Hi folks,

I thought I'd kick off the discussion of the materials, information, and methods available at Marriage Builders.

I think that the MB resources are terrific. I consider them a little more 'guy centric' in that they help men form lists and action plans (while actually explaining marriage stuff in ways that guys typically can understand). But most women can also identify with the concepts, and the philosophies around the rules of protection, care, time, and honesty.

Harley's concepts are basically built around behavioral psychology theory. They're nicely summarized here: MB concepts. However, if you're going to take the time to get to familiar with the material, you should read the entire concepts section. The cool thing about this stuff is that he's posted it all free of charge---not everyone can afford the books, and certainly not everyone can afford the coaching. But this is easily accessible. Then to round out this free material, you have two sections that help to put the material in context: the articles and the Q&A columns. The Q&A sections expand, and there's enough info to read and digest for weeks! This is probably the least appreciated area of his website, and there's a lot of good practical advice in there for how *he* uses his program in the context of real situations.

MB Bookstore
The books are great. I haven't read the recent ones, but HNHN, Give and Take, and LBers were staples for me (some overlap), as well as SAA (which I got a preprint of when counseling with Steve---it hadn't been published yet). These resources aren't free (unless you visit that old-fashioned thing called a library), but they're worthwhile to have.

I will confess to not having viewed or listened to the radio show. I don't know if it's as helpful, or if it's more of an entertainment vehicle.

I'm definitely not a fan of the MB forums as they currently exist today. It's been a long time since they've been a safe place to post, and it can be hard to sort out the wheat from the chaff. I would recommend avoiding those boards.

I found the coaching center to be excellent back in the day (1998 for me). Steve H did a terrific job with me and I give him much credit for that. I was also entirely thankful that when I was going through this that there was NO FORUM in place. It would have been much more difficult back then to hear the differences in opinions and the 'misapplication' of the methodology when compared to the coaching and to deal with integrating that into a plan. That was one reason I spent a few years on that board, to try to help others who couldn't afford the coaching execute the plans to the 'spirit' that I was taught them (to the best of my abilities, obviously).

I'd be interested to find out what concepts others found helpful. My list includes pretty much all the basic concepts, and the principle of that love bank---you can have good or bad interactions with your spouse, and you're going to be in much better shape marriage-wise if the majority of them are good!

Thanks Jim. Great first post! I am copying and pasting this from the other thread. Hopefully more food for thought:

I would love to see a new thread w/ some testimonials from JD as well as the others here who have had success with the program. That includes people who have used MB to improve their overall marriage, NOT just those overcoming infidelity.

As a BH ... I'll let the ladies comment from their perspective ... I have found the MB Plan A to be way too passive to be very effective with WW's. In a lot of cases, a W is more inclined to go wayward if they have lost respect for their H, for whatever reason, and Plan A just reinforces that lack of respect by making that BH appear even weaker.

With 3+ years of MB hindsight, I have formed my own very cynical opinion about the underlying reason for the weakness of Plan A ... strong, decisive actions yield results, which greatly reduces the opportunity to sell books, home programs, coaching services, etc. Personally, I view MB currently as a program that is more profit, rather than results, driven.

I know others have a more positive view of MB, but in all fairness, a newby searching for a program that best suits their needs should be able to consider both sides of the MB coin before committing to any particular plan.

MyRev,

I'd like to explore the Plan A issue, but because MarriageBuilders has a ton more resources than just the Plan A of Surviving an Affair, I'd like to break it out into it's own thread.

go for it!!!

My review.

I used the MB programme when my spouse was having an affair. Depending on your POV, either the programme helped end the infidelity AND/OR when it ended a natural death, MB helped us recover and start a new, more loving and caring marriage by giving us a common language, and a set of easy to follow plans and rules that encourage mutual respect and care for each other.

Due to a mixture of financial and locational issues, we did not attend any of the weekend seminars, nor do any phone counselling or purchase the home study DVD set. We worked our early recovery on "Surviving an Affair", "His needs, Her needs", "buyers, renters and freeloaders" and supplemented it with certain articles from the MB website article section. These included: The Four Rules , The Policy of Joint Agreeement , The Giver and taker , and supplementary information obtained from the forum participants who made up my personal support team.

My DH still says 2 years later it was 'His Needs, Her Needs' that saved our marriage.

My personal experience is that the MB programme has a lot to offer couples attempting to recover from infidelity, and that by reading the Articles on MB and the MB books, a marriage can become better than ever. While we may have possibly moved ahead faster with MB counselling, we have been happy with our home made programme experience to date.

I do recommend Marriage Builders to people IRL, but always with the disclaimer to avoid the forums.

*disclaimer - my recovery resources were not exclusivity MB, but it was the predominant resource.

I read and posted there a few years ago. We had two kids about five minutes after we married it felt like and we ended up arguing like cat and dog all the time. I printed the stuff out for my husband and he agreed to try and use the program, though he wasn't keen. We didn't do it perfectly, but it improved our marriage no end. It was all free, as I did not buy any books. I was very impressed with the service and have recommended it to others. I have read elsewhere and the lack of plans and the adverts on other sites annoys me.

Yes, curious, the exact plans are very helpful. I'm the type of person who needs guidance in what to DO. Don't care about the psychology behind it, just give me a plan.

MB didn't save my marriage although I worked the program for 3 and a half years, but it certainly prepared me for future relationships.

My thoughts:

MB didn't save my first marriage but it was through no fault of the Harley's or the site. I studied the plans, read all the books and was an active participant on the forums for many years. And I'll tell you what - I use everything I learned there in my second marriage.

Willard F. Harley's book: His Needs, Her Needs is one of the best books on relationships I have ever read. This book alone could change your marriage drastically.

The Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) is also a marriage game-changer. If my husband and I need to make a decision, we make sure we both enthusiastically agree upon it... or we don't do it.

I had occasion to speak to Steve Harley and he was gracious, kind respectful and knowledgeable.

I would absolutely recommend the books and phone counseling to someone in marital crisis.

When I found MB just over 4 years ago I was a wreck for the most part. I was reading all over the place and found a lot of really good intellectual approaches to infidelity that left me feeling as out of control as I did when I began.

I'd already followed some of the advice I began seeing there and read a copy of Surviving An Affair I found at the local library. What struck me first was at the side of the page on the website they had an add for the weekend seminar. In that add played over and over again a bunch of stuff I had been hearing from her including "I love you but I'm not in love with you." As I read more I realized that what I was feeling and experiencing was not really so unique and others had walked where I was stumbling along at that very moment.

I read articles on the website, read hundreds, maybe even thousands of posts going back many years and concentrated on doing the things I saw people do who were still married and claimed to be recovered or recovering.

I read other books as well by various authors, but the MB stuff I tried seemed to work the best. I understand why know, though then it was pretty much cut and try.

My main focus was on myself because that was what seemed to be the general idea of all that I was learning. I focused on identifying my wife's emotional needs and devised a plan to meet them in sometimes subtle or unique ways. I also took control of my own life in regard to actions and reactions that I realized were causing her to withdraw from me and in short order she went from being convinced that divorce and leaving me, whether she ended up with her AP or not, into a state of constant confusion and turmoil over what she felt she should do.

