Hi folks,

I thought I'd kick off the discussion of the materials, information, and methods available at Marriage Builders.

I think that the MB resources are terrific. I consider them a little more 'guy centric' in that they help men form lists and action plans (while actually explaining marriage stuff in ways that guys typically can understand). But most women can also identify with the concepts, and the philosophies around the rules of protection, care, time, and honesty.

Harley's concepts are basically built around behavioral psychology theory. They're nicely summarized here: MB concepts. However, if you're going to take the time to get to familiar with the material, you should read the entire concepts section. The cool thing about this stuff is that he's posted it all free of charge---not everyone can afford the books, and certainly not everyone can afford the coaching. But this is easily accessible. Then to round out this free material, you have two sections that help to put the material in context: the articles and the Q&A columns. The Q&A sections expand, and there's enough info to read and digest for weeks! This is probably the least appreciated area of his website, and there's a lot of good practical advice in there for how *he* uses his program in the context of real situations.

MB Bookstore
The books are great. I haven't read the recent ones, but HNHN, Give and Take, and LBers were staples for me (some overlap), as well as SAA (which I got a preprint of when counseling with Steve---it hadn't been published yet). These resources aren't free (unless you visit that old-fashioned thing called a library), but they're worthwhile to have.

I will confess to not having viewed or listened to the radio show. I don't know if it's as helpful, or if it's more of an entertainment vehicle.

I'm definitely not a fan of the MB forums as they currently exist today. It's been a long time since they've been a safe place to post, and it can be hard to sort out the wheat from the chaff. I would recommend avoiding those boards.

I found the coaching center to be excellent back in the day (1998 for me). Steve H did a terrific job with me and I give him much credit for that. I was also entirely thankful that when I was going through this that there was NO FORUM in place. It would have been much more difficult back then to hear the differences in opinions and the 'misapplication' of the methodology when compared to the coaching and to deal with integrating that into a plan. That was one reason I spent a few years on that board, to try to help others who couldn't afford the coaching execute the plans to the 'spirit' that I was taught them (to the best of my abilities, obviously).

I'd be interested to find out what concepts others found helpful. My list includes pretty much all the basic concepts, and the principle of that love bank---you can have good or bad interactions with your spouse, and you're going to be in much better shape marriage-wise if the majority of them are good!

Thanks Jim. Great first post! I am copying and pasting this from the other thread. Hopefully more food for thought:

I would love to see a new thread w/ some testimonials from JD as well as the others here who have had success with the program. That includes people who have used MB to improve their overall marriage, NOT just those overcoming infidelity.

As a BH ... I'll let the ladies comment from their perspective ... I have found the MB Plan A to be way too passive to be very effective with WW's. In a lot of cases, a W is more inclined to go wayward if they have lost respect for their H, for whatever reason, and Plan A just reinforces that lack of respect by making that BH appear even weaker.

With 3+ years of MB hindsight, I have formed my own very cynical opinion about the underlying reason for the weakness of Plan A ... strong, decisive actions yield results, which greatly reduces the opportunity to sell books, home programs, coaching services, etc. Personally, I view MB currently as a program that is more profit, rather than results, driven.

I know others have a more positive view of MB, but in all fairness, a newby searching for a program that best suits their needs should be able to consider both sides of the MB coin before committing to any particular plan.

MyRev,

I'd like to explore the Plan A issue, but because MarriageBuilders has a ton more resources than just the Plan A of Surviving an Affair, I'd like to break it out into it's own thread.

go for it!!!

My review.

I used the MB programme when my spouse was having an affair. Depending on your POV, either the programme helped end the infidelity AND/OR when it ended a natural death, MB helped us recover and start a new, more loving and caring marriage by giving us a common language, and a set of easy to follow plans and rules that encourage mutual respect and care for each other.

Due to a mixture of financial and locational issues, we did not attend any of the weekend seminars, nor do any phone counselling or purchase the home study DVD set. We worked our early recovery on "Surviving an Affair", "His needs, Her needs", "buyers, renters and freeloaders" and supplemented it with certain articles from the MB website article section. These included: The Four Rules , The Policy of Joint Agreeement , The Giver and taker , and supplementary information obtained from the forum participants who made up my personal support team.

My DH still says 2 years later it was 'His Needs, Her Needs' that saved our marriage.

