In addition to the resources JimK posted, there is also the radio show. This is streamed over the Internet daily. Old episodes are available at:

http://www.richwith.com/mb/radio/

For a time they were advertising the old episodes on the marriagebuilders.com domain. I'm not sure why that was removed.

I personally think these are a fantastic resource, though I'm sure plenty will disagree with me. If I had to go down the list of all the resources Marriage Builders offers: the books, the forum, the coaching center, the radio show, I would least want to give up the radio show. I've listened to probably 90 hours of it, which probably accounts for why some people think I sound like a Marriage Builders advertising fanboy.

Dr. Harley has commented (on the radio show -- that's where I get this stuff) that compared to other relationship books, his are designed to be appealing to men when their wives hand the book to them and ask them to look at it. I don't think that means it's guy-centric, but it is somewhat "formulaic" which may tend to appeal more to typical males and appeal less to typical females.

The word "typical" is in my vocabulary a lot more than it used to be now.

Which is what I meant...

Yeah, when I was participating over at MB, they really didn't have the streaming radio setup, so that's something I've never taken advantage of. Of course, my registration date over there predates the internet (and almost predates radio), so ...

I tried to catch the live stream for awhile when it was on KKMS, but found it worked better to just download entire months' worth and listen to them in the car.

Mine too and so is "Tend" and "Tendency."

Rough crowd taught me.

Larry

Markos:

Then help me understand something. I have listened to his radio show as well, not nearly as much as you. I get the impression that he is more - what is the world - flexible there than in his books and web site. Is that fair comment or not?

Larry

Hi Larry,

I'm not Markos but I am willing to share my related experiences.

BTW, I believe the word "flexible" is similar to the worLd "flexible" LOL. When we called into the radio show we were told 2 different things that would seem a world away from what is promoted exclusively on the MB forums.

If it's still possible to check the MB radio archives, ("Lacie from MT", January 31, 2007) you can hear the 20 minute conversation between Dr. & Mrs. Harley and me (with my DH listening to the radio beside me).

Dr. Harley suggested that we might consider NOT exposing 6 months after verifiable NC with OW if 1) the risk of reconnection might be too strong (by renewed contact due to exposure) and 2) OWH might become violent. I believe that Dr. Harley subsequently suggested in an article that if the exposure might lead to the WS being fired (and all financial support being cut off for a stay-at-home BS), then the exposure should be delayed until the BS has adequate resources to survive and provide for the children.

The second 'flexible' thing seemed to surprise even Mrs. Harley. He said that I should tell OW that we would give her a week to confess to her H and if she did not, then we would send the exposure packet. Dr. Harley also suggested that I send her a copy of our radio conversation and I sent a copy of HNHN and Dobson's Love Must Be Tough. I also sent a photocopy of portions of Carder's Torn Asunder.

After she received the packet and heard Dr. Harley's "warning" via tape, she emailed me that "her H already knew everything and that my packet would be a waste of time." Instead of waiting a week, I called OWH immediately and confirmed that he (and not an assistant) would receive/open the special-delivery packet marked "personal" with my photocopies of his wife's pictures, cards and mushy love letters to my husband.

I could tell by what he did NOT say that he knew nothing about his WW's affair with my H so I mailed the exposure packet by overnight express. That was the best thing for us because my H said he would "do anything to help me heal." But it might not be the best option for others.

IMVHO, that was a fair statement IME, and it's too bad that posters are not able to mention their experiences with "flexible POVs" on the MB forums.

Ace

I have seen him differ on the show from the published advice on the forum, but more often he is taking a harder line, not being more flexible. In particular, he's VERY hard on men! I've heard him advise men to Plan A much much longer than the standard advice even to the point of risking their health, because he didn't feel they had any other hope any other way. In these cases it seems to be about understanding your limited options and the tradeoffs involved.

I have seen people comment all the time that they received different personal advice from Dr. Harley or Steve (interestingly I've never heard this about Jennifer) without provoking difficulty. But the standard advice is: "here's the standard plan; if you don't follow it, you may not get good results; we always advise you to get in touch with Dr. Harley or the coaching center for advise tailored to your situation, and we don't consider anyone here qualified to tell you for certain that your situation is 'different' because we've seen so many disasters ensue from people who decided their situation was 'different'."

