Heya - this one is a bit late - again... but we finally have internet! So we should be a bit more regular.

Chapter 6: Hugging til Relaxed

Gonna abbreviate Hugging til Relaxed as HtR

HtR, in this chapter, is a tool that Schnarch has developed to explore and build differentiation. Hugging is a great demonstration of how couples actually DO communicate. We might not like the message, but we ARE communicating. Even while embracing we can create and reinforce a sense of distance between us and our spouse.



HtR involves 4 steps:
1.Standing on your own feet.
2.Putting your arms around your partner.
3.Focus on yourself.
4.Quiet yourself down (turn inwards to access your own resources to emotionally balance yourself and feel comfortable in your own body.)
It lasts as long as it needs to last and is done as often as desired. Often your breathing will go in sync, that isn't a good or bad thing, don't try to force it. It's ok to reposition yourself – it is actually mutually beneficial for you to reposition.

HtR can reveal a lot about your relationship and yourself. Having a connection with your partner requires you have a connection with yourself.

Paradoxically – by not leaning upon your partner, by each spouse standing on their own two feet they are more able to hold each other and create more intimacy. Leaning becomes uncomfortable – your support depends on the ability of your spouse to support you:



HtR is an opportunity to learn to self-sooth, to self-center. We cannot be taught to self-soothe, rather life provides us opportunities to learn it. HtR is one way to get that opportunity. It presents 2 challenges, not losing yourself to the pressures and demands of others while developing the capacity to stabilize your emotions and fears.

Anxiety will often arise – sometimes even after you've become relaxed. Anxiety is also contagious, however if you are centered, you can keep from catching your spouse's anxiety while maintaining a connection with them.

I am loving the notion of self soothing. Of not having to depend on my H for my emotional well-being. I like the idea of CHOOSING to be with him, rather than needing to for my own peace.

There is a statement in chapter 5 that really struck a chord with me:

During this whole move, there was a week where DH and I had to be separated. We called and Skyped occasionally. I kept forcing myself to miss him, and constantly asked if he was missing me. He really didn't seem to miss me much - there was one night he couldn't talk because he was playing with the friends he was staying with. I was affronted and upset - I needed him to be MISSING me. If he didn't miss me then perhaps he didn't love me.

I was shackling him with my love - shackling myself as well.

I find it liberating to think that it's ok to be happy apart - it isn't something you prefer, not a choice you'd make - you want to be with your spouse, but your life doesn't fall apart if they're gone for one reason or another.

We tried the HtR technique the other day. Strangely - for all the anxiety that the idea brings up in me - I was ok for most of it. DH was leaning on me for most of it and I found that pressure uncomfortable. I had to keep shifting and repositioning as his weight started to hurt my hips. I think he got frustrated by my repositioning and broke contact - I could have kept going though. I wanna try it again - never actually got to relaxed - I was too busy analyzing so I never got to the focus and quiet part.

I'm actually loving that this book isn't so much about sex - it really IS about intimacy.



I like this - to bring in a bit from the Control thread over in Troubled Marriage. When we need someone else to feel secure, when we cannot open up - when we can't self-soothe, it's like we are unable to control ourselves, and so we try to control the world around us. But that is impossible. We can't control our spouse - and so we feel insecure, unstable, un-trusting.

By self-soothing, WE are in control of our 'stuff'. WE are responsible for our stuff. We don't need another - and by not needing them, we are free to CHOOSE them.

As an aside - this thread has climbed to #7 on the Hot Topics list over on the side <--- pretty cool huh?

Gogo BookClub!

(that's because people think it's about s-e-x........)

No, it really is a good book. I am learning so much.

