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Demanding an end to the affair #249145
07/25/12 09:44 AM
07/25/12 09:44 AM
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Lil Offline OP

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I have read over the 'hardline' threads, and golly the stuff in there is awesome.

BUT

I want some sort of sound bite thingy I can put on the BS guide . No its not going to cover all aspects of hardline as I understand it. I just need something that is gender inclusive that says "Hey, I wont share my spouse, be married or be gone"

But better written smile

Dr Harley says this demand is the one 'selfish demand' the BS can make. Michelle WD says dont make it at all.

How would you put it?


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: Lil] #249154
07/25/12 01:05 PM
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When I was going through my situation, where my wife still had communication with OM and I was trying to prevent that at any cost, it was explained to me that it's a boundary for yourself. I.e. "I don't want to be with you, if you need to do X", or "If you have any further communication with said person, I will choose to leave"..
Therefore I wouldn't call it a "demand".. you can't really demand anything of anyone. A partner in an affair will often times do as they please, all you can do is set your boundary on what your willing to tolerate. I've learned that it's when you set that HARD boundary, something will shake out.

It wasn't until I threatened divorce, saw a lawyer, brought home papers, explained there would be no further friendship after D, and expressed that I was serious as hell, did my W agree she would never communicate to OM again.. I don't view this as a demand, I view this as a sanity boundary I had to enforce to save my own self-respect.

Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: honeybadger22] #249171
07/25/12 02:57 PM
07/25/12 02:57 PM
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Vittoria Offline
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Quote:
How would you put it?

"It's either myself, our marriage, our family as one unit or it's OW/OM. There is no in-between for me."

HB, you are right in that it is a boundary. I can see it also as a demand.

Demanding something seems to always carry with it a consequence to the one the demand is directed towards and there is no negotiation allowed.

A boundary doesn't always do this. Some of my boundaries, I can negotiate. I'm thinking of a counter in our basement. It gets so cluttered with junk, not mine. I used to get so annoyed at having to put other's stuff away. For the past few years now, once a week I pile it all in a basket so that I can wipe that counter down. The basket grows higher and higher with junk until the owners of that junk need something and file through it, then it gets smaller. I can live with that one basket on the counter even if it's overflowing if I don't have to deal with everyone's else's junk before I'd like to use some of that counter space.

Setting out a boundary when it comes to infidelity in M, there is no negotiation and there is the real threat of consequence if the boundary/demand is not met.
I can see calling a demand a 'hard boundary' like what you described it. I can also see overlays in both as I've been thinking this through in my head and typing as I go.

And good for you for sticking to your boundary and following through with steps to protect it. smile


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: Vittoria] #249176
07/25/12 03:39 PM
07/25/12 03:39 PM
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"It's either myself, our marriage, our family as one unit or it's OW/OM. There is no in-between for me." vittoria

and

"Dr Harley says this demand is the one 'selfish demand' the BS can make. Michelle WD says dont make it at all." lildoggie

Ok, these concepts don't fly to well with it is either the OP or betrayed and family unit ... when kids are almost out of the house and in this then are out of the house.

It is almost a joke, like the family, what family, they left are young adults and that doesn't fly.

What suggestions are there for this situation? I haven't seen any for this situation.

This is a very sick situation, and the wayward sits there like a fly oh shinola watiing just waiting.

What family unit?

This hit when my youngest was a senior in hs...wayward just like a fly on shinola

Kids moved away for college


Last edited by Tinkerbell; 07/25/12 03:45 PM.
Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: Lil] #249210
07/25/12 07:54 PM
07/25/12 07:54 PM
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Quote:
How would you put it?


I put it this way to my ex-H, and it worked. I did it after a strategic time of eliminating LBs, meeting some ENs, and showing myself in the best light.

I confronted, told what I knew and how, and said if he spent one more night in her house while she was there, he was not coming back into my house - ever. Any and all contact had to immediately end, and Radical Honesty (including transparency) had to happen immediately and irrevocably - or he didn't come back.

I don't consider that a selfish demand. It was my boundary - about what I would and would not do. Worth noting: Yes, it was my house that I purchased in my name prior to the marriage.

You also have to mean it. Bluffing and blustering just destroys your credibility.


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: AntigoneRisen] #249231
07/25/12 09:36 PM
07/25/12 09:36 PM
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Lil Offline OP

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Dr Harley doesnt classify it as a selfish demand, because of the way he suggests it is worded

Quote:
How can a betrayed spouse insist that the wayward spouse end the affair unless a demand is made? The answer is found in the way I define a selfish demand.

