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Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #340766
03/19/14 02:42 PM
03/19/14 02:42 PM
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NeverGuessed Offline
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Okay, so let's examine a real-time (today) actual note-chain, and vote(?) as to whether the "to" or the "fro" of the exchange constituted "negative" meta.

I posted (and given my milieu it may be inferred that the goal was not to curl up into a fetal position):

"To achieve what is required you should do 'x' to the degree of 'y'..."

The next poster wrote (almost verbatim),:

"...and as far as doing 'x' to the degree of 'y', I've never read that in any marriage advice book!"

I responded with:

"If there is some issue with 'x' to the degree of 'y', permit me to more fully justify the advice..."

Soooooo, did my colleague trespass by raising entirely extraneous elements (her non-universal knowledge; the necessity of third parties to support my opinion) in the not-so-veiled "Ignore NG" thrust of her reply?

Was I too pointed in my response? Had I gone further (Hey, speak to your OWN advice!), would THAT have been improper?

Anybody? Everybody?

Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: Fiddler] #340794
03/19/14 04:06 PM
03/19/14 04:06 PM
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poet Offline
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Originally Posted By: Fiddler
I don't see the need or benefit in the "I agree with X" post.


Here is a benefit that you may or may not agree with, but it's FTR. In fact, your post just jogged my memory:

When I was in my crisis stage, I was posting a lot in the beginning. While most of the posters were constantly changing, there were a few who were somewhat constant and those were the people I began to communicate with. After some time, I started getting posts from another member, and the two were not jiving. Of course, I listened to the first person because he was the one I had been growing to trust. Then they started talking to each other on my thread, and the first person just poof --- disappeared. Suddenly, I got about 50 posts in a row (that may be a little exaggerated, but not a whole lot) from different people.

And all the messages were the same: "Protect yourself." I don't know anything about Toastmasters or their rules, but when 50 people tell you the same thing, you listen.

Last edited by poet; 03/19/14 05:04 PM.

I thank God for all the times he saved my life, for putting all the people in my path who helped save it, and all the other people I met along the way.
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: NeverGuessed] #340810
03/19/14 05:03 PM
03/19/14 05:03 PM
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NG:

The response you received was meta.

Had you responded to that meta remark, you would have been in meta territory, as well.


Married my best friend 7/23/05



Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: poet] #340811
03/19/14 05:11 PM
03/19/14 05:11 PM
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poet, I can see the sense in giving more weight to something with which many are in agreement.

For me, that is usually down the list however. For example, I typically consider the idea itself, to see if it "makes sense" on its merits. The reasons behind why a particular thought might be the ideal one play an important role. In those reasons may be contained things I have not considered in my own "sense" of it.

I would like to try to clarify what I meant by "necessary." For me, ideally a response to a poster on a help thread is all about that poster and their situation; it is not about me. If there is agreement about another poster's though and I have something more to add, then for me "necessary" is met because it reinforces the suggestion and adds value for the OP. The "I agree" by itself adds nothing, other than another "vote" for that thought. While others may find that useful, it seems to me that most of the time that response is not about the OP but the "me too" one. For me, it is not "necessary" in the sense that it does not contribute anything.

Sometimes commonly held beliefs can be inaccurate, so an idea may be very popular and yet not be on the mark. I have seen this frequently in the realm of communication, as one example.


"Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know that one is me."
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: Fiddler] #340813
03/19/14 05:39 PM
03/19/14 05:39 PM
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
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Quote:

"To achieve what is required you should do 'x' to the degree of 'y'..."

The next poster wrote (almost verbatim),:

"...and as far as doing 'x' to the degree of 'y', I've never read that in any marriage advice book!"

I responded with:

"If there is some issue with 'x' to the degree of 'y', permit me to more fully justify the advice..."

Soooooo, did my colleague trespass by raising entirely extraneous elements (her non-universal knowledge; the necessity of third parties to support my opinion) in the not-so-veiled "Ignore NG" thrust of her reply?


