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Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: Puppy Dog Tails] #26271
11/22/10 05:25 PM
11/22/10 05:25 PM
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Brotherly Love
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Quote:
The only thing that every really got her attention was when I pushed for the divorce, I cut off contact with her, and she started to fear I was dating someone else. It wasn't until she was afraid I was really walking away that she made a big move back toward me.


This is how I'm feeling right now.
I feel I need to push more towards D so she wakes up.


Find a passion and pursue it.Fall in love.Dream Big.drink wine, eat good food and spend quality time with good friends.laugh everyday.tell stories. learn more. never give up. be grateful try new things be. happy. and above all, make every moment count.
Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: Puppy Dog Tails] #26273
11/22/10 05:27 PM
11/22/10 05:27 PM
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Danf Offline
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From Flowmom.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Both spouses in the marriage have equal power, all the time. Not taking the WAS or WS as having all the power is key. I don't hear most of the DB as embracing equal power very much. I have more studying to do, for sure.


Not sure who to attribute this to, but "the power in the relationship lies with the person who cares the least" seems to resonate most with my observations.

As far as pursuing, I agree with your thoughts in a troubled marriage, but DB advice of non-pursuing is basically aimed at advising the spouse who is at risk of divorce. In that case, one spouse has basically disengaged from the marriage and is no longer welcoming getting ENs met from their spouse, or any attempts at connection. At that point non-pursuit is designed to remove the illusion that the wanting-to-be-married spouse will continue to meet ENs, etc when the wanting-to-divorce spouse is focused on getting those needs met elsewhere (whether or not there is an active A).

Last edited by Danf; 11/22/10 05:29 PM.

Me45 - S13, D11
Disconnected 7/1/12

I'm a brand new sky to hang the stars upon tonight......
Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: gr8 day 2b alive] #26275
11/22/10 05:30 PM
11/22/10 05:30 PM
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Soleil Offline
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Originally Posted By: gr8 day 2b alive
Quote:
The only thing that every really got her attention was when I pushed for the divorce, I cut off contact with her, and she started to fear I was dating someone else. It wasn't until she was afraid I was really walking away that she made a big move back toward me.




But what happens if you decide you do not want them back? (or are unsure of whether to keep the relationship?)

Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: gr8 day 2b alive] #26277
11/22/10 05:32 PM
11/22/10 05:32 PM
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Quote:
I feel I need to push more towards D so she wakes up.


It's the second part of that sentence that worries me.

I think if you are embracing the possibility of divorce and letting go because you are not willing to continue as things are any longer, then you will find fewer people willing to argue with you.

If you are doing it as a tactic to get her to do something, then I think you need to take a look at why you are still holding on and trying to make her choices for her.

Whatever you do, you have to be alright with the consequences as we are all responsible for our own choices, and this includes your wife as well as you.

There are no guarantees that by letting go she will "wake up". She isn't asleep. She is wide awake and doing what she is doing quite deliberately.

She cannot feel like she's losing your if you don't let go, but... even if you do let go, there is no guarantee that her feeling you leave is going to change her mind. It might, it might not.

If you let go, it has to be because you are no longer willing to continue this way.


Your Time Perspective Can Heal
Mend the broken, make strong the weak and vanquish the evil.
Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: Soleil] #26279
11/22/10 05:36 PM
11/22/10 05:36 PM
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Quote:
But what happens if you decide you do not want them back?



If you've decided, then I guess you've decided.


Quote:
(or are unsure of whether to keep the relationship?)


I think this ^^^^ is perfectly natural if you've reached the point where you decide to let them go. Puppy and Rob eventually reconciled, but their wives had to help them do that.



Your Time Perspective Can Heal
Mend the broken, make strong the weak and vanquish the evil.
Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: TimeHeals] #26281
11/22/10 05:36 PM
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Thanks for summarizing and sharing future!


Me45 - S13, D11
Disconnected 7/1/12

I'm a brand new sky to hang the stars upon tonight......
Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: Soleil] #26283
11/22/10 05:37 PM
11/22/10 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: Soleil
Originally Posted By: gr8 day 2b alive
Quote:
The only thing that every really got her attention was when I pushed for the divorce, I cut off contact with her, and she started to fear I was dating someone else. It wasn't until she was afraid I was really walking away that she made a big move back toward me.




But what happens if you decide you do not want them back? (or are unsure of whether to keep the relationship?)


Then you no longer have a problem, right? You have moved on and if you dated, you may have found someone else to meet YOUR EN's.