For the record, I've only heard shows from this year. The older ones are in a pay archive and I haven't scraped up the money to purchase those. And as long as new shows are coming out, I'm not sure I'd have time to listen to them, anyway.

Thanks Markos. And yea, I understand the caveats he uses. I thought Jennifer moved to the Philippines? There hasn't been much buzz about her the past year or so.

I wonder where the heck he got the idea to modify Plan A, one of the few parts of his plans that could remotely be called controversial, the other being, maybe, exposure. On the other hand, Plan A is smart. The only problem with it in my mind is that women typically don't want to be married to a doormat. I also think it is hard for a typical guy to understand, unlike most of what Dr. Harley has to say.

We have some refugees from MWD's DB site here. Perhaps they will be able to help us integrate an understanding of Plan A with the 180. We can also take a look at some of Pep's Carrot and Stick explanations or interpretations to see how that works in the great scheme of things. There is no enforcement of strict dogma here, so we can learn without fear of getting beat up.

Just for the record, and then I have something to discuss, I took the liberty of having a friend of mine who holds a Masters in Psychology and who is also NOT qualified (his statement) in Marriage Counseling (deals with kids), to go through Dr. Harley's stuff. According to him, there is nothing in Dr. Harley's material that violates generally accepted principles of Psychology as taught in the schools. I believe him. I could say more about his findings if you want.

Exposure seems to be the hot button topic and the one that seems to attract the most vehement comments on MB. I remember this one deal with a military wife, as an example. The point there was to expose unofficially instead of officially, a military nuance that takes a bit of thinking. No facebook bomb, no letters through command, no JAG, etc., just a quite heads up through Chaplains to the WH's immediate enlisted report. It was working too, last I heard.

It is my opinion that there are a number of folks here who would pay close attention to your knowledge of Dr. Harley's mindset on exposure, current and past, and would love to discuss it with you. We also have folks here who understand the 180. Maybe they would like to get in the discussion as well.

Just for whatever it is worth, have you had time to read through the thread on peer-to-peer counseling? It starts off a bit [Bleep!], my fault, but it settles down after a bit and there is some really good stuff in the thread, including a visiting Psychologist holding forth and doing some teaching.

Larry

HNHN really made an impression on me quite a few years ago. It made sense in a way that other things I had read just didn't. I am a practical kind of person when it comes to things like plans and study (even though I am very emotionally oriented). It was great to be able to identify and then do actual work to try to meet DH's EN's. I didn't really know about the forum then.

A few years later I found the forums looking for sites about infidelity and confessing the A (because sadly I had had one). I registered, got scared, made a complete ASS of myself....But I also read SAA. THAT book just broke me, and I did confess my A. I know my DH went to the site and got a lot of good info for him too. It really helped us a lot.

A few years later (summer'09) I went back and re-registered. Our M had oozed back into the pre-A rut and cycles. Though those first contacts were lost in the crash, I got so much valuable info again. And some good kicks in the pants. And some real care and concern.

Some of the problems we have haven't responded to the really detailed forum version of some of the principles. I don't think that means the principles are unsound. I just think that when you add diabetes/bipolar/ he says he loves me/ he has no physiological drive (for the SF issue in particular)...I can 2+2 all I want and there still isn't going to be a 4. And I don't believe as a Christian that I can leave him over that. So I got stuck. And since a combo type approach isn't really encouraged. I was one of those 1-in-10. Just lucky I guess.

I think the forums can be a valuable resource. And I have also read some of the additional books over the years as well as pretty much every article and the newsletters. But since what seems to be starting to work for us includes more than JUST the MB site (like some Kevin Lehman resources and themarriagebed), I realized that I wouldn't really be an asset, so though I read, I don't believe my posting is of value anymore.

I still have all of Harley's books, and I point people in that direction frequently, especially if there is an affair issue. I don't think anyone knows how to deal with infidelity like he does.

I take complete exception with this:



And I call B.S. on it too, Markos. The directive on the forums is to follow Dr Harley's advice as it is laid out on the forums. In other words, "we're here; Dr H and MB saved our marriage and if you don't do what we tell you to do, then you will fail."

