I finished the book! Being sick has it's advantage

I will do a chapter by chapter summery later. For now, while it is all fresh in my mind... I was surprised at how much closer I felt to God during prayer time since starting the book, and was very interested in the differentiation/spirituality chapter. While I didnt agree with all Snarach had to say on it, I was equally pleased that I was able to pick out what those were, and let them go, without feeling or thinking "well if that is wrong, might as will discount everything else he had to say".

I also have come to believe I may have had a slightly higher level of differentiation pre A. I dont know if it was the emotional over drive that lowered it, or the way 'I' interpreted our marriage programme that changed it. I suspect a mix of both. I know that emotionally I am still changing, hopefully to a more like before level.

Chapter 11 - 2 choice dilemma's and normal marital sadism

Most issues in marriage can be boiled down into a 2 choice decision "Is the pain of doing this, out weighted by not doing it?"

Often we think we have a choice between being anxious or not, but in reality the choice is just what anxiety we want to deal with. Spouses are not ever 'in the same boat, but in 2 separate 'boats'. If we want to steer both both, we may call this togetherness, but our spouse may call it 'control'.

It is at this point that many spouses expect the other to 'be reasonable' which in reality is asking for sacrifice.

This is the reason many spouses feel stuck in a situation because going forward means choosing. Maintaining the status quo offers the fantasy of not having to choose, or if you wait long enough, another more palatable choice will appear. The choice we ultimately make more often only reflects which anxiety was the least tolerable, or which option was the most expendable. Anxiety is inherent in growth and plays a productive role in development. The real problem is our fear of it.

We all have a 'nasty' side. Nasty as in a side that is bad or evil. We all have a touch of it, and control it to differing degrees. This can come out by torment those we love while feigning unawareness.

Marital hatred is normal short term. Sometimes we hate our spouses because we love them. That love has made us vulnerable to them. We deny the hatred because of our narcissism and because it makes us feel unlovable.

Monogamy operates differently at different levels of differentiation. In higher levels it stops being a ponderous commitment to your spouse or the relationship, and becomes a commitment to oneself. The relationship is driven by personal integrity and mutual respect, than deprivation or bludgeoning. Having an affair becomes a self betrayal.

Mercy F-ing is a form of marital sadism. It withholds the sweetness of sex, and makes it a chore to be got done with. People who accept mercy F's rationalise that it will do until the good stuff comes, but often it never does. Peope who give mercy F's, feel angry about their partners accepting the offer. It feels like all the other wants is their body, and they have the proof, since that is all they offered. Refusal also offends, as they choice is taken away and becomes a 2 choice decision of who is going to want. Often neither partner wants to be the pursuer, but rather be the pursuee. Couples may not enjoy playing with each other's genitals, but 'enjoy' the sport of playing with each others minds - mind F-ing.

I ordered 2 more copies of the book. One for me and one for my sis's BFF. While we were shelling crabs, we were talking about it, and she desperately needs it.

It made hilarious conversation for 4 women drinking beer! I told her about the open eyes sex, and she made a comment that it would be hard with your face in a pillow. It got funnier and funnier, but I guess you had to be there.

My niece LOVES the book and is getting a lot out of it.

Of course, I have no one to practice on, but the hugging thing has been very interesting. Before I never paid too much attention to hugging, but now I am.

It started with my son's GF's 4 year old. She hugged my son and I told her she was a good hugger. After that she came to me for hugs several times a day, and LONG ones.

My niece did a lot of long hugging too, and several times during the evening. The next day we went crabbing and my sis's BFF started hugging me, and did several times during the evening. I always hug her when I see her, but this time continued hugging her longer than usual. Then she kept approaching me for more. She is in a marriage that doesn't have a lot of affection.

So it has been very fascinating to pay attention to that. I think I've hugged longer and more in the last 2 weeks than I did in the last 2 years. Seriously.

I can hardly wait to get to the wall socket sex, but I want the right guy, *sigh*.

You know.....I never thought about the hugging in reference to anyone but a spouse/SO. Thanks, believer! DD especially has been "huggy" lately, and I could do that with her. of course, she likes to lean into me, and I like to let her

You know, it's funny. Schnarch doesn't really make any comments about how sex should be reserved and who it should be reserved for. It isn't an inherently "Christian" book, so that did not surprise me. And I would never just go sleep around willy nilly anyway. But one thing that kept striking me is that truly, TRULY intimate sex is precious. It isn't something that just happens because you picked up some hot guy and swung from the rafters.

