Note: Please don't take offense, OH. I love you dearly; I'm just frustrated that you're still in the same spot. Maybe I'm so frustrated because I, too, am in the same spot, having let my weaknesses rob me of my cajones.

That said, I agree OH needs to make up her mind and stick to it, and that her inability to be (or fear of being) firm about what she needs is keeping them from reaching any sort of resolution.

I do understand depression as I've been battling it for over 10 years, with the off and on (currently on) help of medication; it's only because of my stubbornness that I am still alive.

I simply disagree that he doesn't understand what's going on. He has a severe issue of wanting to be a big player and being unwilling to be anything but that - most likely out of low self-worth and toxic shame (fear of being found wanting). And the fact that he has been financially supported by OH for over 10 years has allowed him to AVOID the reality that anyone else crippled by depression would have had to face by now.

Which is why I have, over and over, asked her to consider leaving him just SO he can be forced to get the help he needs, if only for financial reasons. She stood up to him once, and as I recall, the one thing she asked of him (which many of us asked her to reconsider) was just to talk to SH. Not to work to get better, not to attend X many therapist visits, not to get on ADs, but just to talk to SH. I'm sure she was hoping that her DH would 'get it' like so many other people seemed to.

So, easy enough. He agreed to it. She'd back down and all he had to do was talk to SH. He did. She backed down. He got what he wanted, which was to get her to leave him alone and keep supporting him so he didn't have to brave the real world.

I'm not saying he was specifically thinking those words. Between his depression and his drinking, probably not a lot of clear thinking going on. But he's on autopilot and does what works for him. As OH knows, only by HER changing at this point, will HE change, out of necessity.

So, if all OH is willing to do is tell him "I'm going to leave you by Dec. 31 if you don't start attending weekly therapy" - I'm fine with that. At least it's a change. He'll never get better without some form of change. At least we can agree on that.

Since he is a stay at home dad, it is very unlikely (unless he is a drunk) that the children would be moving out of the house. OH could also be on the hook for spousal support.

It is not as simple as her leaving and taking the kids.

These things need to be worked out ahead of time.

Cat, I don't know the guy to judge his motivations. I do know he is depressed and do know how that disease is frequently minimized.

BTW, I was thinking a much shorter time frame for her "boundary." I think 30 days would be more than enough.

Any takers on the sick woman? How would we respond to her??? How is this different? Is depression a lesser disease? I know that before I was trained, I would not have given it the weight it deserves.

I seem to recall that OH says that he does actually very LITTLE SAHD activities; she has often complained that she has to work full-time and often two jobs, AND come home and take care of the kids and get them to their appointed rounds.

She says she has already lined up a place for her and the kids to move to.

Not from me, as I am in solidarity with him when it comes to depression. As I said, if I wasn't so stubborn (or fearful of upsetting my DH), I would have been coming home every day and going to straight to sleep. Even now, however, I'm starting to succumb to that.

Works for me.

It depends on what the sick woman does. Does she expect to be waited on hand and foot or does she try to minimize her impact on people as a general rule? Does she work with the doctors to find ways to minimize the disease's effect on her life and on her role as mother and wife?

My best friend (whose husband was forcibly retired recently due to Agent Orange mental issues) has now been diagnosed with some obscure neurological disorder wherein she is tired and in pain, or has headaches, or low stamina...just a host of issues. On the one hand, I'm very supportive of her and want to help her. On the other hand, she treats her husband like a slave. He cannot leave the house for more than an hour or two because she doesn't want to have to watch the kids. She 'never knows' when she will need to lay down. He does ALL the housework, ALL the cooking, ALL the childrearing except for an occasional mother/daughter fun-type thing she participates in. All the shopping. All the getting kids where they need to go. In the last 2 years, I've seen her for maybe 10 hours total. The rest of the time she is lying in bed resting or napping. He continues to support her unconditionally, but he has literally given up his life. And she has let him. I ask her what she's doing to try to fight the disease, or at least reach some sort of level where she can at least participate in the family, and she just says she's working out a good arrangement of meds.

