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Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: Lil] #148947
08/22/11 01:33 AM
08/22/11 01:33 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 932
Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
Vibrissa Offline OP
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Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
I got some - sorry it has been a crazy busy weekend. I wanna post a bit on differentiation and self-soothing.

Hoping to post tomorrow.


Moi: 33
DH: Kenichi 33
M: 8/2005
DD 6 yrs
DS 3 yrs
Ze Blog
Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: Vibrissa] #150294
08/25/11 12:53 AM
08/25/11 12:53 AM
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Lil Offline

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Many welcomes to Dr David, and thank you for coming to Marriage Advocates

thumbsup


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: Lil] #150402
08/25/11 05:47 AM
08/25/11 05:47 AM
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Wow! Just Wow!
(reaching for my Kindle copy of Intimacy and Desire....)


Chrysalis
Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: Chrysalis] #150497
08/25/11 04:08 PM
08/25/11 04:08 PM
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I wish that Passionate Marriage was available on Kindle.

Best book I've read in a long time.


"I feel sad that I focused so much on his potential and so little on mine."
Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: believer] #150522
08/25/11 05:14 PM
08/25/11 05:14 PM
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LovingAnyway Offline
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Thank you, Lil, for inviting Dr.David. I had the nice experience of sharing with DH this news...and his reaction was excitement. Which is really cool to see. And when I said, "He's the author of the book we're reading, Intimacy and Desire, and he's in our area, too", then DH got excited about continuing reading the book together.

Got a dose of joy in that.

Sooooo...when we do begin I & D with the book club, are we going to continue on the same thread, make a new one (also titled book club) or what? Inquiring minds really want to know.

Thank you for the motivation injection - that's to everyone on this thread, too.

LA


The Paradoxical Commandments

Married 28 years/Together 30
Recovered 10 years
MALovingAnyway@gmail.com
Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: LovingAnyway] #150524
08/25/11 05:19 PM
08/25/11 05:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 932
Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
Vibrissa Offline OP
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Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
I would love to do another book club - I thought this was an excellent experience. I was thinking of taking a week or two off before starting another round of judging to pick a new book - unless everyone really wants to do Intimacy and Desire (which I am perfectly ok with!) In that case we can look at starting up again in a few weeks.

Looking at my schedule I think I may be able to head it up again - hopefully my training will be winding down by then.

What say y'all?


Moi: 33
DH: Kenichi 33
M: 8/2005
DD 6 yrs
DS 3 yrs
Ze Blog
Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: Vibrissa] #150532
08/25/11 05:39 PM
08/25/11 05:39 PM
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Yes, please!

(Hope you get well trained and wound down.)

LA


The Paradoxical Commandments

Married 28 years/Together 30
Recovered 10 years
MALovingAnyway@gmail.com
Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: Vibrissa] #150533
08/25/11 05:40 PM
08/25/11 05:40 PM
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Lil Offline

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I enjoyed this, however I would find it difficult to do another book this intense, until around Christmas time sorry.

I could maybe do one at the level of 5LL or similar


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: Lil] #150550
08/25/11 06:24 PM
08/25/11 06:24 PM
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I'll read anything.


"I feel sad that I focused so much on his potential and so little on mine."
Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: believer] #150589
08/25/11 07:18 PM
08/25/11 07:18 PM
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Not quite here
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Not quite here
Would love to. But I don't think we would reach POJA on me buying another book. frown (and I haven't got the last one yet)


Married 22years (this year) ~13y since dday(?)
DD17 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: Squeaky Tree] #150709
08/26/11 12:45 AM
08/26/11 12:45 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
Tell ya what, ST....If you PM me your addy, I'll pay it forward and send you whatever the book is...since someone sent me mine smile

I'll read anything too.

Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: herfuturesbright] #151673
08/29/11 12:57 AM
08/29/11 12:57 AM
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Lil Offline

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So...

are we finished with the Passionate Marriage, or are there any further comments/thoughts/insights?


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: Lil] #151685
08/29/11 01:56 AM
08/29/11 01:56 AM
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Posts: 932
Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
Vibrissa Offline OP
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Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
I think so. I had more that I wanted to post - but now I can't remember what that is... been sick this weekend and so my brain is bleh.


Moi: 33
DH: Kenichi 33
M: 8/2005
DD 6 yrs
DS 3 yrs
Ze Blog
Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: Vibrissa] #151695
08/29/11 02:21 AM
08/29/11 02:21 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
Honestly.....I'm still...amazed at how much of a difference this has made in my thinking when I'm not even having sex - baha! But really, This book was the topic at the perfect time in my life.

Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: herfuturesbright] #151915
08/29/11 05:53 PM
08/29/11 05:53 PM
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LovingAnyway Offline
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Oh, Vibrissa...Blech! I say to bleh brains.

Hope you're feeling better soon.