My personal experience is that the MB programme has a lot to offer couples attempting to recover from infidelity, and that by reading the Articles on MB and the MB books, a marriage can become better than ever. While we may have possibly moved ahead faster with MB counselling, we have been happy with our home made programme experience to date.

I do recommend Marriage Builders to people IRL, but always with the disclaimer to avoid the forums.

*disclaimer - my recovery resources were not exclusivity MB, but it was the predominant resource.

I read and posted there a few years ago. We had two kids about five minutes after we married it felt like and we ended up arguing like cat and dog all the time. I printed the stuff out for my husband and he agreed to try and use the program, though he wasn't keen. We didn't do it perfectly, but it improved our marriage no end. It was all free, as I did not buy any books. I was very impressed with the service and have recommended it to others. I have read elsewhere and the lack of plans and the adverts on other sites annoys me.

Yes, curious, the exact plans are very helpful. I'm the type of person who needs guidance in what to DO. Don't care about the psychology behind it, just give me a plan.

MB didn't save my marriage although I worked the program for 3 and a half years, but it certainly prepared me for future relationships.

My thoughts:

MB didn't save my first marriage but it was through no fault of the Harley's or the site. I studied the plans, read all the books and was an active participant on the forums for many years. And I'll tell you what - I use everything I learned there in my second marriage.

Willard F. Harley's book: His Needs, Her Needs is one of the best books on relationships I have ever read. This book alone could change your marriage drastically.

The Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) is also a marriage game-changer. If my husband and I need to make a decision, we make sure we both enthusiastically agree upon it... or we don't do it.

I had occasion to speak to Steve Harley and he was gracious, kind respectful and knowledgeable.

I would absolutely recommend the books and phone counseling to someone in marital crisis.

When I found MB just over 4 years ago I was a wreck for the most part. I was reading all over the place and found a lot of really good intellectual approaches to infidelity that left me feeling as out of control as I did when I began.

I'd already followed some of the advice I began seeing there and read a copy of Surviving An Affair I found at the local library. What struck me first was at the side of the page on the website they had an add for the weekend seminar. In that add played over and over again a bunch of stuff I had been hearing from her including "I love you but I'm not in love with you." As I read more I realized that what I was feeling and experiencing was not really so unique and others had walked where I was stumbling along at that very moment.

I read articles on the website, read hundreds, maybe even thousands of posts going back many years and concentrated on doing the things I saw people do who were still married and claimed to be recovered or recovering.

I read other books as well by various authors, but the MB stuff I tried seemed to work the best. I understand why know, though then it was pretty much cut and try.

My main focus was on myself because that was what seemed to be the general idea of all that I was learning. I focused on identifying my wife's emotional needs and devised a plan to meet them in sometimes subtle or unique ways. I also took control of my own life in regard to actions and reactions that I realized were causing her to withdraw from me and in short order she went from being convinced that divorce and leaving me, whether she ended up with her AP or not, into a state of constant confusion and turmoil over what she felt she should do.

I did all I could to make her time with me as enjoyable as possible, even spending more time than usual with our granddaughter who was pure joy for both of us. At the same time I did everything in my power to make any contact with OM as difficult as possible to continue, going places with her that I might not have always been willing to tag along and inviting her sisters to join us for cookouts, dinner, anything to keep us in each other's presence and keep her from being able to communicate with him.

As I read more of the books, including His Needs Her Needs, Love Busters and Fall In Love Stay In Love, I kept up the process of becoming better at meeting her needs and avoiding doing anything to set us back. I scheduled as much fun stuff as I could manage, took extra time away from work, cut out overtime, just about gave up fishing and before long she was asking me about my changes at which point I was able to explain some of the process involved in the program.

A year ago she helped me teach a class based on FILSIL at our church and we repeated the class again in January through March. In June we attended training to become facilitators for a class using HNHN and Love Busters as the text books and are about to begin that class one week from tonight.

As we started to get it together, I continued researching marriage, infidelity and emotional responses and found literally thousands of articles and research papers on line. I began a journey of trying to understand what the feeling of love is and found that much of the real scientific research actually fit the model of the Love Bank without any finagling or modification. That journey continues to this day.

Marriage Builders is built on a single foundation and that foundation is that whatever we do it affects our spouse which also fits quite nicely with the Biblical description of becoming one flesh. The rest is simply an effort to maximize those things that have a positive effect and minimize those that are negative.

Marriage Builders saved our marriage and has given us both a renewed passion for helping other marriages survive and thrive.

