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Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? - talk charges [Re: poet] #270514
12/20/12 01:12 PM
12/20/12 01:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
Quote:
reaching out every once in a while in a casual relaxed manner to let them know you are thinking of them?


This I can actually understand. But I have to say, some of what I have read lately seems less like standing and more like stalking. If my husband had bought a giant padlock, I would almost have perceived it as a threat, like that movie "Sleeping with the Enemy."

Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? - talk charges [Re: rodion] #270534
12/20/12 02:52 PM
12/20/12 02:52 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
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TX
CajunRose Offline
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Originally Posted By: rodion
Originally Posted By: believer
The talk charge is for talking about things like you used to talk when you were dating. It is not for discussing problems, infidelity, financial problems, etc.

Right. A talk charge sends the message, "I'm thinking about you." That's its power. It has nothing to do with trying to convince your spouse to do this or that.


I think this is part of my confusion. I understood MF's (very brief) description of talk charges on his website to be something that needs both people - you are building a connection by speaking (and hearing) each other's deeper thoughts.


Current spouse: Night. D10, D9, S7

About me

You can't direct the wind, but you can adjust your sails.

http://www.divorcedmomfinances.com
Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? - talk charges [Re: believer] #270535
12/20/12 02:57 PM
12/20/12 02:57 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,227
Puppy Dog Tails Offline
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Originally Posted By: believer
We had a poster here who moved over to Rejoice Ministries.

She was still standing for her marriage though her husband had divorced her, remarried and had started another family.

However, it seemed more like she was wallowing, than standing. It was very sad. I hope she got more help on that site.



I've seen a few of these on the DB forum as well. It's very sad, and more than a little pathetic. Wherever you fall on the "standing" spectrum when they are STILL MARRIED, to continue to stand for a marriage that no longer exists is kinda creepy.


Puppy


Drink the koffee, not the Kool-Aid.
Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? - talk charges [Re: Puppy Dog Tails] #270536
12/20/12 03:12 PM
12/20/12 03:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,931
Tennessee
TimeHeals Offline
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Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails

I've seen a few of these on the DB forum as well. It's very sad.


Puppy


I keep coming back to something I believe is a basic truth about humans: at our most basic level we don't want to suffer, and we want to be happy and content.

While we all will suffer, it's probably a good idea to ask ourselves if what we are doing is causing us more suffering or likely to create more lasting happiness and contentment.

Now, I also believe you need a good and insightful moral code as a guide because some things that are pleasurable can lead to profound suffering, and there is a distinction--for me--between pleasure and happiness. Pleasure is more temporal, and it doesn't last. Happiness and contentment can be more enduring.

You can eat a jelly donut, and it's pleasurable, but if you eat too many of them, then you become unhealthy, for example.

It's hard watching somebody doing the same things over and over and ruminating on things that only bring them more suffering when you believe they can stop doing those things and meditating on those things that bring them so much suffering frown





Your Time Perspective Can Heal
Mend the broken, make strong the weak and vanquish the evil.
Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? - talk charges [Re: TimeHeals] #270543
12/20/12 03:29 PM
12/20/12 03:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,227
Puppy Dog Tails Offline
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Originally Posted By: TimeHeals
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails

I've seen a few of these on the DB forum as well. It's very sad.


Puppy


I keep coming back to something I believe is a basic truth about humans: at our most basic level we don't want to suffer, and we want to be happy and content.

While we all will suffer, it's probably a good idea to ask ourselves if what we are doing is causing us more suffering or likely to create more lasting happiness and contentment.

Now, I also believe you need a good and insightful moral code as a guide because some things that are pleasurable can lead to profound suffering, and there is a distinction--for me--between pleasure and happiness. Pleasure is more temporal, and it doesn't last. Happiness and contentment can be more enduring.

You can eat a jelly donut, and it's pleasurable, but if you eat too many of them, then you become unhealthy, for example.