I did all I could to make her time with me as enjoyable as possible, even spending more time than usual with our granddaughter who was pure joy for both of us. At the same time I did everything in my power to make any contact with OM as difficult as possible to continue, going places with her that I might not have always been willing to tag along and inviting her sisters to join us for cookouts, dinner, anything to keep us in each other's presence and keep her from being able to communicate with him.

As I read more of the books, including His Needs Her Needs, Love Busters and Fall In Love Stay In Love, I kept up the process of becoming better at meeting her needs and avoiding doing anything to set us back. I scheduled as much fun stuff as I could manage, took extra time away from work, cut out overtime, just about gave up fishing and before long she was asking me about my changes at which point I was able to explain some of the process involved in the program.

A year ago she helped me teach a class based on FILSIL at our church and we repeated the class again in January through March. In June we attended training to become facilitators for a class using HNHN and Love Busters as the text books and are about to begin that class one week from tonight.

As we started to get it together, I continued researching marriage, infidelity and emotional responses and found literally thousands of articles and research papers on line. I began a journey of trying to understand what the feeling of love is and found that much of the real scientific research actually fit the model of the Love Bank without any finagling or modification. That journey continues to this day.

Marriage Builders is built on a single foundation and that foundation is that whatever we do it affects our spouse which also fits quite nicely with the Biblical description of becoming one flesh. The rest is simply an effort to maximize those things that have a positive effect and minimize those that are negative.

Marriage Builders saved our marriage and has given us both a renewed passion for helping other marriages survive and thrive.

Mark

Good story Mark. Thanks for sharing. I promise not to try to trigger you for at least a day.

Larry

I found MB within hours of my D-Day but had no need to use it to end my H's A as he had already ended it.

I therefore have no experience of the plan A and B as currently described on MB.

However, I found the articles about infidelity so helpful and what I clung on to in those early days was the optimism all around the site that a M could be rebuilt after such a betrayal.

Building a better M seemed an impossible task at that time but reading all the articles and books gave me hope that we could do it as a couple and as importantly to me at the time, I could do it and keep my integrity. (Up until I actually experienced infidelity, I assumed that BS's who stayed in a M could only do so by compromising their values in some way or by selling themselves short).

I loved the basic concepts and they made sense to me. I could more easily see my part in neglecting our M and I could see that the plan could be quite easily implemented. Doing the questionnaires was enlightening for both of us and spending the 20 hours a week together soon began to pay dividends. We'd forgotten that we really quite liked each other and could have fun together. Funny how those things can be forgotten in a M....

We reconnected quite quickly but I was lucky in that my H had no emotional attachment to the OW. She was his medication, his painkiller; but it was me, his W that had the only means to cure him. It was O&H communication following D-Day that saved us both. It is the application of the MB basic concepts that is helping us build our M.

We do not rigidly follow MB. We have friends and socialise with them but we ensure they are friends of our M and friends of M in general. Neither of us has friends that the other dislikes or does not trust.

I also have friends of the opposite sex, friends of longstanding that I would be loathe to lose. In fact I was best "man" for my great male friend at his wedding last year. We have been friends since childhood but have never ever been attracted to each other in any way. He is also good friends with my H and has been since they met. I am good friends with his W now also.

I would recommend the books and in fact have bought the books for friends struggling in their M's, but I would not recommend the forums. The self importance and righteousness of some posters would bother most people I know as would the almost militant and crusading zeal seen in many posts.

I personally found the comments about the reorienation of gay men appalling.

Us english do not seem to take well to self righteousness, being that we are mostly a very self depracating people. We tend to have a deep suspicion of those who proclaim to somehow be morally superior, especially when they are completely intolerant of the opinions of others and use ridicule and bullying techniques to suppress thoughts that do not concur with their own.

There isn't a person in the world who isn't still learning or who doesn't have things to learnn.

MB, because of the forums, is in danger of being seen as becoming a fundamentalist movement and this will, IMVHO turn off more people than it turns on. That would be a real shame.

The Marriage Builders Program, in combination with the grace of God, is what saved my marriage.

I know without a doubt The MB Program was successful for my wife and me. We have incorporated the principles and the program into our lives and our marriage and have been in recovery from infidelity since 2007.

I've discovered that much like New Years resolutions, unless you actually commit and work a program that has a plan, success is fleeting.

The MB website is also a remarkable resource. I know of no other business that puts all of their materials on a website for free. Amazingly selfless of Dr. Willard Harley when you sit back and think about it from that angle.

Five years ago, I discovered my wife was unhappy with me and was seriously contemplating divorce. I made this discovery without her knowledge, and in so doing, I saw exactly, in her own words, why she was unhappy. Using that as a guide, I realized I had many habits and ways of dealing with her that caused her to dislike me, and I realized those habits had to go. I also realized that she had many unmet expectations, and unfulfilled desires about how our marriage should be. I knew I had to meet these needs.

I came up with a workable plan, and she responded very quickly, I think partly by recognizing my own seriousness. Although the marriage was out of crisis, I was very unsure of myself, unsure of my own instincts (since this had come entirely out of the blue), and unsure of what more I could do to strengthen the marriage.

Marriage Builders was the first "resource" I found. I spent time reading all of the free material on the website. I found the material to be incredibly useful to me - Dr. Harley's "basic concepts" gave me an understanding of why our marriage had deteriorated. The plans he wrote about confirmed for me that I was on the right track, and more importantly, explained *why* that was so.

After reading the free material, I later purchased and read "His Needs Her Needs" and "Love Busters", which I found to be valuable, extending my knowledge of the specifics about emotional needs and the actions that can destroy our spouse's love for us.

We had no infidelity in our situation, so I never had to use Plan A or Plan B. So I cannot comment on those from direct experience. I appreciate the theory behind both of them, however.

My wife and I used the coaching center in 2007 and were amazed how quickly Dr. Jennifer Harley Chalmers was able to walk us through all the Basic concepts. I had done an extreme amount of damage to our marriage in a short amount of time, yet Jennifer was able to navigate us through all the land mines safely.

This is another amazing resource that helped save our marriage.


Yes, each session is expensive, but the thing that impressed me the most was at the end of our 6th session she said coaching was complete unless we were having problems and wanted to schedule another appointment for follow up. She could easily have told us we needed more sessions and easily received additional income, and she knew it. I'm thankful she never did that. The coaching center has a great deal of my respect because of this. We spent far less in counseling with her than we would have with the counselors that just wanted us to keep coming back again and again.

I read, re-read, and re-read again, the info pages at MB for a couple months before I ventured onto the discussion forum. It was the first discussion forum that I had ever used. I read current threads and almost the entire archives. Almost every question I had and almost every problem I was having was covered there somewhere.

What I learned helped me to effectively break up the affair for good in a safe manner (safety was a big issue) and start a personal recovery process that I continue today.

I am divorced now. And I know why Plan A is not recommended for marriages with active addiction. Trying to use POJA was a huge mistake, too.