Demands carry a threat of punishment -- an if-you-refuse-me-you'll- regret-it kind of thing. In other words, you may dislike what I want, but if you don't do it, I'll see it it that you suffer even greater pain.

To insist that the wayward spouse end the affair should not be made with the threat of punishment ("I'm make you suffer if you don't end it"), but rather with the simple fact that it's the most painful experience you've ever had in your life, and if the affair is not ended, your relationship must end with either a separation or divorce. To end the marital relationship is not punishment: It's to protect your own mental and physical health.


However I would like a MA version smile


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
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Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: Lil] #249263
07/26/12 01:56 AM
07/26/12 01:56 AM
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"You have two choices:

1. End the affair instantly and work with me towards restoring our marriage, or

2. I will file for divorce as I will not be in a marriage where there is a third party.

I love you and I love our children and I would prefer option 1, but know that I will vigorously pursue option 2 if you don't terminate the relationship with your affair partner instantly."

It really is that simple. All the details really don't much matter -- at the end of the day, those are the choices.

Presenting the choices to your unfaithful spouse in stark terms is a favor to them.

Of course, there are other aspects to discuss and consider, but I am of the mind that ending the affair is the starting point.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: LadyGrey] #249276
07/26/12 02:41 AM
07/26/12 02:41 AM
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Lil Offline OP

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I like it.

As is often pointed out, the WS fog does make processing a lot of information tricky for many. This concise statement also removes the potential for negotiation.


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: Lil] #249286
07/26/12 03:22 AM
07/26/12 03:22 AM
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LadyGrey Offline
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Originally Posted By: lildoggie
I like it.

As is often pointed out, the WS fog does make processing a lot of information tricky for many. This concise statement also removes the potential for negotiation.


The fact is Lil that that that is reality, unless the faithful spouse is willing to limp along for ages knowing that the affair is ongoing. Waiting months and months to present reality seems foolish to me.

To put it another way, ask the question of your unfaithful spouse "what do you see as the happy ending here?"

I asked myself that about 1000 times and had a yellow pad with a line down the center where I jotted down my thoughts. The one thing I could not ignore was the fact that the Guy didn't really care about me or my family -- he wanted what he wanted when he wanted it and I got on the list, but eventually I would have been off the list. I didn't much care about him or his family either but I didn't pursue him.

Someone who will have an affair with a married person lacks a certain something in the desirability area -- and I include myself in that category. I'm a safer spouse today than I ever was before, but still and all I did do what I did.

So what IS the happy ending? You ride off together on the white horse to sunshine and rainbows? Not likely.

I actually think "what do you see as a happy ending here?" is a pretty good question to ask an unfaithful spouse. Whatever outcome they have in their head is likely unachievable in the real world.

You (the unfaithful spouse) continue to play both ends against the middle? You go majorly underground and hope against hope that your now alert spouse doesn't notice? You continue to weave ever more elaborate lies? Your spouse decides that he/she is cool with you dating while married and you still want to be married to a person with such low self esteem? Your kids turn into total idiots and don't notice? The laws of economics are suspended?

The choices are what they are, just like in the multiple choice tests we took in school. You might have a different answer, but the choices stayed the same.

Presenting them when you are ready is a favor to yourself, your unfaithful spouse and your family.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: LadyGrey] #249299
07/26/12 04:31 AM
07/26/12 04:31 AM
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LadyGrey Offline
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To be clear, I don't mean instantly end the affair in the next 5 minutes -- more like 30/60/90 days depending on the circumstances (someone your spouse works with, someone they have been involved with for a while, etc.) and your tolerance level.

And I am a BIG believer in doing what you can to make option 1. the more appealing option in the interim. A faithful spouse can do a lot of stuff that makes the marriage very unappealing, particularly when that stuff affirms the unfaithful spouse's complaints.

Anger comes to mind for some reason.

OR, the faithful spouse can do a lot of stuff that makes the marriage more appealing.

Your choice.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: LadyGrey] #249304
07/26/12 04:50 AM
07/26/12 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I actually think "what do you see as a happy ending here?" is a pretty good question to ask an unfaithful spouse.


This is gold, LG. Gold. Fit it in there somewhere, lil!

I wish I'd thought to ask my then-WH that very thing. It was already plain to me that he wasn't figuring my welfare into his calculations, and it would have been painful to hear him say, "the rest of my life with OW," but I would rather have heard him admit it than witness the cowardly ducking, dodging and weaving he did in lieu of responding to any question I asked.