It's hard watching somebody doing the same things over and over and ruminating on things that only bring them more suffering when you believe they can stop doing those things and meditating on those things that bring them so much suffering frown






Wise words, TH.


whistle whistle whistle whistle


Puppy


Drink the koffee, not the Kool-Aid.
Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? - talk charges [Re: Puppy Dog Tails] #270593
12/20/12 05:48 PM
12/20/12 05:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
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poet Offline
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During my first year after the separation, there was a gal on DB who I tried to connect with. I'm not sure why...maybe because I felt sorry for her, maybe partly because I saw part of myself in the same place as her. She was staying home, reading all kinds of books and trying to "get better."

Nevertheless, she had been divorced already for two years. She was sad ALL of the time. Then, one day, all of a sudden, out of the blue, her ex called her. He had just broken up with his gf and they talked (connected, I guess) on the phone. This DB gal was giddy. And, they continued to talk for a time and then he asked her out to dinner, which they did.

Things seemed to be going along pretty smoothly, until one day, not long after a date or two, he made it clear to her that they were just friends etc, etc. and not long after that, they lost connection again. From what I remember, she was following DB principles to a tee, saying all the "right" things etc. But, this 'sign' and disconnect of his, mad her her slip back into, what I thought was depression and her books. It was too sad for me to watch. I lost contact with her shortly after that.

In my case, every time I tried to connect with my ex, he showed extreme anger. It was sad to watch that too.

TimeHeals said, "Now, I also believe you need a good and insightful moral code as a guide because some things that are pleasurable can lead to profound suffering, and there is a distinction--for me--between pleasure and happiness. Pleasure is more temporal, and it doesn't last. Happiness and contentment can be more enduring."

This is a great quote. Even if you love someone (or something) there comes a time when you have to let it go. Not letting go of a certain painful past, simply because you once found great pleasure in it, is definitely not healthy, as most people know.

For me, I try to put this concept into practice a lot. But, I have to be careful, for I have been known to go overboard in the opposite direction too. For me, there has to be a middle ground, a balance that is not always easy to find. In fact, I'm looking for that now, as I face yet another chapter in my life.

BTW, I haven't yet clicked on Mort Fertel's Fitness link, or talk charges. I am not sure I like the term "talk charges" either ME. I guess I'll like it better once/if I wrap my head around it.


I thank God for all the times he saved my life, for putting all the people in my path who helped save it, and all the other people I met along the way.
Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? - talk charges [Re: Mary Emma] #270665
12/20/12 08:26 PM
12/20/12 08:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,913
pookie69 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mary Emma
Pookie, how would you like to get your message effectively across? Do you think what you just wrote will make the reader receptive or defensive? If a person is defensive do you think they will embrace your message?


That's an excellent question.

There are three separate threads relentlessly selling commercial product which is claiming extremely high but unverifiable success rate.

The salesman's blog reveals very little progress in his own case.

Yet it is being promoted as Gospel and endorsed widely here.

Some have pointed out that in many cases this could be dangerous and damaging approach for new desperate BS's but their concerns and views have been struck down with brute force. Many questions about the program and its promoter still remain unanswered.

So as the delivery is concerned, all I see is a shill.

(Mods, please note that I used "shill" as a verb not a noun)


Cheers.



"A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? - talk charges [Re: CajunRose] #270670
12/20/12 08:46 PM
12/20/12 08:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,913
pookie69 Offline
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Originally Posted By: CajunRose

I think this is part of my confusion. I understood MF's (very brief) description of talk charges on his website to be something that needs both people - you are building a connection by speaking (and hearing) each other's deeper thoughts.


Yup, you can't tango with yourself.




"A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? - talk charges [Re: pookie69] #270671
12/20/12 08:56 PM
12/20/12 08:56 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,931
Tennessee
TimeHeals Offline
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Originally Posted By: pookie69
Originally Posted By: CajunRose

I think this is part of my confusion. I understood MF's (very brief) description of talk charges on his website to be something that needs both people - you are building a connection by speaking (and hearing) each other's deeper thoughts.


Yup, you can't tango with yourself.



This is something I struggle with: sometimes people mistake kindness and compassion for weakness and seek to take advantage of that perceived weakness.

Adopting a firm but compassionate stance without becoming angry is difficult for me sometimes.


