This I can actually understand. But I have to say, some of what I have read lately seems less like standing and more like stalking. If my husband had bought a giant padlock, I would almost have perceived it as a threat, like that movie "Sleeping with the Enemy."

I think this is part of my confusion. I understood MF's (very brief) description of talk charges on his website to be something that needs both people - you are building a connection by speaking (and hearing) each other's deeper thoughts.

I've seen a few of these on the DB forum as well. It's very sad, and more than a little pathetic. Wherever you fall on the "standing" spectrum when they are STILL MARRIED, to continue to stand for a marriage that no longer exists is kinda creepy.


Puppy

I keep coming back to something I believe is a basic truth about humans: at our most basic level we don't want to suffer, and we want to be happy and content.

While we all will suffer, it's probably a good idea to ask ourselves if what we are doing is causing us more suffering or likely to create more lasting happiness and contentment.

Now, I also believe you need a good and insightful moral code as a guide because some things that are pleasurable can lead to profound suffering, and there is a distinction--for me--between pleasure and happiness. Pleasure is more temporal, and it doesn't last. Happiness and contentment can be more enduring.

You can eat a jelly donut, and it's pleasurable, but if you eat too many of them, then you become unhealthy, for example.

It's hard watching somebody doing the same things over and over and ruminating on things that only bring them more suffering when you believe they can stop doing those things and meditating on those things that bring them so much suffering

Wise words, TH.





Puppy

During my first year after the separation, there was a gal on DB who I tried to connect with. I'm not sure why...maybe because I felt sorry for her, maybe partly because I saw part of myself in the same place as her. She was staying home, reading all kinds of books and trying to "get better."

Nevertheless, she had been divorced already for two years. She was sad ALL of the time. Then, one day, all of a sudden, out of the blue, her ex called her. He had just broken up with his gf and they talked (connected, I guess) on the phone. This DB gal was giddy. And, they continued to talk for a time and then he asked her out to dinner, which they did.

Things seemed to be going along pretty smoothly, until one day, not long after a date or two, he made it clear to her that they were just friends etc, etc. and not long after that, they lost connection again. From what I remember, she was following DB principles to a tee, saying all the "right" things etc. But, this 'sign' and disconnect of his, mad her her slip back into, what I thought was depression and her books. It was too sad for me to watch. I lost contact with her shortly after that.

In my case, every time I tried to connect with my ex, he showed extreme anger. It was sad to watch that too.

TimeHeals said, "Now, I also believe you need a good and insightful moral code as a guide because some things that are pleasurable can lead to profound suffering, and there is a distinction--for me--between pleasure and happiness. Pleasure is more temporal, and it doesn't last. Happiness and contentment can be more enduring."

This is a great quote. Even if you love someone (or something) there comes a time when you have to let it go. Not letting go of a certain painful past, simply because you once found great pleasure in it, is definitely not healthy, as most people know.

For me, I try to put this concept into practice a lot. But, I have to be careful, for I have been known to go overboard in the opposite direction too. For me, there has to be a middle ground, a balance that is not always easy to find. In fact, I'm looking for that now, as I face yet another chapter in my life.

BTW, I haven't yet clicked on Mort Fertel's Fitness link, or talk charges. I am not sure I like the term "talk charges" either ME. I guess I'll like it better once/if I wrap my head around it.

That's an excellent question.

There are three separate threads relentlessly selling commercial product which is claiming extremely high but unverifiable success rate.

The salesman's blog reveals very little progress in his own case.

Yet it is being promoted as Gospel and endorsed widely here.

Some have pointed out that in many cases this could be dangerous and damaging approach for new desperate BS's but their concerns and views have been struck down with brute force. Many questions about the program and its promoter still remain unanswered.

So as the delivery is concerned, all I see is a shill.

(Mods, please note that I used "shill" as a verb not a noun)


Cheers.

Yup, you can't tango with yourself.

This is something I struggle with: sometimes people mistake kindness and compassion for weakness and seek to take advantage of that perceived weakness.

Adopting a firm but compassionate stance without becoming angry is difficult for me sometimes.