My view that the only time one can be sexual is after "I Do" has altered, but the idea that sharing my SELF with another person should be done with thought and care has not. I deserve the right person and the right experience.

So do you, b.

I never thought of the hugging outside of DH either, but thinking about it, Hopper is a good hugger too, and would probably like more hugs from me.

Thanks for that B.

I have started to notice something. I almost hated to share it because I don't want to jinx myself. As I am focusing on self-validation, I am finding things more...peaceful and centered. Which isn't that surprising. However, I have gotten some encouragement lately from a couple of posts her or IRL from friends here......and I find that because I don't rely on it or hope for it or "need" it......it means more. It's more precious.

Wonderful paradox huh, herf?

I have noticed some wonderful things the last few days as I've been focusing on my self. Finally finished the last couple of chapters earlier today (I chunked DD and DH into the living room to watch Ratatouille while I read).

I contemplated doing my summary tonight, but, like lil I wanna get my thoughts out.

Two parallel ideas in the last few chapters resonated with me in a frightening way: hating our partner is possible even (and sometimes particularly because) we love them; when critical mass is reached the sentiment 'I don't respect you and I don't respect myself.'

Now, I love my husband. He is the most amazing man on the planet (I will brook no disagreement on this issue :P). But sometimes... sometimes... man I can barely type it. Sometimes I do not like him, hate him, don't respect him.

I'm terrified to admit that, even to myself.

Part of the reason I'm here - part of the reason I read marriage books and study and learn - is that I'm terrified of screwing up my marriage. Growing up I was never going to get married. I lived the pain of divorce, I wasn't risking putting another innocent life (my child's) through that. Until I met the man I HAD to be with. My participation here is prophylactic.

My biggest fear in every book I read is to learn that our marriage is doomed, that our problems are insurmountable and we will end up divorced. I strive, every day, to have a good marriage.

Admitting that, at times, I hate my husband.... that at times I do tiny things to tweak him, to assert my dominance and supremacy over him, that I commit small acts of marital sadism.... is like admitting we are broken... that I'm broken... admitting that despite my trying, I'm failing...and because of it we are doomed.

But I do these things, I think these things. It shames me but there is power in admitting that, in seeing them, in being conscious and aware of them.

It hurts to actually contemplate this.

I understand from whence this hatred springs, I can pinpoint the genesis of it within my upbringing and childhood. Interestingly it is intertwined and fed by my Inner Critic (to pull from another amazing thread here). Feeling this hatred for him is really a reflected hatred for myself.... the disrespect I show him is founded in the fundamental disrespect I have for myself, the violation of my own integrity.

Wow - I didn't expect to get so deep....

Among the other issues that struck me was that we are both more and less differentiated than I thought we were. In his description of couples and their levels of differentiation, my relationship with H seems to follow the pattern of the first couple entering the crucible: Bud and Claire.

I've always thought that one of the reasons DH and I 'work' so well is that we both constantly self-confront. We both examine ourselves and look to our own actions when things don't seem to be going well (and sometimes the other party doesn't even know things aren't going that well). I've lost count of the times DH has come to me and said "I've realized I'm doing x, y, or z and it's having affects a, b, c. I'm going to work to change that". Shifts happen, slowly and, most of the time, calmly (though we've been through a doozie of a 'crucible' these last couple of months).

I think that is why I've had some difficulty throughout this book as he describes 'gridlock' and 'crucibles'. We have them, we've met them, but they happen.... quietly. They're life altering and paradigm shifting, but I can only think of once that we've been close to that brink - and it's fairly recent. Perhaps it's because we haven't been married long enough... I dunno.

Finally as to spirituality and death. This didn't ring as much for me, probably because my theological beliefs are quite different from his, though I do think that the process of differentiation IS a spiritual one.

I've never really had a problem with death. I've always joked that DH and I have to die together, that way neither of us has to experience the pain of separation. Actually, at most he can leave 6 days earlier (he's 6 days older). Maybe it's because I have less to lose because of our level of intimacy, I don't know, but I'm not frightened of losing him to death. This is intertwined with my theological beliefs, but death has never been scary or saddening to me - not in a profound way.

