Moved post 2 Thunderation, as requested!

-ol' 2long

sere already copied her post over to TD...I think she's right that the exposure thread is a better fit than the MB program area. Could y'all move this over there/delete here?

I worry that you're right 2long and for that reason no-one should be telling vulnerable BS's that they have to do nuclear exposure to be able to recover.

Each situation is different and should potentially be handled differently.

I had a little gasp at the printed flyers exposure. It made me think of the exposure of celebrities in the tabloids. Now that is NUCLEAR!

Sorry all if what I posted upset or offended anyone.

Its best in TD.

It's not offensive at all!! The only reason for a move is just continuity.

The MarriageBuilders website helped us begin to recover. Part of that was the suggestion that I consider exposure to OWH 6 months after verifiable NC. I will comment about that over in the TD, but will be back to share how the MarriageBuilders web site helped us.

Thanks for this thread....and for how well continuity is encouraged.

Ace

So..Does anyone else have a success story to share?

From my experience ... "TRUE" MB success stories, are much like UFO's ... many claim to have seen one, but few, if any, can provide any actual evidence of their existence.

We need to separate the program from the website.

The program contains some great relationship fundamentals. (by no means, does Harley have a lock on these tenets, BTW).

The forum is just plain dangerous. Being berated and 2x4'd every time one does not adhere to the MB program as interpreted by the posters (ex: exposure turning into nuclear exposure), it is confusing and potentially damaging to the marriage.

There is not agreement about the "great relationship fundamentals."

There are issues with the program that exist even without the added mess of the forum.

There isn't anything in the Harley program that violates the generally accepted principals of psychology as taught in the schools. Harley has managed to codify certain of those principals into an organized program that works to the benefit of many people who give it a try.

He has done a very clever job of "Packaging" especially in certain aspects that resonate with the way male minds "Tend" to resonate, as opposed to the usual run of the mill "Relationship" program that is meant to sell to women who are the ones who consume a very, very high percentage of relationship programs and books.

I have had contact lately with several LPCs who use Harley's books in their practice. And it should be noted that FDI uses his material in their Christian based ministry, the largest one I think, for marriages.

My opinion is that some of his concepts are a bit weak and could use both updating and more evaluation. His program does not fit everyone, but it does fit a very high percentage of those who give it a solid try. Whether by intent or by accident, much of Harley's program is designed to fit current research on how cognitive behavior is affected by the dopamine reward system in the brain.

In my opinion, it was an accident. I base that on several parts of his program that do not fit well within current research modeling. Be that as it may, Harley's program with all its strengths and weakness is probably, in my opinion, the best of the bunch, which says more than it needs to say about how poor many of the competition's methods sort themselves out.

I hear you Larry. Now to the real world(not academia)...Harley's plans cause a lot of damage to some people (mostly BH's).

There is nothing in a psychologists teaching that would go against keeping an affair secret. That doesn't make it right. At the end of the day, what needs to be looked at is how the plans work in real life. For WH's I would say they can be pretty good. For WW's I would rarely, if ever, suggest the MB plan.

In the real world, they (Harley's model) also solve some problems, or at least are the current best methods I know of, with glaring exceptions that you accurately point out. I think that Mark has done a terrific job of modeling Harley's methods into a group thing that works in a Church environment.

For BH, I am (on a case by case basis) pretty solid in your corner but for WW, I think the Harley plans have merit, the problem is that on MB, they never got a chance to make a difference - too many rabid dogs doing their pack mentality garbage. Think about that for a moment.

And for the exposure thing, there actually is some academic based value for it, as a tool to be used when needed according to what I have been told, but I never did see it discussed for myself in any psych course I took. I do think I know how the academic thing works, so I am not as biased against it as are you.

The problem in my mind is not usually with academia, it is with those who get a doctorate and then try to monetize it with semi-simplistic solutions.

I consider my marriage an MB success story. I followed the program and it made a huge difference in my relationship. It took us from the brink of divorce and gave us a common language and program to improve and recover our marriage after infidelity. At that time, the forum was a good support system, and it helped me tremendously. I was living overseas and had no other support system, so it was a Godsend.