I used to LOVE Little House on the Prairie. I remember one episode where Laura had admitted to Nellie that she liked Johnny Johnson, not realizing that Nellie was recording it on the Victrola. Then Nellie played the next day at school. Laura was all upset and Pa went to find her. He said something that stuck with me:

Nothing bad ever came of telling folks how you feel about them. His point was that expressing love/appreciation/ etc for someone was its own reward. Their return wasn't the point. The point was the feelings YOU had. I used to live that way. I was the one who never hesitated to tell a friend just why they were such a friend. When I was engaged the first time I never hesitated to tell K what I felt. It didn't matter if he said it back or who called who the most or who kissed who first. I was so comfortable with my own emotions and so willing to share no matter the outcome that I was...open.

It is understandable after years of...stuff that I would hesitate. That I would feel as if I shouldn't feel, and as if I certainly shouldn't TELL anyone what I feel. That self-protection would be the guide rather than openness. It's understandable, but I kind of mourn the loss of that freedom. So I have decided to reclaim it. If I am self-validating, then it should become easy once again for me to share.....because the response to that sharing isn't the point. The sharing is the point.

I am not going to even ask if that makes sense to anyone....because it makes perfect sense to me

Whew, I finally figured out how to get here without following Vibrissa around.

I like the part where he was talking about how martial arts people are confident that they can take care of themselves, so they are relaxed and not REACTING to all kinds of things. Their safety doesn't come from trusting other people, but trusting themselves.

They've shown themselves they can respond effectively when the situation warrants. They focus their energies and act decisively when need be, rather than squandering energy reacting unnecessarily to things better off ignored or self-soothed.

I'm working towards that now.

HRF, you make sense to me

I agree about what you wrote about how control comes into this Vibrissa. Being attached to others reacting the "right" way is a control issue.

My BFF and her H are going to go one of the Schnarch's Crucible workshops! It's really expensive but she thinks it will be worth it. I'm curious to find out about how it goes.

Let us know, flowmom. I'm sure it must be good.

Awww you can stalk me any time believer! LOL!

Yeah, flow - let us know how it goes for your BFF.

And I know you don't need it - but you make a lot of sense to me Herf. I like your post.

Yeah well.....I should not have said it out loud. It's kind of being tested. But I will not cave. I will soothe myself.

I love both his books. Reading PM was a strong experience for me. And in English!! I had to read pages again and again to get some things. Some of the words he is using are not included in any Greek English dictionaries...

Self soothing, differentation, getting rid of hang ups in relation to my body, sex etc, have a lot to do with our "new marriage".

(Just kissing with our eyes open, makes such a wow difference for us!)

I am on vacation, on an island, when I get back home, I will re read the books and share more on what I think helps me a lot.
Ciao
M

Tried to go to counceling, he is crazy expensive. With tickets etc it was more than 20.000 for us

Maria - I'm IMPRESSED that you could read it in English! That's my language and I'm a good reader, but have struggled some with it.

Enjoy your vacation and hope to hear more of your thoughts!

Some hug music......

OK, I have to admit I havent been reading the book. No particular reason, just havent felt like it.

H made a comment about the book yesterday. He said "I dont like that hugging book you've been reading. I know it's about more than hugging, but why does he get to say how we should hug? Why are we trying to strive towards someone else's ideals?"

I have not initiated a single hug for days now, and he is approaching me for hugs, which is really nice. Guess it was true, he didn't need to come for hugs, because I did all the work. I try and centre myself for them but its difficult because they are short.

yep I get that. I used to find myself asking H "Do you love me" and like you it is a form of shackling. I need to accept it at face value. He is here, making a good life with me, is respectful and doesnt get too wound up when I have 'moments' LOL



made total sense to me. I read a thing donkeys ago about how people are quick to run down and not to praise. DD15 is very complementary towards people, if she likes their shoes, she'll tell them. And people love it, really lap it up, so I try and do the same. If I like a womans dress, or hair cut or whatever, I don;t just think to myself "Thats nice", I tell her.



I am still working on self soothing, not sure how successful I am being. I want to get to a point where I like receiving a complement, but I dont NEED to get them.
And then help DD learn to do the same.