Given his mental state during that time, I know wouldn't have gotten a coherent answer, but it would've been nice to throw a speed bump onto the race track he was hurtling down. Might even have given him pause for thought when the fog started to clear...

Great question, LG.

Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: LadyGrey] #249305
07/26/12 04:53 AM
07/26/12 04:53 AM
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Lil Offline OP

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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
To be clear, I don't mean instantly end the affair in the next 5 minutes -- more like 30/60/90 days depending on the circumstances (someone your spouse works with, someone they have been involved with for a while, etc.) and your tolerance level.

And I am a BIG believer in doing what you can to make option 1. the more appealing option in the interim. A faithful spouse can do a lot of stuff that makes the marriage very unappealing, particularly when that stuff affirms the unfaithful spouse's complaints.

Anger comes to mind for some reason.

OR, the faithful spouse can do a lot of stuff that makes the marriage more appealing.

Your choice.


Noted and plagiarised wink

Do you want a special mention, or a co-author by-mention? grin


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: right here waiting] #249306
07/26/12 04:55 AM
07/26/12 04:55 AM
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Lil Offline OP

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Originally Posted By: right here waiting
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I actually think "what do you see as a happy ending here?" is a pretty good question to ask an unfaithful spouse.


This is gold, LG. Gold. Fit it in there somewhere, lil!

I wish I'd thought to ask my then-WH that very thing. It was already plain to me that he wasn't figuring my welfare into his calculations, and it would have been painful to hear him say, "the rest of my life with OW," but I would rather have heard him admit it than witness the cowardly ducking, dodging and weaving he did in lieu of responding to any question I asked.

Given his mental state during that time, I know wouldn't have gotten a coherent answer, but it would've been nice to throw a speed bump onto the race track he was hurtling down. Might even have given him pause for thought when the fog started to clear...

Great question, LG.


Ugh. I did hear this from DH when I asked him.

I'll think about it OK? Its a bit much right now


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: Lil] #249309
07/26/12 05:21 AM
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I heard it also. IMO it's not a fog clearing question. It just reinforces the lust they are in. And it's much too painful for the betrayed to hear.

We are doing lots of work with reinforcing and how much extra fuel it gives the affair partner. It all boils down to this... don't ask questions or give an affair partner room to talk because it only reinforces what they feel. The more they get to say it, the more it seems true to them. It's just like learning a new language - the only way to learn is to repeat and immerse. Don't help the wayward polish their skills at all.

Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: CityGirl] #249321
07/26/12 08:02 AM
07/26/12 08:02 AM
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From putting myself back there I agree with CityGirl (except my happy ending would have been D and life as a single mum)


Married 22years (this year) ~13y since dday(?)
DD17 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: Squeaky Tree] #249346
07/26/12 02:28 PM
07/26/12 02:28 PM
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I think the question is dependent on what the betrayed spouse is willing to deal with, more than how the wayward may or may not respond.

Someone who believes in their own personal worth, independent of how the wayward is treating them at the moment will be able to give a much more clear definitive command for respect than someone who buys into the wayward feedback of worthlessness.

So to the one who doesn't believe in their own love and respect-worthiness, I would encourage them to take a time out, away from the wayward and find their inner backbone, which can only come from recognizing that they didn't cause the other person to cheat. To avoid interacting with destructive types until they know to their core what they want.

So the demand to end the affair might out of necessity have to be postponed, because the beaten-down person will not have the necessary firmness to say, "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH - end this or that!" and know it's not going to destroy them.

Until they can step into change - into the unknown, they'll have to endure whatever the wayward inflicts on them.


Consider that we don't have to live with the consequences of our advice in your life. Act according to what you can live with!
Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: Lil] #249347
07/26/12 02:28 PM
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Sorry for the trigger,lil. My H didn't say that, and that wasn't what he wanted. At the time, though, he didn't want the marriage, either. frown I'm grateful he and Flick ultimately saw the light.

CG, I followed your story, and admired you for your tenacity, and for salvaging your sanity. Still do. You got a really lousy deal all around. (((CG)))

Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: Squeaky Tree] #249359
07/26/12 03:02 PM
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Quote:
I heard it also. IMO it's not a fog clearing question. It just reinforces the lust they are in. And it's much too painful for the betrayed to hear.


It might be painful to hear this answer, but the WS is not the only one who needs to wake up in this scenario. Hope can be crippling in it's own way. I'd rather take the quick and painful truth, than waste away with hope and be picked down to the bone with lies and broken promises.