I remember when my grandfather died when I was about 7. I couldn't understand everyone's grief... and this is the man who's bed I ran to when I was frightened in the night. But.... I'll see him again, I'm bound to him for eternity, as I'm bound to DH and DD. To me the grief of death has always been the grief of a momentary loss - to be reclaimed again at a future date.

Anyways... tons of thoughts....

I understand that. Since D-day I have hated my H more than I have hated any other person LOL. I have also loved him more than any other person. I suppose I hated him occasionally pre A. I can think of a couple of different times I toyed with the idea of leaving him, and one time I got close enough that I started researching divorce.

I 'think' those times in the crucible did teach me things about myself, I am not sure if they did anything for H. I can remember just after D-day wondering WTH was going on because I had thought that after confronting him, the A would wend and he would resume normal marital position. I guess he was in his own crucible of sorts then.

I am guilty of telling him that I had to die first. Mostly because after my response to being left the first time, I wasnt sure I would cope with a 2nd. I told him the other night he was allowed to die first. He responded that it wasnt like either of us got a whole lot of choice in it

Chapter 12 - Your crucible survival guide

Few of us enter therapy to change ourselves - we are usually seeking ways to change our situation, or our spouse. Changing yourself is hard.

Holding onto yourself is a short hand way of talking about differentiation:
- Maintaining a clear sense of who you are
- Maintaining a sense of perspective
- Willingness to engage in self confrontation
- Acknowledging your projections and distortions
- Tolerating the pain involved in growing.

Holding onto yourself allows you to pull out of negative interactions. Instead of matching your spouses feelings and emotional tone, you break out from the emotional gridlock. You do not go down with them when they are depressed, despondent or hopeless. This may be interpreted as a lack of caring of empathy, but NOT getting distraught because your spouse is, stabilises the relationship. You can connect without becoming reactive.

When you can control yourself, you have less need to control your spouse. You do not need to become adversarial, a behaviour which is not self validating. Holding onto yourself promotes good will although it may not look like that to your spouse at the time.

You may think you have a problem when your spouse wont accept you as you are, however we often have a distorted lens that we look at ourselves with. The problem is not that your spouse wont validate you, it is what gets validated is an inaccurate self portrait.

Constructing your crucible involves extracting your unresolved personal issues embedded in your gridlocked situation and confront them as a matter of personal integrity. This is done unilaterally without counting on your spouse to do likewise. Focus on yourself instead of "working on your relationship." "there's something wrong with our relationship" usually means you want to work on your spouses half of it.

Being out of synch with your spouse and maintaining yourself is normal. It is neither wasted or traumatic unless you insist on it. In order to do a better job of self soothing:
- Dont take your spouses behaviour or lack of change personally.
- give your dilemma purpose and meaning by recognising who current issues reflect the past and may impinge in the future
- If you cant regulate your emotions, control your behaviour
- Stop your negative metal tapes. Stop 'awfulizing' the situation
- realise self soothing may require you break contact with your spouse.
- use out of synch time effectively. Hobbies, visiting and outside interests
- Self soothing does NOT involve self indulgence, emotional regression, or food or substance binging
- Promote yourself.

Okay.....I'll admit one of MY fears as I got closer and closer to the end of this book:

What if reading this book makes me see that I need to give my M another chance??? I can't do it. Why do I have to think about that????? I almost stopped reading when I got to the whole crisis crucible blah blah blah part. Because I had determined I would be open even if it meant wading back into......there. I felt physically sick with fear......but I pressed on.

And I discovered something. But H and I have been "crucibled" more than once. My response for a few of those was to back out....to avoid it because I was afraid. Then came the ultimate selfish and cruel....my A. And after that I knew that we would need to move forward THROUGH them or....not do this anymore. So I began. And H tried.....he really really tried. And then he didn't. Or maybe him differentiated is this man he is.

Either way.....I am who I am, and part of being honest in that is NOT living in denial and as a shell of myself in order to "go along to get along." We are on divergent paths, and the only way to go in the same direction is for one of us to lie.

It was sad but oddly reassuring. He is not a cold fish...he is he. I am not a selfish beeyotch. I am me. And that is okay. And all of us WILL be okay. It will suck more first....but then we will be okay.

I think that is one of the consequences of differentiation. The reason it IS so scary is because it is possible that you lose the marriage. Instinctively we understand this, which is why we do EVERYTHING we can to avoid differentiating.