Now, I love her and totally support her. But after two years of watching her not even feel guilty for what has happened to her family, I'm starting to feel a little...used. For me, for her family, and especially for her husband. He tells me that she's supposed to be exercising, and getting out of bed, and other things to keep the disease from getting worse. But she chooses not to.

Maybe that's why I have such an issue with OH's husband. He COULD address his own issues. Lord knows the two of them have discussed them enough. And his standard response to her is to sling any comment back on her and ream her out because 'he has it worse.'

I know what depression does. Firsthand. I even know what depression and alcohol does firsthand together. But it has never impaired my mind so much that I am not aware of the people around me.

Maybe he IS unaware of the people around him. All the more reason for her to take a stand and effect a change whether he's willing or not.

OH, sorry for TJing, so to speak.

Ok, this is just a vent. I'm posting it here so I don't go screaming out my front door.

Him: Do you know XYZ? I think they live on such-and-such a street.

ME: No, name does not sound familiar.

HIM; You sure? XYZ, think they live on such-and-such.

ME: No, why.

HIM: No answer

ME: Why?

HIM: I got an email from him, something about a basement remodel. (gets up to look in phone book). Yes, XYZ and his wife ABC on such-and-such.

ME: No, I don't know them.

HIM: I can't place where I know him from.

ME: Football?

HIM: Never mind.

HIM: Maybe it's the job networking group.

ME: And he wants you to look at his basement? That's cool.

Him: Never mind. Don't worry about it. All I wanted to know is if you knew them and you don't so drop it, ok?


***

So this effectively shuts me down. I can't even ask him why he wanted to know if I knew them (maybe he wanted to know if I'd passed along his name, but once I said I didn't know them, it didn't matter?) I just don't like getting shut down like that. If I say anything about it, it starts a fight.

Ok, I know I'm stuck in this horrible situation of my own making. And I know you all are waiting for me to "grow a pair" and do something about it.

I was just posting the above convo because I'm ready to scream at him and I don't want to do it...so I thought I'd vent it here.

It sounds to me like he asked you because he wanted information to help himself; i.e., to him, you are a...tool. You either make his life better (knowing the guy) or you don't. If you don't, he doesn't want to waste time on you, because it isn't helping him.

I had a HUGE one with my DH yesterday. Complicated, but the bottom line was that a 3-way tiff between me, him, and this woman we're going into business with ended up with him calling ME and saying 'what did you say to HER? WHY did you call her a liar? etc.'

Now, this woman operates everything in her life by putting people down; calling them liars; telling them they have no value; i.e., putting HERSELF above them. In her mind, she IS above everyone. But 'liar' is one of her favorite words. And she told him I was screaming at her at the 'top of my lungs.' Aside from him of course, I have yelled at exactly one person in my entire life; he knows that.

Anyway, the first thing he does is ask ME what I did to HER? Not defend his wife, but blame his wife and take someone else's side. He even told me I should call her and apologize! I was fuming ALL DAY LONG. I'm always the scapegoat, just like your DH turns everything around on you. Once a ladder fell we were moving, and he pulled his back, and he spent 30 minutes cussing me out for 'never' being there for him, making stupid choices, etc. So basically, I am ALWAYS the one who gets blamed, who gets everything turned on them, who is not respected nor treated with compassion. Sound familiar?

You'd be proud of me, though. We had to meet up later and he saw I was mad and said 'What are you so pissy about?' and I actually told him the truth, rather than avoid it like you and I always do. I told him he insulted me and I didn't like it, and I surely didn't appreciate being told to apologize to the woman. He denied saying it! But then he apologized. One of maybe 5 apologies in 30 years.

So I'm learning to stand up for myself, like we hope you will get to, even in the face of certain hassle.

It DOES feel good, OH!

OH, it sounds to me like he answered the question. He got an email from them about a job and wanted to know if you knew them.
I don't see why you would be upset at this. What more did you need to know? It sounds like nitpicking to me.