A lot of people can't afford the coaching center fees, the online fees, the weekend fees. So the books, articles and forum become their lifeline. Reading an article or a book and then discussing it with someone is invaluable IF that other someone (or someones) can discuss rationally, answer questions, debate a different interpretation...all without willy-nilly editing that destroys the entire value of having such a discussion.

It renders the forum useless.

For an example, I will cite exposure. If you read the forum, you would think that massive, nuclear exposure is the ONLY way to do exposure. And that even years down the road, if you didn't expose properly then do it again, recovered marriage or not.

Yet other people have had great success with judicious and surgical exposure. But you can't mention that on the forum.

The forum could be a great resource for people if the inmates would quit running the asylum.

Ourhouse

I think you raise valid points. I will be interested in how Markos answers you. I do draw the line between the Harley program and the forum though. And even Steve, by report, does not always recommend nuclear exposure - quite often the opposite.

Larry

Larry, I've been sure to mention throughout the inception of this board (though of course, I neglected to do so here...LOL) that I differentiate between the MB program and the forum. What makes the program work, IMO is that Dr Harley has taken his own thinking and research, married it with the best thinking of his peers and has come up with a workable, executable PLAN (his point of difference) for improving and recovering a marriage).

The forums though? Not even close... And that's part of what make them such a disaster. The inmates running the asylum there are starting to think they are the OWNERS of the plan, not simply the messengers. And stuff gets skewed and distorted and bad information is passed along more often than not. I used the Exposure issue as a prime example.

In my experience on Mbers, those that advocate a strict adherence to the plans did nothing of the sort in their own marriages.
In addition, the plan tends to be horrible for BH. More often than not, the BH was better off giving the WW ONE chance to come home, apologize and go no contact.
Many BH's that have followed his plans have wound up in hell because they dealt with long-term affairs that were rubbed in their face.
The BEST results I have seen on that board are by the people that took a hard line approach with the WS's. Are there exceptions. Sure.
In addition, Harley, not being a medical doctor and having two coaches that work with him are ill-equipped to understand the serious medical complications that result from their advice. Depression is real and his flippant way of dealing with it is to have people ask their doctor for an SSRI. [BS]. The BEST way to deal with it is to remove the root cause of the depression and not to subject yourself to emotional torture.
Also of note is the FAILURE on the part of "Dr." Harley to warn people NOT to sleep with their WS's. He had on his site, foolishly advocating sex with a wayward spouse. Meet the emotional need of sex...WRONG! It is unsafe and against any sound medical advice. Do NOT sleep with a wayward spouse. YOU can get an STD and wind up dead.
Harley does have some good ideas, but his failure to provide accurate statistics, his unwillingness to reign in the jack-boot moderators and the above issues takes away a lot of his credibility.

RE: Depression in general



Yes.

I have a friend splitting w/ her husband of 28 years. I'm not advocating the split. But I am supporting her because I believe she has tried her best to fix it and for whatever reasons, they mutually agreed to split up (no affair as far as I know)

She's been on ADs for about 5 years. She thought it was menopause related, or stress related.

She's off them now. And is feeling great.

Ourhouse:

I agree with your assessment of the MB forums.

Steve Harley certainly didn't recommend I do much of any of the things that the forum cool-aid dispensers would insist must be done.

I'm going 2 save the rest of my observations for such time as our new members from MB gain access 2 Thunderdome, assuming they want 2. This thread is about the MB program, which I don't have the problem with that I have with the forum.

I will paraphrase and underscore this statement of yours here, though:

The MB forums are useless. End of discussion!

-ol' 2long

Since this is about MB, aka Marriage Builders, let me stick my horn in as best I can. Marriage Builders is a program and a plan that was initially brought to the market via the book, His Needs, Her Needs, then later on, Surviving an Affair.

Overall, the Marriage Builder program was conceived by Dr. Harley years ago. He has repackaged it from time-to-time and done a great job of marketing through his forum, online concepts and radio, to the end of selling books and attendance at seminars or online programs and supporting his coaching center.

And there is nothing wrong with making a living through the promotion of mental health and good relationships. Just for the record, Dr. Harley's work has nothing in it that violates the generally accepted principles of psychology as taught in the schools.

For those looking for a step-by-step plan, he has a good one, if a bit dated. At least it is a good start toward a healthier marriage.