Your Time Perspective Can Heal
Mend the broken, make strong the weak and vanquish the evil.
Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? - talk charges [Re: Mary Emma] #270672
12/20/12 09:22 PM
12/20/12 09:22 PM
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flowmom Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mary Emma
Does Al Turtle kind of use this method? When one has moved on I believe he has stated something to the effect of leaving them be but reaching out every once in a while in a casual relaxed manner to let them know you are thinking of them?

Al Turtle recommends:
Quote:
What to do when He/She Leaves?

1. GIVE UP ALL SIGNS OF PUSHING.

This is very important. Your partner is already moving away. Anything you do to push them will tend to make them move away faster and further. Stop anything that might be construed as pursuing or pressing them. If your instinct is to call them twice a day, start calling them once a week. If your instinct is to send them a gift, do it once a month. If you are trying to find out what they are doing by asking other people, dont. Leave them alone a lot. Let your partner contact you when they are ready.

2. SURVIVE [...]

3. WORK ON YOUR SELF, VISIBLY [...]

4. BE AVAILABLE MINIMALLY WHEN YOUR PARTNER ASKS FOR CONTACT

It is reasonable that your partner will try to contact you. They may ask for a chat. Ask, How long? Agree to give them half that time. They may ask for dinner together. Agree to give them a short one. They may ask for you to spend the night. Stay only through the evening. Get used to this. Think that you are trying to get a deer to come out of the forest and eat from your hand. You have to earn (or in this case, re-earn) their trust and never lose it again.
http://www.alturtle.com/archives/1326

IMHO, a person whose spouse won't talk to them would be wise to understand why.

Quote:
What to do when he/she wont talk to you.

Amazingly this is a very common occurrence, and there is something you can do. I am particularly familiar with this as I am the kind of guy who can talk with someone about intimate subjects for 60 hours, or more, straight. I can drive everyone crazy, and they didn't use to want to talk with me much. (Also check out my papers on Reliable Membership and on the Testicle Principle.)

Rule: People won't talk cuz they don't feel safe to.

This is a pretty simple and very reliable rule. I suggest you learn it. I have found it helps when I want someone to talk to me and they won't. What is typical for me is to try to push them to talk. I had tried thousands of ways, it seemed. My ways never worked. So finally I accepted the idea that "pushing doesn't work." Of course many of my pushing techniques were very tricky and subtle. Still my partner could instantly see, or feel through me and see my pushing. It just didn't work.

Thus my first task is to start to help them feel safe. I have found this is both very difficult and easy. Making anyone feel anything is pretty near impossible. They will feel what they chose to feel, darn them. Still there are lots of things that trigger a sense of safety in a person. And there are lots of things that tend to make a person feel unsafe. Find 'em.

http://www.alturtle.com/archives/96

[BTW, I would heartily recommend anything by Al Turtle, a wise teacher who has honoured MA with his insights. He has books' worth of writing available for free on his web site (no sign-ups required) and his phone counseling fees are very modest. No, I do not profit from promoting his stuff - I just think he is awesome.]


we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? - talk charges [Re: flowmom] #270681
12/20/12 09:37 PM
12/20/12 09:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 20,616
B
believer Offline
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B
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Posts: 20,616
I agree, Flowmom.

The OP might want to check out the free Al Turtle stuff here in addition to the MF program.

I just saw the padlock thing that HRF was talking about, and as a female, I was stunned. No matter the words or context, that image would NOT soothe my lizard.


"I feel sad that I focused so much on his potential and so little on mine."
Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? - talk charges [Re: believer] #270694
12/20/12 10:45 PM
12/20/12 10:45 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,346
O
ohmy_marie Offline
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Originally Posted By: believer
We had a poster here who moved over to Rejoice Ministries.

She was still standing for her marriage though her husband had divorced her, remarried and had started another family.

However, it seemed more like she was wallowing, than standing. It was very sad. I hope she got more help on that site.


hi B! just catching up on this thread. ftr, i don't promote rejoice ministries or their position on FOREVER "standing for marriage"... was merely pointing out that when people use the term "standing for marriage," i tend to think of that particular prayer and website.

and, like i said much earlier on in this thread, i also do NOT promote the MF one-year herculean plan timeframe. i consider it much, much too long.

just wanted to clarify. thanks!

