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Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: Marta] #333807
02/03/14 05:35 PM
02/03/14 05:35 PM
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Oedipus Offline
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Al,
I have been thinking quite a bit about Master/Slave, passive master, and “absolute truths”. My girlfriend often communicates to me in absolutes.
GF quote : “You didn’t tell me that your divorce mediation appointment was moved, I communicated to you that was important to me, you are a liar and I can’t trust you”
GF quote: “We had a fight 12 days ago; you talked to two of our friends about it, and are just now telling me about telling one of them. You are a dishonest person”
We don’t live together and I’m a single dad. When I do have my children she typically doesn’t spend time with me so we will go stretches without seeing each other. Example one is just a case of me forgetting, on three different occasions, to communicate a time change for an event she viewed as critical information.
The second example I wanted to find the right time to tell her because I knew it would be tough but then the talk was derailed by another huge fight.
I realize that in spite of my explanations on why she didn’t receive the information when/how she would like that she views this as passive lying. Are things like this considered passive lying?
I am having a difficult time validating her point of view but still disagreeing. Any disagreement is met with an escalation of conflict and some form of punishment imposed on me; Silent treatment, name calling, or withholding of affection.
When dealing with master talk what can I do to disagree without escalating?

Last edited by Oedipus; 02/03/14 05:44 PM.
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: Oedipus] #333829
02/03/14 06:48 PM
02/03/14 06:48 PM
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Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
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Hello Oedipus, (I really like that you picked that name. It has a lot of great memories for me - memories of learning big stuff.)

Yeah, I think this is a great question and great topic and I believe you are gnawing on the right starting place for the solution. How to communicate peacefully when you disagree.
Lots of people don't seem to know how.

This seems a distinguishing characteristic of our modern culture. On the one side there are the bullies who act "my way or the highway" and their side-kicks the passive and silent agreers. On the other side are the people who delight in learning and "sharing it all" and who thrive on different points of views and disagreement. I think each of us has to settle on which side we want to be on as we move into the future.

I think the most valuable place to notice this is in an intimate couple relationship. This is a place, I believe, where the skills are most needed and most challenged.

I have been challenged recently to teach a short specific course on communication and as I started writing up the outline I was pondering how different my approach might be from that of others who teach communication. Ah well, it is what it is.

I like your quotes from your GF. She seems to have strong feelings and ideas. I like her.

Most people seem to present what I am lately calling faux-facts or faux-truthes. These are statements of opinion or belief that are stated as facts or absolutes. If stated as a belief or opinion these sentences most often come across as sharing and friendly. If stated as faux-facts, they seems to come across as the beginning of a war. MasterTalk, faux-facts are to me the same thing.

Arguments (and a lot of what is called Passive Aggression) mostly seems to be about faux-facts and whether you should believe her faux-facts or vice versa. To listen to her peacefully you would have to "correctly" translate each of her faux-facts into its form as a thought or a sharing. That's work you many not be used to and may be exhausting.

I think, in the long run, it's more relaxing for everyone to quit the faux-facts/mastertalk game. But that takes learning.

I was glad you shared your thoughts about the situation when she spoke her quotes. I would also love to know what was her situation when she spoke them. I am used to the idea that "word is not the thing it refers to." Her phrase probably doesn't represent her experience too well, and certainly doesn't represent your experience she seems to be referring to. Both would probably feel misunderstood.

Which leads me to the answer to your question. First seek to make her feel heard (mirror or equivalent), then seek to understand what she is saying ("All people make sense all the time."), then seek to prove to her (Validate) that you understand her - all BEFORE you start sharing what you are thinking. Eventually, by example, guide her to do the same to you.

And one thought. If you are having trouble "validating her point of view but still disagreeing" then my guess is you have some more critical things to learn about "Validating." I think it is almost impossible to validate someone if I think I should agree with them.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #334565
02/08/14 07:35 PM
02/08/14 07:35 PM
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I have looked at your validating, and I do get it. Each person is very clear to themselves on why they take actions. Or maybe they aren't clear to themselves, but that is their issue not mine to know. And I understand seeing that and respecting them.

