As NOT to thread jack elsewhere, let's discuss or learn POJA.....

Not

Ps....yes, I've only STARTED the thread as I'm running out the door.....if others don't beat me to it, I'll outline the basics later.....

Well..guess I'll put my .02 in.

POJA, or Policy of Joint Agreement as outlined on MB, is an agreement between spouses that says: Never do anything without enthusiastic agreement from your spouse (lest it create resentment, etc.) Negotiation is encouraged. If negotiation doesn't produce POJA, nothing is done.

It's discussed quite a bit in the LB book.

Is there a similar concept with DB? Just wondering.

If I remember right, Dr. H coaches the spouse who wants something to approach the other spouse with, "How would you feel about..." This tells the spouse that their opinion matters and spurs negotiation.

I like to think about POJA all the time and I have got to a point where I feel guilty if I don't use it (even with the thing that about meals that OH mentioned in the other thread)....

the thing is with POJA that once you do practice it lots, you kind of don't need to use it, although you still do.... Having had the meal issue before, we might now agree that "i'll get that for tea, unless there is a special offer on, or, we will always have whatever is on offer"

Once you and your partner know you are looking to each other for their opinion on things you both begin to share more and POJA just happens rather than having to be really worked at, it just becomes habit....

Toook me a long time and I think I do get it.... there are still things that we are still working on: whether or not we see if Christianity is something ofr our family; but that is major, major stuff and can't be POJA'd overnight but we both respect each others opinions because we now share so so so many other trivial and slightly larger decisions....

I think POJA and RH go hand-in-hand. You get the steak, it's not at your souse's expense. You get home, and if bargain-hunting is big for you, then you share your happy find. Otherwise, you guys may not remember until it's on the table. Usually someone say, "This is great!" Confirmation that it wasn't at anyone's expense.

Yep...POJA...the good ole' POJA LOL!

Learning that was ROUGH...but after awhile it became second nature.

I like the concept. The problem, although not the fault of anyone, nor a flaw in the design, is that it - like everything else - can be misused to control.

In my marriage, I worked my butt off with the POJA. I adhered to the results. He didn't, and didn't submit what he wanted to do to the POJA process at all. The result: anything I wanted to do was modified to be acceptable to him, and he did anything he wanted to whether or not it was acceptable to me.

I LOVE the POJA - even when I had a H who refused to even entertain the idea of it, let alone follow it.

Here's why: It just makes sense to me.

I'd like to bring up one key time when I think it shines: When you can't agree. What that means is ~~ if it's doubtful, don't do it.

So, when you're looking at a big decision in particular - if you both can't enthusiastically agree - don't do it.

Not to say there haven't been slips along the way in my marriage, where we do use it. My H once applied for a loan without talking to me about it first, and you can bet he heard about that! That was not the fault of the POJA, though. Just human error.

I can see what AR is saying, too. My ex used it to control by not agreeing - therefore stopping the process. See, says he, we can't agree so now you can't do it, can you? (He might was well have added: Nah, nah, nah with his fingers in his ears and his tongue sticking out)...

Ah POJA, a stumbling block in early recovery, a blessing for us now

We had the normal discussions about it to start "Can't I even buy a pie at the dairy without your permission?!?" What if this, what if that....

The supermarket exercise was really good for us. Helped raise points like what if DH wants product x and I dont actually care either way, is that poja?

Once we got the hang of it, we POJA'd some stuff in advance... taking the supermarket idea of meat on special, yes buy it, save money today. DD14 falls over in town and rips her shorts - yes buy some new ones immediately! DH forgot his lunch - yes, go buy a pie

Small purchases under $100, yes, up to personal digression. Thats one purchase under $100 a day thanks, not 5

Bigger objects - yeah still an issue for us. I have a hideous green bathroom that will be staying a hideous green bathroom for some time because we have yet to of come to a POJA on it. Status quo might be ugly, but at least we're not fighting about it.

We've not yet had a real problem with POJA but we've always tended to agree on a lot of things anyway.