Mark

Good story Mark. Thanks for sharing. I promise not to try to trigger you for at least a day.

Larry

I found MB within hours of my D-Day but had no need to use it to end my H's A as he had already ended it.

I therefore have no experience of the plan A and B as currently described on MB.

However, I found the articles about infidelity so helpful and what I clung on to in those early days was the optimism all around the site that a M could be rebuilt after such a betrayal.

Building a better M seemed an impossible task at that time but reading all the articles and books gave me hope that we could do it as a couple and as importantly to me at the time, I could do it and keep my integrity. (Up until I actually experienced infidelity, I assumed that BS's who stayed in a M could only do so by compromising their values in some way or by selling themselves short).

I loved the basic concepts and they made sense to me. I could more easily see my part in neglecting our M and I could see that the plan could be quite easily implemented. Doing the questionnaires was enlightening for both of us and spending the 20 hours a week together soon began to pay dividends. We'd forgotten that we really quite liked each other and could have fun together. Funny how those things can be forgotten in a M....

We reconnected quite quickly but I was lucky in that my H had no emotional attachment to the OW. She was his medication, his painkiller; but it was me, his W that had the only means to cure him. It was O&H communication following D-Day that saved us both. It is the application of the MB basic concepts that is helping us build our M.

We do not rigidly follow MB. We have friends and socialise with them but we ensure they are friends of our M and friends of M in general. Neither of us has friends that the other dislikes or does not trust.

I also have friends of the opposite sex, friends of longstanding that I would be loathe to lose. In fact I was best "man" for my great male friend at his wedding last year. We have been friends since childhood but have never ever been attracted to each other in any way. He is also good friends with my H and has been since they met. I am good friends with his W now also.

I would recommend the books and in fact have bought the books for friends struggling in their M's, but I would not recommend the forums. The self importance and righteousness of some posters would bother most people I know as would the almost militant and crusading zeal seen in many posts.

I personally found the comments about the reorienation of gay men appalling.

Us english do not seem to take well to self righteousness, being that we are mostly a very self depracating people. We tend to have a deep suspicion of those who proclaim to somehow be morally superior, especially when they are completely intolerant of the opinions of others and use ridicule and bullying techniques to suppress thoughts that do not concur with their own.

There isn't a person in the world who isn't still learning or who doesn't have things to learnn.

MB, because of the forums, is in danger of being seen as becoming a fundamentalist movement and this will, IMVHO turn off more people than it turns on. That would be a real shame.

The Marriage Builders Program, in combination with the grace of God, is what saved my marriage.

I know without a doubt The MB Program was successful for my wife and me. We have incorporated the principles and the program into our lives and our marriage and have been in recovery from infidelity since 2007.

I've discovered that much like New Years resolutions, unless you actually commit and work a program that has a plan, success is fleeting.

The MB website is also a remarkable resource. I know of no other business that puts all of their materials on a website for free. Amazingly selfless of Dr. Willard Harley when you sit back and think about it from that angle.

Five years ago, I discovered my wife was unhappy with me and was seriously contemplating divorce. I made this discovery without her knowledge, and in so doing, I saw exactly, in her own words, why she was unhappy. Using that as a guide, I realized I had many habits and ways of dealing with her that caused her to dislike me, and I realized those habits had to go. I also realized that she had many unmet expectations, and unfulfilled desires about how our marriage should be. I knew I had to meet these needs.

I came up with a workable plan, and she responded very quickly, I think partly by recognizing my own seriousness. Although the marriage was out of crisis, I was very unsure of myself, unsure of my own instincts (since this had come entirely out of the blue), and unsure of what more I could do to strengthen the marriage.

Marriage Builders was the first "resource" I found. I spent time reading all of the free material on the website. I found the material to be incredibly useful to me - Dr. Harley's "basic concepts" gave me an understanding of why our marriage had deteriorated. The plans he wrote about confirmed for me that I was on the right track, and more importantly, explained *why* that was so.

After reading the free material, I later purchased and read "His Needs Her Needs" and "Love Busters", which I found to be valuable, extending my knowledge of the specifics about emotional needs and the actions that can destroy our spouse's love for us.

We had no infidelity in our situation, so I never had to use Plan A or Plan B. So I cannot comment on those from direct experience. I appreciate the theory behind both of them, however.

My wife and I used the coaching center in 2007 and were amazed how quickly Dr. Jennifer Harley Chalmers was able to walk us through all the Basic concepts. I had done an extreme amount of damage to our marriage in a short amount of time, yet Jennifer was able to navigate us through all the land mines safely.