Because most, if not all of Dr. Harley's plan(s) is dated, he has a couple of concepts that could use a do over; Plan A and Exposure, at least as they are promoted by his forum, among other concepts. Psychology is a dynamic profession and, simply put from a layman's view, Dr. Harley hasn't continued to validate his plans and program to keep it fresh and up to date.

Dr. Harley's program is a program. And therein lies it greatest strength and weakness. Because it is a program, there is a path to follow. This is of particular interest to some males and a few females, who often are simply looking for a step-by-step path to follow and who could give a hoot about the underlying concepts. Thus those who do follow the steps become "Programmed." And it works. At least for those who adhere.

There are no byways for those for whom the program doesn't fit quite right. And that is it's downfall. Dr. Harley's program doesn't get you to think, it gets you to follow. And for those who follow, it works.

The forum is another story and one I am not prepared to address at this point.

Larry

Larry,

For the most part I agree with what you said. I do think Harley has made some changes over the years though and that some of those changes never really make it into the mainstream of the forum for quite some time.

HNHN came first and then SAA if memory serves me. It was in LBs that the entire "plan" began to take shape. The seminar materials including the 5 steps workbook tackled LBs first and then worked on ENs in order to "stop the bleeding" first so that a couple could start actually considering staying together.

The first time the whole thing was put together in one book was FILSIL which was why I picked it for a class to introduce the concepts to the masses. Up to this point, things were shifting, getting tweaked, additions and deletions were routine in various editions etc.

But FILSIL was also a departure from the whole fighting an affair thing as well. Preventing or defeating an affair had been the whole reason per the books so far and in FILSIL there appears a plan for healthy marriage that can be introduced even before a marriage takes place that can help a couple avoid the pitfalls so many of us fell into along the way.

But all of those books through FILSIL were consumer, DIY types of books. The model is laid out in very simple terms and is presented as steps to take to arrive at a predetermined goal, calling that goal a happy marriage. But the most recent book from Harley that was released early this years is a change, not in plan or program but in the way it is explained and presented. The book is not written as a DIY guide for folks that are hurting or facing a serious problem in their marriage. It is instead written as a way to present the Love Bank model to those seeking to help couples such as counselors.

So the way the whole thing is presented has more to do with the why than previous books than it has to do with the what to do from the couple's perspective. In the early pages Harley lays out the reason for the whole process that he follows and then shows how he applies the whole thing in his own practice.

What struck me as I read that book was the depth to which his most basic notion should permeate a relationship, if we truly understand it. It should in fact modify our interaction even with other people with whom we do not have a romantic relationship, IMO. That basic concept, the one thing upon which the "plan" and "program" have developed is that whatever we do, it affects others. As applied to marriage, it can be said that whatever we do affects our spouse in some way. Since this can be a positive or negative reaction that is caused by what we do, the rest of his material is an effort to identify the things that fall into each camp and give us a clear way to modify our actions to ensure we are doing things that enhance the relationship and avoid doing those things that are detrimental to it.

To me this is no shallow or simple idea. It also gives a sort of metric a place to begin that can determine if what we are doing is in line with that whole notion. The rest of the terminology and "steps" are really nothing more than his way to attempt to quantify things in a way that average Joe can apply them. I even think there lies within Harley's material the ability to identify ENs that are not on his list, choose any EN as being in a person's top 5 no matter the original gender bias associated with those ENs in the original books and even get to the bottom of such things as why chewing ice can drive our spouse nuts.

Harley's program is a lot more flexible that it gets represented on the forums and I think that it becomes so rigid because of the desire to keep it "pure" and true to its roots. I would venture that the typical person who reads the books HNHN, SAA, LBs and FILSIL has very little understanding of why these things are laid out like they are. In reference to something I posted elsewhere, the Process has replaced the Mission and the Vision has become diluted by years of repetition. I think it's actually one of the dangers of becoming successful in an area that caters to the masses. The masses learn, memorize, flesh out and defend the *what* without ever understanding the *why*. When something "worked for me" it becomes the definition of what is meant and if enough people can be convinced they had a shared or common experience, the cool aid is being mixed by those willing to drink it.