If you feel the need to run screaming after such an innocuous discussion, I would suggest that your threshold is a wee bit too low.

I do. Because of responses like this:

He effectively shuts her out of any type of conversation with him. Any time she tries to talk to him, he gives such responses to shut the lines of communication, which he opens only when it is convenient or beneficial to him.

His question was about her knowing the people...she didn't. That was what he wanted to know. Frankly, I don't blame him for not wanting to chit-chat with OH right now. She has made it clear that he is a disappointment to her and that she doesn't love him. What is there for him to be chatty about???
And what was unanswered or said? I am missing that from the actual words spoken.
As for "any time" or "only when convenient or beneficial" I thought we were talking about the "incident" from today. Dragging historical problems into the discussion is a sure-fire way to derail ANY chance for a positive encounter.
I responded to what OH stated. She said that her problem with this discussion was that "I can't even ask him why he wanted to know if I knew them"...This WAS clearly answered. IF he had pulled some random person out of the air and said do you know so & so, I would agree....but the fact is, it was explained...he received an email from them about doing work. It is flat out nitpicking...based on what she said about today's discussion.

Medc, I do understand your viewpoint on all this. But you clearly don't understand hers. Everything you describe is totally logical for a person who shows signs of wanting to engage in a healthy relationship. But when you have spent 10, 20, or 30 years with someone like her husband, or mine, it isn't that simple. Or logical.

You say you communicated with her a lot so you have a better handle on what her husband is going through. Good for you for getting his side. And I'm the first person to tell OH - as she will attest - to get off her butt and change things on her end. But I will posit that you are falling far short of getting 'her' side. You keep telling her that SHE should be putting more effort in, SHE should not be abandoning him due to his illness, SHE should be less touchy.

For a myriad of reasons you nor I are privy to, their relationship is sick. And logical, simple solutions may not be the best solution for OH. Depression or not, he has seriously harmed her.

ETA: This is OH's thread, not mine, so I will stop TJing it.

I only know his side from what she has told me. I DO understand her side. But I also understand that in order for things to get better OH will need to change her communications with her husband. He is not capable of doing so at this time. She needs to either do the heavy lifting or leave (since we both agree that continuing on the current path is getting both of them no where fast!).
I KNOW HE will need to put more effort in. OH should expect it and deserves it. Heck, she already DESERVES it. But sometimes in life, we don't get what we deserve...when we deserve it.
I KNOW OH is in the RIGHT. I just want her to be happy and to see her marriage survive, if possible. Since she is the ONLY one capable of steering the boat right now, I suggest she grab the rudder or abandon ship.
Logical and simple seem to be in order right now...at least from my perspective. I respect your view and know that we both have OH's best interest at heart.

Sat down w/ him and went through this month's income/outgo. It is pretty dismal. I kept to the facts though...no editorializing.

Still, he said "do you know how this all makes me feel? I should be the one bringing in the big paycheck...."

I have to admit I just stopped him at that point and said

"I am only interested in the numbers at the moment. Here is outgo, which is larger than income. What plans do you have to help even that out?"

He pitched a hissy fit. I left the room.

However....

I'm not very upset over that!

Good job!

Last time I checked, creditors don't refrain from issuing bills simply because of how it made the recipients FEEL.......

And, if he wanted to take a stab at, geez I don't know, like maybe putting that budget back in the black -- as opposed to current hue of fire engine red -- he'd bring in ANY paycheck!

Sounds like you handled yourself well.

TBC

Ugh.

Forgive me for projecting. My 1st H went through a period after he messed up his career and literally could not get hired in that career again. He wouldn't flip burgers (even as a manager) because it was "beneath him". Meanwhile (this was before I was making the $$ I am now) we were some $600 short on the bills every month. I could NOT get him to see how much it was killing me to be thinking about trying to find a 2nd job while I'm having to put my baby in daycare because he wouldn't even watch her, and he's sitting on his rump.