ETA: i will however continue to support an individual's right to choose a plan they see best suited to help them recover their marriage-- even if that particular plan seems nuts to me. doesn't mean i have to recommend it to anyone else. wink

Last edited by ohmy_marie; 12/20/12 10:52 PM.

may came home with a smooth round stone
as small as a world and as large as alone. -- e. e. cummings
Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? - talk charges [Re: flowmom] #270697
12/20/12 10:56 PM
12/20/12 10:56 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,346
O
ohmy_marie Offline
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O
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flowmom-- yes, thank you for posting the Al Turtle link for posters. i also highly recommend his available, free info!


may came home with a smooth round stone
as small as a world and as large as alone. -- e. e. cummings
Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? - talk charges [Re: flowmom] #270700
12/20/12 11:01 PM
12/20/12 11:01 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,592
Mary Emma Offline
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Mary Emma  Offline
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Posts: 4,592
Originally Posted By: flowmom
Originally Posted By: Mary Emma
Does Al Turtle kind of use this method? When one has moved on I believe he has stated something to the effect of leaving them be but reaching out every once in a while in a casual relaxed manner to let them know you are thinking of them?

Al Turtle recommends:
Quote:
What to do when He/She Leaves?

1. GIVE UP ALL SIGNS OF PUSHING.

This is very important. Your partner is already moving away. Anything you do to push them will tend to make them move away faster and further. Stop anything that might be construed as pursuing or pressing them. If your instinct is to call them twice a day, start calling them once a week. If your instinct is to send them a gift, do it once a month. If you are trying to find out what they are doing by asking other people, dont. Leave them alone a lot. Let your partner contact you when they are ready.

2. SURVIVE [...]

3. WORK ON YOUR SELF, VISIBLY [...]

4. BE AVAILABLE MINIMALLY WHEN YOUR PARTNER ASKS FOR CONTACT

It is reasonable that your partner will try to contact you. They may ask for a chat. Ask, How long? Agree to give them half that time. They may ask for dinner together. Agree to give them a short one. They may ask for you to spend the night. Stay only through the evening. Get used to this. Think that you are trying to get a deer to come out of the forest and eat from your hand. You have to earn (or in this case, re-earn) their trust and never lose it again.
http://www.alturtle.com/archives/1326

IMHO, a person whose spouse won't talk to them would be wise to understand why.

Quote:
What to do when he/she wont talk to you.

Amazingly this is a very common occurrence, and there is something you can do. I am particularly familiar with this as I am the kind of guy who can talk with someone about intimate subjects for 60 hours, or more, straight. I can drive everyone crazy, and they didn't use to want to talk with me much. (Also check out my papers on Reliable Membership and on the Testicle Principle.)

Rule: People won't talk cuz they don't feel safe to.

This is a pretty simple and very reliable rule. I suggest you learn it. I have found it helps when I want someone to talk to me and they won't. What is typical for me is to try to push them to talk. I had tried thousands of ways, it seemed. My ways never worked. So finally I accepted the idea that "pushing doesn't work." Of course many of my pushing techniques were very tricky and subtle. Still my partner could instantly see, or feel through me and see my pushing. It just didn't work.

Thus my first task is to start to help them feel safe. I have found this is both very difficult and easy. Making anyone feel anything is pretty near impossible. They will feel what they chose to feel, darn them. Still there are lots of things that trigger a sense of safety in a person. And there are lots of things that tend to make a person feel unsafe. Find 'em.

http://www.alturtle.com/archives/96

[BTW, I would heartily recommend anything by Al Turtle, a wise teacher who has honoured MA with his insights. He has books' worth of writing available for free on his web site (no sign-ups required) and his phone counseling fees are very modest. No, I do not profit from promoting his stuff - I just think he is awesome.]


FM, thank you for finding that.

rodion- I must agree with everyone else- it seems a tad on the stalking side and I am not sure it will be effective. it is always so much easier to clearly see a situation as opposed to actually being in it. Have you noticed that to be the case when you examine others life circumstances?

I read your blog again today and I see mind-reading.

I am not sure what advice to give. I am not sure if you want advice or want a medium to simply discuss what you have done so far and to discuss Mort Fertel.