I first coached with Steve Harley in a single session in summer of 2002. When I called him back in 2008 (I think it was!), the rate was the same as it was in 2002. Although that was still 50% more than I paid for an IC I was seeing at the time, I still felt it was money well spent. I needed it then, even though my W never came on board with it.

So, while the website and coaching center didn't exactly "save my marriage", they contributed 2 my improving ability 2 save it myself (my W's desire 2 stay married also helped! )

-ol' 2long

I found myself at the MB website back in 1999, although I didn't formally register until 2001 (I think?). My marriage was on the rocks after only 4 years and I *KNEW* that neither one of us had been engaging in an affair.

In 2003 we separated, but for 2 years, I used every resource that was suggested on the MB website AND I learned how to implement the MB methods (perhaps not as well as I should have)...the marriage ended in divorce, but for a good reason--my ex-Husband was homosexual.

Now, I broke a cardinal rule of MB--I was engaged in an emotional affair with my present Husband while I was going through my separation with my ex. Although at the time, I couldn't have been honest with anyone at MB about this (lest I be ripped to shreds)I KNEW that an emotional affair with someone while I ended an unsalvageable marriage wasn't wrong for ME. When one removes religion and supposed "morals" from the equation, it becomes far easier to evaluate the situation.

I have been married to that "emotional affair" for 5 years and I can say with all honesty, I still feel like I'm on my honeymoon. I always go back to the things I learned in MB, just to balance the relationship. The MB methods are FABULOUS for everyday living and they work remarkably well on a new relationship.

My brother started dating a woman six months ago and I immediately identified the bad habits that people fall into (the "joking" that disguised issues, the play fighting, name calling, etc) and I thought it would be a great idea to buy them a copy of His Needs, Her Needs and Lovebusters. Things have definitely changed for the better since they've read the books.

So, while I'd never had formal counseling with the Harley's, I did use all the information contained on the site and coupled with the great books that were suggested there, I think I built the happiest marriage I know (this includes my parents, relatives and many friends and acquaintances!)

Unfortunately, the site has changed. 10 years ago, the forums were free (both monetarily and in speech). Sadly, this is now changing. Rather than making the forums a "members only" type of place, they'd rather moderate heavily. I guess to each his own--but it did drive me away.

JMHO.

My Review

Our Background:

My spouse and I were intensely in love in the beginning of our marriage but, more recently, we had both been generally unhappy for quite some time. We had a few fits & starts towards making things better but none of the fits and starts amounted to anything. There were also times where he would decide he would "try" which didn't coincide with the times I decided to "try" & vice versa.

Of course there were the common issues that all couples have like communicating, letting "life" get in the way of spending time together, etc. There was also some work related travel for extended periods...But the truth is - For me, what really did the damage was domestic violence. After a few times, I had enough & I explained to my H that the very next instance would result in me calling the police. And, that's what happened. I enforced that boundary. Me doing that & what ensued afterwards in terms of him actually experiencing being arrested, having to report it to his employer, etc. was enough to snap him out of the cycle. He participated in an anger management group on his own; however, he could not get past the fact that I enforced that boundary & he remained angry about it for a long time. Meanwhile I was going through my anger at him for doing it (DV) and myself for allowing it to continue for the time that I did...and so our relationship became poisoned by resentment.

When my H announced to me that he wanted to get a divorce I did what I could to get us into the Marriage Builders Program, and I am glad I did that. This program has made our marriage into a different and better marrriage than we had - even better than what we had in the beginning when we were intensely in love.

The Program:

We opted to do the online program which costs a little less than $1000. (Much less expensive than a divorce ) IMO, the program focuses on habits. Our habits can mean the difference between a happy and fulfilling marriage and a miserable / doomed one.

Sounds simple & easy right? Change your habits & you'll change your marriage. In fact lots of "self help" and weight loss programs work on that very simple principle. Don't get me wrong, it's a lot of work in the beginning. After all...we're all very attached to our habits & we can always think of a thousand reasons why we can't change them or why we shouldn't have to change them. But, whatever it is that we want - be it a different life, a different body, or a different marriage - we wont get it without changing our own habits.

The program involves viewing a weekend lecture - this is what a couple does as the first thing. Next come the weekly assignments which include reading from 2 books (Love Busters & His Needs/Her Needs), listening to audio lessons on CDs, and discussion of the lessons each week. We are also required to plan, execute, record, and report a minimum of 15 hours each week where we pay undivided attention to one another while engaging in mutually enjoyable activities. The activities can be anything from sex to a baseball game to just sitting and talking. We also have a Marriage Coach assigned to us. The coach keeps us on track, makes sure we're doing our lessons, and answers any questions we have. She sends us surveys each week where we answer questions about our work from the previous week. We also have direct access to the creator of the program, Dr. Harley, via the Marriagebuilders Weekend Follow Up Discussion Forum. In that forum, we can ask Dr. Harley direct questions and receive the answers we need. It's a great resource and it has really helped.

My H is very much into this program and so am I. (That's a key ingredient. If both spouses are not committed to trying, this will not work. Initially one spouse leads the way so to speak - but if the other spouse doesn't eventually join in -it cannot work.) This program has worked wonders for us and we're less than 1/4 of the way through it.

If anyone has any questions about the program or anything I've shared here, please feel free to ask.

Jim,

It's interesting that you'd put it that way. I never viewed the material as "guy centric". I see it as well-organized and easy to read. Thinking about this logically...If the material were truly "guy-centric" (or "gal-centric") I don't see how Marriage Builders could be as successful as it has been for so many people. The females certainly wouldn't respond to "guy-centric" material and the males wouldn't respond to "gal-centric" material.

I appreciate the fact that while Dr. Harley explains things from the different points of view that men and women typically have, he openly says it's "typical" and states that some men may feel differently than the "typical" male POV & some women may feel differently than the "typical" female POV. My H and I definitley defy the "typical" when it comes to certain things.




I'm in agreement with this statement about the public portion of the Marriage Builders Discussion Forum. If you are struggling with your marriage, it's very easy to get caught up in the negative journaling that is being done there (and at any marriage site actually) along with negative input from the folks who are really very intense (and even nuts!) whenever someone questions a Marriage Builders tenet or principle.

If you enroll in the program, the private area where you can speak with Dr. Harley personally is a great resource.

Hi Chris,

I posted to you on the Welcome thread and am glad to see you've posted here, too.

Did you post on the MB public forums and if so, what was/is your screen name?

Again, welcome!

Ace

Hi Ace,

Thanks for the warm welcome.

Yes - I did post there. My name was the same.

Chris:

Do me a favor. Please go read the thread Peer Counseling and tell me what you think after you have read the last post. In particular, please read Al Turtle's comments and stories.

You have a viewpoint that, it seems to me, would be valuable.

Larry

I do think that Marriage Builders is fundamentally sound. I particularly like His Needs Her Needs. I also often pointed men to Harley's article Why Women Leave Men. . . I'm sure there are other reasons why women leave, but Harley says it is neglect that drives them away: not addiction, or abuse, or conflict.

I now make sure I don't neglect my wife, for a long time I dealt with conflict by withdrawing myself (both physically and mentally and certainly emotionally). That little bit of poor coping skills really drove a wedge between my wife and I. She wouldn't bring up issues because she didn't want to be punished by silence. We now just state what is on our minds and have at it before it can become something much bigger than it should.