If I heard "the rest of my life with OW"...what I would truthfully hear is a man whose biochemical infatuation had not degraded long enough for him to see the ridiculousness of that fantasy. I would understand the futility of expecting genuine reconciliation until reality could break through and I would end contact and let him find out just how "happy" he really is.

How many times have you seen a WS trade "down", but they can't see it until they've moved far enough along to ditch the beer goggles. That answer...is the answer of drunk.

This is perhaps a question best timed once conflict has entered the affair via exposure, confrontation, loss, demands of affair partner, etc. As the truth rises to the top, the happy ever after dissolves with it. Impatience and conflict gives the affair partner beaucoup opportunity to become unstable and desperate....and boy do they! To me...that's when the question is most likely to blow away some of that fog.



"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: star*fish] #249379
07/26/12 05:27 PM
07/26/12 05:27 PM
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I'm curious as to how allowing the wayward another 30/60/90 days to screw their affair partner fits into an "enough is enough" thread.

Wait, I know the answer...it doesn't.

Waiting out a wayward spouse while they finish with their sickening behaviors is about as far away from "enough is enough" as possible. Giving the wayward an ultimatum..."him/her or divorce" is more in keeping with "enough is enough."

Waiting out an affair is simply Plan Doormat. Winning a wayward back is Plan Doormat.




Don't go shaking the [Bleep!] tree and expect an angel to fall out.

Liars lie and cheaters cheat...know it and don't be surprised. Protect yourself.

Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: Medc] #249399
07/26/12 08:12 PM
07/26/12 08:12 PM
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Lil Offline OP

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This is what I have come up with, using ideas from here:

Quote:
Learn and set your boundaries, with the most important one being a respectful, yet firm stance of "I will not share my spouse". Respectful means do not make this request with an implication of punishment - as in "do this or I will make you suffer". Simply state that this is too painful an experience to endure, and if the affair is not ended, you will seek either a separation or divorce.

"Spouse, you have two choices:
1. End the affair instantly and work with me towards restoring our marriage, or
2. I will file as I will not be in a marriage where there is a third party.
I love you and I love our children and I would prefer option 1, but know that I will vigorously pursue option 2 if you don't terminate the relationship with your affair partner instantly."

Instantly can be slightly flexible. While the actual emotional and sexual relationship to the OP must cease, stopping all contact can be more tricky.The WS can take a few days to organise around factors such as when the OP is a work mate, or is a safety threat. However this would only be temporary, and require much effort on the part of the WS regarding issues such as transparency, extraordinary precautions, and care and consideration of the BS at all times.

As a BS, do what you can to make option 1. the more appealing option in the interim. A faithful spouse can do a lot to make the marriage very unappealing, particularly when it affirms the unfaithful spouse's complaints. On the other hand, the faithful spouse can do a lot of stuff that makes the marriage the more appealing choice.

If the WS refused to end the affair, you must follow through. Filing, or even divorcing does not necessarily mean the end of a hope for reconciliation. It does however mean an end to the WS's expectation that you will accept the affair and choices they have made without regard to you, on their terms.


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: Lil] #249425
07/26/12 11:07 PM
07/26/12 11:07 PM
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I suggest the BS phrase it on these lines:

"OK WS, here are your 2 options:
1 - end the affair and we work on the marriage together, or
2 - continue the affair and I will choose to separate from you

I can't say how long I can hold option 1 open for you. Might be tomorrow. Might be 30 days, or 60, or 90. At some point, option 1 will disappear even if you later choose to end the affair, and our separation will be permanent."

I would not present the choices until you are ready to separate. At that point, I would not give them a window of time to end the affair before you separate. I would give them a window of time during which you might take them back after the separation has begun.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: Medc] #249467
07/27/12 03:47 AM
07/27/12 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: Medc
I'm curious as to how allowing the wayward another 30/60/90 days to screw their affair partner fits into an "enough is enough" thread.

Wait, I know the answer...it doesn't.

Waiting out a wayward spouse while they finish with their sickening behaviors is about as far away from "enough is enough" as possible. Giving the wayward an ultimatum..."him/her or divorce" is more in keeping with "enough is enough."

Waiting out an affair is simply Plan Doormat. Winning a wayward back is Plan Doormat.



I think everyone has a different processing speed and tolerance level for unresolved conflict. If you are a next five minutes person, then that is the boundary you should set.