I still do not know enough to make a judgement on the program- not sure if I will but in more time and effort to learn.

One thing I have learned is that very life happens in a manner you do not want it to happen. We resist heartily. We try all types of methods and techniques to get back what we once had- it can or can not be successful.

I guess my question to you would be what is the definition of success and failure in say the next month or next 3 months or even a year. Do you have just one plan or contingency plans.

There has been great discussion about what you are doing in attempts to recover your marriage- I would like to know what you are doing to recover you- you happiness, your inner peace, and your healing of the hurt you have received. I guess my question is in all of this focused plan- we are you in it all? Where do you as a person of worth stand?



Me 41
H 40
S 9
S 6

I want to live in a world where George Zimmerman offered Trayvon Martin a ride home to get him out of the rain that night. -Bishop G. Brewer
Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? - talk charges [Re: Mary Emma] #270701
12/20/12 11:02 PM
12/20/12 11:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,592
Mary Emma Offline
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Mary Emma  Offline
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What the heck can you tell us even the most basic stuff about your life? What you like to do? What is your passion in life? etc.


Me 41
H 40
S 9
S 6

I want to live in a world where George Zimmerman offered Trayvon Martin a ride home to get him out of the rain that night. -Bishop G. Brewer
Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? [Re: ohmy_marie] #270703
12/20/12 11:08 PM
12/20/12 11:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,381
TX
CajunRose Offline
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CajunRose  Offline
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Originally Posted By: ohmy_marie
ETA: i will however continue to support an individual's right to choose a plan they see best suited to help them recover their marriage-- even if that particular plan seems nuts to me. doesn't mean i have to recommend it to anyone else. wink


I agree...but at the same time I like to be the devil's advocate and make sure people have thought through all aspects of the program. I know that when I was in the early stages I was clutching and straws and hadn't thought it all through yet (and am grateful for the people on this forum that pushed me to think more critically).

I have spent some time reading through the Marriage Fitness forum threads. It made me sad. So many people had been in this for a very long time, and some of the suggestions seemed to me to verge on stalking - in fact, several people said they had been threatened with restraining orders (although none actually filed).

It just seems so disrespectful to continue calling every day when your spouse has asked you to stop, possibly changed numbers or turned off the phone. It seems disrespectful to be trying to hug or kiss someone who has made it clear with body language or words that they would like you to stop doing that. If one is overriding the spouse's wishes over something they should have complete control over (their body), then it seems one is actually sending a message that the spouse isn't in charge. You are.

I understand wanting to stand for your marriage. I understand refusing to consider yourself "unmarried" and being reluctant to date again or to break your vow of fidelity. I understand continuing to love your spouse unconditionally. I wholeheartedly agree with working on oneself and one's relationship skills.

I don't understand refusing to move forward - making a point not to change anything, refusing to accept your spouse's wish not to be touched by you, calling all the time, spending large amounts of time thinking of the spouse every day (talk charges, strategizing gifts or touch charges etc).

The MF plan, to me, sounds great for people whose marriage is in a slump. To me, it sounds awful for people whose spouses have left the home and are in an A (anything over 3 months seems excessive to me in that situation). It sounds irresponsible (to me) for people whose spouse is in the throes of an addiction.


Current spouse: Night. D10, D9, S7

About me

You can't direct the wind, but you can adjust your sails.

http://www.divorcedmomfinances.com
Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? - talk charges [Re: Mary Emma] #270706
12/20/12 11:16 PM
12/20/12 11:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,287
PEEKSKILL NY
Rich57 Offline
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PEEKSKILL NY
OK as has been stated on another thread I am standing.

I just had my favorite book The Solo partner taken out of the Thunderdome.

It is where I believe that DB and others have derived some of their advice from.

I have had some discussion with Al Turtle about this book and he also believes the theory and has even come up with a very similar theory on his own.

It basically describes the whole pursuit and distance dance.|
And gives different traits for men and women about pursuit and distance.

So if Rodions still participating here, or for anyone else.
You can read about detaching and stopping pursuit.

After that I would like to know how that fits in with what MF advises.
I have my own ideas but I would like to read others.

Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? [Re: herfuturesbright] #270713
12/20/12 11:34 PM
12/20/12 11:34 PM
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Posts: 2,346
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ohmy_marie Offline
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one more post that i believe is necessary in following-up on this thread--

Originally Posted By: herf
I am assuming this means that those of us who are skeptical of a plan that has aspects that disturb us are the ones who are tight, locked up, resentful, and facsimiles of ourselves.....

I wonder if that is a personal attack.


Originally Posted By: herf
I understood completely.


hi herf,

i don't mean to make a big deal about the frank sinatra letter, but i do not think that you really do understand.

i feel as if you somehow took it (the letter) as a slam against you, or possibly a slam against other MA posters in regards to any posted disagreement(s) with the MF plan-- and that assumption simply is NOT true.

perhaps my biggest mistake on posting the letter was that i failed to address it soley to rodion-- for it was sincerely meant as a pep talk to/for him (and nothing more). like i said, a "chin up, keep the faith" message. furthermore, as i just posted above to believer, despite my individual opinion of any particular program, i like to think that i am able to offer some type of support to a poster who seems convinced that a particular plan IS RIGHT for them. and in THAT SPIRIT, i posted the frank sinatra letter.

i debated whether or not to post a follow-up to your post-- as i originally thought the best thing to do was to ignore. however, i feel that my motives for posting the letter were called in to play when you inferred that i possibly meant to cause harm... and i feel it IS necessary to clarify that NOTHING could be further from the truth.

in closing, i sincerely apologize for the hurt the letter caused you or anyone else on this forum.

in the spirit of the holidays, marie

Last edited by ohmy_marie; 12/21/12 12:12 AM. Reason: spelling

may came home with a smooth round stone
as small as a world and as large as alone. -- e. e. cummings
Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? [Re: CajunRose] #270720
12/21/12 12:10 AM
12/21/12 12:10 AM
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ohmy_marie Offline
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Originally Posted By: cajunrose
I agree...but at the same time I like to be the devil's advocate and make sure people have thought through all aspects of the program.


yes, of course! this is why it's always a very good thing when a variety of people weigh in on a thread. and why there is a you and a me-- as i like to think that there are posters out there that need both our unique spirits. grin


to Rich-- thanks for bringing your book review thread here as well.


may came home with a smooth round stone
as small as a world and as large as alone. -- e. e. cummings
Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? [Re: CajunRose] #270724
12/21/12 12:20 AM
12/21/12 12:20 AM
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Mary Emma Offline
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Originally Posted By: CajunRose
Originally Posted By: ohmy_marie
ETA: i will however continue to support an individual's right to choose a plan they see best suited to help them recover their marriage-- even if that particular plan seems nuts to me. doesn't mean i have to recommend it to anyone else. wink


I agree...but at the same time I like to be the devil's advocate and make sure people have thought through all aspects of the program. I know that when I was in the early stages I was clutching and straws and hadn't thought it all through yet (and am grateful for the people on this forum that pushed me to think more critically).

I have spent some time reading through the Marriage Fitness forum threads. It made me sad. So many people had been in this for a very long time, and some of the suggestions seemed to me to verge on stalking - in fact, several people said they had been threatened with restraining orders (although none actually filed).

It just seems so disrespectful to continue calling every day when your spouse has asked you to stop, possibly changed numbers or turned off the phone. It seems disrespectful to be trying to hug or kiss someone who has made it clear with body language or words that they would like you to stop doing that. If one is overriding the spouse's wishes over something they should have complete control over (their body), then it seems one is actually sending a message that the spouse isn't in charge. You are.

I understand wanting to stand for your marriage. I understand refusing to consider yourself "unmarried" and being reluctant to date again or to break your vow of fidelity. I understand continuing to love your spouse unconditionally. I wholeheartedly agree with working on oneself and one's relationship skills.

I don't understand refusing to move forward - making a point not to change anything, refusing to accept your spouse's wish not to be touched by you, calling all the time, spending large amounts of time thinking of the spouse every day (talk charges, strategizing gifts or touch charges etc).