I don't know if Marriage Builders methods really help stop infidelity once it starts, perhaps it does for certain people. I stopped my affair when it became too painful to remain in it. But I'm fairly certain that it can help before someone goes down that rabbit hole.

Neglect was what drove my wife to want a divorce 5 years ago. Neglect is pretty deadly... indifference can kill the marriage quicker than anything else.

In addition to the resources JimK posted, there is also the radio show. This is streamed over the Internet daily. Old episodes are available at:

http://www.richwith.com/mb/radio/

For a time they were advertising the old episodes on the marriagebuilders.com domain. I'm not sure why that was removed.

I personally think these are a fantastic resource, though I'm sure plenty will disagree with me. If I had to go down the list of all the resources Marriage Builders offers: the books, the forum, the coaching center, the radio show, I would least want to give up the radio show. I've listened to probably 90 hours of it, which probably accounts for why some people think I sound like a Marriage Builders advertising fanboy.

Dr. Harley has commented (on the radio show -- that's where I get this stuff) that compared to other relationship books, his are designed to be appealing to men when their wives hand the book to them and ask them to look at it. I don't think that means it's guy-centric, but it is somewhat "formulaic" which may tend to appeal more to typical males and appeal less to typical females.

The word "typical" is in my vocabulary a lot more than it used to be now.

Which is what I meant...

Yeah, when I was participating over at MB, they really didn't have the streaming radio setup, so that's something I've never taken advantage of. Of course, my registration date over there predates the internet (and almost predates radio), so ...

I tried to catch the live stream for awhile when it was on KKMS, but found it worked better to just download entire months' worth and listen to them in the car.

Mine too and so is "Tend" and "Tendency."

Rough crowd taught me.

Larry

Markos:

Then help me understand something. I have listened to his radio show as well, not nearly as much as you. I get the impression that he is more - what is the world - flexible there than in his books and web site. Is that fair comment or not?

Larry

Hi Larry,

I'm not Markos but I am willing to share my related experiences.

BTW, I believe the word "flexible" is similar to the worLd "flexible" LOL. When we called into the radio show we were told 2 different things that would seem a world away from what is promoted exclusively on the MB forums.

If it's still possible to check the MB radio archives, ("Lacie from MT", January 31, 2007) you can hear the 20 minute conversation between Dr. & Mrs. Harley and me (with my DH listening to the radio beside me).

Dr. Harley suggested that we might consider NOT exposing 6 months after verifiable NC with OW if 1) the risk of reconnection might be too strong (by renewed contact due to exposure) and 2) OWH might become violent. I believe that Dr. Harley subsequently suggested in an article that if the exposure might lead to the WS being fired (and all financial support being cut off for a stay-at-home BS), then the exposure should be delayed until the BS has adequate resources to survive and provide for the children.

The second 'flexible' thing seemed to surprise even Mrs. Harley. He said that I should tell OW that we would give her a week to confess to her H and if she did not, then we would send the exposure packet. Dr. Harley also suggested that I send her a copy of our radio conversation and I sent a copy of HNHN and Dobson's Love Must Be Tough. I also sent a photocopy of portions of Carder's Torn Asunder.

After she received the packet and heard Dr. Harley's "warning" via tape, she emailed me that "her H already knew everything and that my packet would be a waste of time." Instead of waiting a week, I called OWH immediately and confirmed that he (and not an assistant) would receive/open the special-delivery packet marked "personal" with my photocopies of his wife's pictures, cards and mushy love letters to my husband.

I could tell by what he did NOT say that he knew nothing about his WW's affair with my H so I mailed the exposure packet by overnight express. That was the best thing for us because my H said he would "do anything to help me heal." But it might not be the best option for others.

IMVHO, that was a fair statement IME, and it's too bad that posters are not able to mention their experiences with "flexible POVs" on the MB forums.

Ace

I have seen him differ on the show from the published advice on the forum, but more often he is taking a harder line, not being more flexible. In particular, he's VERY hard on men! I've heard him advise men to Plan A much much longer than the standard advice even to the point of risking their health, because he didn't feel they had any other hope any other way. In these cases it seems to be about understanding your limited options and the tradeoffs involved.

I have seen people comment all the time that they received different personal advice from Dr. Harley or Steve (interestingly I've never heard this about Jennifer) without provoking difficulty. But the standard advice is: "here's the standard plan; if you don't follow it, you may not get good results; we always advise you to get in touch with Dr. Harley or the coaching center for advise tailored to your situation, and we don't consider anyone here qualified to tell you for certain that your situation is 'different' because we've seen so many disasters ensue from people who decided their situation was 'different'."

For the record, I've only heard shows from this year. The older ones are in a pay archive and I haven't scraped up the money to purchase those. And as long as new shows are coming out, I'm not sure I'd have time to listen to them, anyway.

Thanks Markos. And yea, I understand the caveats he uses. I thought Jennifer moved to the Philippines? There hasn't been much buzz about her the past year or so.

I wonder where the heck he got the idea to modify Plan A, one of the few parts of his plans that could remotely be called controversial, the other being, maybe, exposure. On the other hand, Plan A is smart. The only problem with it in my mind is that women typically don't want to be married to a doormat. I also think it is hard for a typical guy to understand, unlike most of what Dr. Harley has to say.

We have some refugees from MWD's DB site here. Perhaps they will be able to help us integrate an understanding of Plan A with the 180. We can also take a look at some of Pep's Carrot and Stick explanations or interpretations to see how that works in the great scheme of things. There is no enforcement of strict dogma here, so we can learn without fear of getting beat up.

Just for the record, and then I have something to discuss, I took the liberty of having a friend of mine who holds a Masters in Psychology and who is also NOT qualified (his statement) in Marriage Counseling (deals with kids), to go through Dr. Harley's stuff. According to him, there is nothing in Dr. Harley's material that violates generally accepted principles of Psychology as taught in the schools. I believe him. I could say more about his findings if you want.

Exposure seems to be the hot button topic and the one that seems to attract the most vehement comments on MB. I remember this one deal with a military wife, as an example. The point there was to expose unofficially instead of officially, a military nuance that takes a bit of thinking. No facebook bomb, no letters through command, no JAG, etc., just a quite heads up through Chaplains to the WH's immediate enlisted report. It was working too, last I heard.

It is my opinion that there are a number of folks here who would pay close attention to your knowledge of Dr. Harley's mindset on exposure, current and past, and would love to discuss it with you. We also have folks here who understand the 180. Maybe they would like to get in the discussion as well.

Just for whatever it is worth, have you had time to read through the thread on peer-to-peer counseling? It starts off a bit [Bleep!], my fault, but it settles down after a bit and there is some really good stuff in the thread, including a visiting Psychologist holding forth and doing some teaching.

Larry

HNHN really made an impression on me quite a few years ago. It made sense in a way that other things I had read just didn't. I am a practical kind of person when it comes to things like plans and study (even though I am very emotionally oriented). It was great to be able to identify and then do actual work to try to meet DH's EN's. I didn't really know about the forum then.