Larry, I hope this comment isn't too stale for me to comment on. I had not heard anything about Jennifer moving, but that does explain why she is not heard about much and is not mentioned on the website. I know she is not completely inactive, though, at least one Marriage Builders poster said he and his wife were coached by her this year: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/u...rue#Post2390578



His sincere belief seems to be that many men simply have no hope otherwise.

I heard another, older, show last week in which he referred to a case where the WW had split and the kids were developing horrible problems. The BH and WW got back together and the kids got better, but the affair was still on. Dr. Harley was encouraging him, for the sake of the kids' welfare, to keep the home together and try to outlast the entire affair.

His comments on the radio seem to be that men have more of a chance of wooing and winning a wayward wife than the other way around. Plan A is more likely to work for a man than a woman.



Well, it's stated all over the forum that Plan A is not Plan Doormat. In forum terms (not sure if Dr. Harley uses these terms or not), Plan A has a "carrot" and a "stick." The common comment from a much vilified poster over there is that women don't respect a man who responds to disrespect and adultery by bringing them flowers and candy.

So I'd have to say from what I've read that if a man is being a doormat, he's not doing Plan A right.



Here's my problem, Larry: when I refer to the Marriage Builders plans, I'm referring to the Basic Concepts. You won't see Plan A and Plan B and exposure there. And there hasn't been any need for those in my situation.

Through reading and listening a lot I've definitely developed opinions on those tools. Prior to coming to Marriage Builders my position on adultery was informed mostly by personal experience of close friends and family, and James Dobson's Love Must Be Tough. And my position was "Show them the door, in most or all cases." It was only Marriage Builders that gave me the idea it was even possible to truly recover from infidelity, and showed me what a person would want in such a case. I've got a real strong opinion about "recovery" that doesn't result in "former" betrayeds and waywards ever making it far into the Basic Concepts, and that opinion is that it would insane to go to that much pain for that little reward. So I'm not shy about expressing my opinion about using the tools that are there to ensure that that kind of recovery happens or nothing. But I don't consider myself a true expert on any of them. All I can do is repeat what I've heard and what I've learned from watching other people.

I can encourage people to listen to that free radio show. It's worth gold.

I need to listen to that show. From what I understand, Dr. Harley listens to the caller, asks questions, and then gives advice based on the principles in his books. That is good. I also understand that he does NOT just repeat the same mantra over and over again assuming that if it doesn't help the person must just be defective.

Markos:

Absolutely it is not too late, never. If you have the time, your input is valuable, especially to this thread.



Yea, I know all about her Carrot and Stick. And I have a lot of respect for her ability to simplify concepts and suggestions. I have seen a lot of guys who just can't get their head wrapped around the whole concept. You have seen it too, I bet. It would probably be useful if Dr. Harley were to provide more detail using his language for this concept.

I have also seen those who read about half of the concept and half of the well known poster's concept, then sail forth acting as if they got it, when actually they don't Frankly, Plan A takes way more study than some folks are willing to give, in my opinion. Plan A, again in my opinion, is a difficult concept to learn and teach for a lot of people and needs more explanation.

I have something I have to get done today here, so I will leave it at that for now, but will pick it up later on. Hope you continue to read here and comment.

Larry

There wasn't any need in mine either. I was even the one who brought them up in sessions with SH, at a time when I thought maybe I was still not doing something "right" for my sitch.



What a person would want? Or what the Marriage Builders method calls for? I don't think these are necessarily the same thing.



So, is the "goal" the concepts, or a recovered marriage? And the reward is an end-product of a cookbook plan? It always seemed that way 2 me, particularly on the MB forums (though it was definitely NOT the case when I coached with SH).

I don't think one can avoid going through a lot of pain after infidelity. Necessary pain. It's what we learn from the experience that makes it worthwhile in the end.



I've noticed!, though I think that "that kind of recovery" is a pretty vague descriptor. As for "nothing", that's not an option. Not recovering, at least personally, isn't a choice.



How 'bout putting a little more thought in2 the process? (I'm referring, specifically, 2 your snide remarks 2 me *after* I was banned from MB in June).



Fair enough. I don't feel any need, though. I have the MB website resources and read a couple of their books. I've had several sessions with SH (and others). I've participated on other forums and read other peoples' books. Most importantly, though, I recovered my marriage with my W, even though she never bought in2 the MB concepts.