The MF plan, to me, sounds great for people whose marriage is in a slump. To me, it sounds awful for people whose spouses have left the home and are in an A (anything over 3 months seems excessive to me in that situation). It sounds irresponsible (to me) for people whose spouse is in the throes of an addiction.


Wow, Cajun- this is telling. If the program promotes people to pursue to the point that people are thinking of filing restraining orders- then something definitely is amiss here.


Me 41
H 40
S 9
S 6

I want to live in a world where George Zimmerman offered Trayvon Martin a ride home to get him out of the rain that night. -Bishop G. Brewer
Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? [Re: Mary Emma] #270725
12/21/12 12:34 AM
12/21/12 12:34 AM
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flowmom Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mary Emma
If the program promotes people to pursue to the point that people are thinking of filing restraining orders- then something definitely is amiss here.
Usually, there's the program...and there's how people implement it. Not always the same thing. DB never recommended pursuit to the point of getting slapped with a restraining order, but it did encourage: 1. the idea your actions have a big influence over your chance of reconciliation, 2. constantly monitoring for signs of "progress", 3. tolerating your spouse having an affair without setting major boundaries, etc. Pandering to desperate BS/LBS can result in their taking inappropriate actions in the name of a marriage program - instead of thinking for themselves.


we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? [Re: flowmom] #270726
12/21/12 12:47 AM
12/21/12 12:47 AM
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
I think sometimes the implementation of a program can depend upon the personality of the person implementing it. This isn't a marriage program, but I have a few people who are in AA. Some of them attend meetings, they have worked and work the program, they try to live by the things they have learned, but they incorporate it as a part of the fabric of their lives, so to speak. A couple of the people I know see and do everything - I mean ever single detail of life down to how to buy groceries - as some sort of AA exercise. They stopped attending church because the church does not follow the AA plan - AA has become their church. If someone deviates even a millimeter from the letter of every word....they basically write that person off as not "really" doing AA. In fact, they have exaggerated things that are not strictly part of AA because they kind of....need every tiny thing to be structured and controlled.

I am a big picture kind of person. Even as a teacher, I was never one to do the whole legalistic "Orff only" approach to teaching because students learn differently so I tailored my teaching that way. Obviously, middle C was still middle C, but I didn't follow the Orff lesson plan cookie cutter with every single lesson. Mainly because I would have been bored to death after awhile, and so would the kids. I would be a terrible representative of any program that required absolute adherence in lock step with every single word. That just isn't how my brain works. Plus, I am not a "formula" kind of person, I guess.

So I think flowmom is right. Sometimes when we talk about how legalistic or extreme or whatever a program is....maybe we need to step back and see if we should separate the actual original program from what it can morph into depending on who is applying it, if that makes sense.

Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? [Re: flowmom] #270758
12/21/12 07:44 AM
12/21/12 07:44 AM
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Mary Emma Offline
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Originally Posted By: flowmom
Originally Posted By: Mary Emma
If the program promotes people to pursue to the point that people are thinking of filing restraining orders- then something definitely is amiss here.
Usually, there's the program...and there's how people implement it. Not always the same thing. DB never recommended pursuit to the point of getting slapped with a restraining order, but it did encourage: 1. the idea your actions have a big influence over your chance of reconciliation, 2. constantly monitoring for signs of "progress", 3. tolerating your spouse having an affair without setting major boundaries, etc. Pandering to desperate BS/LBS can result in their taking inappropriate actions in the name of a marriage program - instead of thinking for themselves.


Very good point FM


Me 41
H 40
S 9
S 6

I want to live in a world where George Zimmerman offered Trayvon Martin a ride home to get him out of the rain that night. -Bishop G. Brewer
Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? [Re: Mary Emma] #271190
12/24/12 12:36 AM
12/24/12 12:36 AM
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Thinking of you, rodion, and hoping that the holidays aren't too lonely.


"I feel sad that I focused so much on his potential and so little on mine."
Re: Mort Fertel's marriage fitness program? [Re: believer] #271295
12/24/12 08:30 PM
12/24/12 08:30 PM
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Here's another discussion on TAM that gives more details of the MF program -

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/self-help-m...s-can-work.html


"I feel sad that I focused so much on his potential and so little on mine."
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