Lets add another definition of Validation to the list Validation(Schnarch)!

I am not sure how his definition differs from yours, fidd, but what the way I read it, he isn't defining validation per se - rather he's defining what most 'people on the street' see as validation: acceptance and agreement.

I keep thinking of a wife who screams "Just listen to me" and the husband who thinks he IS listening. He's hearing her, he's understanding her, he just doesn't agree.

I think that sometimes - our thoughts and desires make so much sense to us, that if the other person would just LISTEN (i.e. validate) then they would agree with us and do it our way. When they don't do that, instead of assuming that it is because their perception/life experience/ priorities/ whatever are different but equally valid to ours... no, we assume it is because they haven't heard us properly or don't understand us.

THAT is what I think he is getting at when he refers to validation really meaning acceptance. If my spouse thinks my thoughts are valid, then they will agree with them, because they make sense.

He does describe a few other types of validation in a later chapter.



Maybe I missed where he said this. I got the opposite impression in the intro where he says


I think a lot of the principles of this book are focused on the SELF. I don't 'fix' my husband, I learn to 'hold onto myself' and by growing myself and becoming more differentiated, the nature of marriage as a 'people grower' will affect a change upon my husband as a natural result of my changes.

Not trying to be argumentative,fidd, I'm just saying I don't see the same things you see (and that's ok!)

Ok gonna try to type up Section 3 tonight so we can proceed to there. I'm thinking Sections 4 and 5 could probably be discussed together so I'll be looking at posting those on Wednesday (hopefully - I'm on limited internet so I'll do my best)

But first - to go make my husband some Pineapple Limeaid!

I gotta say.....even though someone dear is giving me this book....I am now kind of afraid to read it. not because of the sex parts....but because I have been introduced that apparently this book is going to tell me that a huge part of what makes me me is flawed....and to be honest, I don;t think I can take that on top of everything else.

Please tell me....does this book really say it is bad for me to want the people I care about to think good things about me? Because if it is going to try to teach me that I should not need anyone or care about anything except what I think of me......I don't think I can do that, nor do I want to.

I haven't noticed it saying that, Herf. It says that caring about those kinds of things should be a CHOICE you make, not something you feel driven to do to achieve a sense of self... if that makes sense. You can CHOSE for other people to matter - and in the end that is more powerful than caring about others because you have to.

What I love about this book, actually, is that he makes the point that we aren't really 'flawed'. We are just at varying levels of emotional, human development. Where we are is ok - but we can be better, and he lays out HIS vision for how we can do that.

I'm totally loving this book - Herf... I think you will too.

Section 3 – Your Sexual Potential: Electric Sex!

There’s a lot in this Chapter, but I’m gonna focus on the Quantum Model and just mention some of the other concepts.

Schnarch compares his Quantum Model to the Quantum Model in Physics which study the dynamic variables that affect a system’s behavior. So to carry that analogy forward, human sexuality is made up of multiple dynamic variables what will affect our sexual behavior.

There are the basic biological elements: Arousal and Orgasm. Both of these are almost reflex actions. We reach a certain level of stimulation and we reach arousal, we continue that stimulation long enough we will orgasm. We actually need pretty low levels or arousal and satisfaction to get to orgasm, and many relationships seem to shoot for ‘good enough’.



So to go beyond a minimalist style we need more than the basic biological:



So

Total Stimulation = Physical sensation + Thoughts and Feelings

Physical Sensation, Thoughts & Feelings are the dynamic variables which combined create the total stimulation which we can use to propel us through arousal to orgasm.

I’m pretty sure this is what Schnarch means with his Quantum Model of human sexuality.

There are a few other topics/ ideas that are brought up in this chapter I found interesting/ discussion worthy. I’ll just list them out for us.

The idea that for us Sexual Prime does not equate to Genital Prime – our genital prime could be considered in our late teens, for men, and later for women. Sexual Prime, however, is achieved even later than that, if ever.

There is a certain level of anxiety in sex. Low levels often occur and can make sex ‘spicier’. This is what makes sex with a new partner exhilarating. However moderate levels of anxiety can completely kill sex. Often we don’t know how much anxiety there is in our sexual encounters, because we’ve become used to it.

He lists several ways to pursue your sexual potential (pg 95 in my edition). Within this list we can each find room for enhancement to deepen our sexual experience. We can find areas where we are ‘underdeveloped’ to explore. I found it interesting to contemplate this list and see where I could go, personally.

Finally; WALL SOCKET SEX!!!! To be honest it sounds pretty great… I don’t think I’ve ever had it… in fact, considering that when I read the description I had to pause and think “Have I ever had that kinda sex?” is a sign that I haven’t…. looking forward to getting to it, though!