A few years later I found the forums looking for sites about infidelity and confessing the A (because sadly I had had one). I registered, got scared, made a complete ASS of myself....But I also read SAA. THAT book just broke me, and I did confess my A. I know my DH went to the site and got a lot of good info for him too. It really helped us a lot.

A few years later (summer'09) I went back and re-registered. Our M had oozed back into the pre-A rut and cycles. Though those first contacts were lost in the crash, I got so much valuable info again. And some good kicks in the pants. And some real care and concern.

Some of the problems we have haven't responded to the really detailed forum version of some of the principles. I don't think that means the principles are unsound. I just think that when you add diabetes/bipolar/ he says he loves me/ he has no physiological drive (for the SF issue in particular)...I can 2+2 all I want and there still isn't going to be a 4. And I don't believe as a Christian that I can leave him over that. So I got stuck. And since a combo type approach isn't really encouraged. I was one of those 1-in-10. Just lucky I guess.

I think the forums can be a valuable resource. And I have also read some of the additional books over the years as well as pretty much every article and the newsletters. But since what seems to be starting to work for us includes more than JUST the MB site (like some Kevin Lehman resources and themarriagebed), I realized that I wouldn't really be an asset, so though I read, I don't believe my posting is of value anymore.

I still have all of Harley's books, and I point people in that direction frequently, especially if there is an affair issue. I don't think anyone knows how to deal with infidelity like he does.

I take complete exception with this:



And I call B.S. on it too, Markos. The directive on the forums is to follow Dr Harley's advice as it is laid out on the forums. In other words, "we're here; Dr H and MB saved our marriage and if you don't do what we tell you to do, then you will fail."

A lot of people can't afford the coaching center fees, the online fees, the weekend fees. So the books, articles and forum become their lifeline. Reading an article or a book and then discussing it with someone is invaluable IF that other someone (or someones) can discuss rationally, answer questions, debate a different interpretation...all without willy-nilly editing that destroys the entire value of having such a discussion.

It renders the forum useless.

For an example, I will cite exposure. If you read the forum, you would think that massive, nuclear exposure is the ONLY way to do exposure. And that even years down the road, if you didn't expose properly then do it again, recovered marriage or not.

Yet other people have had great success with judicious and surgical exposure. But you can't mention that on the forum.

The forum could be a great resource for people if the inmates would quit running the asylum.

Ourhouse

I think you raise valid points. I will be interested in how Markos answers you. I do draw the line between the Harley program and the forum though. And even Steve, by report, does not always recommend nuclear exposure - quite often the opposite.

Larry

Larry, I've been sure to mention throughout the inception of this board (though of course, I neglected to do so here...LOL) that I differentiate between the MB program and the forum. What makes the program work, IMO is that Dr Harley has taken his own thinking and research, married it with the best thinking of his peers and has come up with a workable, executable PLAN (his point of difference) for improving and recovering a marriage).

The forums though? Not even close... And that's part of what make them such a disaster. The inmates running the asylum there are starting to think they are the OWNERS of the plan, not simply the messengers. And stuff gets skewed and distorted and bad information is passed along more often than not. I used the Exposure issue as a prime example.

In my experience on Mbers, those that advocate a strict adherence to the plans did nothing of the sort in their own marriages.
In addition, the plan tends to be horrible for BH. More often than not, the BH was better off giving the WW ONE chance to come home, apologize and go no contact.
Many BH's that have followed his plans have wound up in hell because they dealt with long-term affairs that were rubbed in their face.
The BEST results I have seen on that board are by the people that took a hard line approach with the WS's. Are there exceptions. Sure.
In addition, Harley, not being a medical doctor and having two coaches that work with him are ill-equipped to understand the serious medical complications that result from their advice. Depression is real and his flippant way of dealing with it is to have people ask their doctor for an SSRI. [BS]. The BEST way to deal with it is to remove the root cause of the depression and not to subject yourself to emotional torture.
Also of note is the FAILURE on the part of "Dr." Harley to warn people NOT to sleep with their WS's. He had on his site, foolishly advocating sex with a wayward spouse. Meet the emotional need of sex...WRONG! It is unsafe and against any sound medical advice. Do NOT sleep with a wayward spouse. YOU can get an STD and wind up dead.
Harley does have some good ideas, but his failure to provide accurate statistics, his unwillingness to reign in the jack-boot moderators and the above issues takes away a lot of his credibility.

RE: Depression in general



Yes.

I have a friend splitting w/ her husband of 28 years. I'm not advocating the split. But I am supporting her because I believe she has tried her best to fix it and for whatever reasons, they mutually agreed to split up (no affair as far as I know)

She's been on ADs for about 5 years. She thought it was menopause related, or stress related.

She's off them now. And is feeling great.

Ourhouse:

I agree with your assessment of the MB forums.

Steve Harley certainly didn't recommend I do much of any of the things that the forum cool-aid dispensers would insist must be done.

I'm going 2 save the rest of my observations for such time as our new members from MB gain access 2 Thunderdome, assuming they want 2. This thread is about the MB program, which I don't have the problem with that I have with the forum.

I will paraphrase and underscore this statement of yours here, though:

The MB forums are useless. End of discussion!

-ol' 2long

Since this is about MB, aka Marriage Builders, let me stick my horn in as best I can. Marriage Builders is a program and a plan that was initially brought to the market via the book, His Needs, Her Needs, then later on, Surviving an Affair.

Overall, the Marriage Builder program was conceived by Dr. Harley years ago. He has repackaged it from time-to-time and done a great job of marketing through his forum, online concepts and radio, to the end of selling books and attendance at seminars or online programs and supporting his coaching center.

And there is nothing wrong with making a living through the promotion of mental health and good relationships. Just for the record, Dr. Harley's work has nothing in it that violates the generally accepted principles of psychology as taught in the schools.

For those looking for a step-by-step plan, he has a good one, if a bit dated. At least it is a good start toward a healthier marriage.

Because most, if not all of Dr. Harley's plan(s) is dated, he has a couple of concepts that could use a do over; Plan A and Exposure, at least as they are promoted by his forum, among other concepts. Psychology is a dynamic profession and, simply put from a layman's view, Dr. Harley hasn't continued to validate his plans and program to keep it fresh and up to date.

Dr. Harley's program is a program. And therein lies it greatest strength and weakness. Because it is a program, there is a path to follow. This is of particular interest to some males and a few females, who often are simply looking for a step-by-step path to follow and who could give a hoot about the underlying concepts. Thus those who do follow the steps become "Programmed." And it works. At least for those who adhere.

There are no byways for those for whom the program doesn't fit quite right. And that is it's downfall. Dr. Harley's program doesn't get you to think, it gets you to follow. And for those who follow, it works.

The forum is another story and one I am not prepared to address at this point.

Larry

Larry,

For the most part I agree with what you said. I do think Harley has made some changes over the years though and that some of those changes never really make it into the mainstream of the forum for quite some time.

HNHN came first and then SAA if memory serves me. It was in LBs that the entire "plan" began to take shape. The seminar materials including the 5 steps workbook tackled LBs first and then worked on ENs in order to "stop the bleeding" first so that a couple could start actually considering staying together.