Al Turtle recommends:
http://www.alturtle.com/archives/1326

IMHO, a person whose spouse won't talk to them would be wise to understand why.


http://www.alturtle.com/archives/96

[BTW, I would heartily recommend anything by Al Turtle, a wise teacher who has honoured MA with his insights. He has books' worth of writing available for free on his web site (no sign-ups required) and his phone counseling fees are very modest. No, I do not profit from promoting his stuff - I just think he is awesome.]

I agree, Flowmom.

The OP might want to check out the free Al Turtle stuff here in addition to the MF program.

I just saw the padlock thing that HRF was talking about, and as a female, I was stunned. No matter the words or context, that image would NOT soothe my lizard.

hi B! just catching up on this thread. ftr, i don't promote rejoice ministries or their position on FOREVER "standing for marriage"... was merely pointing out that when people use the term "standing for marriage," i tend to think of that particular prayer and website.

and, like i said much earlier on in this thread, i also do NOT promote the MF one-year herculean plan timeframe. i consider it much, much too long.

just wanted to clarify. thanks!

ETA: i will however continue to support an individual's right to choose a plan they see best suited to help them recover their marriage-- even if that particular plan seems nuts to me. doesn't mean i have to recommend it to anyone else.

flowmom-- yes, thank you for posting the Al Turtle link for posters. i also highly recommend his available, free info!

FM, thank you for finding that.

rodion- I must agree with everyone else- it seems a tad on the stalking side and I am not sure it will be effective. it is always so much easier to clearly see a situation as opposed to actually being in it. Have you noticed that to be the case when you examine others life circumstances?

I read your blog again today and I see mind-reading.

I am not sure what advice to give. I am not sure if you want advice or want a medium to simply discuss what you have done so far and to discuss Mort Fertel.

I still do not know enough to make a judgement on the program- not sure if I will but in more time and effort to learn.

One thing I have learned is that very life happens in a manner you do not want it to happen. We resist heartily. We try all types of methods and techniques to get back what we once had- it can or can not be successful.

I guess my question to you would be what is the definition of success and failure in say the next month or next 3 months or even a year. Do you have just one plan or contingency plans.

There has been great discussion about what you are doing in attempts to recover your marriage- I would like to know what you are doing to recover you- you happiness, your inner peace, and your healing of the hurt you have received. I guess my question is in all of this focused plan- we are you in it all? Where do you as a person of worth stand?

What the heck can you tell us even the most basic stuff about your life? What you like to do? What is your passion in life? etc.

I agree...but at the same time I like to be the devil's advocate and make sure people have thought through all aspects of the program. I know that when I was in the early stages I was clutching and straws and hadn't thought it all through yet (and am grateful for the people on this forum that pushed me to think more critically).

I have spent some time reading through the Marriage Fitness forum threads. It made me sad. So many people had been in this for a very long time, and some of the suggestions seemed to me to verge on stalking - in fact, several people said they had been threatened with restraining orders (although none actually filed).

It just seems so disrespectful to continue calling every day when your spouse has asked you to stop, possibly changed numbers or turned off the phone. It seems disrespectful to be trying to hug or kiss someone who has made it clear with body language or words that they would like you to stop doing that. If one is overriding the spouse's wishes over something they should have complete control over (their body), then it seems one is actually sending a message that the spouse isn't in charge. You are.

I understand wanting to stand for your marriage. I understand refusing to consider yourself "unmarried" and being reluctant to date again or to break your vow of fidelity. I understand continuing to love your spouse unconditionally. I wholeheartedly agree with working on oneself and one's relationship skills.

I don't understand refusing to move forward - making a point not to change anything, refusing to accept your spouse's wish not to be touched by you, calling all the time, spending large amounts of time thinking of the spouse every day (talk charges, strategizing gifts or touch charges etc).

The MF plan, to me, sounds great for people whose marriage is in a slump. To me, it sounds awful for people whose spouses have left the home and are in an A (anything over 3 months seems excessive to me in that situation). It sounds irresponsible (to me) for people whose spouse is in the throes of an addiction.