No she did not. Because nothing in her post even suggested "ignore NG." It was a simple clarification that the purpose of scorched earth, destroy the WW's entire life, exposure is probably NOT with the honest goal of reconciliation.

Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: Fiddler] #340817
03/19/14 05:52 PM
03/19/14 05:52 PM
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star*fish Offline OP
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NGin your examplehere is what I see:

You posted to someone needing help. You did not break TOS, but your response was very direct plain-speak.

It was perhaps interpreted by another poster as too harsh, or unsubstantiated, even unwise. So another poster replies with their advice, but inside of the response is a sentence challenging your advice.

Your first post was not meta.

The second post (absent the criticism of your advice) was not meta.

The comment about your advice was definitely meta.

If you had responded to her comment about your advice it would be meta x2.

It's already negative meta.but whether it becomes truly destructive or nothighly depends on your willingness to either ignore the comment about your advice, or take your argument with the second poster to a more appropriate place to discuss it.

The other person needs to be willing too.

Defending your advice, or proving substantiationis acceptable, but not on the help thread.

In a possible scenariothe first shot across the bow (comment about your advice) would be something you could notify upon(don't know how or to whom yet) and the other person would get an alert for meta (identifying the specific meta) and asked to self-edit and if they didit would be an "oops..yeah I get it". If it wasn't self-edited in a time frame (don't know yet) it would be edited, removed, and put on a meta thread kept in the TD, where it could be appealed.

That's just one possibilitybut I'm sure there are plenty more.

edited to addthe reason I think the comment about NG's advice was meta, is because a phrase of his was quoted. Whether it was quoted to praise or challenge itit would still be meta.

Last edited by star*fish; 03/19/14 06:04 PM.

"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #340818
03/19/14 06:04 PM
03/19/14 06:04 PM
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
How bout this?

Someone who has been there and is thinking rationally about long term ramifications rather than "boy that felt good" reads the scorched earth policy that a particular legalistic site recommends, and they KNOW from actual experience that it can have some very difficult long term ramifications that can impede reconciliation....

What you are saying is that - if they want to share that perspective - they have to make sure not to quote any other advice or have it appear that they are disagreeing with any portion of anyone else's advice?

Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: herfuturesbright] #340820
03/19/14 06:12 PM
03/19/14 06:12 PM
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EarningIt Offline
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Originally Posted By: herfuturesbright
How bout this?

Someone who has been there and is thinking rationally about long term ramifications rather than "boy that felt good" reads the scorched earth policy that a particular legalistic site recommends, and they KNOW from actual experience that it can have some very difficult long term ramifications that can impede reconciliation....

What you are saying is that - if they want to share that perspective - they have to make sure not to quote any other advice or have it appear that they are disagreeing with any portion of anyone else's advice?


I don't want to step on Star's toes here but I think that Meta can be avoided in that instance by saying:

"Dear Original Poster, My experience with advice X, Y and Z was very negative for the following reasons...1, 2 and 3."


Remember to hope.

Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: EarningIt] #340821
03/19/14 06:14 PM
03/19/14 06:14 PM
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
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Stop being so smart EI! smile

Actually, I want to thank you for answering clearly, kindly, and without condescension.

I now have a way to fix things AND I don't feel stupid or talked down to.

Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: herfuturesbright] #340823
03/19/14 06:17 PM
03/19/14 06:17 PM
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star*fish Offline OP
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Yes and No.

What I am saying is that a negative comment about another person's advice doesn't belong on a help thread where it can quickly end the OP's ability to get advice when two people start fighting about who's advice is a marriage book or not.

It's perfectly okay to challenge another poster's advice off of the OP's thread and create a "debate scorched earth advice" thread.


"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #340825
03/19/14 06:23 PM
03/19/14 06:23 PM
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star*fish Offline OP
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EIYES! Absolutely! Why would that step on my toes??

The person COULD easily avoid negative meta. As you've proven, commenting on someone else's advice is not necessary to make the point. The way you phrased it would be entirely in the first person and while it might still be meta, it's what SFC calls "positive meta without an agenda".