-ol' 2long

~2long



So to what do you attribute your recovery? Is your recovery different from your wife's? How are the two of you managing your marriage compared to what was the norm before the affair?

If you want to share, that is.

Not a "what". US. My W and I enabled our recovery.



My recovery path is different from that of my W's, most definitely. She never bought in2 MB, and only spoke with Penny a couple of times. Though she had ended her PA before d-day (9 years ago this month), she was still pretty foggy and desirous of being "friends" and/or "colleagues" for another 5 or so years, so she wasn't receptive 2 the idea of working with a pro-marriage coach. Interestingly, she made her greatest strides "back" 2 the marriage when I let go of the need 2 control the outcome of "our" recovery by trying 2 steer her anywhere she didn't want 2 go. I simply told her (for the umpteenth time, but when she finally heard me) "I don't want 2 be married 2 you if you intend 2 have anything 2 do with Rat Meat for the rest of your life. If you DO want 2 keep him as a "friend", by all means I hope you hit it off, because I won't stay married under those circumstances and I wouldn't want you changing your mind about him at some fu2re date." ...or words 2 that effect. And though she was still making anti-marriage statements at the time (~2.5 years ago), she replied "I want 2 be married 2 you and I want 2 spend the rest of my life with you".



We're not "managing" in any MB sense of the term. I don't require her 2 do anything, and she doesn't require me 2 do anything. I meet her needs and she meets mine because we WANT 2, not because some cookbook tells us that we have 2. And we call one another every day when one of us is out of town because we enjoy talking 2 one another, not because we're checking up on each other.

In this day and age, one can hide anything if they want 2. Particularly if they've already been found lying. They get experience at hiding better and they hide better if that's what they want 2 do. I've gotten a lot better at trusting my own instincts and relying on THEM, rather than trusting my W will follow a plan because someone told her 2. After all, she got better at hiding for the few years she wanted 2 do so, such that I had multiple d-days of continued contact for the first few years after d-day.

The blind trust that was the "norm" in our marriage before the affair is dead, and rightfully so.



There's more in my blog about my thoughts on "programs" like Marriage Builders, if you're interested in reading more.

-ol' 2long

Thanks ~2long, question asked, answer received.

Didn't expect my words to be held to that high of a standard of precision.

How about "What I might want in such a case, hypothetically." What I meant was it was the first time I'd ever seen a reason that, to me, made sense as to why a typical person might want to.



Dr. Harley makes no bones about what his goals for marriage are.

Not sure if you and I have the same definition of "recovered" marriage.



No, Marriage Builders is more of a set of instructions for building your own customized plan. The very first steps involve identifying your own unique characteristics and desires.



Certainly there is pain from infidelity no matter what.

I'm just referring to situations where someone might take someone back when, in my opinion, they should not.

You might refer to my "if you don't set the bar high" thread on MB to get an idea what I'm talking about.



I mean recovering the marriage, or not recovering the marriage.



I'll decline this invitation to violate the terms of the forum. You and I both know that's not going to be discussed here in this thread.



Fair enough. I really didn't expect to debate the issue, other than to say "Here's an awesome resource."

That's textbook ("cookbook"?) Marriage Builders.



That would be the goal of Marriage Builders. You are describing a Marriage Builders - style marriage, free of selfish demands. You may use different terms, but you are describing exactly the things Marriage Builders says makes a marriage great.

On the radio he is able to address individual situations in more detail, and when things aren't working he is able to explain what they are missing. But he is remarkably consistent.

I've always gotten more out of seeing these concepts applied to individual situations. Such as in the Q&A columns.

Much of the value of MB comes from the model, meaning the predictions you get from asking "If this is true, what will happen if I ... ?" Where MB appears to lose value to some people (including me, at one point) is when the predictions don't appear to hold true. They start to think their situation is different and MB doesn't apply. But in such a situation hearing Dr. H explain his conception of how the concepts apply is most valuable of all.

For example, the pebble parable on my thread at MB helped me understand the Love Bank model much better and why you don't see "instant results."

Once I had built up a very solid confidence in the predictions of the Love Bank model (through personal experience and lots of increasingly nuanced understanding), I started to see real progress and relief for our situation.

That's also when my thread ceased to be an "it doesn't work!!!" whine thread.