All of the examples in the book are of couples entering the crucible, differentiating and growing TOGETHER, but there is never a guarantee that that will be the end result. Differentiation can pull you apart as well.



I would say your's is a 'less extreme' case, herf. There is no abuse or blatant manipulation... but your self-confrontation and integrity will not allow you to live within a passion-less marriage.

Maybe his differentiation has brought him to the point where his integrity demands he accept his lack of desire.... or perhaps you are differentiating and faced with the choice to also differentiate or to lose his marriage, he is choosing the latter. Hard to say....

Either way - I think the peace you feel and the changes you describe in your life of evidence that you are doing what is best for you.

My differentiation is becoming a problem in my M.

Now that I find I cannot join in the emotional arguments and can only respond from reason, I am almost entirely in conflict.

Is that a bad thing?

Maybe it will challenge Flick to grow as well?

(I have bee following, and I still want to post my comments on the book if/when I ever have more than 5 minutes...)

Vibs - yes. It blows. I have spent most of the last 3 years making a happy fun marriage, and now we are at each other all the time. I stopped pursuing him re hugging and for a little while he initiated, now we hardly even touch, even in bed. SF has become non existent. I'm pretty sure I'm doing something wrong with the differentiation because I was not expecting this. Shoot we start an Alpha marriage course in 2 weeks and I dont want to go.

Jayne, I would love your input on the book.

I went to TPM website and nosed around the forum thee.Its not highly active so doesnt take long to read over the threads. Lots of very intelligent people with problems. Wonder if I could convince Dr S to come here and post a bit like Al Turtle, and TAM Chris have?

That would be A-W-E-S-O-M-E.

I remember you talking about why you stopped initiating hugs....But was it because you thought you were seeking outside validation through them? I don;t necessarily think there's something wrong with initiating a hug if we need one.

Yes, it became obvious that the hugging was outside validation for me - if he hugs me, he likes me and I am doing ok. However there was also a small factor of he knows how important touch is to me (highest EN, like super high) and also the fact that my constantly approaching him for hugs was pursuing him. Since touch is about number 20 on his list of top 10 EN's, he gives every impression of doing it to humour me.

Initially it seemed to be the right thing to do. He initiated more and I thought it was a good thing because I wasnt forcing myself on him, and letting him determine the level of hugging that was comfortable and sustainable or him.

I dont know. I have to admit I am unwell - again. Have been constantly sick of something for about 2 months now and its wearing thin. Right now I am all emotional and weepy and puking a bit too LOL.

I did note one thing. When I am at my sickest, is when I least want to differentiate. I like my sympathy seeking fusion cuddles

I think being sick makes a difference. Being weaker physically makes us need support - that makes sense.

I was just asking because sometimes I got into the cycle with h of waiting for him to initiate, and since it wasn't on his radar, I often felt starved.

Chapter 13 - Reaching critical mass

What happens when one spouse wants to move on, and the other won't budge?.

Marriage is made up of growth cycles (GC)and comfort cycles(CC). The role of self soothing and self confrontation correlate with these. In the growth phase self soothing is more required while self confrontation needs to be ramped up in the comfort cycle while the need for self soothing is low. The growth cycle is not about destabilising your marriage, any more than the comfort cycle is about stabilising it.

The CC of poorly differentiated couples emphasises reciprocity, soothing each others fears, and overriding concern for moment to moment security. However the dependence on other validated intimacy and borrowed functioning/reflected sense of self increases lack of intimacy, sexual boredom and gridlock. Emotional fusion causes spouses to feel easily threatened, ans likely to doge anxiety. They find the growth cycle threatening. Couple who remain in the CC until the relationship presents: divorce, loss of integrity, living death or getting into the growth cycle.

Well differentiated couples enter the CC in order to digest and integrate the lessons from the GC.The safe harbour of the CC make the GC seem more like a quest than a survival training. Other validation and other soothing occurs but they are not reliant on it.

No marriage can remain solely in the GC. Those who try burn out to fast. Time is needed for grounding and reflection. You cant be "working on your relationship" every minute.