LA


The Paradoxical Commandments

Married 28 years/Together 30
Recovered 10 years
MALovingAnyway@gmail.com
Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: LovingAnyway] #151923
08/29/11 06:11 PM
08/29/11 06:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
LA makes me frequently giggle

Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: herfuturesbright] #151950
08/29/11 07:29 PM
08/29/11 07:29 PM
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LovingAnyway Offline
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GMTA, Herf.

smile

LA


The Paradoxical Commandments

Married 28 years/Together 30
Recovered 10 years
MALovingAnyway@gmail.com
Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: LovingAnyway] #152046
08/30/11 01:39 AM
08/30/11 01:39 AM
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Lil Offline

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I hope you get better soon too Vibs.

Overall I have had mixed results with the book. I saw some great progress in some areas, some big steps backwards in other areas. Having said that H is now on AD's so that might be a factor.

I still dont get hugged as much as I want, but I am liking myself more, and better, these days.


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: Lil] #152146
08/30/11 07:49 AM
08/30/11 07:49 AM
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lildoggie,
it is amazing that Dr. Schnarch joined here! Thanks and WELCOME Dr. DAVID!!!

(Maybe he can be convinced to have PM translated into Greek!)
Maria



Recovering from infidelity

Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: MariaK] #152949
09/01/11 07:53 AM
09/01/11 07:53 AM
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Lil Offline

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Originally Posted By: Vibrissa
Quote:
I gots to find me some ladies like you all!!!


Seriously gonna become a broken record - but read Passionate Marriage... it will change your life.

Women likeLOVE sex... if they don't want sex, often it's because it isn't worth wanting.

Bit of something I learned from PM that I felt rang true: We naturally settle for 'good enough' sex - we shoot for the lowest possible level of acceptable (read: just getting an orgasm if that) that we don't develop the skills to have GREAT sex - and after a while... life piles up... conflict takes its toll and you just don't WANT it anymore, because the lowest common denominator version of sexuality just isn't worth wanting.


well shinola, I have suddenly discovered this is true. The tireder I get the more I am likely to take the easy way out.How do you get around this when sleep is becoming a major issue for you?


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: Lil] #152967
09/01/11 01:22 PM
09/01/11 01:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
I could be completely wrong here....but I think that couples probably do go through "slump times" during times of big changes or extreme stress. I mean....does anyone really expect WSS to be the top priority for the first few months after a baby is born? Lil, you all have just become parents of a little one again, you have recently gone back to work, it's COLD down there right now.....You might have to cut yourself some temporary slack.

I love sex, and honestly, I would love to live in a world where it happened every day. I really would. But if my life was in the midst of big changes and schedule adaptations and all that....I would let myself off the hook just a bit from being 100% on all the time. At least temporarily.

Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: herfuturesbright] #154761
09/07/11 07:54 PM
09/07/11 07:54 PM
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What's the difference between differentiation and wanting my LLs and ENs met? Is it how I react when they don't get met? When does it crossover from healthy to enmeshment?


You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: Coach] #154765
09/07/11 08:04 PM
09/07/11 08:04 PM
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Lil Offline

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The short answer:

Differentiation means that you accept that you have EN's, and that you expect your spouse to fill them, but you equally accept they may not do so. Either way, their willingness is unrelated to you as a person, and says more about them as a person.

The long answer:

Differentiation is a somewhat awkward-feeling concept in psychology, unfamiliar to the American psyche; we know independence, and we know dependence, but we really don't "get" any other models of relating to one another. Defined by David Schnarch, Ph.D., in Passionate Marriage, "Differentiation is your ability to maintain your sense of self when you are emotionally and/or physically close to others," page 56.

While our current culture would say that "all perspectives are equal and valid," that does not mean that all perspectives are true. Think about the last time you were driving on the freeway and another driver cut you off. You probably got mad, and maybe cursed at that person about what a jerk they are. You probably felt personally slighted. Is your perspective that you were personally slighted actually true? Well, objectively speaking, the other driver had no idea who you are--your name, address, personality, religious affiliation, politics--so no, this wasn't a personal slight. In all likelihood, the jerk who cut you off wasn't paying attention to you at all, but rather was arguing on a cell phone with their spouse, fuming over a conversation with their boss, or otherwise upset about some situation in his/her own life. The act of cutting you off was only personal insofar as it was about the jerk. The wrong done to you had nothing to do with you, and everything to do with that other person.

I took from several different sources to answer this smile



AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: Lil] #154767
09/07/11 08:07 PM
09/07/11 08:07 PM
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Lil Offline

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Quote:
I believe that in humans a dialectic tension exists between the desire for connection/closeness and the push towards individual development and self fulfillment. I believe that effective couples therapy takes place when the therapist understands the importance of both attachment and differentiation and is able to integrate both types of interventions into the therapeutic process.

For many couples attachment occurs easily at the beginning, but sustaining it is difficult.