The first time the whole thing was put together in one book was FILSIL which was why I picked it for a class to introduce the concepts to the masses. Up to this point, things were shifting, getting tweaked, additions and deletions were routine in various editions etc.

But FILSIL was also a departure from the whole fighting an affair thing as well. Preventing or defeating an affair had been the whole reason per the books so far and in FILSIL there appears a plan for healthy marriage that can be introduced even before a marriage takes place that can help a couple avoid the pitfalls so many of us fell into along the way.

But all of those books through FILSIL were consumer, DIY types of books. The model is laid out in very simple terms and is presented as steps to take to arrive at a predetermined goal, calling that goal a happy marriage. But the most recent book from Harley that was released early this years is a change, not in plan or program but in the way it is explained and presented. The book is not written as a DIY guide for folks that are hurting or facing a serious problem in their marriage. It is instead written as a way to present the Love Bank model to those seeking to help couples such as counselors.

So the way the whole thing is presented has more to do with the why than previous books than it has to do with the what to do from the couple's perspective. In the early pages Harley lays out the reason for the whole process that he follows and then shows how he applies the whole thing in his own practice.

What struck me as I read that book was the depth to which his most basic notion should permeate a relationship, if we truly understand it. It should in fact modify our interaction even with other people with whom we do not have a romantic relationship, IMO. That basic concept, the one thing upon which the "plan" and "program" have developed is that whatever we do, it affects others. As applied to marriage, it can be said that whatever we do affects our spouse in some way. Since this can be a positive or negative reaction that is caused by what we do, the rest of his material is an effort to identify the things that fall into each camp and give us a clear way to modify our actions to ensure we are doing things that enhance the relationship and avoid doing those things that are detrimental to it.

To me this is no shallow or simple idea. It also gives a sort of metric a place to begin that can determine if what we are doing is in line with that whole notion. The rest of the terminology and "steps" are really nothing more than his way to attempt to quantify things in a way that average Joe can apply them. I even think there lies within Harley's material the ability to identify ENs that are not on his list, choose any EN as being in a person's top 5 no matter the original gender bias associated with those ENs in the original books and even get to the bottom of such things as why chewing ice can drive our spouse nuts.

Harley's program is a lot more flexible that it gets represented on the forums and I think that it becomes so rigid because of the desire to keep it "pure" and true to its roots. I would venture that the typical person who reads the books HNHN, SAA, LBs and FILSIL has very little understanding of why these things are laid out like they are. In reference to something I posted elsewhere, the Process has replaced the Mission and the Vision has become diluted by years of repetition. I think it's actually one of the dangers of becoming successful in an area that caters to the masses. The masses learn, memorize, flesh out and defend the *what* without ever understanding the *why*. When something "worked for me" it becomes the definition of what is meant and if enough people can be convinced they had a shared or common experience, the cool aid is being mixed by those willing to drink it.

The *why* is still there. It just never gets brought into the light because of the emphasis on *what*.

JMO.

Mark

Egad Mark, now I have to go off and think. Ugh, what a tiresome activity, full of mental activity and all that rot.

Points made. And fair analysis.

Now lemme think about it.

Larry

Hello there,
Is the new book that Dr. Harley released earlier this year FILSIL?
I'm currently trying to decide in which order his books should be read for the greatest understanding of his program. Thanks Mark.

LaFemme,

The book I am referring to is Effective Marriage Counseling and was released early this year. It is a book that lays out Dr Harley's counseling methods as well as the Love Bank model and even some of the QA procedures he uses in house.

Fall In Love Stay In Love is the entire program in single book form with much less emphasis on troubled or broken marriages and few references to infidelity. It includes sections on Love Busters as well as Emotional Needs, his various policies including Undivided Attention, Joint Agreement and Radical Honesty. It is a good introduction to his materials and is primarily informational in nature.

HNHN goes into more depth regarding Emotional Needs and LBs does the same for Love Busters. The part that seems to be most life changing for many couples is really the application of the materials which is spelled out by the 5 Steps To Romantic Love workbook. There are worksheets that can be completed to clarify the ENs and LBs as identified by the LBQ and ENQ and the book includes logs for examples of LBs and such.

Some couples can implement the stuff on their own but I have found that most require a bit of help at least in getting the whole thing to work. There are various ways of doing this, IMO and the class my wife and I lead is one example (Dynamic Marriage from Family Dynamics Institute, founded by Joe Beam). We are also trying to develop our own class based on FILSIL though it is much easier to do what matters for couples that are not already in crisis or that have experienced perhaps years of neglect.

About 25% of couples are already in pretty good relationships. They are proactive and already working to keep the marriage healthy. FILSIL is great for these couples. Another 50% of couples are not having troubles but are not really working on the marriage so much as living life day to day and reacting to what comes along. In the upper half of this group, FILSIL can be an eye-opener, and might push them to take their marriage to the next level. For the lower half of this group, a little more directed application might be needed and a class or other accountability method can help them avoid the problems that they might encounter simply because they are unaware that they might come along.

The remaining 25% of couples are already in trouble and one or both might be in a State of Withdrawal or might already be engaged in an affair or have checked out of the marriage relationship. FILSIL alone will not do much for these couples and a more directed approach is what is required to bring them back form the brink. This is the group that Harley's MB Weekend was designed to address as well as FDI's A New Beginning program which is lead by Masters level or higher counselors and researchers.

One issue that comes up a lot is that much of what is called marriage counseling is pretty ineffective for a good number of couples. Some of this is technique and some is application IMO. A lot of individual therapy models have been applied to marriages over the years and these very often lead to problems becoming worse within the marriage rather than helping couples. EMC lays out Harley's procedures for counseling as well as his model so a counselor that wishes to explore another way of doing things has enough to at least get started on seeing a different way of doing things.

For example, Harley is not a big fan of letting couples sit together venting about the past or even recent events. He instead works with each person and helps each one find solutions to the things they are doing wrong instead of letting them beat each other senseless in his office. This makes the counselor the source of discomfort and allows the couple to build bonds between them rather than letting each one become the source of discomfort for the other. Subtle differences like this in application can make a huge difference.

Mark

Mark
I appreciate the thoughtful and detailed reply. I've been married for 23 years and am always looking for ways to improve my marriage.
Off to order some books..........
Thanks so much.

I will say that in my opinion FILSIL was the best of the "general marriage" books that Dr. H has written. Because it does kind of have everything.

And the first book I recommend to anyone who talks to me about infidelity (whether it be a BS or WS) is SAA. I can still remember the words in that book smashing chinks in my wayward armor one summer day at the pool. That book was a big part of what saved us.

I can speak about Jenn. I counseled with her in the Spring of 2002. At the time, my husband was living with a female "friend". She never said a single word about exposure to me. Not one.

Never thought about it before, but when I counseled with Steve (Fall of '06) he never said a word about it either. Huh.

At the time, I told the people I needed to tell for support, including our grown kids. Never exposed at his job (even though OW worked there), or to his sister (his only living relative). Deemed it more harmful than useful.

We recovered anyway.

Moved post 2 Thunderation, as requested!