This is another amazing resource that helped save our marriage.


Yes, each session is expensive, but the thing that impressed me the most was at the end of our 6th session she said coaching was complete unless we were having problems and wanted to schedule another appointment for follow up. She could easily have told us we needed more sessions and easily received additional income, and she knew it. I'm thankful she never did that. The coaching center has a great deal of my respect because of this. We spent far less in counseling with her than we would have with the counselors that just wanted us to keep coming back again and again.

I read, re-read, and re-read again, the info pages at MB for a couple months before I ventured onto the discussion forum. It was the first discussion forum that I had ever used. I read current threads and almost the entire archives. Almost every question I had and almost every problem I was having was covered there somewhere.

What I learned helped me to effectively break up the affair for good in a safe manner (safety was a big issue) and start a personal recovery process that I continue today.

I am divorced now. And I know why Plan A is not recommended for marriages with active addiction. Trying to use POJA was a huge mistake, too.

I first coached with Steve Harley in a single session in summer of 2002. When I called him back in 2008 (I think it was!), the rate was the same as it was in 2002. Although that was still 50% more than I paid for an IC I was seeing at the time, I still felt it was money well spent. I needed it then, even though my W never came on board with it.

So, while the website and coaching center didn't exactly "save my marriage", they contributed 2 my improving ability 2 save it myself (my W's desire 2 stay married also helped! )

-ol' 2long

I found myself at the MB website back in 1999, although I didn't formally register until 2001 (I think?). My marriage was on the rocks after only 4 years and I *KNEW* that neither one of us had been engaging in an affair.

In 2003 we separated, but for 2 years, I used every resource that was suggested on the MB website AND I learned how to implement the MB methods (perhaps not as well as I should have)...the marriage ended in divorce, but for a good reason--my ex-Husband was homosexual.

Now, I broke a cardinal rule of MB--I was engaged in an emotional affair with my present Husband while I was going through my separation with my ex. Although at the time, I couldn't have been honest with anyone at MB about this (lest I be ripped to shreds)I KNEW that an emotional affair with someone while I ended an unsalvageable marriage wasn't wrong for ME. When one removes religion and supposed "morals" from the equation, it becomes far easier to evaluate the situation.

I have been married to that "emotional affair" for 5 years and I can say with all honesty, I still feel like I'm on my honeymoon. I always go back to the things I learned in MB, just to balance the relationship. The MB methods are FABULOUS for everyday living and they work remarkably well on a new relationship.

My brother started dating a woman six months ago and I immediately identified the bad habits that people fall into (the "joking" that disguised issues, the play fighting, name calling, etc) and I thought it would be a great idea to buy them a copy of His Needs, Her Needs and Lovebusters. Things have definitely changed for the better since they've read the books.

So, while I'd never had formal counseling with the Harley's, I did use all the information contained on the site and coupled with the great books that were suggested there, I think I built the happiest marriage I know (this includes my parents, relatives and many friends and acquaintances!)

Unfortunately, the site has changed. 10 years ago, the forums were free (both monetarily and in speech). Sadly, this is now changing. Rather than making the forums a "members only" type of place, they'd rather moderate heavily. I guess to each his own--but it did drive me away.

JMHO.

My Review

Our Background:

My spouse and I were intensely in love in the beginning of our marriage but, more recently, we had both been generally unhappy for quite some time. We had a few fits & starts towards making things better but none of the fits and starts amounted to anything. There were also times where he would decide he would "try" which didn't coincide with the times I decided to "try" & vice versa.

Of course there were the common issues that all couples have like communicating, letting "life" get in the way of spending time together, etc. There was also some work related travel for extended periods...But the truth is - For me, what really did the damage was domestic violence. After a few times, I had enough & I explained to my H that the very next instance would result in me calling the police. And, that's what happened. I enforced that boundary. Me doing that & what ensued afterwards in terms of him actually experiencing being arrested, having to report it to his employer, etc. was enough to snap him out of the cycle. He participated in an anger management group on his own; however, he could not get past the fact that I enforced that boundary & he remained angry about it for a long time. Meanwhile I was going through my anger at him for doing it (DV) and myself for allowing it to continue for the time that I did...and so our relationship became poisoned by resentment.