Reminder: Do not post under the influence.

Hello,
I'm listening to Steely Dan at the moment and I reckon it's good make out music, not that Lil and I are making out just now



Enjoy what you do!!

wiser_now, I so appreciate your kind words - they mean a lot to me. It is so helpful to receive words of affirmation and approval.

I hope you've been able to get a copy of the book and start it - I believe it has so much valuable information.

I've heard of "body shots" and so this would be ....

Add to that saying to her in his own words what she is expressing and you have Validation(fddlr3).

Where my concept of Validation dovetails with what Schnarch is getting at is when each spouse does understand the other's point of view and still sees it differently. Validation is easy when there is agreement - the challenge is to stay connected with one's spouse when there is disagreement.

Acceptance is a key ingredient, but I don't see agreement as part of validation.

That's because he didn't - I didn't have the book with me when I wrote that, so was going from memory and confused it with some others. I don't have the book now so I'll likely muck it up again.

I was referring to Joan and Bill (or was it the other couple) where she read all the self-help books and he didn't. I had the impression that she had tried to get him to read them, but that wasn't made explicit. Likewise, Schnarch wrote that she thought Bill was "the problem" - which is a common point of view when dragging a reluctant spouse to counseling. That wasn't in this particular scenario, or at least wasn't reported. Nevertheless, the impression I got was they were each locked in a non-validating stance. Schnarch is of course pushing his own form of therapy - but I believe that it is entirely possible for one spouse in such a situation to begin turning things around by learning to validate the other.

I see that, and I do believe it is a very valuable way to approach relationships.

And that is Validation fddlr3-style!

HRF, if you're looking for inspiration for personal development and growth, I highly recommend Schnarch's book Intimacy & Desire. It's more recent, better organized, and more general in laying out how our individual growth relates to our growth in relationship. Having said that, I don't think you have anything to worry about reading Passionate Marriage

Chapter 2 is done, and I see I am behind again since 3 is summarised already!

The comment about '2 becoming 1' really resonated with me. It was part of my wedding vows, and for a long time I really truly believed it literally. I had this mindset where by oneness with DH, would be almost like symbiosis. Up until D-day, I frequently could lie in bed, tangled up in his arms and legs and not know where I started and finished - couldn't really figure who's limbs were whose. That vanished on D-day and never came back. I have yet to find a new level of oneness that matches my new beliefs in the statement, and what I know about co-dependency and enmeshment.

On pg 56 there was a small bit about choreography and how it seemed to stir people because of an idea of fusion fantasy, or what sounded a little bit like the Borg to me (you will be assimilated ) I disagreed somewhat with that concept, as what I find most stirring about large group choreography is that I know how much time and effort goes into making it look effortless.

The FOO issues, wow! I found it so much easier to relate to the characters in this section. I could see my family in both Bill and Joans'. These sentences really stood out to me:

'little economic or emotional autonomy'
'primary identity is as their parents child'
'need family to defer, to reinforce his reflected sense of self'
(brother) 'probably felt controlled by ... long distant phone calls'

While my belief that the first 3 of those describes my mothers mindset very adequately, I am aware it may be a DJ. The last is absolutely true for me.

The statement that really jumped out and yelled at me was:

Maintaining Separate Identity

I dont know how to bring this insight into improving my marriage yet, but I am very interested to see how all this links up in the end. Now to Chapter 3

Don't worry lil, I'm even further behind. I'm exhausted tonight but hopefully I'll have time to read tomorrow. I'll comment once I've read more.

Now I can't wait to get the book.

Lil, flick makes me laugh.

The rest of the spicy stuff I am thinking today I will keep to myself for now - bwahahahaha.

He makes me laugh too. Its just hard to work out where my pleasure of "yay he's posting", crosses the dismay of "you're posting THAT?"

It's ok, like us all, sobriety brings enlightenment Love you honey.....

so cute Lil and Flick

OK, chapter 3 read, and I am summarising it quickly because I want to get onto chapter 4.

Firstly, a question. DrS mentions the phase "doing" or "do" regarding SF. What exactly does that mean? I see that there will be a full explanation in chapter 10, I just want to ensure I am reading it correctly. Currently I am assuming it means 'person taking the lead/control'.

"lubricating better when giving than receiving...relieving the expectation to become aroused.". I had a conversation about this exact topic a few weeks ago with some lovely and insightful ladies. At the time I thought it was one of those high SF EN things I have but they agreed to the same tendency. At the time we didn't correlate it to the 'reliving of expectation', but I can see why it would be that way. If I am not feeling in the mood and know DH is, some quality giving time can seem to improve things on my end.