Chapter 8

Mainly about 'vibes. Signals sent between people to: suggest sexual interest, joy, anger, sadness, pain. Sometimes we are aware of sending the vibes, sometimes not. Sometimes we can feel vibes from others when we are most definably NOT interested.

Touching without feeling.When 'feeling' your partner are you engaging body, heart and mind? When couple stop sending and receiving vibes from each other, they are touching without feeling. Suggestions to improve include slowing things down, less is more, add eyes open sex, focus on your spouse, and try for eyes open orgasm, although he says only a few people are capable of this.

Chapter 9

"where's your head at?"

What are you thinking about during sex, and are you willing to share it with your spouse? Mind wandering is a common occurrence during sf, and some people dont even notice it happening. Some use it to increase sensation or in the case of men, to reduce sensation so as to carry on longer.

The quantum model premise is explained as "what you think about during sex, affects how your genital function and whether you reach orgasm". Sexual mind set is divided into 3 categories: sexual trance, partner engagement and role play. Trance is defined as primarily focusing on body sensations, almost sensate with turn taking. Fantasies are mostly wordless visual or sensory images. Can lead to the other spouse feeling used and ignored. Partner Engagement is itself broken down into 6 levels of engagement, starting with sadistic focus of a sexual predator who sees the partner as a type of puppet, through to the levels where the partner becomes more than a walking talking sex toy. Role play is self describing

Trance is generally used by males, while engagement by women, although there are men and women who are the other way. Neither gender is entirely comfortable with role play at about the same level. Mixing and matching from all 3 sexual styles can help reduce boredom, and help develop strength to love.

Chapter 10

Doing, being done, and the F word.

I didnt want to mess with TOS

It seems I was right, when I queried at the beginning of the book if doing and being done is a taking charge issue. Effing is more of a state of mind than action.

Doing: moving into your partner, tasting their essence, ravishing them with fervour and generosity, sending them to the edge and experiencing your own eroticism in the process. Partner reciprocates by receiving.

Being done:surrender, union and the power of receiving. The level of intensity is high and not under own control, while not abdicating responsibility/just lying back and taking whatever gets dishes out if it crosses boundaries.

Effing:Possible without intercourse. Being in touch with your 'dark side'. Accepting you are a sexual being at all times, not just when the lights are out and the PJ's have been removed. Akin to the passion of first love, but tempered with maturity. Making out, grinding, biting, slightly aggressive. Removing your 'psychic armour, and being with your spouse. Aspects of doing and being done, as a part.

Chapter 7: Love and Foreplay Aren’t Blind, Unless You Insist on It

Intimacy and Wanting is hard - we all feel like we should want intimacy, but because it is so difficult we avoid intimacy. Intense intimacy is hard to tolerate.

Foreplay isn’t about technique and it always happens – and no one does it the same way. It is where you set the ‘tone’ of your sexual encounter. When the ‘meaning’ of the sex is the same, that is what we find boring, not the technique.



Shifting from foreplay to intercourse requires a decision. There is often a lot of 'pushing and shoving' in foreplay. There is signaling and counter-signaling. This is the manifestation of the struggle “You're not going to control me”

The lower your differentiation, the lower your tolerance for intimacy will be and thus you will have a larger focus on technique rather than connection. Eyes - open foreplay is a way to increase your differentiation.



Kissus Interruptus (kissing with intermittent pauses for eye-contact.) can help us to connect – to keep us present in foreplay. As opposed to tuning our partner, and ourselves!, out of our sexual encounter.




Chapter 8: Eys-Open Orgasm: Making Contact during Sex
Sexual Vibes are the sexual feelings we receive from one another. Often when we talk about alienation - being alienated from our partner we are talking about a loss of sexual vibes.
Sexual vibes are a form of self-validated intimacy. We will only send what we've validated within ourselves. After a point, if won’t be able to send sexual vibes to your partner if sex has become a forum for other-validated intimacy in your marriage. Sending vibes in an intimate relationship has to be a conscious act of will.
There is a difference between touching and feeling. We can touch without actually feeling one another.