The issue I am having now is figuring out how to organize my thoughts and what I even feel safe with anymore.

Fine, they cheated, they left, fine I really do respect them for living their life large where ever that took them. I don't even mean that sarcastically. Life is for living and growing, I really embrace that.

I am finding I am just in a confused state now, daily. I second guess myself, actually it is not even myself, I second guess what I think about what a person did.

It is taking up a lot of me time I feel. I could ask how long this will take, but I already know that answer.

So to sum it all up, my life is not what I thought it was, not sure what it is anymore.

So many confusing things that stick themselves in the way of clearly seeing what it is that is the entire picture. You start a relationship with just you and them. And when problems arise instead of looking at the you and them there are so many issues that are not the relationship that are factored, jobs, money, insurance, health. To factor what to do. Which I feel getting to the pinpoint of the relationship would be best. Otherwise what is it, a business?

Last edited by Princessdiehard; 02/08/14 07:43 PM.
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: Tinker] #334578
02/08/14 10:28 PM
02/08/14 10:28 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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To me, this is the perfect time for a good counselor - a person who can "walk" with you as you reassemble yourself, get clear about your boundaries, and begin to more fully express yourself (the person you are) in this world of ours. I think you've reached/earned it.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #334767
02/10/14 04:02 PM
02/10/14 04:02 PM
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I got one and I did not like hearing some of what was said, I suppose if one knew the enormity they would be able to deal with every single issue in their heads and past.

I am not sure the board would like it if I started expressing myself more fully lol I already am pretty expressive. smile In a I am not sure of anyone kind of way.

Al the appointments are hard to return to, you know that of course.

With all this, I really wonder if anyone has no problems if anyone is "normal" and I would have rather not earned this, but if I hadn't just think I would have gone around with a muffler on my head not fully aware.

I did find your validating essay eye opening. I am not sure that is a natural way to speak, I don't know of anyone who does that except on this board. Well, and my therapist.


Last edited by Princessdiehard; 02/10/14 04:07 PM.
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: Tinker] #334770
02/10/14 04:12 PM
02/10/14 04:12 PM
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Miranda Offline
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Pdh,

I have figured out that sometimes when I am in therapy and don't like what is being said, and when it is difficult to go, those are the times when I need to be there the most.

If the therapist is only telling me what I want to hear, and I don't have to struggle and work for it, nothing is really "happening" in there. I'm not really growing at that point. Growing is often uncomfortable, and it isn't often easy. So I figure the fact that I'm uncomfortable is a sign of something that I need to work on, or look at some more or get through.

Of course there are bad therapists, and therapists who maybe just aren't the "right fit" for you. That's a whole different kettle of fish.

so, just my 2 cents, there.


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: Tinker] #334831
02/10/14 06:11 PM
02/10/14 06:11 PM
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Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
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AlTurtle  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Princessdiehard
I got one and I did not like hearing some of what was said, I suppose if one knew the enormity they would be able to deal with every single issue in their heads and past.
I think it is worth figuring out "what are the kinds of things you don't like hearing about" and "why don't you want to hear about them", and how can you learn to value the things you currently "don't like or aren't used to listening to."

Seems to me a therapist can share things that are surprising. If that is all, then it is a matter of your attitude toward "new" ideas. Might be worth developing your explorer side.

Could be a therapist gives you some ideas about how other people see things. Could be you've been living in a "bubble" with a lot of people withholding their thoughts or simply lying. You might want to develop your curiosity about how other people really see things so that you yourself are better informed and happier/more confident cuz you have a wider view of things to chose from.

Could be your therapist is giving you orders of what to do. Might be you don't like orders. Perhaps you could expand your ability to translate their orders into "new thoughts" which you still get to chose among. Perhaps you can learn skills to ask the therapist to speak less authoritatively and still generously.

Could be lots of things.