OK as has been stated on another thread I am standing.

I just had my favorite book The Solo partner taken out of the Thunderdome.

It is where I believe that DB and others have derived some of their advice from.

I have had some discussion with Al Turtle about this book and he also believes the theory and has even come up with a very similar theory on his own.

It basically describes the whole pursuit and distance dance.|
And gives different traits for men and women about pursuit and distance.

So if Rodions still participating here, or for anyone else.
You can read about detaching and stopping pursuit.

After that I would like to know how that fits in with what MF advises.
I have my own ideas but I would like to read others.

one more post that i believe is necessary in following-up on this thread--





hi herf,

i don't mean to make a big deal about the frank sinatra letter, but i do not think that you really do understand.

i feel as if you somehow took it (the letter) as a slam against you, or possibly a slam against other MA posters in regards to any posted disagreement(s) with the MF plan-- and that assumption simply is NOT true.

perhaps my biggest mistake on posting the letter was that i failed to address it soley to rodion-- for it was sincerely meant as a pep talk to/for him (and nothing more). like i said, a "chin up, keep the faith" message. furthermore, as i just posted above to believer, despite my individual opinion of any particular program, i like to think that i am able to offer some type of support to a poster who seems convinced that a particular plan IS RIGHT for them. and in THAT SPIRIT, i posted the frank sinatra letter.

i debated whether or not to post a follow-up to your post-- as i originally thought the best thing to do was to ignore. however, i feel that my motives for posting the letter were called in to play when you inferred that i possibly meant to cause harm... and i feel it IS necessary to clarify that NOTHING could be further from the truth.

in closing, i sincerely apologize for the hurt the letter caused you or anyone else on this forum.

in the spirit of the holidays, marie

yes, of course! this is why it's always a very good thing when a variety of people weigh in on a thread. and why there is a you and a me-- as i like to think that there are posters out there that need both our unique spirits.


to Rich-- thanks for bringing your book review thread here as well.

Wow, Cajun- this is telling. If the program promotes people to pursue to the point that people are thinking of filing restraining orders- then something definitely is amiss here.

Usually, there's the program...and there's how people implement it. Not always the same thing. DB never recommended pursuit to the point of getting slapped with a restraining order, but it did encourage: 1. the idea your actions have a big influence over your chance of reconciliation, 2. constantly monitoring for signs of "progress", 3. tolerating your spouse having an affair without setting major boundaries, etc. Pandering to desperate BS/LBS can result in their taking inappropriate actions in the name of a marriage program - instead of thinking for themselves.

I think sometimes the implementation of a program can depend upon the personality of the person implementing it. This isn't a marriage program, but I have a few people who are in AA. Some of them attend meetings, they have worked and work the program, they try to live by the things they have learned, but they incorporate it as a part of the fabric of their lives, so to speak. A couple of the people I know see and do everything - I mean ever single detail of life down to how to buy groceries - as some sort of AA exercise. They stopped attending church because the church does not follow the AA plan - AA has become their church. If someone deviates even a millimeter from the letter of every word....they basically write that person off as not "really" doing AA. In fact, they have exaggerated things that are not strictly part of AA because they kind of....need every tiny thing to be structured and controlled.

I am a big picture kind of person. Even as a teacher, I was never one to do the whole legalistic "Orff only" approach to teaching because students learn differently so I tailored my teaching that way. Obviously, middle C was still middle C, but I didn't follow the Orff lesson plan cookie cutter with every single lesson. Mainly because I would have been bored to death after awhile, and so would the kids. I would be a terrible representative of any program that required absolute adherence in lock step with every single word. That just isn't how my brain works. Plus, I am not a "formula" kind of person, I guess.

So I think flowmom is right. Sometimes when we talk about how legalistic or extreme or whatever a program is....maybe we need to step back and see if we should separate the actual original program from what it can morph into depending on who is applying it, if that makes sense.

Very good point FM

Thinking of you, rodion, and hoping that the holidays aren't too lonely.

Here's another discussion on TAM that gives more details of the MF program -

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/self-help-m...s-can-work.html