Yes. I would be quite disturbed if the man I love deeply right now kept trying to hug or kiss me as I kept pulling away from him. I might give in eventually, but that would be a big lovebuster, to use Harley terminology. His action would be disrespectful of my boundaries and wishes - doesn't matter if he was doing it because I thought I needed comforting or because he wanted to give a deeper connection. My space. My body.

The talk charge is for talking about things like you used to talk when you were dating. It is not for discussing problems, infidelity, financial problems, etc.

i can't get anything past you. so annoying.

I understand that.

But if your spouse isn't talking to you (either because they are into giving you the silent treatment, are checked out, or have moved out)....it seems like one is actually talking AT them rather than TO them.

Even if it is just about the weather or how pretty the flowers are or something, if I don't want to talk with someone and they insist on talking to me, continue pursuing things, whether it be a hug or seeing each other or just a conversation, then not only do I feel annoyed, I feel pressured and controlled.

I think that is a big part of what bothers me about a spouse who continues to "crowd" when their spouse has disengaged, has walked away, or is even in an A. In some ways.....standing, after a time, feels more like clinging to the illusion of control. And the resistance to letting go seems to be more about letting go of control. It would be interesting to know if the men who continue to pursue and stand even in the face of things like long term infidelity are the type of men who like to be in control, who like to "win," etc. Because it reminds me a bit of that Dr. Seuss story where the two guys are staring each other down and neither one of them will step aside....except in this scenario, one of them has already left, and the other is still standing there saying, "I'm waiting!!"

I like the way you put this. This is how I felt when I chose to "let go". I was letting go of control of the situation and respecting his wish to make his choices. My choice whether to continue to love him or not, but by acting on that, or, rather, pushing myself into his space and trying to make him "see" my love, I felt like I was being disrespctful.

I think in many situations one should not give up on the marriage right away (ultimatums are not always the appropriate first response), but I think it is more appropriate, after a short Plan A (showing one's love), then it is better to show your changes when/if the other spouse initiates contact.

I cant speak for MF but to me STANDING is NOT still.
It is not waiting.
It is moving forward with your life possibly without moving on!

I don't understand this. What do you consider "moving on?"

This is all very confusing.

Standing is moving on?

Moving on is touching and pestering someone who does not want it?

It is endless pursuing and pushing someone who does not want to be with you.

How does this work?

How long does it take before the WAW calls the police on you, or worse asks the OM to beat you to the pulp?

We've seen something quite close to this including restraining orders.

Moving forward is about living your own life and celebrating it,
living with acceptance and joy in your heart.
Getting to a place within each of us that is not about the relationship.
Not looking for someone else to fill your needs.
True for giveness.

Taking back your own personal power.

Living up to my half of the marriage vows.
Granted the other half is broken but that is the part that I do not have any control over.
Letting go of that.

I will have to think about the rest of my response and post it at another time.

To me, that is moving on. When you are no longer focused on that relationship and have let it go.

That is why I was confused.

Right.

Moving on and letting go is starting to live your life for yourself WITHOUT touching, grabbing or even thinking about your WAS.

Their actions should have NOTHING to do with you. You are not involved in their lives. You are not trying to influence or control their choices.

If you set them free to live with the consequences to their own choices, you are no longer their doormat to blame for all that's wrong on this planet.

You have disconnected yourself from their drama.

If they accept that and come to terms with the current reality then maybe there is something to discuss about.

Otherwise, to hope and dream for real and meaningful reconciliation is nothing but a pipe dream and a false hope.

Rich, the way you just explained standing makes sense to me. It sounds like, though you are maintaining your faithfulness, you are also taking care of yourself and living your life day by day in a way that is neither dependent on your wife's actions nor in a way that keeps you "attached" to her. You are not forcing hugs and kisses and trying to get her to talk to you on a constant basis. THAT makes sense to me, and it doesn't seem like your life revolves around trying to figure her out.

Yes

Seems to me that "standing" means standing not for your marriage but for your vows.

In other words, maybe "standers" are adhering to the vows made
~ to love
~ to honor
~ to cherish
~ to forsake all others
~ for richer or poorer
~ in sickness and in health
~ from this day forward
~ until death parts us

Living those vows is not, in my view, contingent on anything your spouse does or does not do.

I remember JL suggesting to me that I did myself grave injury in breaching those vows to myself -- the promises were to me --*I* will do those things, to my husband and to my God. JL has a true gift for turning things on their head whilst not making you feel bad.