Originally Posted By: Princessdiehard
I am not sure the board would like it if I started expressing myself more fully lol I already am pretty expressive. smile In a I am not sure of anyone kind of way.
Not sure what you are talking about in that paragraph. Talking too much, too many words, too big thoughts seems always a problem for me. Clingers just run on and on, it seems. Good practice to cut it down and cut to the chase a lot.

Besides I think of this forum more of a place to connect and to share ideas and not a therapy place - though I bet there is a heck of a lot of overlap. Lots of good people here.

Originally Posted By: Princessdiehard
Al the appointments are hard to return to, you know that of course.
Yup. Theoretically therapy is about growing up and growing up can be a [Bleep!]. But we have no choice. Gotta do it sometime. How fast is often up to us.

Originally Posted By: Princessdiehard
With all this, I really wonder if anyone has no problems if anyone is "normal" and I would have rather not earned this, but if I hadn't just think I would have gone around with a muffler on my head not fully aware.
Joke: I heard there was a person once who had no problems - once. In Ohio, I think. But the FBI found him and shot him.

Most people seem to have more or less severe symptoms of PTSD from what is called a "normal" childhood. If you live inside your problems, you may not notice them at all. I think that is why we are social animals. We need the feedback of others to see ourselves - and to thus invest focused energy at "fixing" ourselves.

Originally Posted By: Princessdiehard
I did find your validating essay eye opening. I am not sure that is a natural way to speak, I don't know of anyone who does that except on this board. Well, and my therapist.
Not many. I believe you will find more and more people on the face of the earth (Warning: big thinking here) that are being what I call Dialogical and are talking that way. It is spreading. Could be you live in a little pocket of people who have yet to learn.

Joke: the density of empathic people seems to vary with location. Out here in Seattle area it seems pretty high. Big city singles often seem to be getting it. You were given legs for a reason.

I believe it is a natural way to speak that we all, most of us, have been pretty carefully taught out of.

Tis much easier to learn empathy skills, if you are raised by, surrounded by, people with empathy skills. Harder, if not.

Good luck.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #334864
02/10/14 08:20 PM
02/10/14 08:20 PM
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I didn't post to get any therapy I was just talking the way I do and answering your questions. Anyway.

Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: Tinker] #334900
02/10/14 11:07 PM
02/10/14 11:07 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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I hear you. Didn't think you were asking for therapy.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #335346
02/13/14 01:13 AM
02/13/14 01:13 AM
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too much like asking about something never mind




Last edited by Princessdiehard; 02/13/14 01:19 AM.
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: Tinker] #335359
02/13/14 05:35 AM
02/13/14 05:35 AM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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AlTurtle  Offline OP
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Actually I read what you posted and you seemed right on with the idea.

Master-Slave does seems like six slippery balls or postures when two people are together. Both can slip around among their own three positions. And their partner can, also. Lots of chaos. And I think that is like a "normal" couple buried in the Master-Slave way of relating usually in the Power Struggle stage of Relationship.

Much easier/simpler to be Friend-Friend or even I think it much easier to be Friend to a person moving among the three Master/Slave positions. Of course you have to get good at hanging in that Friend position pretty firmly.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #335647
02/15/14 04:33 PM
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As in the friend position being mistaken as a slave, correct?

I have noticed the positions of this even in a long conversation.

One thing I am talking to my therapist about is the issue of what I have noticed. It seemed a solid relationship to me and then the affair happened, and now it is quite a task to feel a starting over, not the part with myself but even dealing with my wh, the relationship seems a flat line at a start but very backwards with damage from this. And it is I believe too much to bother starting all over with wh when we already have spent so many years together, I am not sure I can or want to or even if they are in the frame of mind to see this at all.

Just an observation because you said this master slave is common in the beginning of relationships, and it seems a lot of chaos all the time with any dealing, it is exhausting.

Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: Tinker] #335703
02/15/14 11:57 PM
02/15/14 11:57 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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AlTurtle  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Princessdiehard
As in the friend position being mistaken as a slave, correct?
Not sure which sentence of mine you are referring to, here. Maybe you could say more.

