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Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: Ace] #335539
02/14/14 02:58 PM
02/14/14 02:58 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
Here's a question:

Regarding martyrdom, victimhood, and nobility:

When we choose to enable that - even if we wrap it in psychological and support group sounding rainbows - are we HELPING this person?

I mean really, let's get honest.



Are we helping?

If my DD were cutting herself and told me life hurts too much to stop, if I tell her about the cutting story I read the other day, pat her on the head, and make sure all her razor blades are sterile....am I helping my daughter?

Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: herfuturesbright] #335541
02/14/14 03:12 PM
02/14/14 03:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,535
Ace Offline OP
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Ace  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: MyRevelation
Let me fill in a little of the backstory, too. I have known Ace for 6+ years now ... she was one of the first, who reached out to my WW (FogFree) and they formed a connection that made its way to private emails and lasted for some time, although I don't think they've communicated in a couple of years. Maybe its because I know her better than others, but Ace has my appreciation and respect ... appreciation for how she reached out to FF ... and respect for her honesty as I know her to be the same personality offline as she portrays herself to be here.

Ace and I don't always agree ... maybe even rarely ... because of our diverse personalities, as Ace is a much kinder, gentler soul and I am more outspoken with a tendency to embrace conflict, rather than shy away from it.


What can I say but "thank you" MyRev. Glad I could be of help.

Originally Posted By: MyRevelation
When Ace describes FogFree's username as presumptuous ... I can see where that name would suggest such a judgment. However, it was real, because after "My Revelation", I simply refused to tolerate the excuse of "fog".


With respect to the gender perspectives alluded to on parts of this thread, you may have thought your refusal to tolerate fog was reality but it was only YOUR reality. I saw something different, possibly because, as a women I perceived her posted words differently. I saw a tinge or a smidgen of barely detectable defensiveness in one post which inspired me to question her thoughts. My reality was shrouded in what I later learned was BS Fog so maybe that's why I could perceive it via words when you may not have seen it IRLUCAP (in real life, up close and personal.) What matters most now, however, is that you recovered in YOUR way based on YOUR reality and YOU are BOTH happy.

Originally Posted By: MyRevelation
So, with that base of experience, and after 6+ years on relationship sites, I still contend that a strongly worded and enforced ultimatum is the best prescription for clearing "fog" from a WW that I've seen. To my mind, LIMBO is the worst possible situation a BH can find themselves ... I would much rather be in D court than to experience the cake-eating LIMBO many BH's endure.


Like I said, that's YOUR reality. I endured cake-eating LIMBO for 6 months and 4 D-days. One reason I was able to tolerate it was because of my sheer ignorance. I forgave, forgot and thought it was all behind us because I didn't know better...3 times! After the 4th, I issued my ultimatum like you suggested. If I had done it the first time, we'd be D'd today. That's MY reality and I don't expect anyone else to adopt it just because it was best for me and us.

Originally Posted By: MyRevelation
Now ... I'd like to address the title of this thread ... I don't think "effectively" and "respectfully" necessarily are a package deal. I still keep in contact with a handful of BH's, who stayed in contact because of the "tough talk" that got them back to where they wanted to be, but it most certainly was not "respectful", especially at first, when they weren't acting "respectful" to themselves. It's hard to be respectful when you're calling out another guys manhood, but at times that's necessary for him to reclaim his self-respect. He has been beaten down for so long, that he no longer has the ability to stand up TO himself, but most guys can still get their back up when someone else calls them out. Once they tap into their anger and start standing up for themselves to others, it's much easier to transition into standing up TO themselves and start reclaiming their self-respect.


I did not read the SI link but those who are posting "tough talk" to the guy described appears to be Exhibit A of what you and others think MA should embrace. How's that working for him? scratch Is that approach being effective? For me, I'd rather go the respectful route than the rude route.

Originally Posted By: MyRevelation
However, the problem here is that MA TOS (as interpreted) doesn't allow such "tough talk", because the "least common denominator of the most easily offended" won't accept anything like what I described above, which has led to enabling and validation being the "face" of MA, to use herf's term.