And of course, then I go and marry #2 who has now been failing to contribute anything significant to the finances. But at least I'd become self-sufficient to handle everything on my own. Until of course he convinced me to take on further debt on his behalf. (Yes, I am an idiot sometimes.)

OH, not trying to t/j, just trying to point out that once they start this nonsense, you lose respect for them. How can you have a marriage where you don't respect your H? I will never understand how a man can live with himself sitting on his rump while his wife is struggling to keep from losing the house. UNACCEPTABLE.

Frankly, if I were you, I'd put it to him point blank that he needs to bring in x$ a month starting THIS MONTH, and you don't care if he sells plasma or prostitutes himself to do it. Give him exactly ONE MONTH to bring in that x$ or he's out the door, whatever legal maneuvering that takes.

Ok, I'm kidding about the prostitution.

Mostly.

Once again, I feel that people are ignoring the very real and very debilitating disease of depression.

Much of the advice being offered here would be great IF this disease was not part of the equation. It is and I guarantee that ANY professional, remotely familiar with depression would STRONGLY advise against such action.

Medc, you'd be wrong.

I have suffered from depression a good deal of my life. It is not, and should not, be an excuse for p*ss-poor behaviour.

He is blatantly refusing to do *anything* to try and keep this family in the black. They're going to end up losing their home, vehicles, and who knows what else because he won't step up. And when OH tries in every way she knows to talk about her feelings, he treats her abusively.

Alcoholism is also a disease. It is a biological shift in cellular chemistry. Are we to stay with alcoholics who are running the family into the poorhouse, and/or being abusive?

He refuses to seek help for his depression. He refuses to work with OH to improve their marriage and family.

When does **OH** get to be depressed and say "screw it" in re: to her finances and family obligations? Answer: she doesn't, because she doesn't have time or that luxury. Why does *he* have the luxury to wallow in it?

Alcoholism and depression are entirely different.

It is a REASON for an inability to act and handle business in some cases. You obviously were able to work through your problems. There are many variables that come into play with depression. There are decidedly different levels of depression.

Having been trained to understand depression....having lived through it for a period myself and knowing that pharmacological and talk therapies are often times ineffective, I know that mental health professionals would balk at much of what has been said here. I have a rather unique perspective on this stuff. I worked as a police officer and would at least every other week take a body to the morgue of someone that should have, by the logic being put forth here, just gotten over their depression. I also worked for Pfizer selling Zoloft and inasmuch had to spend a lot of time in training and psychiatrist offices.

I don't base my views on giving her husband a free pass. Anyone that knows me, knows MEDC, gets that I don't hand those out freely. I can be very harsh on people not pulling their weight. In this case, we do not yet know if that is the case.
YOUR history of depression has little to nothing in common with OH's husband until proven otherwise.

OH has the right to say screw it and walk anytime she pleases. I thought the purpose of the thread was to offer help. That is what I am trying to do. I am using experience and knowledge to guide OH in a fashion that I believe to be correct. I am not going to use words that attack her husbands character until it is proven that his lack of motivation is not a result of this terrible disease.

I had an IC once armchair diagnose him as borderline narcissistic. I might have tossed that one overboard, if not for the fact that she treated him as an IC for a time as well (she was not treating both of us at the same time).

Additional food for thought to which I occasionally return. I really shy away from this diagnosis because the success rate of any kind of a relationship with a narcissist and/or a cure to the disorder, is near zero. But I have to keep it in the back of my mind.

Was he a patient of hers? If not, I would put little faith in the diagnosis.

OH, one thing to consider. When you decide if YOU want to be married to this man (which you have been on the fence about), I believe that you will start acting towards that end. Your actions ot date have followed your feelings.

OH, did he have an affair? I believe we discussed this on FB...but can't recall.

OH has said repeatedly that he refuses to see a counselor - either individually or as a couple - and that he refuses adamantly to take any more anti-d's after *one* didn't work. She has also said repeatedly that when she tries to share with him the financial situation, he shuts her down - many times abusively. She has also said that he refuses to take work offered him because it's "beneath him", yet he also refuses to take the load off of her at home.