Originally Posted By: Princessdiehard
One thing I am talking to my therapist about is the issue of what I have noticed. It seemed a solid relationship to me and then the affair happened, and now it is quite a task to feel a starting over, not the part with myself but even dealing with my wh, the relationship seems a flat line at a start but very backwards with damage from this.
Remember, it seemed solid to you cuz things were going on with your husband that you were "blind" to. Living in "delusion" is another way of saying it. Of course you can learn to avoid that or do it again. Tis your choice.

Originally Posted By: Princessdiehard
And it is I believe too much to bother starting all over with wh when we already have spent so many years together, I am not sure I can or want to or even if they are in the frame of mind to see this at all.
Look at your choices. I certainly can't tell you what to do. Starting with him has its drawbacks. Starting with another has its drawbacks. Which has fewer drawbacks? As far as I can see couples can't escape the Power Struggle. At least with your wh you have that behind you.

Originally Posted By: Princessdiehard
Just an observation because you said this master slave is common in the beginning of relationships, and it seems a lot of chaos all the time with any dealing, it is exhausting.
Very exhausting. And not worth it, I believe. But very common.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #335904
02/17/14 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Originally Posted By: Princessdiehard
As in the friend position being mistaken as a slave, correct?
Not sure which sentence of mine you are referring to, here. Maybe you could say more.



No that idea was from me, not what you said. I was thinking a master type thinking person could mistake a friend type thinking person as a slave.

Confusing myself now. crazy

Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: Tinker] #335980
02/18/14 03:35 PM
02/18/14 03:35 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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I like what you say. I think a Master-type person is often a bit like a "hammer" that mistakes everyone for a "nail." That mistake may go on until the Friend speaks. I think a trained Friend-type person pretty reliably signals they are not a "slave," particularly to someone who approaches them as Master or Passive-Master. If you want to be Friend-type, then silence won't work for you, cuz Master-types will mistake you for a "slave." Methinks. (Oh Slave-types my mistake you for a Master.)
Tis all kinda fun, and predictable.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #336820
02/26/14 03:27 AM
02/26/14 03:27 AM
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Al,

I really appreciate your time and response. Your website and this whiteboard have been such great tools for learning.

Originally Posted By: AlTurtle


Quote:
I like your quotes from your GF. She seems to have strong feelings and ideas. I like her.


I'm curious what about her strong feelings and ideas it is that you like?

Quote:
I was glad you shared your thoughts about the situation when she spoke her quotes. I would also love to know what was her situation when she spoke them. I am used to the idea that "word is not the thing it refers to." Her phrase probably doesn't represent her experience too well, and certainly doesn't represent your experience she seems to be referring to. Both would probably feel misunderstood.


Yes I am beginning to realize that often times I receive a question or a phrase from her and assign an entirely different meaning of my own to it.

Quote:
And one thought. If you are having trouble "validating her point of view but still disagreeing" then my guess is you have some more critical things to learn about "Validating." I think it is almost impossible to validate someone if I think I should agree with them.


I understand that validating doesn't mean agreement (if two people are agreeing one of them is lying). I believe that my wording probably led you to believe I didn't recognize this.

So I guess the question would be how to disagree politely with someone's faux-facts/master talk when that person seems to have a very low tolerance for disagreement.


Last edited by Oedipus; 02/26/14 03:28 AM.
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: Oedipus] #336925
02/27/14 12:36 AM
02/27/14 12:36 AM
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You don't disagree. You merely confirm that you heard what they said. The essence of learning to validate is to be able to distinguish between repeating back words that were said to you and implying that you are agreeing with them. You can say the words (to confirm you received the message being sent) without agreeing with the words.

Her: you are an idiot
Me: Sorry to hear you think I am an idiot. What is it like to be in a relationship with a guy you think is an idiot?

At no point do you need to disagree / argue that she is wrong, or that you are NOT an idiot. If she says "oh, so you agree you are an idiot", you can say "no, but I am glad you shared with me your view that I am. Can we explore that further?"


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
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