I use a developmental model of primary relationships in which an effective differentiation stage is essential to maintain the growth and vitality of the relationship, but it is often perceived by partners as rejection/abandonment. In fact, early differentiation often stalls and partners regress into hostile dependent or conflict-avoidant, stuck relationships. In American culture our images of marriage are often stifling and contain beliefs that are not supportive of an interdependent relationship containing two whole partners.

Discussion:
A heated discussion then ensued about the meaning of differentiation. It was clear that many participants believed differentiation to be a type of pseudo-independent autonomy that precluded any kind of dependence on the partner.

I went on to define differentiation as, "the active, ongoing
process of defining self, expressing and activating self,
revealing self, clarifying boundaries, and managing the anxiety that comes from risking either more intimacy or potential separation."

Differentiation evolves as partners:
1. Internally self reflect and identify their own thoughts,
feelings, wants and desires
2. Develop an increasing ability to express and expose
congruently more of who they are as individuals (without blame)
3. Develop an awareness and acceptance of the other partner as separate and different from themselves
4. Increase their ability to listen, hear and respond ffectively to differences with clear boundaries
5. Create an environment in the relationship that supports
desired changes

When partners in marriage are in the stage of early differentiation, they can appear indifferent or rejecting. They will frequently push their own desires at the expense of what the other wants.

Here is a case example of failed differentiation in a couple
with failed therapy as well.

The couple Jan and Jim lived together very happily for 6 years until the time when he wanted to get married and have a child. She was happy to marry but was clear she did not want any more children. She had single-parented a child from a teenage pregnancy, and now she was enjoying her freedom.

Jim always wanted children and he insisted children were a condition for marriage. She did not want a child because she wanted freedom to develop herself. Their relationship became very tense and they sought therapy.

Their therapist helped them realize how strong their connection was to each other. This therapist was unable to help them tolerate having some excruciatingly difficult differentiation-based discussions.

Jan was angry and believed she "wasn't enough for him." She
believed he was rejecting her and choosing children over her. Jim felt that her not having his child was a rejection of him.

Having the necessary discussions would have required enduring some very tense therapy sessions. These sessions would have been difficult for both partners and the therapist. If they had been able to discuss these difficult issues, they would have talked about Jan's taking Jim's drive to father a child less personally. They would have explored why he was so compelled to have a child and how he would translate his intense desire to father a child into the daily care of the child. Instead they avoided these discussions and had the child and her worst fears came to pass. He worked and traveled a lot and she was essentially single parenting again.

Their relationship deteriorated as she grew angry and vengeful. He became accommodating with the child and withdrawn with her.

Originally this couple loved each other and had a strong, secure attachment. By the time they came to me their differentiation had failed and enormous damage had been done. When differentiation is not handled well, it results in hostility, passive-aggressive behavior, unnecessary pain, potential marital depression, fall-out onto kids and possible divorce.

I believe that differentiation is crucial for partners to avoid compromising core values and beliefs, to work effectively with conflict/differences, to negotiate effectively, and to develop ongoing intimacy in a loving relationship.

The lower the level of self differentiation, the more likely one partner will:
1. Set other partner up to take opposite side of ambivalence
2. Project old feelings and experiences onto the other
3. Repeat negative transferences over and over
4. Stall out quickly in important negotiations

In the lively discussion that followed, it became increasingly clear to me that there is still much confusion in the field and that strong, independent stances by one partner without regard for the other are viewed by many as differentiation. Of course, this is not differentiation. Differentiation is only strengthened in an interpersonal context, when a partner is able to hold two realities--that of self and other. At times doing this means facing tension.

Original here


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: BR: Book Club: Passionate Marriage - Keeping Love & Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships [Re: Lil] #154770
09/07/11 08:14 PM
09/07/11 08:14 PM
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New Zealand
Lil Offline

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Actually this is an interesting topic that seems to not have a lot of info about it on line that I can see. I found this abstract from an article, but I am reluctant to pay for it in entirety smile

Quote:
Differentiation of self, need fulfillment, and psychological well-being in married men.
Bohlander RW.
Source

Department of Psychology, Wilkes University, Wilkes-Barre, PA 18766, USA.
Abstract

The contributions of differentiation of self and need fulfillment within the marital relationship to the experience of psychological well-being were examined in a sample of 95 married men. Differentiation of self, interactional-emotional need fulfillment, and sexual need fulfillment were each associated with higher scores on psychological well-being. Perceived interactional-emotional need fulfillment was identified as the most important predictor of well-being, followed by differentiation of self, and then perceived sexual need fulfillment. Regression analysis indicated that collectively these variables accounted for a significant proportion (27%) of the variance in well-being within the sample. Men who perceived their marital partners to be meeting their interactional, emotional, and sexual needs and who are able to maintain interdependent relationships with their partners were more likely to experience positive mental health. The results point to the importance of attending to issues of self-differentiation and perceived need fulfillment within the context of the marital relationship to facilitate psychological health in men.


There were a few other somewhat related things, but seemed to relate to mental health, rather than marriage specifically.


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


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