I thought my H's IB would hinder us doing POJA but since he's stopped all that, it sort of happens naturally and we don't even realise we're doing it now.

I think, IMVHO, that IB has to go and you have to be working as a team for POJA to work properly.

I like POJA. My wife and I have been using it for awhile before we knew it was termed "POJA". We used the "Hey...is it cool if I/do you mind if we/how do you feel about" wording to most of the stuff we do.

Bump

Like many of the things on MB, it's a concept that does have some good elements, but has pitfalls, especially when implemented as expressed

Taken to this extreme, from my perspective it is an unhealthy enmeshment.

Now, I do agree that in any conflict negotiation is crucial. It is also important to have an outcome that does not represent a compromise of either partner's needs. In practice, however, it seems to be mostly applied to particular positions rather than needs. There are almost always many different alternatives that address the needs, while typically only one that addresses a particular position. By focusing the negotiation on needs rather that positions, it is far more likely to arrive at a mutually satisfactory outcome - i.e. one that addresses the needs of both without compromise. And if one's need in the area in question is 100% addressed, there is no reason not to be "enthusiastic."

It seems not uncommon that one spouse is not on board with it. To that, there is an empowering approach I espouse called an Impact Statement. But that is another topic altogether.

POJA isn't really a negotiating tool and can't resolve conflicts. It's intended to be a a way to avoid taking actions that lead to resentment and is meant to prevent one sided compromise. You get what you want and I get what I don't want, even if I get to be selfish at a later date.

Couples tend to seek compromise by trading something one wants in exchange for the other getting something in return. The problem is that it seldom actually works that way in real life. What actually happens is that one ends up being hurt while the other "wins." Even if the reverse takes place later, the score might be even but both have been hurt or have sacrificed something and resentment is the typical result.

When both are working from the same dynamic, not wanting to win at the other's expense and so damaging the relationship, then POJA can be applied to find a win-win answer to the question at hand. If either would rather win than avoid hurting the other, then POJA has zero chance of success.

What it can do is really little more than reminding both to avoid Independent Behavior. IB isn't doing things by yourself or on your own and it isn't simply failing to check in with each other before doing everything. It is rather doing things as if it doesn't affect your spouse or more often, as if your spouse doesn't matter. If POJA is too restrictive it's likely the relationship is already in trouble. If one is controlling or must win at the expense of the other, there are probably other things that are broken.

It helps to remember the context in which POJA was developed, that is, affair proofing the marriage. In that context it is supposed to prevent either spouse from doing things in secret that make an affair more likely (secretive double life sort of things.) It isn't designed to negotiate what car to buy but if you buy a car on your own and your spouse hates the car, you probably need to look at why you thought that was a good idea in the first place.

Compromise isn't a bad thing if both get something, which is the heart of seeking win-win. If both spouses are only seeking self gratification, it's because the relationship is already damaged (or never really built up.)

Again, context matters in Harley's model. His premise is that when we feel connected and satisfied with the state of the marriage, we negotiate in good faith and want our spouse to be happy. If we are dissatisfied but still connected, we are unwilling to give in because we only want our own satisfaction. The worst case is no longer feeling connected because then the second you feel connected, you want more to be satisfied. Harley's terms are Intimacy(connected and satisfied), Conflict (connected by dissatisfied) and withdrawal (Disconnected) POJA really only works in Intimacy when you feel connected and want to make your spouse happy. It's a way to stay that way instead of a path to getting there.

Hi Lil, Mark, and Fiddler,

I asked a question on another thread I can't link about the differences between justifiable concern and destructive worry. I was wondering if POJA can be a positive factor when one spouse thinks action might be needed to avoid a disaster and the other thinks the spouse is expressing unnecessary fear.

I've ordered a new book on communication and hope to glean relevant information on many aspects of relationship communication.

Thanks to Lil for bumping this thread last spring and for your insights, Fiddler and Mark.

Ace

Just when you think you're out, they pull you back in...

I'll reply where the question was asked...

Thanks for your answer over dere........

You betchya...