Me45 - S13, D11
Disconnected 7/1/12

I'm a brand new sky to hang the stars upon tonight......
Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: TimeHeals] #26287
11/22/10 05:39 PM
11/22/10 05:39 PM
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Danf Offline
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Originally Posted By: TimeHeals
If you let go, it has to be because you are no longer willing to continue this way.


EXACTOMUNDO!!!!


Me45 - S13, D11
Disconnected 7/1/12

I'm a brand new sky to hang the stars upon tonight......
Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: TimeHeals] #26290
11/22/10 05:42 PM
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Brotherly Love
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I agree, the are very conscience about their decsions.

Quote:
If you let go, it has to be because you are no longer willing to continue this way.


TH,
I was totally there a few months ago. I did everything to move towrds D b/c I needed to put all the crap behind me.
I knew I would be just fine eiter way. Started to go out with OW and enjoy myself.

I even told her I wasn;t going to back into limbo anymore b/c it's a horrible place.

When she tried to talk about her changing her mind I didn't jump for joy and she just gave up.

Now I am questioning her motives and sincerity on piecing.

Last edited by gr8 day 2b alive; 11/22/10 05:42 PM.

Find a passion and pursue it.Fall in love.Dream Big.drink wine, eat good food and spend quality time with good friends.laugh everyday.tell stories. learn more. never give up. be grateful try new things be. happy. and above all, make every moment count.
Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: futureunknown] #26291
11/22/10 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: futureunknown
The MB philosophy says I should have hung in there, not pushed the issue around her A and OM, keep meeting her ENs, and wait for her to "fall back in love" with me.
future, I have to disagree with your take on MB. There is so much more to it than just meeting ENs, and it does NOT tell you to not push the issue! You confront, and you make it plain you will not accept her cheating and you take steps to stop it: you expose, you withdraw funding, you cut off the cell phone and make her pay for it if she wants one, you tell the children mommy has a boyfriend, you do not watch the kids so she can carry on her affair, you talk to her HR if the AP is a coworker...there are many ways you make the affair not seem so great, but rather embarrassing, hard to keep up, basically burst the fantasy.

Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: TimeHeals] #26295
11/22/10 05:47 PM
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Soleil Offline
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Originally Posted By: TimeHeals
If you are doing it as a tactic to get her to do something, then I think you need to take a look at why you are still holding on and trying to make her choices for her.

There are no guarantees that by letting go she will "wake up". She isn't asleep. She is wide awake and doing what she is doing quite deliberately.



I think this is spot on.


Originally Posted By: TimeHeals
Quote:
But what happens if you decide you do not want them back?



If you've decided, the I guess you've decided.


Quote:
(or are unsure of whether to keep the relationship?)


I think this ^^^^ is perfectly natural if you've reached the point where you decide to let them go.


More good advice.

Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: gr8 day 2b alive] #26314
11/22/10 06:03 PM
11/22/10 06:03 PM
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TimeHeals Offline
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Quote:
When she tried to talk about her changing her mind I didn't jump for joy and she just gave up.


Is there still an OM in the picture?


Your Time Perspective Can Heal
Mend the broken, make strong the weak and vanquish the evil.
Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: catperson] #26315
11/22/10 06:03 PM
11/22/10 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: catperson
you tell the children mommy has a boyfriend
I cannot disagree with this tactic more. Children are the innocent bystanders of divorce...it's not fair to involve them in adult dramas and give them information that they have no way of understanding or processing. Eventually many of them will come to realize this on their own and will need help to process it, but using it as a tactic is not in the children's interest, even if the intention (saving the M) is good.

Last edited by flowmom; 11/22/10 06:05 PM. Reason: toned it down a bit

we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: flowmom] #26322
11/22/10 06:08 PM
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It's not a tactic, it's an explanation to a child for why their world is falling apart. They KNOW when they're being lied to and it upsets and confuses them. Telling them the truth reassures them that you are finally being honest and they don't have to worry about being ignored.

The side benefit to exposure is that the cheater KNOWS that no matter what happens, their family will never truly accept the AP.

Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: flowmom] #26328
11/22/10 06:13 PM
11/22/10 06:13 PM
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My children were told of my A to help them understand the situation. Not for any other reason. They had to know that my relationship was wrong and they had to know why OM had suddenly disappeared from their lives...

to not tell them would have been wrong and would have left them wondering and not understanding the tension... they could have been blaming themselves for the instability at home that the A was causing!!!!

...even though they were only 3 and 5 at the time


Married 22years (this year) ~13y since dday(?)
DD17 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: catperson] #26385
11/22/10 07:16 PM
11/22/10 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted By: catperson
It's not a tactic, it's an explanation to a child for why their world is falling apart. They KNOW when they're being lied to and it upsets and confuses them. Telling them the truth reassures them that you are finally being honest and they don't have to worry about being ignored.