-ol' 2long

sere already copied her post over to TD...I think she's right that the exposure thread is a better fit than the MB program area. Could y'all move this over there/delete here?

I worry that you're right 2long and for that reason no-one should be telling vulnerable BS's that they have to do nuclear exposure to be able to recover.

Each situation is different and should potentially be handled differently.

I had a little gasp at the printed flyers exposure. It made me think of the exposure of celebrities in the tabloids. Now that is NUCLEAR!

Sorry all if what I posted upset or offended anyone.

Its best in TD.

It's not offensive at all!! The only reason for a move is just continuity.

The MarriageBuilders website helped us begin to recover. Part of that was the suggestion that I consider exposure to OWH 6 months after verifiable NC. I will comment about that over in the TD, but will be back to share how the MarriageBuilders web site helped us.

Thanks for this thread....and for how well continuity is encouraged.

Ace

So..Does anyone else have a success story to share?

From my experience ... "TRUE" MB success stories, are much like UFO's ... many claim to have seen one, but few, if any, can provide any actual evidence of their existence.

We need to separate the program from the website.

The program contains some great relationship fundamentals. (by no means, does Harley have a lock on these tenets, BTW).

The forum is just plain dangerous. Being berated and 2x4'd every time one does not adhere to the MB program as interpreted by the posters (ex: exposure turning into nuclear exposure), it is confusing and potentially damaging to the marriage.

There is not agreement about the "great relationship fundamentals."

There are issues with the program that exist even without the added mess of the forum.

There isn't anything in the Harley program that violates the generally accepted principals of psychology as taught in the schools. Harley has managed to codify certain of those principals into an organized program that works to the benefit of many people who give it a try.

He has done a very clever job of "Packaging" especially in certain aspects that resonate with the way male minds "Tend" to resonate, as opposed to the usual run of the mill "Relationship" program that is meant to sell to women who are the ones who consume a very, very high percentage of relationship programs and books.

I have had contact lately with several LPCs who use Harley's books in their practice. And it should be noted that FDI uses his material in their Christian based ministry, the largest one I think, for marriages.

My opinion is that some of his concepts are a bit weak and could use both updating and more evaluation. His program does not fit everyone, but it does fit a very high percentage of those who give it a solid try. Whether by intent or by accident, much of Harley's program is designed to fit current research on how cognitive behavior is affected by the dopamine reward system in the brain.

In my opinion, it was an accident. I base that on several parts of his program that do not fit well within current research modeling. Be that as it may, Harley's program with all its strengths and weakness is probably, in my opinion, the best of the bunch, which says more than it needs to say about how poor many of the competition's methods sort themselves out.

I hear you Larry. Now to the real world(not academia)...Harley's plans cause a lot of damage to some people (mostly BH's).

There is nothing in a psychologists teaching that would go against keeping an affair secret. That doesn't make it right. At the end of the day, what needs to be looked at is how the plans work in real life. For WH's I would say they can be pretty good. For WW's I would rarely, if ever, suggest the MB plan.

In the real world, they (Harley's model) also solve some problems, or at least are the current best methods I know of, with glaring exceptions that you accurately point out. I think that Mark has done a terrific job of modeling Harley's methods into a group thing that works in a Church environment.

For BH, I am (on a case by case basis) pretty solid in your corner but for WW, I think the Harley plans have merit, the problem is that on MB, they never got a chance to make a difference - too many rabid dogs doing their pack mentality garbage. Think about that for a moment.

And for the exposure thing, there actually is some academic based value for it, as a tool to be used when needed according to what I have been told, but I never did see it discussed for myself in any psych course I took. I do think I know how the academic thing works, so I am not as biased against it as are you.

The problem in my mind is not usually with academia, it is with those who get a doctorate and then try to monetize it with semi-simplistic solutions.

I consider my marriage an MB success story. I followed the program and it made a huge difference in my relationship. It took us from the brink of divorce and gave us a common language and program to improve and recover our marriage after infidelity. At that time, the forum was a good support system, and it helped me tremendously. I was living overseas and had no other support system, so it was a Godsend.

Larry, I hope this comment isn't too stale for me to comment on. I had not heard anything about Jennifer moving, but that does explain why she is not heard about much and is not mentioned on the website. I know she is not completely inactive, though, at least one Marriage Builders poster said he and his wife were coached by her this year: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/u...rue#Post2390578



His sincere belief seems to be that many men simply have no hope otherwise.

I heard another, older, show last week in which he referred to a case where the WW had split and the kids were developing horrible problems. The BH and WW got back together and the kids got better, but the affair was still on. Dr. Harley was encouraging him, for the sake of the kids' welfare, to keep the home together and try to outlast the entire affair.

His comments on the radio seem to be that men have more of a chance of wooing and winning a wayward wife than the other way around. Plan A is more likely to work for a man than a woman.



Well, it's stated all over the forum that Plan A is not Plan Doormat. In forum terms (not sure if Dr. Harley uses these terms or not), Plan A has a "carrot" and a "stick." The common comment from a much vilified poster over there is that women don't respect a man who responds to disrespect and adultery by bringing them flowers and candy.

So I'd have to say from what I've read that if a man is being a doormat, he's not doing Plan A right.



Here's my problem, Larry: when I refer to the Marriage Builders plans, I'm referring to the Basic Concepts. You won't see Plan A and Plan B and exposure there. And there hasn't been any need for those in my situation.

Through reading and listening a lot I've definitely developed opinions on those tools. Prior to coming to Marriage Builders my position on adultery was informed mostly by personal experience of close friends and family, and James Dobson's Love Must Be Tough. And my position was "Show them the door, in most or all cases." It was only Marriage Builders that gave me the idea it was even possible to truly recover from infidelity, and showed me what a person would want in such a case. I've got a real strong opinion about "recovery" that doesn't result in "former" betrayeds and waywards ever making it far into the Basic Concepts, and that opinion is that it would insane to go to that much pain for that little reward. So I'm not shy about expressing my opinion about using the tools that are there to ensure that that kind of recovery happens or nothing. But I don't consider myself a true expert on any of them. All I can do is repeat what I've heard and what I've learned from watching other people.

I can encourage people to listen to that free radio show. It's worth gold.

I need to listen to that show. From what I understand, Dr. Harley listens to the caller, asks questions, and then gives advice based on the principles in his books. That is good. I also understand that he does NOT just repeat the same mantra over and over again assuming that if it doesn't help the person must just be defective.

Markos:

Absolutely it is not too late, never. If you have the time, your input is valuable, especially to this thread.



Yea, I know all about her Carrot and Stick. And I have a lot of respect for her ability to simplify concepts and suggestions. I have seen a lot of guys who just can't get their head wrapped around the whole concept. You have seen it too, I bet. It would probably be useful if Dr. Harley were to provide more detail using his language for this concept.

I have also seen those who read about half of the concept and half of the well known poster's concept, then sail forth acting as if they got it, when actually they don't Frankly, Plan A takes way more study than some folks are willing to give, in my opinion. Plan A, again in my opinion, is a difficult concept to learn and teach for a lot of people and needs more explanation.

I have something I have to get done today here, so I will leave it at that for now, but will pick it up later on. Hope you continue to read here and comment.

