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Re: Living in Limbo [Re: believer] #102439
05/05/11 04:15 PM
05/05/11 04:15 PM
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Don Man Don Offline
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no. i dont think those words about you at all sir.

Re: Living in Limbo [Re: catperson] #102445
05/05/11 04:31 PM
05/05/11 04:31 PM
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LovingAnyway Offline
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POSS...yes, I like that much better.

"I told her to think for herself for a change."

Disrespectful...great message. Remember that for ANYTHING she asks your advice on from this moment on...

"I know you'll make your choices."

See, their best thinking got them here, to right now...idiocy. Get out of their way.

Do not listen to her stuff anymore. Every time you look her way, say one sentence...respond, automatically...you are feeding her...stop it.

And don't feel like there's a trade off--she stopped going nuts in the morning, isn't forcing herself all over D7, so you can be nicer, as a reward. A little bit of ear for her.

No.

You're requiring her to live up to the minimum standard of respectful behavior in the mornings.

She was just re-elected to the POSS sb? Can you put a for sale sign in front of your house today?

I'm asking because I had this thought...it's ten years from now and your kids are teens and just out of teens...and they group together and say, "Dad, we love you. We are angry and just want to know, did it have to be that way? Seeing you suffer, we suffered."

And you answer....

Because I didn't want to bother my relatives for money
Because I didn't want to upset you guys
Because I didn't want to feel any worse than I already did
Because I didn't want my friends to drive so far
Because I didn't...

Regret is for what we didn't do.
Remorse is for what we did.

You feel jammed in and stuck. Not because you care (did you think you would feel unstuck if you finally got to where you didn't care?)...because <blank>

Let yourself see all your why nots and your whys. Sure could help other folks...walk it through. Be brave. Honest. Radically so.

What's the time line now on the divorce? Getting her out of the marital bed, if not the house? Getting the house re-financed just into your own name? I dunno.

You could also response to her queries with "Please move out. Keep your promise."

My heart hurts for you--I may be acting like a pest. Did the kids witness the verbal abuse last night at the track? You didn't mention it.

LA


The Paradoxical Commandments

Married 28 years/Together 30
Recovered 10 years
MALovingAnyway@gmail.com
IDU: Blame & Responsibility [Re: idontunderstand] #102446
05/05/11 04:34 PM
05/05/11 04:34 PM
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flowmom Offline
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Originally Posted By: quoting from Al Turtle article
Blame & Responsibility

[...]

Blame seems to me an act of assigning responsibility. I believe there is useful blame and dysfunctional blame. Useful blame is when we all correctly assign responsibility. I recall during my life as a project manager often saying, "This is my responsibility and that is yours. If my part goes wrong, it is my fault. If yours goes wrong, it is your fault. Let's help each other be a success." I use dysfunctional blame when I either try to get you to be responsible for my stuff or when I take responsiblity for your stuff.

[...]

All responsibility, in a Master/Slave relationship, resides in the Master position. The one in the Slave position avoids responsibility. [...] Masters make all the decisions, and thus carry the burden. And they get tired. [...] Slaves maintain freedom from responsibility by encouraging the Master to be dominant by blaming the Master for everything and by avoiding blame for anything. Masters maintain a sense of control by encouraging ( using the Punishement System) submission by the Slave.

[...]

In Master/Slave, dysfunctional blaming is used to assign all responsibility away from the Slave. In this way the Slave becomes the "good one" and the Master becomes the "bad one." Slaves become "innocent victims" and their partners are designated "perpetrators." Slaves use this posture as a way of manipulating others to punish the Master. [...]