What more is she supposed to do?

I completely "get it" that depression can be debilitating. That is actually the point I was making. You stated that you feel everyone here is ignoring the very real disease of depression. I was making the point that at least one of us is not ignoring it.

You keep asking what would our advice be if he had cancer or MS or something where he couldn't work, and why this is different. Most people with debilitating cancer or MS actually seek treatment. And are eligible for SSI.

I'm trying to figure out what you're saying she should do, without giving him a free pass.

I'd also like to know on what basis you state that alcoholism and depression are entirely different? Both are physical diseases, the only difference I can see is that alcoholics have the ability to avoid the substance that causes them problems.

This is 100% true. When she decides that she is DONE, things will start changing. But, she is still feeling responsibility for taking care of this man who is incapable by all appearances of taking care of himself. That's not love, and it's not a marriage. It's having a horny teenager on the payroll.

Her original question on this thread wasn't whether or not to stay with him, it was asking what the best way to get out was, without damage to the kids or to him.

Getting back to your original question:

KIDS: kids are suffering with the sitch as it is now, and it's only getting worse. D isn't good for kids, but sometimes it's better than the alternative.

YOU: You can take care of yourself and your kids. Whatever you choose, make sure it doesn't undermine your well being. You will be fine on your own, no matter how you end it.

HIM: There's no way to do this without causing him pain. Period, end of discussion. If that's your motivation, understand that it's not an option. *He* is not going to decide to leave you. You are the "leaver", he's going to suffer.

As to the options you proposed, I'm going to address them out of order.

c) No way. Asking you to continue bailing water out of this sinking life raft without a shred of support from him either financially or domestically is insane, and that's where you'll end up if you try to play this for 2 more years.

b) No legal papers means he can still ruin you. He can run up debt that you will be responsible for, and there's probably no legal way you can throw him out if he digs his heels in without a legal separation (if they're an option in your state) or D. You're putting your life in his hands if you do this.

a) Probably the best way to handle it, but you can't enforce it without filing some legal papers.

Here's what I would do:

Tell him you're filing for D, and will be asking that the temporary orders include one for him to vacate the home. That he has about 30 days to figure out what he's going to do. Then go file. You can act pro se, at least for the initial filing, if you can't afford an attorney. The documents should be available at your local library or the County Clerk's office. With the kids the age they are, and no property to speak of (you did say there's really no equity in the home, right) there really shouldn't be a reason to take it to court. You should be able to find an attorney who will review the final papers to ensure that the house deed, etc. is transferred properly for an hourly fee.

Bottom line, you need to do 2 things:

1) Figure out why you're staying. If you still love him, and still want to make the M work, then throw all in. If you don't, and you're staying because of guilt over the fact he can't support himself -- BTDT. He's an adult and needs to figure out how to take care of himself, you're NOT his mommy.

2) Figure out what to do about the finances - what would you do if he weren't in the equation? You've said you could live within your means in a smaller place, right? Then **do** it. He's abrogated his part in making the decisions by refusing to discuss it, and refusing to help financially. The kids may have to bunk up, and you may or may not end up taking him with, but you have got to plug the financial hole in your boat.

People can make a choice to drink or not. Not all alcoholism is a result of disease. ALL depression is a result of disease. A person is attached to their brain and do not have the choice afforded alcoholics. The distinction is huge.

If you want to know what I think she should do you just need to read the thread...it has been very clearly spelled out.

As for people seeking treatment with cancers...the nature of those diseases do not impact a persons motivation.

People with depression are eligible for SSI. I have suggested that OH press that issue.

This discussion has been going on for quite some time...before this thread on MA.

If OH wants info just on how to leave...here it is. Pack your stuff and go. The courts will decide if the kids stay or go with you. Be prepared to pay support. Simple. Easy. She KNOWS how to leave....her indecision suggest it is deeper than that.