If MA was serious about being a "help" site, they would allow all types of advice, in whatever form, and let the BH decide for himself what is more effective for their personality and circumstances, but that won't happen here, even though at one point it was PROMISED.


I'll take part of the blame for MA requesting respect at all costs. After what I and many others, especially our site founders, endured in previous forum lives, we wanted to approach the "we're here to help" issue in a way that invites folks to share, not subjects them to shame.

If MA was the only discussion forum in the world, I agree with you. But in an era of multiple sources, IMVHO MA chooses to be the kind of help forum that respects folks in their pain, challenges them to grow, provides educational resources to help them choose to change and protects them within the limits afforded by TOS to give them time to make progress as THEY so choose. BTW, the Thunderdome allows tough talk to any poster desiring to receive it after a mere 25 posts. In the meantime, the Enough is Enough Forum provides an opportunity for stronger talk as well. If that's not what you want in a forum, I strongly suggest you start your own with your own TOS that reflects YOUR reality.


Actually, Hold (I-don't-like-to-be-called-HOTI wink ) says it best:
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
I agree with MyRev that his suggested technique is more effective than staying within MA TOS for a certain subset of BHs. Those who will not defend themselves from abusive WWs. The objective is to continue ratcheting up the rudeness until you get the BH riled up and angry with you. The whole point is to take it past forcefully polite into rude and insulting if forcefully polite does not trigger anger and self-defense. You keep hitting the guy until he fights back, or at least until he says "please stop insulting me". You don't stop when some third party says "please stop insulting him, it hurts my feelings to watch".

However, it seems to me that that the BoD has considered this several times and has rejected this process. In part because of understandable concerns about legal liability to the target of the rude comments, in part because of fear of losing MA's federal tax exemption, and in part out of concern that this violates strongly held values of many (most? all?) of the BoD.


There are rules regarding what a "educational site" is and MA is fortunate to measure up to IRS scrutiny, even with the TD which might have been viewed as a "bash box."

Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
If it were up to me, I would try to find a way to host a "free for all zone" in which TOS were relaxed. If anyone other than the designated "target" of a comment hits the notify button in that zone, instead of putting the poster of the "objectionable" material into the PB, I would ban the notifyer from reading in the free for all zone. In other words, the enforcement mechanism for the free for all zone would be that those who can't take the heat are prohibited from entering the kitchen, instead of trying to reduce the heat there. But for all I know this does not resolve the legal concerns, and it may not be palatable to the BoD.


For now MA's version of this FFAZ are the EiE forum, TD and PB option. It is what it is.

Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
I guess you and I will never be well suited for meaningful discourse, HFB. Too bad - I'm really a pretty cool guy!


On the contrary, IMVHO you two have already engaged in meaningful discourse. In volleyball they call it "bump, set, spike" but in the exchange I'm describing I'll call it "contend, acknowledge, apologize." To me this exchange illustrates the ultimate in a respectful discussion:

Originally Posted By: herfuturesbright
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
...the fact that you did not even view the video...and now have an air-tight, will never be amended view of me...is a closed minded, never-wrong thing.

No, my friend, it is an "ice-storm-here-in-NC-causing-loss-of-WiFi-and-forcing-use-of-a-smart-phone" thing!!!!! laugh But I give you appropriate "props" for your willingness to sling off-target, inaccurate pejoratives as casually as any man!!!


I owe you an apology. I will not go into any whiny mantras about "excuses" for me being overly sensitive. Because I am still an adult with control over my actions. So I will just say I apologize. Time to rein myself in a bit.


To use MyRev's words, that's my "brain dump" for the day. I have some "tough talk" of my own but since it's Feb. 14 and I need to get to work, I'll conclude by saying:

Happy VALENTINE'S Day!

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: herfuturesbright] #335543
02/14/14 03:24 PM
02/14/14 03:24 PM
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Marlowe Offline
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Originally Posted By: herfuturesbright
Here's a question:

Regarding martyrdom, victimhood, and nobility:

When we choose to enable that - even if we wrap it in psychological and support group sounding rainbows - are we HELPING this person?