As partners become better to self confront and self sooth, they feel less need to control each other. However in emotional fused couples, paradoxically when one spouse begins to hold onto themselves, the other feels controlled, and the tranny of the lowest common denominator resurfaces. The partner who wants to enter the GC has more control of the process because of their positioning in the system. The relationship can only remain in the CC by consensus. The partner who doesnt want to grow attempts to freeze the process by attempts to embroil the other in conflict or undermining the forward movement. Spouses would rather fight with the other than with them self.

Hallmarks of critical mass
- One partner can sense the other is changing
- partners settle down
- the tone becomes quiet
- distancer-pursuer oscillations stop
- the full picture emerges
-people stand up and take action
- partners talk straight
- blaming and criticism stop
- Anger doesnt escalate
- ultimatums are rare
- respect and empathy increase
- Spouse's do not lose hold of themselves and over react

Do's and dont's of critical mass
- Do repair the positive connections with your spouse
- Do pay attention to your spouses attempt at repair and dont take them for granted
- Do be willing to make the first move
- Pace your self so you dont burn out quickly
- Dont make commitments or deals on your way INTO critical mass
- Dont expect your partner to "be there for you'***
- Holding onto yourself doesnt mean you are right.


***another paradox. ironically poorly differentiated spouses are the most likely to demand "be there for me", but are the least countable on for reciprocity. When spouses cannot regulate their own anxiety, they are too dependant on soothing through the relationship to put their partner first in times of discord.

I sent an email, with the url on it.

We'll see

Great summary, Lil.

I wonder if people who read the book can give their idea of differentiation and being self validating.

There are some here that haven't read the book, and those are the beginning steps.

Those have been the big things for me. Self-validation esp is.....transforming my brain.

Lil, I hope you feel better soon. Everyone feels more fragile when they are sick.

Thanx Flo.
Had some RC today and we seem to be on a better footing for it.

Chapter 14 - Sex, love and death. (Final Chapter)

Differentiation is beautiful hard, an act of spiritual grace, and is not often graceful. Schnarch feels 4 elements are prominent during the process: heroism, generosity, spirituality and lack of shame.

He discusses the 'original Siamese twins - Chang and Eng'. They were born in Siam and joined at the center of their chests but a wrist thick protrusion. They moves to the USA, married, built separate houses, and maintained separate families. They had very different personalities, interests and temperaments. They devised ways to share in the burden of work, such as creating a 2 person plow they could pull together. Despite being physically fused, they also differentiated by ruling that each was only a visitor in the others home for the 3 days they resided there. They spoke for themselves, and refused to be a 'we', by demanding to be recognised as separate individuals.

Freedom doesnt come from getting away from your partner, it comes from mastering yourself so that there is room for 2 people in your relationship. You stop trying to control or limit your spouse to ensure there is room for you. It is not the freedom to do what ever you want because it is not about being stubborn, selfish or inconsiderate. Rather it brings freedom from tranny of the lowest common denominator.

Schanarch at this point, went into detail about his beliefs on spirituality and the manifestation of the divine, which I wont comment on here.

What makes us seek greater self direction, mutuality and spirituality. Schnarch suggests Spirit surfaces as our urge to differentiate. Although many believe absence of desire is the hallmark of spiritual enlightenment, desire could fuel spiritual and emotional development.

Some women (and men) with body embarrassment issues may feel that severe modesty equals spirituality. However an omnipresent being can see us everywhere, no matter where we hide, and can see our 'nakedness' whether we are clothed or not.

Desire out of fullness for your spouse, means accepting 'wanting to want.'Intentionality and free will are central ingredients for consciously undertaken desire which is freely chosen. This desire doesnt become satiated with time, but grows. Marital commitment to monogamy becomes a promise to ones self. Differentiated spouses

As people become more differentiated, thy may begin to morn the old them they are losing, as the new them is born. Many people who seek holding onto themselves, dont want to give anything up, and they want the path clearly mapped and safe to travel. Several religious/spiritual writings imply that A suggestion is made that the answer to sin is not self denial but allowing ourselves to desire more fully.

Loving is not for the faint of heart and relationships are an inevitable source of pain. Its not the bad marriage that are hard to bear, but the good marriages. A profoundly good marriage means the vulnerability of having more to loose. The end result of a marriage is one spouse having to bury a beloved, irreplaceable friend. Lack of differentiation means spouses hope to beat the system by dying first. The attitude is "you take the hit, better you than me". Having strength to love on life's terms allows you to say

Nobody is ready for marriage, being married makes you ready for marriage.

No body with anything to add???