The *why* is still there. It just never gets brought into the light because of the emphasis on *what*.

JMO.

Mark

Egad Mark, now I have to go off and think. Ugh, what a tiresome activity, full of mental activity and all that rot.

Points made. And fair analysis.

Now lemme think about it.

Larry

Hello there,
Is the new book that Dr. Harley released earlier this year FILSIL?
I'm currently trying to decide in which order his books should be read for the greatest understanding of his program. Thanks Mark.

LaFemme,

The book I am referring to is Effective Marriage Counseling and was released early this year. It is a book that lays out Dr Harley's counseling methods as well as the Love Bank model and even some of the QA procedures he uses in house.

Fall In Love Stay In Love is the entire program in single book form with much less emphasis on troubled or broken marriages and few references to infidelity. It includes sections on Love Busters as well as Emotional Needs, his various policies including Undivided Attention, Joint Agreement and Radical Honesty. It is a good introduction to his materials and is primarily informational in nature.

HNHN goes into more depth regarding Emotional Needs and LBs does the same for Love Busters. The part that seems to be most life changing for many couples is really the application of the materials which is spelled out by the 5 Steps To Romantic Love workbook. There are worksheets that can be completed to clarify the ENs and LBs as identified by the LBQ and ENQ and the book includes logs for examples of LBs and such.

Some couples can implement the stuff on their own but I have found that most require a bit of help at least in getting the whole thing to work. There are various ways of doing this, IMO and the class my wife and I lead is one example (Dynamic Marriage from Family Dynamics Institute, founded by Joe Beam). We are also trying to develop our own class based on FILSIL though it is much easier to do what matters for couples that are not already in crisis or that have experienced perhaps years of neglect.

About 25% of couples are already in pretty good relationships. They are proactive and already working to keep the marriage healthy. FILSIL is great for these couples. Another 50% of couples are not having troubles but are not really working on the marriage so much as living life day to day and reacting to what comes along. In the upper half of this group, FILSIL can be an eye-opener, and might push them to take their marriage to the next level. For the lower half of this group, a little more directed application might be needed and a class or other accountability method can help them avoid the problems that they might encounter simply because they are unaware that they might come along.

The remaining 25% of couples are already in trouble and one or both might be in a State of Withdrawal or might already be engaged in an affair or have checked out of the marriage relationship. FILSIL alone will not do much for these couples and a more directed approach is what is required to bring them back form the brink. This is the group that Harley's MB Weekend was designed to address as well as FDI's A New Beginning program which is lead by Masters level or higher counselors and researchers.

One issue that comes up a lot is that much of what is called marriage counseling is pretty ineffective for a good number of couples. Some of this is technique and some is application IMO. A lot of individual therapy models have been applied to marriages over the years and these very often lead to problems becoming worse within the marriage rather than helping couples. EMC lays out Harley's procedures for counseling as well as his model so a counselor that wishes to explore another way of doing things has enough to at least get started on seeing a different way of doing things.

For example, Harley is not a big fan of letting couples sit together venting about the past or even recent events. He instead works with each person and helps each one find solutions to the things they are doing wrong instead of letting them beat each other senseless in his office. This makes the counselor the source of discomfort and allows the couple to build bonds between them rather than letting each one become the source of discomfort for the other. Subtle differences like this in application can make a huge difference.

Mark

Mark
I appreciate the thoughtful and detailed reply. I've been married for 23 years and am always looking for ways to improve my marriage.
Off to order some books..........
Thanks so much.

I will say that in my opinion FILSIL was the best of the "general marriage" books that Dr. H has written. Because it does kind of have everything.

And the first book I recommend to anyone who talks to me about infidelity (whether it be a BS or WS) is SAA. I can still remember the words in that book smashing chinks in my wayward armor one summer day at the pool. That book was a big part of what saved us.

I can speak about Jenn. I counseled with her in the Spring of 2002. At the time, my husband was living with a female "friend". She never said a single word about exposure to me. Not one.

Never thought about it before, but when I counseled with Steve (Fall of '06) he never said a word about it either. Huh.

At the time, I told the people I needed to tell for support, including our grown kids. Never exposed at his job (even though OW worked there), or to his sister (his only living relative). Deemed it more harmful than useful.

We recovered anyway.