"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #340826
03/19/14 06:24 PM
03/19/14 06:24 PM
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So once scorched earth is on the table, the only way to give differing advice is start a new thread.

Interesting

Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #340827
03/19/14 06:27 PM
03/19/14 06:27 PM
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Star*, love ya hun, but that makes it a race to see which "side" can respond to the OP first. Thus "boxing out" th other "side" from responding negatively.

I think EI did a great job of framing a response that is not meta but allows both "sides" to present their views within TOS and without direct attack on another poster.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #340828
03/19/14 06:27 PM
03/19/14 06:27 PM
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EarningIt Offline
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Originally Posted By: star*fish
Why would that step on my toes??


'cuz you are on roll and I didn't want to interrupt your mojo.

Herf I am but your humble servant.


Remember to hope.

Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: EarningIt] #340829
03/19/14 06:37 PM
03/19/14 06:37 PM
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It strikes me that its very important how you refer to the advice in question. See how one word kills it:

"Dear Original Poster, My experience with the questionable advice X, Y and Z was very negative for the following reasons...1, 2 and 3."

just more grist for the mill


Remember to hope.

Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: EarningIt] #340831
03/19/14 06:40 PM
03/19/14 06:40 PM
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Well, THAT takes it to the next level!

Would love some feedback from my post...if anyone has any. Thanks Fiddler, for your comment....still absorbing and may get back to you later.


I thank God for all the times he saved my life, for putting all the people in my path who helped save it, and all the other people I met along the way.
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #340832
03/19/14 06:43 PM
03/19/14 06:43 PM
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star*fish Offline OP
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herf,

One of the examples that SFC puts into her article is this one:

Quote:
Not all apparently positive meta-discussion is harmless though. A post ostensibly thanking someone for posting could in some cases actually have a negative agenda, as in the following example:

Well said! Thank you for this brilliant post! Nicely put... unlike the usual confusing philosophical analysis one finds on this forum. This is precisely the type of post that teaches me more about Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged and gives me room to think. Let's have more such clear, compassionate and non-pompous posts like this please!


Now please please.look at this post and tell me what you see.

Quote:
Stop being so smart EI! smile

Actually, I want to thank you for answering clearly, kindly, and without condescension.

I now have a way to fix things AND I don't feel stupid or talked down to.


This is the kind of post that is the subject of this thread. If it was posted somewhere else, it would have huge potential to turn a thread south.

This discussion is not supposed to make ANYBODY look stupid. Everything you dois no different from the same exact things the rest of us doincluding me!


"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #340833
03/19/14 06:45 PM
03/19/14 06:45 PM
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star*fish Offline OP
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Quote:
Star*, love ya hun, but that makes it a race to see which "side" can respond to the OP first. Thus "boxing out" th other "side" from responding negatively.

I think EI did a great job of framing a response that is not meta but allows both "sides" to present their views within TOS and without direct attack on another poster.


I'm not following you. What difference does it make which advice comes first if no one is bashing the other kind of advice?


"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #340835
03/19/14 06:55 PM
03/19/14 06:55 PM
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I totally GET it. The thing about a thread about meta is, it INVITES negative meta to be told/used/stated etc. without any moderation to un-invite it. The thing about negative meta on this thread is just that, negative meta from people who are using sarcasm to fix their own egos and pierce the "other's" ego.

My mother, God bless her soul, use to tell me and I can still hear her voice, saying "Things are not always as they seem." What she didn't say though, was just as relevant as the first. And that is that sometimes, "Things really are as they seem."

Dangit!

Last edited by poet; 03/19/14 06:56 PM. Reason: correction

I thank God for all the times he saved my life, for putting all the people in my path who helped save it, and all the other people I met along the way.
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #340836
03/19/14 06:57 PM
03/19/14 06:57 PM
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star*fish Offline OP
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Scorched earth was never the problem.

not meta:

poster a) I recommend scorched earth.
poster b) I don't believe in scorched earth because ____ and I recommend ____.


meta:

poster a) I recommend scorched earth.

poster b) I don't believe in scorched earth because______and no reputable counselor would recommend it.