The side benefit to exposure is that the cheater KNOWS that no matter what happens, their family will never truly accept the AP.


Agree with Cat. It's a difficult decision, to be sure, and you have to tell them in an age-appropriate way, of course. In my own sitch, I decided to immediately expose to my two adult daughters (then 20 and 18), and eventually -- two months in -- I told my S (then 14). D18 already knew (and was trying to protect ME from it, the poor thing), and D20 and S14 already strongly suspected. I didn't want my son to hear it from his friends at school, since it was starting to get around, and like Cat says I wanted to err (if I was going to err) on the side of ALWAYS TELLING MY KIDS THE TRUTH.

I have no regrets. In fact, the pressure that my MIL and my D18 put on my wife -- coupled with my "I will not be your friend if our marriage ends this way" stance -- were the three things that I believe exerted the most influence on my wife to end her affair after just 3 months.

Puppy


Drink the koffee, not the Kool-Aid.
Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: Puppy Dog Tails] #26397
11/22/10 07:33 PM
11/22/10 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I'll chime in, as I have some familiarity with both the MWD philosophy, the robx philosophy, and the MB Plan A/B philosophy. The MWD and MB Plan A are similar. Hang in there, fix what you can between the two of you, and see if they come around. The robx and MB Plan B are similar, and similar to Dobson's "tough love" approach, and even MWD's "after the LRT" approach. It's essentially "I won't tolerate this, I deserve better, I'm gone, good luck." Whether or not you date after making such a decision is irrelevant in my opinion, as you've drawn your line and walked away.

In the absence of infidelity, I think the MWD and Plan A are completely appropriate. Try to fix the marriage! Infidelity changes everything though, and it needs to be addressed first, and I think that's rob's point. Fortunately, I think the very qualities that would make a wayward wife be attracted back to her husband would also make her want to stay with him if he maintains those qualities. Confidence, self respect, and a great attitude toward life are qualities that help any marriage be healthy and strong.


That's a succinct and great compare-and-contrast, Future -- THANK YOU. As a student of both approaches, I think that's an accurate description.

Quote:
In my two year sitch I have implemented both, and even intertwined them (probably to my detriment). No doubt that during the initial stages of my sitch I impressed my WAW with my 180's and GALing, but it did nothing to stop her. Unfortunately, she was just too hung up on her OM, and maintained her A. The only thing that every really got her attention was when I pushed for the divorce, I cut off contact with her, and she started to fear I was dating someone else. It wasn't until she was afraid I was really walking away that she made a big move back toward me.


That was precisely my experience as well.

Puppy



Yep.

And the Shock and Awe type of social interaction is not an A or infidelity at all. It is a tactic to throw a bucket of ice water over the head of the infidel. In fact, it is a sort of mirroring the behavior of the WAS, without the sex, of course, or lies, or sneaking. It is out in the open.

And the funny part of it is that the WAS jumps to the immediate conclusion that there IS sex involved, because that is how THEY are behaving...and lying about it.

So, if this is done correctly, and PDT advises that a LBS has one good shot at doing this, but most people screw it up, it is very effective. It cannot be done half-@ssed. It needs to implemented with testicles fully intact.

No guts, no glory.


THE FOG comes
on little cat feet.

It sits looking
over harbor and city
on silent haunches
and then moves on....C. Sandburg


GOSH!!
GOLLY!!
Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: kimmie lee] #26400
11/22/10 07:37 PM
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I just don't get it...it just causes more hurt where there is so much hurt already....it just doesn't make sense to me to set out to hurt your spouse knowing that you are setting out to do it to make them hurt.


Married 22years (this year) ~13y since dday(?)
DD17 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: Squeaky Tree] #26405
11/22/10 07:42 PM
11/22/10 07:42 PM
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It is intended to show the WAS how much their OWN sleazy behavior IS hurting their spouse.

And it works.


THE FOG comes
on little cat feet.

It sits looking
over harbor and city
on silent haunches
and then moves on....C. Sandburg


GOSH!!
GOLLY!!
Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: catperson] #26411
11/22/10 07:45 PM
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futureunknown Offline
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Originally Posted By: catperson
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
The MB philosophy says I should have hung in there, not pushed the issue around her A and OM, keep meeting her ENs, and wait for her to "fall back in love" with me.
future, I have to disagree with your take on MB. There is so much more to it than just meeting ENs, and it does NOT tell you to not push the issue! You confront, and you make it plain you will not accept her cheating and you take steps to stop it: you expose, you withdraw funding, you cut off the cell phone and make her pay for it if she wants one, you tell the children mommy has a boyfriend, you do not watch the kids so she can carry on her affair, you talk to her HR if the AP is a coworker...there are many ways you make the affair not seem so great, but rather embarrassing, hard to keep up, basically burst the fantasy.