Depends on the context. It worked out pretty well for Mother Teresa.

Without it, she's just some childless old hag satisfying some inner need to make her life seem spiritually extraordinary by profiting on the poverty and misery of children.

There's nothing wrong with noble martyrdom when it is an authentic narrative based on a worldview that proscribes self-sacrifice as a higher form of divinely-inspired human dignity.

There is, after all, no greater love than a man giving up his life for his friends.

Without that, Nate Saint was just a guy pushing Western imperialist dogma on free indigenous peoples.

The rest of us can look at the martyr and try to draw clues about their authenticity and how stoked the furnaces might be in their internal resentment factories, but I don't know that we can really know in most cases what's authentic, what's authentic but too brittle for the current test, what's an attempt to be authentic but fails, and what's just psychological avoidance of conflict.

It takes more time than you're going to get on a message board (unless they're around for years and years, I guess) to make those determinations.

Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: Ace] #335544
02/14/14 03:26 PM
02/14/14 03:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 7,052
holdingontoit Offline
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Marlowe, that was a fabulous post. Spot on explanation of the mechanism.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: Ace] #335545
02/14/14 03:34 PM
02/14/14 03:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
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NeverGuessed Offline
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Ace, as regards HFB's apology, I transcribe below (with her permission) my answer to her our PM chain; you very nicely anticipated it. Impressive!
devil Dude, if Ace is starting to think like YOU, she is to be pitied!

There is NO need to apologize to me, ever. I take NOTHING
here personally. I might "bite back", but at all times it is an
intellectual exercise, NEVER feeling "hurt" or "damaged".

I've enjoyed all my interfaces at MA, and there is no "except"
clause following that statement. You and I, even if we cannot
agree, will generate debate points during our tussles, that
will work to move forward the tenor of expertise at the site.

I don't need your approval, and I certainly acknowledge that
you don't need mine.

Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: NeverGuessed] #335546
02/14/14 03:38 PM
02/14/14 03:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 13,424
midwest
Miranda Offline
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Miranda  Offline
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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed


There is NO need to apologize to me, ever. I take NOTHING
here personally. I might "bite back", but at all times it is an
intellectual exercise, NEVER feeling "hurt" or "damaged".

I've enjoyed all my interfaces at MA, and there is no "except"
clause following that statement. You and I, even if we cannot
agree, will generate debate points during our tussles, that
will work to move forward the tenor of expertise at the site.

I don't need your approval, and I certainly acknowledge that
you don't need mine.


This is fairly awesome, friend!


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: Marlowe] #335547
02/14/14 03:46 PM
02/14/14 03:46 PM
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NeverGuessed Offline
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Marlowe, comparing the beneficence and divine acts of love and charity performed by Mother Teresa, to the self-directed sufferings of less-than-fully-engaged BSs is really a stretch, if for no other reason than the demonstrable effects on others. How many thousands of Indian paupers led better lives (or lives at all?) because of her actions. Laying that balance against whatever "good" is achieved by those reticent posters is NO contest.

"Sacrifice" means loss attributable to oneself with correlated "gain" to another, or others. If a BS claims to take no action because of possible, likely damage to a special-needs child, maybe a case can be made. Absorbing the insults and hurt administered by a WS to preserve the sanctity of the union, or some-such, is an ephemeral construct that would not be supportable, IMHO.

In any event, the "sacrifice" impulse is usually shown to be a mask for fear, trepidation, and/or over-consideration of "outside" opinion.

Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: NeverGuessed] #335551
02/14/14 04:52 PM
02/14/14 04:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
I have to agree. And the bottom line is:

Mother Teresa took ACTION.

That to me is the big difference.

When someone is in a painful situation for which there is almost certainly a limit of pain tolerance, is enabling action or enabling inaction typically the generally more helpful engagement?

And when someone has made it clear that inaction with continued advertising of their pain is what they thrive on....is the more beneficial response to applaud such masochism or either encourage change or step back from enabling?

Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: herfuturesbright] #335552
02/14/14 05:01 PM
02/14/14 05:01 PM
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midwest
Miranda Offline
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Herf, I can tell you from my experience with personal martyrdom and what it took for me to move off center from it (if I indeed have, there is some debate about that, I believe.) It took a combination of a certain amount of tsk tsk and poor dear coddling, coupled with a certain amount of being kicked in the pants and shown that I could DO something that MIGHT make a difference. Basically that people cared and BELIEVED that I could make a change. Folks somehow invested in me and their investment has kept me invested, even when it was hard. I had to get enough support to keep me here and engaged, and keep me from getting totally ticked off so that I could take in the hard to hear stuff too.

I can't for the life of me figure out how it happened or why. What motivated folks to put that much care into me, when I was obviously such a mess, such a stubborn martyred mule, I will never really understand. But I appreciate it. I know I'm not done with that yet. I still cling to it at times, but I feel like I'll get somewhere with this journey. And it's got to be somewhere better than where I started.


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: herfuturesbright] #335553
02/14/14 05:08 PM
02/14/14 05:08 PM
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CajunRose Offline
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I think that, for some posters, it doesn't matter what anyone else says or advises them to do. The ones who revel in their victimhood are going to ignore the voices encouraging change. They are going to consider themselves even bigger victims if they don't get exactly the response they want here - the posters at MA are ganging up to be mean and cause more hurt!!

Nothing we post will be "right", unless it is "there-there, you poor thing" or "you are making the right choices!". Sympathy for the victim or filling a huge need for external validation.

No one knows whether that poster will at some point decide they are ready to do more than accept sympathy/validation.

No one knows whether the poster has chronic depression and/or another condition that would be helped with medication, and we aren't qualified to suggest or enforce that.

I don't see a win-win outcome in those kinds of situations.

ETA: Miranda, I don't see most of this thread as applying to you and people like you who are slowly moving forward.

Last edited by CajunRose; 02/14/14 05:09 PM.

Current spouse: Night. D10, D9, S7

About me

You can't direct the wind, but you can adjust your sails.

http://www.divorcedmomfinances.com
Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: CajunRose] #335554
02/14/14 05:10 PM
02/14/14 05:10 PM
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Posts: 1,747
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Telly Offline
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If I feel someone can't be helped by a particular kind of support, then I shouldn't offer it.

Others are free to do whatever they wish with regard to how, when, where or why they post to anyone else...


Married 13 years
D10
D5
Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: NeverGuessed] #335556
02/14/14 05:20 PM
02/14/14 05:20 PM
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Marlowe Offline
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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
Marlowe, comparing the beneficence and divine acts of love and charity performed by Mother Teresa, to the self-directed sufferings of less-than-fully-engaged BSs is really a stretch, if for no other reason than the demonstrable effects on others. How many thousands of Indian paupers led better lives (or lives at all?) because of her actions. Laying that balance against whatever "good" is achieved by those reticent posters is NO contest.


You're being myopic. In the case under discussion, he's like a month out from D-day. It's entirely too early to tell if self-sacrifice is self-serving or something more noble. That's where I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Whether or not it's a mask will take some time to work out. I simply don't know him well enough to make that determination at this point.

Quote:
"Sacrifice" means loss attributable to oneself with correlated "gain" to another, or others. If a BS claims to take no action because of possible, likely damage to a special-needs child, maybe a case can be made. Absorbing the insults and hurt administered by a WS to preserve the sanctity of the union, or some-such, is an ephemeral construct that would not be supportable, IMHO.


A BS who endures various levels of degradation necessary to preserve the marriage so that it benefits the well-being of the children (i.e., one where the relationship doesn't degrade into a war of attrition) passes this test.

There's also a difference between "taking no action" and "not laying down the law to your WS". Choosing to heal one's self is taking an action. I may think you're an idiot for how you go about it, but that's a different discussion.