Larry

There wasn't any need in mine either. I was even the one who brought them up in sessions with SH, at a time when I thought maybe I was still not doing something "right" for my sitch.



What a person would want? Or what the Marriage Builders method calls for? I don't think these are necessarily the same thing.



So, is the "goal" the concepts, or a recovered marriage? And the reward is an end-product of a cookbook plan? It always seemed that way 2 me, particularly on the MB forums (though it was definitely NOT the case when I coached with SH).

I don't think one can avoid going through a lot of pain after infidelity. Necessary pain. It's what we learn from the experience that makes it worthwhile in the end.



I've noticed!, though I think that "that kind of recovery" is a pretty vague descriptor. As for "nothing", that's not an option. Not recovering, at least personally, isn't a choice.



How 'bout putting a little more thought in2 the process? (I'm referring, specifically, 2 your snide remarks 2 me *after* I was banned from MB in June).



Fair enough. I don't feel any need, though. I have the MB website resources and read a couple of their books. I've had several sessions with SH (and others). I've participated on other forums and read other peoples' books. Most importantly, though, I recovered my marriage with my W, even though she never bought in2 the MB concepts.

-ol' 2long

~2long



So to what do you attribute your recovery? Is your recovery different from your wife's? How are the two of you managing your marriage compared to what was the norm before the affair?

If you want to share, that is.

Not a "what". US. My W and I enabled our recovery.



My recovery path is different from that of my W's, most definitely. She never bought in2 MB, and only spoke with Penny a couple of times. Though she had ended her PA before d-day (9 years ago this month), she was still pretty foggy and desirous of being "friends" and/or "colleagues" for another 5 or so years, so she wasn't receptive 2 the idea of working with a pro-marriage coach. Interestingly, she made her greatest strides "back" 2 the marriage when I let go of the need 2 control the outcome of "our" recovery by trying 2 steer her anywhere she didn't want 2 go. I simply told her (for the umpteenth time, but when she finally heard me) "I don't want 2 be married 2 you if you intend 2 have anything 2 do with Rat Meat for the rest of your life. If you DO want 2 keep him as a "friend", by all means I hope you hit it off, because I won't stay married under those circumstances and I wouldn't want you changing your mind about him at some fu2re date." ...or words 2 that effect. And though she was still making anti-marriage statements at the time (~2.5 years ago), she replied "I want 2 be married 2 you and I want 2 spend the rest of my life with you".



We're not "managing" in any MB sense of the term. I don't require her 2 do anything, and she doesn't require me 2 do anything. I meet her needs and she meets mine because we WANT 2, not because some cookbook tells us that we have 2. And we call one another every day when one of us is out of town because we enjoy talking 2 one another, not because we're checking up on each other.

In this day and age, one can hide anything if they want 2. Particularly if they've already been found lying. They get experience at hiding better and they hide better if that's what they want 2 do. I've gotten a lot better at trusting my own instincts and relying on THEM, rather than trusting my W will follow a plan because someone told her 2. After all, she got better at hiding for the few years she wanted 2 do so, such that I had multiple d-days of continued contact for the first few years after d-day.

The blind trust that was the "norm" in our marriage before the affair is dead, and rightfully so.



There's more in my blog about my thoughts on "programs" like Marriage Builders, if you're interested in reading more.

-ol' 2long

Thanks ~2long, question asked, answer received.

Didn't expect my words to be held to that high of a standard of precision.

How about "What I might want in such a case, hypothetically." What I meant was it was the first time I'd ever seen a reason that, to me, made sense as to why a typical person might want to.



Dr. Harley makes no bones about what his goals for marriage are.

Not sure if you and I have the same definition of "recovered" marriage.



No, Marriage Builders is more of a set of instructions for building your own customized plan. The very first steps involve identifying your own unique characteristics and desires.



Certainly there is pain from infidelity no matter what.

I'm just referring to situations where someone might take someone back when, in my opinion, they should not.

You might refer to my "if you don't set the bar high" thread on MB to get an idea what I'm talking about.



I mean recovering the marriage, or not recovering the marriage.



I'll decline this invitation to violate the terms of the forum. You and I both know that's not going to be discussed here in this thread.



Fair enough. I really didn't expect to debate the issue, other than to say "Here's an awesome resource."

That's textbook ("cookbook"?) Marriage Builders.



That would be the goal of Marriage Builders. You are describing a Marriage Builders - style marriage, free of selfish demands. You may use different terms, but you are describing exactly the things Marriage Builders says makes a marriage great.

On the radio he is able to address individual situations in more detail, and when things aren't working he is able to explain what they are missing. But he is remarkably consistent.

I've always gotten more out of seeing these concepts applied to individual situations. Such as in the Q&A columns.

Much of the value of MB comes from the model, meaning the predictions you get from asking "If this is true, what will happen if I ... ?" Where MB appears to lose value to some people (including me, at one point) is when the predictions don't appear to hold true. They start to think their situation is different and MB doesn't apply. But in such a situation hearing Dr. H explain his conception of how the concepts apply is most valuable of all.

For example, the pebble parable on my thread at MB helped me understand the Love Bank model much better and why you don't see "instant results."

Once I had built up a very solid confidence in the predictions of the Love Bank model (through personal experience and lots of increasingly nuanced understanding), I started to see real progress and relief for our situation.

That's also when my thread ceased to be an "it doesn't work!!!" whine thread.

Interesting set of exchanges Markos. I like the pebble parable, good one.

Yeah, I had one of those. Except it wasn't really a whine thread per se. It was more of an "I am on the edge of the abyss but I love my DH and I am desperate and I don't know if I am going to make it and I am afraid I am failing" thread. A raw, exposed, I don't want to leave my M but I can't live the rest of my life like this thread. And then I discovered am SF specific complement to the MB I was using. And I mentioned it. And that was BAD. And I realized that I was going to have to step away, especially after DH saw how twisted into knots I was and insisted on it.

So it DID work....once I tweaked it, because were WERE different. I don't care about rhetoric. I care that at this very moment DH and I are absolutely in love.

I'm certain we don't. I'm even more certain that I don't care what your definition of MY recovered marriage is. Not in the least. But the real travesty is that people with strong opinions about other peoples' marriages are the rule on the MB forums, not the exception.



At it's best, or in coaching, I would agree that this is what MB is about.



Hm... what about si2ations where the WS never left? But my own opinion about my own si2ation and what I would have done if my W had left 2 be with RM is that I wouldn't have wanted her back. I've been married a long time, and had been married a long time when I discovered the affair. And I STILL would not want 2 recover my marriage if my W's had been a "full blown" PA or she had left (or she hadn't ended the PA even) upon d-day.

I also think it's important, when giving suggestions 2 newbies on a discussion forum, that one clearly state that they are giving their opinions, and that it is always up 2 the newbie 2 make their own determinations as w what they can or should do.



You can post your own material here on MA, since you wrote it. Your call. But since I was banned from MB it's kind of a waste 2 go there where I can't post.



Not sure what terms you'd be violating. But by all means bring it 2 your thread on thunderdome, then.

-ol' 2long