"Cellulite and sexual potential are highly correlated" LOL, I am glad to hear that, and I LOVED the reference to the Velveteen Rabbit. My level of cellulite, loose joints and shabbiness means I am becoming very 'real'

The wall socket SF description made me...angry, depressed, sad. Earlier I described sex before D-day as sometimes resulting in and that it disappeared on D-day, never to return. I believed it was caused by co-dependency and enmeshment, but now it my have been wall socket sex and I don't know if I should be striving for it again, or discarding it as a symbol of an unhealthy relationship. I am hoping for more insight as I get further into this book.

On a side note, when I was given this book, I was about 5 months into recovery and I just couldn't get into it. I picked it up a couple of times and had the same problem. Now its striking many chords with me. I am wondering if its because I am finally at a place where I am not focusing so much on restring my marriage, as improving it.

Lil - That sounds like wall socket sex to me. It happened to me a couple of times with my ex SO, but I couldn't figure out why it happened.

It used to happen regularly. Like once or twice a month.

So, I strive towards it again? Its so confusing. I really thought from reading all the co-dependency stuff that it was a manifestation of enmeshment.

Just googled the list hoping I wouldnt have to type it out. Crap.

Wall Socket Sex

-Time Stops.
Yep. Actually that happens normally LOL

-External reality fades; there is a sense of being transported to another place and time
again, normal.

-Your consciousness changes, so that, for example, separate acts blend into a single prolonged event. A million delights merge into one.
Just sounds like orgasm.

-Boundaries between you and your partner shift or cease to exist. You feel your partner next to you - without touching - as if your bodies are intermingled. Your skin feels open, your pores enlarges.
Used to

-Your emotions appear on your partners face. You see your essence embodied in your partner. He or she knows exactly how to touch you. S/he moans at the exact instant every thing seems transcendentally perfect to you.
Occasionally, but not often

-Your partners face "melts" taking on unusual or unexpected emphasis and character
Not really

-You watch your partner undergo age changes. You know exactly what he or she looked like in childhood, or will look like when older. You see the child and parent in your partner
Not really

-Profound mutual caring and joy overflow the bond between you. You're moved to tears, appreciating other people past and present, and what it means to be human.
Moved to tears, yes, appreciative of life, yes. Other people, no.

Hoping more people are going to comment here. I don't get much out of hearing my own voice LOL.

Chapter 4 was good. Less Wow! moments but still plenty that resonated.

-How can you tell the married couples in a restaurant? They're the ones not talking. Is this not talking 'icy cold' or 'warm and relaxed'. For most its a case of they are not talking because they don't want to hear the response - ie they already know what their spouse will say. Sounds a bit like a disrespectful judgement, but I suppose to an extent we can correctly surmise what our spouse will say. Doesn't mean the silence is a good thing, except in the warm and relaxed situation.

"The person with the least desire for intimacy always controls intimacy in the relationship as long as partners are dependant on validation from each other."
So true and not just in regards to intimacy. The spouse who least wants anything controls the thing.. whether that is SF, tidy house, spending time together. Refered to later on in the chapter as 'Tyranny of the weak'

Self validation intimacy seems similar to the 'Drive By' concepts of sharing and expecting no response back. 'It is important to me to share this with you, but I make no demands on you to reflect, or even acknowledge that I have shared it.' Its letting yourself be known, and still not succumbing to the anxiety that your spouse may not like what you are disclosing.

Self presentation - reflected sense of yourself, the most important priority is getting the response you want. Rather reminded me of how affairs start with AP's sharing and validating/reflecting/me too'ing. "Unfortunately it never provides the security and acceptance we crave because we know our partner never really knows us"

"It is quite possible for one partner to have an intimate experience when the other doesnt" Bit of an A-ha! moment here. I read a blog once where the H noted that sfter SF the preceding night, his W had thanked him for the SF and exclaimed how she had really felt the connection with him." He didnt say anything to her, but admitted that his mind had been elsewhere and the SF had been somewhat token. In the same way I have had moments of what I felt was intimacy, only to discover later that DH (bless him) had been humouring me, or saying what he felt was the right thing. It is my choice whether to continue to take the moment as it was too me - a time of intimacy, or let DH retrospectivly take it away. Have decided to make a stand for keeping it, as the alternative is too much like re-writing history.

Final take-away message for me:
"as long as Joan believes Bill is supposed to accept and validate her, Bill can "pull the rug" out from her whenever he doesn't like what she is saying".

Hiya Lil - I'm here! I'm sorry it's a little slow - that's my fault. I meant to move us forward faster, but the whole moving into the new house thing is draining....

As to wall-socket sex...is that something you'd like to experience again? Perhaps there are more than one ways to get to it. I know later one he mentions something to the affect that sometimes people achieve it spontaneously.

I see you already moved on to chapter 4. YAY!