The shift out of Master/Slave relating over to Friend/Friend relating always seems to involve learning Boundaries and working to determine "who is responsible for what."

emphasis mine
http://www.alturtle.com/blog/_archives/2007/4/19/2891910.html

I think you know that I am posting this with love IDU. What do you think?


we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
IDU: all about the "Slave" [Re: idontunderstand] #102447
05/05/11 04:46 PM
05/05/11 04:46 PM
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flowmom Offline
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Originally Posted By: quoting from Al Turtle article
I've found that the core posture of people in the Slave position is to avoid Self-Responsibility and even Self-Interest. Whether they are dealing with Masters or Passive-Masters, the Slave's contribution seems to always avoid looking at themselves. They are contributing their passiveness, and thus seek to reduce or to avoid "conflict" by being silent, and invisible. This, of course is the Lizard behaviors of Freezing and Submitting.

Examples:

"I don't know."
"I am lost."
"I am helpless."
"Why do I do that?"
"I don't know what to do."
"I have nothing to say." Silence

I have found this pattern of avoiding responsibility shows up in two forms of interactions. Most people in Slave position seem proficient in both.

Slaves with Masters "Fill me. I am empty." (#1 on the chart)

When talking to a person in the Master position, Slaves are seeking for the correct way or approved point of view, the one they will adopt without any personal reflection, from the other person. This seems primarily the Lizard behavior of Submitting.

Examples:

"What is the right way to do that?"
"What should I do?"
"Tell me what to do."
"What is correct?"
"Did I really do that?"
"Take care of me?"
"Am I right?"
"What are we going to do?"
"Do I make any sense?"
"You tell me!"

emphasis mine
http://www.alturtle.com/blog/_archives/2007/4/19/2891910.html

Do you see yourself in a Slave role with your W IDU? Do you see yourself in a Slave role on this forum?.


we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
Re: IDU: all about the "Slave" [Re: flowmom] #102448
05/05/11 04:50 PM
05/05/11 04:50 PM
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I
idontunderstand Offline OP
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yeah


M 15 yrs
D 9-13



supporting IDU [Re: idontunderstand] #102454
05/05/11 05:31 PM
05/05/11 05:31 PM
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flowmom Offline
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IDU, I am seeing some awesome advice being posted to you. I think the challenge for those supporting you is to not be triggered into assuming a "Master" role with you.

Your posts trigger me to want to fix you and your situation, tell you what to do and how to think, take care of you, etc. When I do that I am assuming the Master role and I am encouraging you in your stuckness, which I see as being all about passivity.

I would like to support you by encouraging a Friend-Friend dynamic. This feels really hard for me!!

This is how Al Turtle helps people who are assuming the "Slave" role:
Quote:
Slaves: You need to cut them off from "authorities who will tell them what to do" and from "needy people" who will distract them. Guide them into self-responsibility.

"I have to do that." Al, "Hm. Who says? and why would you want to do what they say."

"I failed. Did it wrong." Al, "Oh. Who says it is wrong? What do you think?"

"Am I right?" Al, "You'll have to decide that for yourself."

"What should I do?" Al, "Damn, for me that is a hard one. What do you plan to do?"

"I don't know." Al, "Sure, but what is your guess or your best hunch?"

"I don't want to upset my wife." Al, "Yes, but is that what you are doing. Seems to me that what you are doing ‘to not upset her' is upsetting her."

"He wants me to do it." Al, "Ok. But what do you want to do?"

"I'm just trying to do the right thing." Al, "Great! And what have you decided is right for you?"

"I don't want to do the wrong thing." Al, "Not to worrry. Whatever you do will be ok. Either it will work out well, or it'll teach you a lesson. Can't loose either way. So what's your guess about what to do."

"I can't move till I know what is the right thing." Al, "Yeah. I get stuck too, at times. Still got to go ahead. So what way are you leaning?"

"I have to take care of them." Al, "Yes, I hear that. Of course, sometimes taking care of people isn't the way to take care of them. Let's look at it.

"I worried what they will do." Al, "Sure, but they will probably do what is best for them. That's their job. What do you want to do about it?"
[emphasis mine] http://www.alturtle.com/blog/_archives/2007/4/19/2891910.html

I would like to work on interacting with you in a Friend role. I invite you to do the same in interacting with me. That could include setting boundaries when I am assuming a Master role with you (for example: implying that I know better than you what to you do or think).

