how hard it is living with a hostile partner. I'm hoping you can create enough fun with the kids that your H will want to join in some, too.

Just wanted to say hi to Catperson and the others! Thank goodness this board has REAL posters. That other board is D_E_A_D!!!!

OH, you have lots of options, even if none of them are really appealing. But that's the awareness, acceptance, action. You're at the first part, being aware of the situation, even when it's painful to come out of denial. Are you at a point of acceptance yet, where you accept the limits of what you are able to do? That's when the action gets more clear.

We've talked about some ways to learn to thrive despite your surroundings, but at the time, you weren't interested in that. There are other options, too, as you said, separating with or without POJA. How are you feeling now? Do you want to pick a path, try it for two weeks, and reassess?

Do you have that book, The Dilemma of an Alcoholic Marriage? I think you will find it really validating to read through it, and you'll get a lot of ideas how to deflect the battles, and reconnect a great deal, to like a brother-sister relationship. Where he would pick other folks outside the family as scapegoats, instead of you, because you'd be on the list of folks that "come through" for him again, like in the early days. Would you be interested in something like that?

I've got to be honest, I would love to see you separate, before you totally lose everything you have for your H. I think it would show your kids that marriages aren't just to be tossed away, that sometimes we need to stand up and take action to protect what we have. You remember last time, sleeping on the couch or something, your H did respond to your boundary-setting and start working with you for a time. From way out here, I think this process would be safer emotionally for you *and your minor kids* outside the house. What do you think? Once you two are working a plan, you two could meet for date night and family time, like that newsletter When to Call It Quits, until you have seen the consistency that it takes to move back in.

LA shares how she google "Pro-marriage Christian counselor," and found the person who walked her and her H through the process. What do you think about something like this?

I know I'm all over the board, suggesting letting the marriage die into a sibling-like relationship in one post, and hard charging about saving the marriage the next. I thought about what a marriage advocate is, and I think it is giving it your all. What do you think?

OH,
Like NED I am a bit torn, part of me thinks if he got the right shock he might wake up to what he is loosing, the other part of me thinks he's just one of those who is always the victim and there is nothing that can be done.

I would prefer if you separated BEFORE you turn into one of those people who hate their XS so much they only ever speak of them to vilify them. Bitter and twisted is not wholesome to the soul yanno. I have a friend - sweetest woman in the world. Get her talking about her X an man! Hate oozes out of her.

OTOH I remember setting myself a time period of 2 years to stick out my M. Nearly left a few times, but made it to it.

Don't mind me. I am a Libra. Everything has to be weighed

Are you still sleeping in the same room/bed together?

Yes, but I get there after he's asleep and am gone before he wakes up.

What do you think will happen if you move into another room, or put single beds in there?

Last year, around this time, I moved to the couch. It was my line in the sand to get him on the phone with Steve Harley. It was a horrible two weeks and I do NOT want to repeat that!

OH, you realize what that is, right? It's adjusting your own behavior - what YOU want - to avoid HIS behavior.

What if you make a decision for yourself to - from this day forward - to do ONLY what fits within your own core beliefs? To only do what is right for you, no matter WHAT you expect from him?

I freely admit, I didnt keep up with your thread much before so some of this is new to me.

Right, so just to clarify; you are thinking of D, but still in the weighing up stage. Your H's overall attitude stinks.H appears to believe that the only thing wrong in the M is you. The consequence of taking a stand are worse than the consequences of doing nothing. You believe your H fully understands what you are thinking and feeling about the M. You believe he is making either a deliberate effort to disregard the elephant and/or is truly blind to said elephant getting picked up by you as a precursor to thumping him over the head with it in the form of a D.

Lil, I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Add to that, if he does nothing and eventually *I* do something, he will be able to salve his conscious by pointing to me as the "beyotch who destroyed the marriage".

He was married briefly before we were. I don't know all the details except for his side and I'm sure she was no angel...they were both very young. But misery ensued long before she just up and left him one day. And I think he actually felt vindicated when she did that...as in "ok, SHE destroyed the marriage" (the marriage was already in deep doo-doo, but he was able to point to her and cast blame).

I suspect the same thing will happen here. It used to really bug me and that's part of what kept me here. I've moved past that a bit...but yes, I'm still in the weighing up stage. Mostly weighing up the WHEN, not the WHY.

He's said as much to me recently, BTW. "Do you know what you ar doing to 22 years of marriage when you act this way?"