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Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #341113
03/21/14 04:29 PM
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star*fish Offline OP
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aeri,

just throwing ideas out there….

Do you think it would help if we got volunteers *who other members would trust or could nominate*…not to moderate…but to leave symbolic reminders when posters might want to do a self-meta check? The moderators would only step in if the meta continues beyond the reminders.


"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #341114
03/21/14 04:30 PM
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Miranda Offline
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meta medics? like ut oh, someone call the meta medics?


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: Miranda] #341115
03/21/14 04:31 PM
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star*fish Offline OP
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LOL yes Miranda….something like that. grin


"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #341116
03/21/14 04:34 PM
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star*fish Offline OP
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I think another one might be something that tells people in a funny way to "take it outside" (meaning take the debate to the TD)


"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #341123
03/21/14 05:08 PM
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Telly Offline
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Quote:
it's also a way to make sure that diverse points of view, including hardline and gender-based approaches are not drowned out or silenced…which is so often the point of meta-discussion. Of course that means neither side will get shut down. The only thing being shut down will be the effort to silence other views.


Yes, I see this is clearly a goal...


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Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: Telly] #341127
03/21/14 05:40 PM
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Telly--does the "..." mean there is more? Maybe a "but"?


"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #341128
03/21/14 05:46 PM
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No! No but at all.

I am just tired.

That was all I wanted to say--that I see this is a goal.

(You had said it might be hard for some poeple to see, and I do not find it to be so).

smile


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Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: Telly] #341131
03/21/14 06:05 PM
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Thanks for explaining, I just wanted to make sure if you had some other concerns, I didn't dismiss them.

Last edited by star*fish; 03/21/14 06:09 PM. Reason: Typo

"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: *~aeri~*] #341140
03/21/14 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: *~aeri~*
Not sure if this is helpful, but the checklist that I go over (in my mind) when I read posts in the "help" areas includes questions like: "Can I identify with this problem"? or "Do I have a relevant viewpoint on this subject"?

If I can't answer yes to either of those questions, I don't post. If I'm only agreeing with another poster, I'll usually give a reason why I agree and it's generally some personal experience I have with the subject.


The sticky is a great idea but I just want to say again that sometimes... all someone wants is to know there are others out there listening - witnesses to their journey.

By NOT writing because someone has already said what you want to say, you are removing another witness for the original thread starter. This is my most important point and the one I've been trying ot make all along.


A happy marriage is a long conversation which always seems too short. --Andre Maurois

Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: wiser_now] #341156
03/21/14 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: wiser_now
I just want to say again that sometimes... all someone wants is to know there are others out there listening - witnesses to their journey.

By NOT writing because someone has already said what you want to say, you are removing another witness for the original thread starter. This is my most important point and the one I've been trying ot make all along.


AGREED

Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: Rich57] #341157
03/21/14 08:19 PM
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Miranda Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rich57
Originally Posted By: wiser_now
I just want to say again that sometimes... all someone wants is to know there are others out there listening - witnesses to their journey.

By NOT writing because someone has already said what you want to say, you are removing another witness for the original thread starter. This is my most important point and the one I've been trying ot make all along.


AGREED


And witnessed


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #341161
03/21/14 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Do you think it would help if we got volunteers *who other members would trust or could nominate*…not to moderate…but to leave symbolic reminders when posters might want to do a self-meta check? The moderators would only step in if the meta continues beyond the reminders.


I think this is a fine idea! It takes pressure off mods and since it only requires a member to place a symbolic reminder, it's not a huge dedication of time or effort.

Sorry I didn't reply sooner....it's Friday, but work got busy all of a sudden...


Married my best friend 7/23/05



Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: wiser_now] #341164
03/21/14 08:37 PM
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Quote:
By NOT writing because someone has already said what you want to say, you are removing another witness for the original thread starter. This is my most important point and the one I've been trying ot make all along.


Well, my intent wasn't to stifle conversation, it was only a guideline. The example I gave was my own personal dialogue.

I think Star is more focused on things going completely meta and derailing the thread. With that in mind, having a sticky that explains meta wouldn't keep people from supporting a new member or a member with a serious issue.

It's still okay to say "I feel for you" or "hugs" as we often do!


Married my best friend 7/23/05



Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #341169
03/21/14 08:48 PM
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Quote:
The sticky could contain the kind of things you mentioned, it might also contain Sarah Fitz-Claridge's short paragraph about how to avoid getting sucked into the meta-swamp.


Yes, that's what I envisioned.

I think I may have mentioned this before, but as human beings we are often afraid of things we don't understand. A lot of us are frightened by change.

I think when people encounter discussions about "meta" and they don't feel confident of the meaning of 'meta" they hesitate to become involved OR they fight back against something they don't understand.

I'm guilty of it and I'm pretty tech-savvy.


Last edited by *~aeri~*; 03/21/14 08:59 PM. Reason: Clarification

Married my best friend 7/23/05



Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: *~aeri~*] #341181
03/21/14 09:27 PM
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Quote:
What is the best way to avoid adding fuel to the meta fire?

Simple: DO NOT ENGAGE with it. Resist your compulsion to reply to meta comments. Do not rise to the bait. Stick to discussing the on- topic issue and delete all meta comments from your post before you hit ‘send’. Don't be drawn. Don't be provoked. Rise above it.


Translation to clique-speak:

Be the first to meta-attack, thereby leaving your target open to criticism for retaliatory engagement!

Sorry, but that's the real world view from a long-time riser to the bait from attacks received.

But in a spirit of cooperation:

...it only requires a member to place a symbolic reminder...



You may offer it to all other "monitors", as a gift!

Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: NeverGuessed] #341183
03/21/14 09:31 PM
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Ng, it seems to me you are confusing Meta with opposing views.

Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: SmilingWife] #341185
03/21/14 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted By: SmilingWife
Ng, it seems to me you are confusing Meta with opposing views.


{paragraph deleted upon TC's request}

Some folks are more adept at using meta as a cloak-and-dagger attack on a poster with whom they disagree. I think this particular tactic is at the crux of much of what Mark referred to as a recurrent problem or dynamic. It took me awhile before I recognized that tactic, but I had reacted to it on a subliminal level for a while. I guess my gut recognized it as a sort of covert shark-tank tactic.

Just my thoughts.

Last edited by star*fish; 03/22/14 02:09 AM. Reason: request
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: TC_Manhattan] #341186
03/22/14 12:02 AM
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NG…Your quote came from a writer in the UK who has nothing to do with MA or any cliques. I found it a couple of years ago, so it definitely wasn't written in response to what goes on here.

However, since your post is on topic and within TOS, I will leave it here.

TC…The part of your post that is about NG is meta, and I'd like you to please edit that part. He is not the topic of this thread. The rest of your post about how people use meta is to attack other people is definitely on topic.


"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #341187
03/22/14 12:10 AM
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wiser,

Quote:
The sticky is a great idea but I just want to say again that sometimes... all someone wants is to know there are others out there listening - witnesses to their journey.

By NOT writing because someone has already said what you want to say, you are removing another witness for the original thread starter. This is my most important point and the one I've been trying ot make all along.


I think you are not the only one worried or confused about this, but while "witnessing" might be meta…it just isn't the kind of meta that would need an alert.


"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #341191
03/22/14 12:55 AM
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star*fish Offline OP
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Quote:
Be the first to meta-attack, thereby leaving your target open to criticism for retaliatory engagement!

Sorry, but that's the real world view from a long-time riser to the bait from attacks received.


The first person to meta-attack would not get a pass. That's what's been happening for a long time. It is the exact dynamic that we are seeking to change. The pattern has been:

~OP posts a problem

~a poster (P1) gives advice

~poster (P2) comes along with another POV, and also includes something (within TOS) that discredits P1.

~P3 defends P1 and adds a barb for P2

~P1 returns to defend his POV and uses {insert TOS violation} to fight back/win the argument with P2

~P1 draws the flag for TOS violation.

~P2 who started the meta… gets no flag.

~P1 calls bullshinola and questions the mods…and can't understand why P2 didn't get flagged too.

~P1 gets sent to PB

~OP doesn't know what to think


The purpose of this thread is to try and change that. To start when the meta first appears, so that there isn't any bait to take.

Of course it's happening now…no changes have occurred yet…and they won't if I can't even convince anyone that we might be able to do it.

And finally…."the world class view from a long time riser to the bait" ? Why is anybody responsible because you keep taking the bait? Doctor my arm hurts whenever I do this….

Last edited by star*fish; 03/22/14 01:13 AM. Reason: typos and other ridiculous mistakes

"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #341194
03/22/14 01:16 AM
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This must be frustrating sometimes, Star*fish.

I think this could work. I really do.

I think the bozo sign is kinda funny, but probably wouldn't be a good idea to use.

I'm sure we could think of something to use as a kindly reminder, and frankly, I would be willing to participate on the "meta-alert" team. wink I often feel like I can see the train coming pretty far down the track.

It's important to note that if kindly reminders are ignored, and moving things to the TD (don't know if the meta-alert team would have that power) doesn't stop things, then those people should be temporarily put in the PB.

Fwiw, I think it should take lesser infractions to get to the PB when it comes to meta. Why does a few days in the PB have to equal something to get totally in an uproar about? If you are disrupting threads in a negative way (and refuse to stop doing so even when reminded), then maybe you need a time-out. wink

Nothing says "learn how to avoid negative meta" better than kindly reminders, relocated posts, and a few days in the PB if it comes to that.

Just my .02


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Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: Telly] #341207
03/22/14 02:30 AM
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Telly!! omg! Really?

I'm actually hoping to avoid more PB if possible, and give people an opportunity to self-edit first…so they have some control over how it's edited. If they ignore that opportunity (and haven't broken TOS), the mods can edit and send it to the TD, where they can continue to debate-away from the help thread. If they've already broken TOS before they get a chance to edit…then they will be subject to regular moderation and moved to the TD. If they continue beyond that point…they'll almost certainly end up in the PB. The uproar about the PB is kind of amazing to me too.


"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #341214
03/22/14 02:58 AM
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Um, I've been gone a couple of days and trying to keep up with this thread after it got away from me. Star* could you please point me to the Number on the post where it talks about how Telly said this could work? I'm a bit lost on what exactly you et. al. have formed up....something about a reminder, or stopping the meta before it gets out of hand. Thanks in advance.


I thank God for all the times he saved my life, for putting all the people in my path who helped save it, and all the other people I met along the way.
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #341215
03/22/14 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted By: star*fish
aeri,

just throwing ideas out there….

Do you think it would help if we got volunteers *who other members would trust or could nominate*…not to moderate…but to leave symbolic reminders when posters might want to do a self-meta check? The moderators would only step in if the meta continues beyond the reminders.


Um, well I'm not expert on this forum, but I can tell you straight up that leaving it to the members "who other members would trust or could nominate" leaves out a lot of people. Just sayin'


I thank God for all the times he saved my life, for putting all the people in my path who helped save it, and all the other people I met along the way.
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #341216
03/22/14 03:01 AM
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Your quote came from a writer in the UK who has nothing to do with MA or any cliques.

Can you get me a citation? Seriously! I did not think I was quoting ANYBODY (and I don't even know which line of mine is the supposed plagiarism), as who beside myself is so consistently...obstreperous?

And for the record....TC_M deciphered my meaning exactly, in the portion left for my reading!

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