What do you think?

Last edited by flowmom; 05/06/11 03:45 AM. Reason: typo and added to

we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
Re: supporting IDU [Re: flowmom] #102465
05/05/11 06:10 PM
05/05/11 06:10 PM
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bustorama Offline
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IDU,

I hear you saying you do feel like a "slave" in interactions with your wife, in your sitch. That in some way you aren't in a position to control things. I remember I used to feel the same way -- I even said something like that to my therapist early on in my IC.

I said, "I mean I don't see how she sees me as controlling. I have absolutely no control over things here. I've given her all the control. I just 'have to' keep hoping she comes around."

My therapist looked at me and said, "Hmmmm..."

I imagine from what you write that it does not feel good for you when she talks to the super or when she asks you your opinion about something the super said. How does it make you feel? If it makes you feel bad, it is your choice to accept (or not accept) people trampling across your boundaries. Or to accept yourself trampling across your own boundaries.

There seems to be a mismatch between how you act (accepting her continuing to disrespect you in your home and marital bed and carry on with affair behavior) and how you feel (disrespected, hurt, angry, cheated on?). Why are you not acting to defend your boundaries?

What are you scared of? Coach and others have suggested this -- say it out loud, dispute it, or hell even accept it. Even in the worst case that it happens, would you really be any worse off than you are now? You can have total control of yourself (you already do). Would you like to take the reigns a different way?


Last edited by bustorama; 05/05/11 06:18 PM.

Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Re: supporting IDU [Re: bustorama] #102526
05/05/11 09:14 PM
05/05/11 09:14 PM
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LovingAnyway Offline
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Flowmom...you are da bomb.

LA


The Paradoxical Commandments

Married 28 years/Together 30
Recovered 10 years
MALovingAnyway@gmail.com
Re: supporting IDU [Re: LovingAnyway] #102766
05/06/11 03:07 PM
05/06/11 03:07 PM
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evolve35 Offline
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Yep Flo, that's a good lesson for many of us here. We all want to help and mean well, but sometimes it's confusing and counterproductive. Thanks for being a voice of reason.
-E


Me-36
XH-34
T-9 yrs; M- 4 yrs
8/10 Bomb/separation
D final 5/31/11
Re: supporting IDU [Re: evolve35] #102782
05/06/11 03:34 PM
05/06/11 03:34 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,104
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idontunderstand Offline OP
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Everyone -

Thanks for setting me straight.

I am going to finish up on some reading this weekend. No More Mr. Nice Guy and Dobson's Tough Love book. I get the gist of things but I have to dig deeper to understand what's really going on with my interactions with my W.

FM -

I do see myself in the article. Just do me a small favor and don't refer to me as a slave. But we can continue on from that perspective. You are the best, BTW.

Busto -

Quote:
I said, "I mean I don't see how she sees me as controlling. I have absolutely no control over things here. I've given her all the control. I just 'have to' keep hoping she comes around."

My therapist looked at me and said, "Hmmmm..."



I've had a very similar convo with my IC. It's something we dig into a little deeper each time. I've only seen her three times and guess I need to go a little more often.

LA -

I have no words.

Evolve -

Thanks.

Steve -

You know, I really appreciate it when you come by because I know you are right. And I know I need hit upside the head even though it kind of torques me off while it's happening.



I've got a lot of reading and learning and thinking to do this weekend before I step in it anymore. Yesterday I was - overwhelmed, I guess. Don't really think too clearly like that. Time to cleanse the pallet.


M 15 yrs
D 9-13



Re: supporting IDU [Re: idontunderstand] #102832
05/06/11 04:59 PM
05/06/11 04:59 PM
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catperson Offline
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IDU, the more you learn about yourself, the easier it will be to get what you want out of life (or your wife).