Yes, you are right in the case of an active affair within a marriage. In my case, my wife chose to pursue her affair, she moved out, and (mostly) established herself financially independent from me. We have lived separately for almost two years now, sharing custody of our three little kids. Her affair was long distance, and sputtered and died over the course of last year. While it was dying she started to reach back to me, completely on her terms of course. I pushed a tiny bit on her to see how truly committed she was to reconciliation, and even with the tiniest push, all I got back was indignant anger. I started implementing essentially the MB Plan B, and I told her no thanks, I wanted to move forward with the divorce, and I almost totally cut off from her. She responded with what I can only describe as narcissistic rage, followed by a bizarre mix of pursuit and attack. She tried to tempt me, flirt with me, and she sued me for full custody of our kids. When none of that got any reaction out of me at all, after six months, she finally buckled, and came to me in a submissive state and asked if we could talk. I agreed, and we started down a path of not-great-but-not-quite-false reconciliation last summer. She did make some real efforts toward rebuilding our relationship, and she did drop her guard a bit with me, but every time she saw in me the destruction her affair caused, she reacted with anger toward me, and finally I had to cut my losses and walk away.

From what I understand about the MB Plan B, I should have ignored her attitude about her affair, and just kept concentrating on the fact that she was back in the game with me, kept meeting her emotional needs, and rebuilding our relationship. I couldn't do it. She was making it clear I was her second choice, and a marriage cannot be built on that. On the DB site, robx was a big voice supporting my decision.

Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: Squeaky Tree] #26419
11/22/10 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: staytogether
I just don't get it...it just causes more hurt where there is so much hurt already....it just doesn't make sense to me to set out to hurt your spouse knowing that you are setting out to do it to make them hurt.


I did not set out to hurt my spouse. I set out to begin to move on, and explore my options, as my wife was still moving away from our marriage and expressing the desire to date others.

Everyone draws the line at a different place. Some draw it at discovering their wayward spouse's affair, and the cheater refuses to end it. Others draw it at LS; still others decide to only date once the D is final.

This is not "infidelity." In my case, I told my wife what I was doing, and was actually only, finally AGREEING to what SHE said she wanted to do. Technically, I guess you could try to make a case that it's "an open marriage," but that's just silly.

Puppy


Drink the koffee, not the Kool-Aid.
Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: futureunknown] #26423
11/22/10 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: futureunknown


From what I understand about the MB Plan B, I should have ignored her attitude about her affair, and just kept concentrating on the fact that she was back in the game with me, kept meeting her emotional needs, and rebuilding our relationship. I couldn't do it.


MB folks,

IS that an accurate assessment of what Harley's "Plan B" would call for at that stage?

Puppy


Drink the koffee, not the Kool-Aid.
Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: Puppy Dog Tails] #26429
11/22/10 08:03 PM
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futureunknown Offline
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I snipped this from Marriage Builders. Hope I didn't break any forum rules.

This describes my situation UNBELIEVABLY well (except replace the comment about "drinking" with "grumpiness and emotional distance")!

Quote:

But because most affairs do not end with a choice to permanently separate from a lover, the recovery stage does not usually begin with much zeal. Instead, it begins with bitterness. If the affair dies a natural death (the spouse and lover simply drift away, or the lover ends it), the unfaithful spouse wakes up to find himself or herself still married, but married to a spouse who is very upset about everything that happened. How does one go about getting that kind of marriage restored?

It's very common for the spouse having the affair to feel unremorseful. And it's common for the victimized spouse to feel that it wasn't his or her fault, either. So when an affair has ended, and a couple is ready to rebuild their relationship, neither wants to take responsibility. They both look at each other as having been very selfish, and they look at themselves as having gone the extra mile, with nothing to show for it. Why apologize for something that was the other person's fault?

There is a sense in which an apology is not really necessary. The only thing that's necessary is for the couple to take appropriate steps to rebuild their relationship. But an apology can certainly make taking those steps much easier.

S.C.'s wife is not sorry she had an affair. In fact she feels that it did her some good. She "finally did something for herself." That sure sounds like her Taker, doesn't it (if you don't know what a "Taker" is, be sure to read "The Giver and the Taker" in my Basic Concepts). Her Taker is only concerned about her happiness, and not the least bit concerned about S.C.'s happiness. It was her Taker that was doing the talking for her, telling S.C. that he had it coming, after what he had put her through with all of his drinking.