I'll post a quick sum up here in just a sec, but one thing that I keep coming back to is self-soothing as a technique for achieving differentiation.

I really like the idea of self-soothing. It is something we've really worked on developing with DD. That girl is amazing. It is wonderful to watch her get upset, then calm herself and move through it. I really appreciated the story Schnarch tells about teaching his daughter to self-sooth.

I never considered that self-soothing is something I need to continue to teach myself. Having read this book and watched the interactions between DH and I over the last week I can totally see how we are Emotionally Fused in many ways - passing functionality back and forth between us. I had it for a while, then DH got it back, and now I'm getting it back. I had to stop myself and try to think - how do I break this cycle?

I haven't figured it out yet... But, I think, knowing that it is there is a start. I think learning to self-sooth, I won't constantly seek for validation from my husband (or at least I wont expect it as a precursor to feeling intimately connected to him) and thus won't be so dependent on him emotionally - short circuiting the cycle.... just thoughts.

Many of the things you mentioned also resonated with me.

Chapter 4: Intimacy Is Not for the Faint of heart
Schnarch lays out the difference between what he defines as two types of intimacy created by validation:

Other-Validated Intimacy which is where one shares with the expectation of acceptance, empathy, validation or reciprocal disclosure from one’s partner. This is contrasted with Self-
Validated Intimacy, in which a person maintains their sense of self-worth and identity while disclosing and has no expectation of acceptance or reciprocity (this ability is closely related to your level of differentiation). Like Lil, I see how the drive-by honesty concept is part of this: disclosing because you want to share without expectation of ANYTHING from your partner. I also see some interesting ways this skill can dove-tail with dealing with your inner-critic, as discussed elsewhere on this site.



He identifies several drawbacks to other-validated intimacy:

• You become more dependent on each other’s whims and less capable of true intimacy when stressed.
• Paradoxically hope that your partner has their act together while hoping they don’t
• Self-presentation as opposed to self-disclosure
• One partner can manipulate the other’s reality.
• Can lead to dependence

Another drawback – or thing to know about other-validated intimacy, is that it doesn’t naturally progress to self-validated intimacy.

Other-validated intimacy can lead to dependence and create anxiety spirals – where the emotions of one partner feed into the emotions of the other. Self-validated intimacy, on the other hand, can lead to inter-dependence.

Finally, there is the idea that by its very nature, Marriage is going to push you towards Gridlock. It is going to push you to grow (differentiate), separate (emotionally withdraw or even divorce), sacrifice your values, or sacrifice the values of your spouse. It is inherent in the nature of marriage as a system. I found this idea comforting. Gridlock doesn’t mean I’m doing it wrong – doesn’t mean my marriage is doomed, broken, abnormal…. It’s just marriage.

Gonna post on Chapter 5 tomorrow so we can get this discussion moving along – so sorry about that guys. Hoping to start on Section 2 Sunday and I’ll post on Chapters 6&7 then.

Okay....after V's last post I am sold. Starting tomorrow.

This book is really awesome, even more than I expected.

It is way more than just a book on how to have better sex.

I just finished chapter 2 (sorry I'm so much slower than y'all!) and I found parts of it that were very much like "How To Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It (HTIYMWTAI)", and parts that reminded me of "The Dance Of Anger/Intimacy", and parts that reminded me of "The Road Less Traveled (TRLT)."

To me it felt like "TRLT" and "HTIYMWTAI" were 100-level college courses, and this book is 600-level (grad school). It's like HNHN and HTIYM are treating symptoms, and this book is teaching the theory, the cause, the symptoms, the treatment, and the cure.

Lil, I'm sorry you felt like you were talking to yourself! Is it ok for us slower readers to post comments as we finish chapters you've already finished?

I was only kidding, sort of Go for it. Today was the first time ever I beat Vibs, and shes threatening several more in the next 3 days

and I am really interested in hearing what others think or get out of each chapter. I have often noticed how many people reading the same thing can draw different points from it

I'll probably fall behind again now. Its friday night meaning the weekend is upon me and that means family time. hey dont worry about my grumbles, your not the only one reading the book, and your moving house. I am astounded that your able to read as much as you are.

Assuming I was having WSS, yes I would like it again. I miss it. I've said so since it went and because no one ever commented I figured it was enmeshment blar blar. I am just not sure when it will. I worked out it started happening about the 10th year of our marriage. This time we've been 'together' 3 years.

I am interested in learning the self soothing technique when I reach that bit. DH and I had a tense moment tonight and I found myself realising I was being anxious and concerned about his feelings for me, meaning I was other validating. Once I figured it out, I was able to stop some of the anxiety.

Just want to offer a quick apology and back out gracefully. I wasn't able to get the book. I am reading along, though.