Re: supporting IDU [Re: catperson] #102835
05/06/11 05:06 PM
05/06/11 05:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,446
Brotherly Love
gr8 day 2b alive Offline
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Brotherly Love
Quote:
IDU, the more you learn about yourself, the easier it will be to get what you want out of life (or your wife).

True,
Deciding what his N.U.T.s are is the first step.
I have faith it's going to be differnt this time around.

Keep learning every day.



Find a passion and pursue it.Fall in love.Dream Big.drink wine, eat good food and spend quality time with good friends.laugh everyday.tell stories. learn more. never give up. be grateful try new things be. happy. and above all, make every moment count.
Re: supporting IDU [Re: gr8 day 2b alive] #102928
05/06/11 07:42 PM
05/06/11 07:42 PM
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CajunRose Offline
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You ARE making progress, IDU. I hope you can really see that. It comes through to us.

I still see you falling into your bad patterns, but I've noticed those less and less...interspersed with a more confident, or at least more determined, IDU.

I'm so glad you are in IC, and that it's helping. I'm glad you are looking into you. We know what's wrong with WW, and there's no way to "fix" her.

Plenty of time to make you the man you want to be.


Current spouse: Night. D10, D9, S7

About me

You can't direct the wind, but you can adjust your sails.

http://www.divorcedmomfinances.com
Re: supporting IDU [Re: CajunRose] #102948
05/06/11 08:12 PM
05/06/11 08:12 PM
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Don Man Don Offline
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reality of the situation is 2x4's, "hitting you upside the head", doesnt work with you. we need a new strategy for you.

Re: supporting IDU [Re: Don Man Don] #103008
05/06/11 10:06 PM
05/06/11 10:06 PM
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Coach Offline
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Originally Posted By: Don Man Don
reality of the situation is 2x4's, "hitting you upside the head", doesnt work with you. we need a new strategy for you.


somewhere between this:



and this:




This is about right -


You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Re: supporting IDU [Re: Coach] #103014
05/06/11 10:18 PM
05/06/11 10:18 PM
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pookie69 Offline
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Get out of your own way IDU.







"A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Re: supporting IDU [Re: pookie69] #103015
05/06/11 10:20 PM
05/06/11 10:20 PM
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idontunderstand Offline OP
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Quote:
Get out of your own way IDU.




That really does sum it up.


M 15 yrs
D 9-13



Re: Living in Limbo [Re: idontunderstand] #103084
05/07/11 03:31 AM
05/07/11 03:31 AM
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flowmom Offline
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IDU, you see what's going here, don't you? The 2x4s are going to be replaced by musical abuse if you don't get out of your own way... eek

And...I've never called you a Slave, nor will I wink. We all have times when we adopt "Master" and "Slave" roles in our relationships though.


we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
Re: Living in Limbo [Re: flowmom] #103138
05/07/11 01:35 PM
05/07/11 01:35 PM
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Coach Offline
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Quote:
IDU, you see what's going here, don't you? The 2x4s are going to be replaced by musical abuse if you don't get out of your own way...


Let the games begin......

BTW this is my favorite song to sing doing Karoake. smile waves nod





You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Re: Living in Limbo [Re: Coach] #103150
05/07/11 02:44 PM
05/07/11 02:44 PM
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rob x Offline
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Let the games begin....


Re: Living in Limbo [Re: rob x] #103809
05/09/11 07:15 PM
05/09/11 07:15 PM
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Coach Offline
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"fa la la la la, fa la la la la, fa la la la la la la la la la la la, doo doodit do ......"


What's up IDU?!?!?!?!


You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Re: Living in Limbo [Re: Coach] #103890
05/09/11 09:13 PM
05/09/11 09:13 PM
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idontunderstand Offline OP
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Thanks for checking in, Coach.

I've been reading along most of the day but have been swamped at work. Finally got a few minutes to myself.