My life experience is that when my legs get cut out from under me out of the blue, my first reaction may not, to put it mildly, be the most productive. I need time to process what has happened. I need time to stare into space and throw up and watch a piece of me die right there in front of my very eyes and grieve that death.

That took me about 90 days -- maybe more -- before I could lift my head and think "OK, what am I going to DO?"

Then the next blow, then the next, then the next, and you go under and pop up and go under again.

I may have a very slow processing speed -- we are all different. If you have a 5 minute processing speed, then 5 minutes should be your boundary. If you aren't interested in making changes to become a palatable, if not attractive, choice for your unfaithful spouse, then don't -- it will come off as artificial and manipulative and likely have no positive impact, or turn out to be artificial and manipulative and have a negative impact.

I am not suggesting that anyone play doormat -- faithful or unfaithful spouse.

Doormats do not, in my opinion, good mates make.

I see "Enough is Enough" as a matter of attitude, not time. You see it in more concrete terms -- you get 5 minutes to decide and I am not willing to change a single thing about my behavior to make myself an attractive option.

I consider my thoughts to be consistent with the stated purpose of this forum. You don't.

To no one's dismay, we disagree.



Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: LadyGrey] #249723
07/30/12 08:05 AM
07/30/12 08:05 AM
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Lil Offline OP

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Ok, I tweaked it a little bit more

Quote:
4. Learn and set your boundaries, with the most important one being a respectful, yet firm stance of "I will not share my spouse". Respectful means do not make this request with an implication of punishment - as in "do this or I will make you suffer". Simply state that this is too painful an experience to endure, and if the affair is not ended, you will seek either a separation or divorce.

"WS, you have two choices:
1. End the affair instantly and work with me towards restoring our marriage, or
2. I will file as I will not be in a marriage where there is a third party.
I love you and I love our children and I would prefer option 1, but know that I will vigorously pursue option 2 if you don't terminate the relationship with your affair partner immediately."

While the actual emotional and sexual relationship with the OP must cease for recovery to have any chance at all, instant no contact can be a little tricky. Occasionally the WS needs to take a few days to organise around factors such as when the OP is a work mate, or is a safety threat. However this would only be temporary, and require much effort on the part of the WS regarding issues such as transparency, extraordinary precautions, and care and consideration of the BS at all times.

As a BS, do what you can to make option 1. the more appealing option in the interim. A faithful spouse can do a lot to make the marriage very attractive and appealing choice. On the flip side they can make is very undesirable, particularly when it affirms the unfaithful spouse's fog thought.

If the WS refuses to end the affair, you must follow through. Filing, or even divorcing does not necessarily mean there is no hope for reconciliation. It does however mean terminating the WS's expectation that you will accept the affair and choices they have made without regard to you, on their terms.


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: holdingontoit] #249744
07/30/12 02:34 PM
07/30/12 02:34 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 768
Southwest
broken soul Offline
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broken soul  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 768
Southwest
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
I suggest the BS phrase it on these lines:

"OK WS, here are your 2 options:
1 - end the affair and we work on the marriage together, or
2 - continue the affair and I will choose to separate from you

I can't say how long I can hold option 1 open for you. Might be tomorrow. Might be 30 days, or 60, or 90. At some point, option 1 will disappear even if you later choose to end the affair, and our separation will be permanent."

I would not present the choices until you are ready to separate. At that point, I would not give them a window of time to end the affair before you separate. I would give them a window of time during which you might take them back after the separation has begun.


This is very similar to what I did when I discovered my H's EA. I gathered my information and confronted him. He confessed. I completely and totally flipped out (and had been pretty much flipping out all day). I handed H his phone and told him "You have two choices. You call that ***** right now and tell her I know everything and that it's over, and you never talk to her again, or you pack your **** right now and get the **** out of my life forever."

He paused.

I looked at him and said "I am NOT kidding. Those are your options."

He chose the former.

I personally could not have waited an hour, much less a day or more. But that's me, everybody's tolerance level and situations are different.

Re: Demanding an end to the affair [Re: Medc] #305263
07/08/13 10:02 PM
07/08/13 10:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 37
J
jane2503 Offline
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jane2503  Offline
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J
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 37
I understand the Plan Doormat stuff.

How about this situation..

The BS will not be taking it easy as well, the boundaries will be clearly laid out

But would it help to stand aside and watch the Bubble bursting and the Fog clearing on its own?
Especially when the spouse wants the family and kids, but cannot let go of the OW overnight...

Would this be considered as a Doormat reaction or a Patient wait till the fog clears out..

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