Last edited by star*fish; 03/19/14 07:04 PM.

"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #340868
03/19/14 09:20 PM
03/19/14 09:20 PM
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herfuturesbright Offline
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
Originally Posted By: star*fish
Quote:
Star*, love ya hun, but that makes it a race to see which "side" can respond to the OP first. Thus "boxing out" th other "side" from responding negatively.

I think EI did a great job of framing a response that is not meta but allows both "sides" to present their views within TOS and without direct attack on another poster.


I'm not following you. What difference does it make which advice comes first if no one is bashing the other kind of advice?


Because one of your posts seemed to indicate that once advice is given, that advice should not be directly addressed, except to start one's own thread about it.

To just go ahead and have the guts to name what we all know:

Once NG advised someone to scorch the earth with his exposure, I should have started a "scorched earth thread" rather than disagree with scorched earth on the thread. Therefore, it wouls seem that you were saying that the first advice given stands.

As far as what I see in my post to EI, I'll be plainer if that is better:

Your responses to me last night, announcement that you were 'giving up on me" and would "no longer be responding to me" after the assumption that I had bad intent and was determined to misunderstand....

Well, yeah, I felt talked down to, scolded and put in my place, and ignored.

When EI came in and was able to kindly and tactfully give me a solution without intellectualizing in a way that seemed to be "upper handing," I felt better about that method than the "pontificate - assume - scold - ignore" method.

Last edited by herfuturesbright; 03/19/14 09:21 PM.
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: LadyGrey] #340879
03/20/14 12:46 AM
03/20/14 12:46 AM
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star*fish Offline OP
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herfI will be happy to fully explain what cues led me to believe that you were not interested in a real discussion. I will apologize for any hurt I have caused you. But I will not do it here This thread is not about you. Or NG. Or me. It is finding ways to stop meta-discussion from ruining this forum. I want to talk to you and if you want to talk to melet's do it by PM where it belongs. It doesn't belong here. Please let me know by some other means than posting on this thread.


"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: star*fish] #340882
03/20/14 12:50 AM
03/20/14 12:50 AM
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
You are correct, star.

I am bowing out now because I don't want to derail things further.

Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: herfuturesbright] #340885
03/20/14 01:10 AM
03/20/14 01:10 AM
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It is entirely possible to encourage a different course of action then someone else, and even explain why another poster's recommended action didn't work for us WITHOUT disparaging the person or their advice.

The bottom line is that if we actually believe (as Al Turtle has said many times) that ALL people make sense ALL the time, then we have to allow that someone else's position/advice is valid... even if it's not one we would choose.

What if we always posted with THAT as our point of relation to others. I think if we held that kind of charitable view of one another, there would be far fewer instances of negative meta.

There are people that I know (both here and in real life) who make choices that I think are borderline crazy. Maybe even actually crazy sometimes.

But I don't have to argue with them about it. And if they are giving advice to someone else, I don't have to disparage them (or their advice) in order to make my position clear--and that also doesn't mean I have to persuade someone to take my advice.

If I am so invested in a poster or thread that I feel a need to disparage someone else or their advice; or I feel I need to get involved in some way beyond offering my advice (or care, as the case may be), then perhaps I am TOO invested.

I'd like to see people have enough confidence in their own self-worth that it doesn't hinge on how anyone else might reply to their post...

Just my thoughts.








Married 13 years
D10
D5
Re: meta meta everywhere and not a drop to drink [Re: Telly] #340888
03/20/14 01:31 AM
03/20/14 01:31 AM
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I'll tell you my bottom line. I don't like ugly hate-talk or name-calling, but I like meandering conversations, and in my threads, rabbit trails are fine, or talking to each other about a subject that suddenly came up out of nowhere.

So, my question now becomes: Am I allowed to determine what goes on in my own threads?


A happy marriage is a long conversation which always seems too short. --Andre Maurois

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