Eyes Open Orgasm, like Eye's open Foreplay, is a way to keep you present and create intimacy with your partner. It is difficult for many people to achieve, but that’s ok. It is something to work towards.

Hiya 'lil - seeing you moved us forward, thanks! Gonna go catch up now

Haven't finished reading Chapter's 9 and 10 - gonna stay up late tonight

But I really enjoyed the chapters on keeping your eyes open.

A struggle we've often had in our marriage is that DH craves more intimacy. I'm more a wham-bam thankya ma'am kinda girl. For me, sex=orgasm. Don't get me wrong, foreplay is fun, I enjoy it and all... but I don't go crazy for it... and it isn't so much about technique (DH has amazing technique).

I think it may be an intimacy thing. I can very easily get 'touched-out' and just shut down. So sex has to be done within this little window before I shut down... because it quickly can switch from pleasure to actual revulsion (i.e. nausea, inability to breathe).

The problem is that DH craves intimacy. He needs it in sex - and I just have trouble getting there.

But, lately, we've been trying the eyes-open thing. Sex still doesn't last long- but we're achieving that intimate connection. He's been so much more satisfied lately, it's almost palpable. And it has nothing to do with the physical.

Hope that wasn't TMI.

Is it possible to TMI on this thread??

I moved the book forward because I started back at work today, and I know how quickly I end up becoming deeply involved in it over the calving period. I am up to Chapter 12, but didn't want to over whelm every one

and here I was thinking I was the only one

I think mine is more learned behaviour. I have the ability to get pleasure quickly from sex and more than once. Because for the last 13 years I have been working in a job that means I get up super early, and go to bed late-ish because of home commitments, I am tired almost constantly. So if I can get it hard and fast, I get pleasure, DH gets pleasure and then I can sleep. I'm not adverse to the 3am wake-ups but again, there is a POJA that I dont have to wake all the way up for them.

Since I have been trying the differentiation, I have noticed an enormous change of late in DH. I stopped approaching him for hugs and kisses and now he approaches me. A lot. He snuggles up to me any time he can get near me. I am VERY appreciative of his affection, and let him know about it Yet when I commented to him yesterday about the posted research on men needing more hugs and kisses than women, his comment back seemed to show he still believes I am the higher needing affection person.

I did the eyes open sex, it was different and less intense for me. I think it's because I am a trance person, so more practise needed, I guess. DH cant quite do it. I never realised how often he looked at his shoulder

I am not sure about the satisfaction level, but I do know we have made some big steps in our intimacy. We are both stepping outside our normal roles, with him being more affectionate, and me being more aggressive.

Hows that for TMI?

Hmmmm.....I am drawing on the past here....but it always bothered me that from the first "kiss with intent" until after sex, h never opened his eyes or looked at me. I always wanted him to, but he would't, and that bothered me. Going farther back, even though there was no intercourse, one of the things that made things so intense with my first fiance was the eye contact, the moving on instinct, the talking....

During hysterical bonding, h became....assertive and in command and actually did open his eyes and ride that wave of intensity. When we talked about it much later he recalls that time as the worst time of his life sexually because he was trying so desperately to "win me back" that he did things with which he was uncomfortable. I remember that being a blow because it was what I had always dreamed of. Odd.

Now that probably WAS TMI...but I think I need to process those kinds of things to put them to rest and to help me to see my own stuff.

Sex is easy for me, thank goodness.

Haven't had a partner since Nov. 15. This is the part of the book that SUCKS for us single people.

I read this book many years ago, and some of the intimacy-promoting ideas did influence the sex in our marriage in a positive way. Except when we stopped having it .

B, I'm not gettin' any either, but I am still learning tons about myself.