Taker's don't ever apologize. But they demand it of others. It was S.C.'s Taker that wanted an apology from his wife. It remembered that S.C.'s Giver had once told his wife he was sorry for his neglect of her while he was drinking, and now it was time for his wife to apologize for her offense. But at this point in their relationship, neither of their Givers are anywhere to be found, so there is little hope for repentance.

But now that the affair is over, does it do S.C. any good to try to pry an apology out of his wife? At this point, her feelings for S.C. are not the best, and any effort on his part to try to make her feel guilty will do nothing but withdraw more love units from an already bankrupt Love Bank. His best approach is to ignore the past, and focus on what he can do to start depositing love units. The more love units he deposits, the more her Taker will drop back and allow her Giver some room to maneuver. In fact, if her Giver shows up, she may surprise S.C. with an apology for the affair without him even asking for one.

S.C.'s best course of action is to create the best marriage possible by learning how to meet his wife's emotional needs, overcome Love Busters and create a unified lifestyle where neither of them would have second secret lives that can grow into affairs.


In my case, I was unwilling to keep meeting my W's emotional needs, because she had proven to me that I couldn't trust her to be honest with me about whether they were being met. As happened during the last year of our living together marriage, she enjoyed all my work toward meeting her emotional needs, and fixing our marriage, while conducting her affair in secret, and eventually leaving me. Trust is shattered, and I don't even know if it's possible to rebuild at this point.

Last edited by futureunknown; 11/22/10 08:09 PM.
Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: futureunknown] #26433
11/22/10 08:14 PM
11/22/10 08:14 PM
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Not2fun Offline
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Not2fun  Offline
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Originally Posted By: futureunknown


From what I understand about the MB Plan B, I should have ignored her attitude about her affair, and just kept concentrating on the fact that she was back in the game with me, kept meeting her emotional needs, and rebuilding our relationship. I couldn't do it.


Future,

YOu misunderstood about Plan B then.

Plan B is for when all avenue's of Plan A have been applied.
You go into Plan B when the WS refuses to end the affair and refuses to begin marital reconciliation. In Plan B, the BS avoids all contact with the WS until the affair has ended and the WS agrees to a PLAN of marital recovery. Usually, the BS get legal representation and files for a Legal Separation. The BS also get an intermiderary to handle any communication about the kids. In other words, the BS has absolutely NO CONTACT with the Wayward Spouse and the WS is still engaged in an ACTIVE AFFAIR.

Usually the biggest mess up people have with this is they do not have a PLAN in place for marital recovery. The BS is usually so relieved that the affair is over, they do not negotiate a PLAN of recovery and accept the WS without eliminating all the conditions that made the affair possible in the first place.

So far, in most of the cases I have seen on MA, this seems to be the BIGGEST MISTAKE. No real plan for Recovery. Which is WHY you are seeing OM1, OM2, ect. If the affair ends but the WS still does NOT AGREE to a Plan of Recovery, then the BS should stay in Plan B (NO CONTACT with the Wayward Spouse....)

So no Future, you were not in a true MB Plan B.

And to clear up any other misconcepts about Plan A, Plan A is when a BS negotitates with the WS to end the affair. You do so by eliminating Love Busters (angry outburst, selfish demands, disrespectful judgements) and showing a willingness to meet the emotional needs of the WS. Also, exposure is also done while in Plan A. Exposure includes family and friends who can help put pressure on the WS to end the affair, the OP's spouse, and especially the children. When the WS refuses to end the affair and the BS has done Plan A for short while (Dr. H recommends 3-4 weeks for women depending and up to 6 months for men depending....this is not a SET IN STONE timeline, btw), the BS THEN goes into Plan B. Dr. H recommends Plan B for up to 2 yrs because nearly ALL affairs end with-in that time frame.

Not2fun

Last edited by Not2fun; 11/22/10 08:18 PM. Reason: added a few key points...

" If you couldn't change your partner when you were together, you sure aren't going to now that you aren't together..." Words of the teacher of the court mandated parenting class...and the ONE thing that stuck out to me!!!
Re: "Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... [Re: Puppy Dog Tails] #26436
11/22/10 08:16 PM
11/22/10 08:16 PM
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silverado Offline
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I'm not a MB folk, but from what I've read, this is not Plan B.

Plan B is DARK, pitch dark. It's what Allen always described as "protection phase" with intermediaries and all....No contact whatsoever until the wayward agreed to end all contact with OP and work on the marriage.

Just wanted to clarify.

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