Quote:

In any event, the "sacrifice" impulse is usually shown to be a mask for fear, trepidation, and/or over-consideration of "outside" opinion.


On this, I agree completely.

I chose to reconcile with my wife because of my desire to preserve the financial and emotional comfort of my current life trumped my desire to burn it all down and start again. To put it baldly, any time in that first 18-24 months, if I could have moved her out and moved in Wife #3 (or, really, just moved her out and kept my sons) with a minimum of hassle, I would have been perfectly content to do so.

Keeping the things that were important to me moving along the trajectory and comfortable routines to which I had become accustomed meant that staying married was part part of the package.

That the marriage has been restored to something that mutually benefits both of us is a bonus. It wasn't ever a line item in the cost/benefit analysis.

Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: Marlowe] #335563
02/14/14 06:09 PM
02/14/14 06:09 PM
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holdingontoit Offline
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Originally Posted By: Marlowe
The rest of us can look at the martyr and try to draw clues about their authenticity and how stoked the furnaces might be in their internal resentment factories, but I don't know that we can really know in most cases what's authentic, what's authentic but too brittle for the current test, what's an attempt to be authentic but fails, and what's just psychological avoidance of conflict.

It takes more time than you're going to get on a message board (unless they're around for years and years, I guess) to make those determinations.


And even if you do, what is the correct response, individually and collectively? And are we confident they are the same? That is, a particular member may decide that shunning the roiling pot of resentment is the best response, but are we confident that the entire board shunning the pot of resentment is what is best either for MA or for the pot of resentment?

I am guessing that most of us pots of resentment need an extensive course of therapy from a professional to work through whatever issues lead us to accept wallowing in resentment over pursuing happiness. Short of that, very hard to see how anything anyone at MA does can predictably move the pot of resentment closer to resolution.

If we view a pot of resentment as being always and everywhere a poor choice (like an affair), what to do about it? We don't shun WSs. We encourage exposure of the A. Should we encourage pots of resentment to expose to their spouses? Does anyone really think the spouse is unaware? I am guessing very few spouses are unaware that the pot of resentment harbors resentment.

We often advice BSs to allow their WS to "hit rock bottom". Maybe we collectively feel that we should withdraw our support for pots of resentment so that they can "hit rock bottom" and then hopefully choose to pursue happiness. Despite my stake in this discussion, I am not sure that is a bad idea. But it does require that we are convinced that a life spent as a pot of resentment is morally wrong (as we view affairs). Maybe most of the people here do view it as morally culpable. Maybe we view it as an unacceptable coping mechanism. That it is unacceptable to condemn your spouse to being married to a boiling pot of resentment if they want to stay married to you. Maybe we are all morally obliged to offer our spouses "effort toward happiness" just as we are obliged to offer fidelity.

Curious what others think.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: holdingontoit] #335579
02/14/14 07:53 PM
02/14/14 07:53 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
Miranda I agree with CR. You have always seemed to have a forward progress goal.

Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: herfuturesbright] #335610
02/14/14 11:35 PM
02/14/14 11:35 PM
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Marta Offline
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Originally Posted By: herfuturesbright
Miranda I agree with CR. You have always seemed to have a forward progress goal.


Yep, I've never felt like Miranda is a woe is me endless poster. ( I think everyone is woe is me sometimes.) I always felt like she was TRYING. She is going to counseling, trying to set boundries.. Is she perfect..NO. And I don't think that was the point of the tough talk thread.

I do think that for the majority, males just hear things differently. I had to laugh because I had spoken to my husband about an issue. He sort of agreed, but not really. I just left the issue alone. I didn't want to push. We went to a leadership retreat and my husband asked a question dealing with the point I had made earlier. Boy did he get jumped on. I thought it was a bit harsh. It would have sent me crying into the other room. But my husband went, "Wow, you are right.. I just wasn't getting it." He then got excited about correcting this.. Why didn't my gentle ways work??? I don't know. I know if those men had spoken to me the way they spoke to him, it would have gone badly. And I know that some men are exceptions. But I do think there is a difference.

Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: Marta] #335616
02/15/14 02:33 AM
02/15/14 02:33 AM
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LadyGrey Offline
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It strikes me as the height of arrogance to assume that you are dealing with a static situation such that you get to opine on the correct course of action, then sit back and judge the poster on that basis.

"The poster was told to do 1, 2 and 3 by veteran posters A, B and C, and the poster has yet to do #1! Let's all gather together in Other Topics a/k/a Peer Counseling and talk about them in extremely ambiguous terms such that anyone who is feeling insecure about their support here will wonder whether they are the subject of derision. We are 'oh so careful' about our characterizations such that actually no one who posts here in pain and confusion could exclude themselves from the derided group because we CARE! Almost enough not to talk about you behind your back in public.

But since we are 'oh so careful' -- hey! We are totally off the hook for causing more pain in those who feel attacked since if they had good boundaries it wouldn't matter what we said!"

Rubbish.

No, actually, sewage. Revolting excrement.

If you don't want to post to someone, don't post to them.

If you do want to post to them, do it within the very generous TOS offered here.
Vulgarity
Click to reveal..
This is mental masturbation -- you all get to feel really good about parsing through the moral imperatives behind how to support those who meet your definition of being stuck but the reality is that when you [edit], we gag.

Some of us refuse to swallow.

Get over yourselves and your intellectual superiority. None of this stuff is easy.

Last edited by Chrysalis; 02/16/14 07:15 PM.

Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: LadyGrey] #335619
02/15/14 03:34 AM
02/15/14 03:34 AM
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LivingWell Offline
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claps

and

laugh1

Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: LivingWell] #335630
02/15/14 12:48 PM
02/15/14 12:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
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herfuturesbright  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
Nice.

I post a PICTURE and........
Vulgarity
Click to reveal..
Someone basically accuses me of being a PENIS and ejaculating into someone, and that is way to go.

My circle just got smaller.

I'm done.

I know when I've been wring out.

Yeah...watch me spin.
Thinly veiled personal attack
Click to reveal..
Congratulations, MA. Your new face is people who ramble incoherently, people who are proud of their affairs, and people who think a rainbow colored unicorn will fix everything.

Way to go.

I sure hope my ONE angry post on this thread doesn't "trump" the nice graphic oral sex post above me. I'll be watching.

Last edited by Chrysalis; 02/16/14 07:17 PM.
Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: herfuturesbright] #335631
02/15/14 01:03 PM
02/15/14 01:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,747
T
Telly Offline
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Telly  Offline
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Posts: 1,747
Herf,

I don't know why it's been so triggering for you lately that some people who you think should do something are not necessarily being pushed by everyone.

It makes me wonder--are you feeling frustrated by the path you took, and wish someone had pushed you sooner?

Are you feeling unloved/unsupported/in pain, and are resentful of attention someone else is getting?

Are you feeling frustrated that you've wasted your time?

I just don't understand why people can't post the way they think is best...

I mean, when I posted at MB, I remember really advocating that people follow MB principles (and sometimes being judgmental when others didn't), but we don't have to do that here.

People can offer sympathy if they want, and for as long as they want. If that feels unhelpful, then don't do it.

By the same token, if someone wants to be a tough talker, as long as they don't violate TOS (calling someone names, or whatever it takes to violate TOS), then why can't they do that?

I just don't understand.

I also don't really like threads that have obviously been started in response to a few people. We can all guess who you might feel aren't interesting in "moving". (Hold has assumed you're speaking of him).

I would respectfully ask you to consider why you are so frustrated by this...?

If we're talking about the way station, well... I had to pull out of a few threads, because the fog was so thick. But someone has to be willing to stick it out with those people until the fog begins to clear. A place for WS to experience kindness is one of the hallmarks of MA. Doesn't mean there isn't room to challenge the BS--but you can't violate TOS.

Nor should we assume that OUR advice is the ONLY advice/approach that would work.

If we're talking about particular posters who don't seem to be doing what makes sense to the rest of us, well... We really can't know what's going on with someone inside, or how helpful (unhelpful) what they are receiving is.