When my H announced to me that he wanted to get a divorce I did what I could to get us into the Marriage Builders Program, and I am glad I did that. This program has made our marriage into a different and better marrriage than we had - even better than what we had in the beginning when we were intensely in love.

The Program:

We opted to do the online program which costs a little less than $1000. (Much less expensive than a divorce ) IMO, the program focuses on habits. Our habits can mean the difference between a happy and fulfilling marriage and a miserable / doomed one.

Sounds simple & easy right? Change your habits & you'll change your marriage. In fact lots of "self help" and weight loss programs work on that very simple principle. Don't get me wrong, it's a lot of work in the beginning. After all...we're all very attached to our habits & we can always think of a thousand reasons why we can't change them or why we shouldn't have to change them. But, whatever it is that we want - be it a different life, a different body, or a different marriage - we wont get it without changing our own habits.

The program involves viewing a weekend lecture - this is what a couple does as the first thing. Next come the weekly assignments which include reading from 2 books (Love Busters & His Needs/Her Needs), listening to audio lessons on CDs, and discussion of the lessons each week. We are also required to plan, execute, record, and report a minimum of 15 hours each week where we pay undivided attention to one another while engaging in mutually enjoyable activities. The activities can be anything from sex to a baseball game to just sitting and talking. We also have a Marriage Coach assigned to us. The coach keeps us on track, makes sure we're doing our lessons, and answers any questions we have. She sends us surveys each week where we answer questions about our work from the previous week. We also have direct access to the creator of the program, Dr. Harley, via the Marriagebuilders Weekend Follow Up Discussion Forum. In that forum, we can ask Dr. Harley direct questions and receive the answers we need. It's a great resource and it has really helped.

My H is very much into this program and so am I. (That's a key ingredient. If both spouses are not committed to trying, this will not work. Initially one spouse leads the way so to speak - but if the other spouse doesn't eventually join in -it cannot work.) This program has worked wonders for us and we're less than 1/4 of the way through it.

If anyone has any questions about the program or anything I've shared here, please feel free to ask.

Jim,

It's interesting that you'd put it that way. I never viewed the material as "guy centric". I see it as well-organized and easy to read. Thinking about this logically...If the material were truly "guy-centric" (or "gal-centric") I don't see how Marriage Builders could be as successful as it has been for so many people. The females certainly wouldn't respond to "guy-centric" material and the males wouldn't respond to "gal-centric" material.

I appreciate the fact that while Dr. Harley explains things from the different points of view that men and women typically have, he openly says it's "typical" and states that some men may feel differently than the "typical" male POV & some women may feel differently than the "typical" female POV. My H and I definitley defy the "typical" when it comes to certain things.




I'm in agreement with this statement about the public portion of the Marriage Builders Discussion Forum. If you are struggling with your marriage, it's very easy to get caught up in the negative journaling that is being done there (and at any marriage site actually) along with negative input from the folks who are really very intense (and even nuts!) whenever someone questions a Marriage Builders tenet or principle.

If you enroll in the program, the private area where you can speak with Dr. Harley personally is a great resource.

Hi Chris,

I posted to you on the Welcome thread and am glad to see you've posted here, too.

Did you post on the MB public forums and if so, what was/is your screen name?

Again, welcome!

Ace

Hi Ace,

Thanks for the warm welcome.

Yes - I did post there. My name was the same.

Chris:

Do me a favor. Please go read the thread Peer Counseling and tell me what you think after you have read the last post. In particular, please read Al Turtle's comments and stories.

You have a viewpoint that, it seems to me, would be valuable.

Larry

I do think that Marriage Builders is fundamentally sound. I particularly like His Needs Her Needs. I also often pointed men to Harley's article Why Women Leave Men. . . I'm sure there are other reasons why women leave, but Harley says it is neglect that drives them away: not addiction, or abuse, or conflict.

I now make sure I don't neglect my wife, for a long time I dealt with conflict by withdrawing myself (both physically and mentally and certainly emotionally). That little bit of poor coping skills really drove a wedge between my wife and I. She wouldn't bring up issues because she didn't want to be punished by silence. We now just state what is on our minds and have at it before it can become something much bigger than it should.

I don't know if Marriage Builders methods really help stop infidelity once it starts, perhaps it does for certain people. I stopped my affair when it became too painful to remain in it. But I'm fairly certain that it can help before someone goes down that rabbit hole.

Neglect was what drove my wife to want a divorce 5 years ago. Neglect is pretty deadly... indifference can kill the marriage quicker than anything else.