I'm both ashamed and proud to say that Lord Grey, eschewer of religion and relationship stuff -- had a clearer view of this than me.

This may be a little late in coming, but I'd like to add what I think standing means, or at least how I've interpreted it.

When I was separated from my then spouse, I had several buddies from the Internet that used the word, "standing." I never asked what they meant, just sort of conjectured.

It may be possible that "standing" and "moving on" were used interchangeably at the time because I remember occasionally getting confused about it. But I've come to realize the term, "standing" means basically to "stand up for your marriage" while giving the OS the space and time they need to discover what it is they need, or want.

While this may sound passive (and it probably is) it also gives the BS the time and peace to evaluate their own needs. As in my case, I was standing for my marriage because I was brought up Catholic, which taught strict dogmas against divorce. It's not so much like that now, but the Catholic church was then. I never wanted a divorce from my then spouse. But, I came to realize, through standing (or standing up for my marriage) that it was impossible not to divorce him. It was like a long dark tunnel, for which there was only one way out.

when i think of standing, i think of this (source:Rejoice Ministries)

A Standers Affirmation

I AM STANDING FOR THE HEALING OF MY MARRIAGE!... I will not give up, give in, give out or give over 'til that healing takes place. I made a vow, I said the words, I gave the pledge, I gave a ring, I took a ring, I gave myself, I trusted GOD, and said the words, and meant the words... in sickness and in health, in sorrow and in joy, for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in good times and in bad...so I am standing NOW, and will not sit down, let down, slow down, calm down, fall down, look down or be down 'til the breakdown is torn down!

I refuse to put my eyes on outward circumstances, or listen to prophets of doom, or buy into what is trendy, worldly, popular, convenient, easy, quick, thrifty, or advantageous... nor will I settle for a cheap imitation of God's real thing, nor will I seek to lower God's standard, twist God's will, rewrite God's word, violate God's covenant, or accept what God hates, namely divorce!

In a world of filth, I will stay pure; surrounded by lies I will speak the truth; where hopelessness abounds, I will hope in God: where revenge is easier, I will bless instead of curse; and where the odds are stacked against me, I will trust in God's faithfulness.

I am a STANDER, and I will not acquiesce, compromise, quarrel or quit. I have made the choice, set my face, entered the race, believed the Word, and trusted God for all the outcome.

I will allow neither the reaction of my spouse, nor the urging of my friends, nor the advice of my loved ones, nor economic hardship, nor the prompting of the devil to make me let up, slow up, blow up, or give up 'til my marriage is healed.

- Author Unknown

Disturbing.

We had a poster here who moved over to Rejoice Ministries.

She was still standing for her marriage though her husband had divorced her, remarried and had started another family.

However, it seemed more like she was wallowing, than standing. It was very sad. I hope she got more help on that site.

Yep. That happens sometimes. It's sad. And, I wouldn't call that standing anymore. I'd call that sitting, or maybe lying.

Right. A talk charge sends the message, "I'm thinking about you." That's its power. It has nothing to do with trying to convince your spouse to do this or that.

It's pursuing and very unattractive.

Do you ever talk to other females besides your wayward wife?

Pookie, how would you like to get your message effectively across? Do you think what you just wrote will make the reader receptive or defensive? If a person is defensive do you think they will embrace your message?

You may have the best message ever to deliver- I think the method of delivery could use some refining, however.

FWIW, I do agree that it seems like pursuing and could be unattractive however I can see it working in rare moments.

Does Al Turtle kind of use this method? When one has moved on I believe he has stated something to the effect of leaving them be but reaching out every once in a while in a casual relaxed manner to let them know you are thinking of them?

I admit I hate the "talk charge" name- it's sounds new age-y (my own made up term) but if I am understanding correctly with the little knowledge I have of it, it simply involves a gentle quick contact of a positive nature to give the person a positive reminder of you. At least that is how I believe it is to be used...

I like this.
I totally agree.



I guess I dont like the words "moving on".
I prefer "moving forward"
But in general yes I agree with this.

Rich,

I never liked (and still don't like) the term "moving on" either. I was simply adding it to the conversation for background. I can rememember sooooo many times having my heart break just a little bit more every time I heard the words. Of course, now, it is a mere memory, but at the time, it was extremely painful.

Standing does sound so much more indelible, more honorable, more enduring. But, thanks for listening.