Sometimes a person can appear to be standing still for a long time, when there's movement inside that we didn't see.

Why not just avoid the threads that frustrate you?


Married 13 years
D10
D5
Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: Telly] #335632
02/15/14 01:07 PM
02/15/14 01:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,747
T
Telly Offline
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Telly  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,747
Ew... LG, you know that graphic description is going to be edited, right?


Married 13 years
D10
D5
Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: Telly] #335633
02/15/14 01:07 PM
02/15/14 01:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
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herfuturesbright  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
The answer to all those questions is no

And point taken.

My plan was to avoid all threads, so there ya go.
Vulgarity; rflagArguing moderation in open forum.
Click to reveal..
Funny...my post is a problem, but a [edit] post is just fine.


THAT is why I gotta follow my conscience and sanity.

Last edited by Chrysalis; 02/16/14 07:19 PM.
Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: Telly] #335634
02/15/14 01:15 PM
02/15/14 01:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,747
T
Telly Offline
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Telly  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,747
Quote:
Your new face is people who ramble incoherently, people who are proud of their affairs, and people who think a rainbow colored unicorn will fix everything.


Herf, you know I love you, but...

Really?

If you are so bent on action right now--then why not BE the voice you want to hear, instead of beating up on other people for not helping others the way you think is best.

I think LG's post had a disgusting graphic, BUT...

Do you think it wasn't obvious she was one of the people you were talking about?

No one likes to be the thinly-veiled subject of a thread that essentially questions whether or not anyone should continue supporting them...


Married 13 years
D10
D5
Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: herfuturesbright] #335635
02/15/14 01:22 PM
02/15/14 01:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,222
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LivingWell Offline
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LivingWell  Offline
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L
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,222
Originally Posted By: Telly
Herf,

I don't know why it's been so triggering for you lately that some people who you think should do something are not necessarily being pushed by everyone.

It makes me wonder--are you feeling frustrated by the path you took, and wish someone had pushed you sooner?

Are you feeling unloved/unsupported/in pain, and are resentful of attention someone else is getting?

Are you feeling frustrated that you've wasted your time?

I just don't understand why people can't post the way they think is best...



Originally Posted By: herfuturesbright
The answer to all those questions is no

Imho, this could be a good example to help others understand.

That was a pretty quick "no" and that indicates to me that you are sure that none of those issues are yours.

However, what if someone else has a different opinion.... what if they are convinced that those really are your issues and you're just "stuck"?

What kind of tough talk would be effective and help you get "unstuck"?

What kind of tough talk would be over the line and not help you get "unstuck"?

Who would you trust to make the determination of your "stuck-ed-ness"?


Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: herfuturesbright] #335636
02/15/14 01:30 PM
02/15/14 01:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,222
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LivingWell Offline
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LivingWell  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,222
Originally Posted By: herfuturesbright
I sure hope my ONE angry post on this thread doesn't "trump" the nice graphic oral sex post above me. I'll be watching.

Trump in what way?

Btw...
Vulgarity
Click to reveal..
Quote:
Funny...my post is a problem, but a [edit] post is just fine.

I see that one post has been Notified and it's not one of yours. What problem do you see in your post and why do you supposed it's not being Notified?

Last edited by Chrysalis; 02/16/14 07:20 PM.
Re: ***How to post "tough talk" effectively & respectfully*** [Re: LivingWell] #335637
02/15/14 01:33 PM
02/15/14 01:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,072
SW Chicago 'burbs
Mark1952 Offline
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Mark1952  Offline
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Posts: 5,072
SW Chicago 'burbs
I'm locking this until the mods have time to sort things out but for those who feel the mods are letting things go out of control, I would remind youthat tyhe mods are volunteers who are not sitting around waiting to take action. They have real lives, just like you do. They also don't act alone except in very rare situations or when privacy might be an issue. So give them time to sort thing out and stop assuming they won't because<insert favorite conspiracy theory here>.


mark1952.ma@gmail.com

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