I did a lot of reading this weekend as I had Sun. all to myself. Took my new boat out, fished a little and read a lot. It was quiet and relaxing.

It's really painful to admit seeing so much of myself in these books. No More Mr. Nice Guy - I mean, crap, it's kind of humiliating, you know? The Dobson book was informative, too. Most of both of them were exactly what you "amateurs" have been pointing out to me for a long, long time.

I guess when I read about how mothers raise their boys, I had kind of a flash back; my parents are still married but Mom raised us, me and two sisters, and it was preached to me over and over again to be nice to my sisters, nice to my friends at school, never fight, don't rough-house, etc. My dad was there, but it was mom who raised us. Typical, I know. Still, I remember kids I went to school with who had brothers, especially one family who had five boys, one who was best man in my wedding, who were always in trouble, it seemed. They got in fights, they fought with each other, but they were fun. If someone looked at them wrong, they would go up to him, ask him if he had a problem and confront anyone right then and there. They weren't really mean, but I can think of a lot of times when I thought, "If my parents knew I was doing this, they would kill me."

I was just the opposite. Never instigate anything, talk your way out of it if you can, go with the flow. That's what was instilled in me. I was told to stand up for myself if someone else started it, but that was a last resort. Conflict avoider.

No need to rehash the whole thing. Like I said, I read and thought a lot.

Anyway, Sat. I went to look at a few houses that I could afford with a little help from my parents - something I hate asking - and had zero luck. One had major water damage and the other two the realtor said had contracts on them since she talked to me last Wed. There a no rentals in the area big enough for me and four kids. I'm not exaggerating. If it comes down to it, there is a two bedroom apt. where the kids could have the bedrooms and I could buy a sofa-sleeper and use it. There has to be a way.

Someone must have seen me and asked the W about it. She came out this morning while I was feeding the dogs and asked if I had any luck looking at houses. I just said, "Not really. I just started, though." She asked why I was looking. ??? I just said, "Look, we've been through this all before. I filed and you responded. Nothing else has been done. You won't leave and neither will I. I am looking for a place. Anything has to be better than staying here while you continue to flaunt your "friendship" in my face. Two days ago, you were talking about the track meet and how you and Joe helped with this, and that, and how you basically spent the entire day together. I have told you before, and it's my fault for not enforcing it, but if you have to mention him, I want you to call him Mr. Smith, not Joe. He has the same name as me and that is my name only in this house." She started in on why couldn't I accept that they were just friends and I stopped her. "I have girl friends. You know them all. Them and their husbands have been to our house and we have been to theirs. I don't talk to them every, single day." She said, "You don't work with any of them." I said, "Neither do you. You are a school board member. How many times have you called the S.B. Pres? The V.P? You are a volunteer coach, not an employee of the school. It doesn't matter, anymore. You keep insisting that you are just friends and I am finally telling you, for the last time, that it is an unacceptable relationship to me. Period. I've tried staying for the kids but that only gets you your free babysitter. I am looking for a place to go. As soon as I find one, I will leave. You can have the house, I will sign it over to you. You saw the appraisal, don't expect me to pay you anything for it. It may be worth more in a few years and if it is, good for you. Right now, it's not worth what we owe on it. That means no equity. That means my half of the house is worth the same as your half - nothing."

She then asked if we could come to an agreement on things without getting the L further involved. I reminder her that she had my list but never gave me one of her own. She said she had been busy with track and hadn't had time. She said she was fine with 50-50 custody as long as she was primary so they could stay in the same school. This is the same conversation we had not too long ago and I just said, "I'm not comfortable with that with all that has happened. I guess we will have to get the L involved, after all." I left for work.

I am scared to death. I know, big news flash. I don't want to offend any of my female supporters or any of the moms of wives here. I am in Illinois. The courts still lean toward the mother. I could lose pretty much everything. I make a little over 40k a year and if she is awarded any of it, well, you can do the math. It is a very real fear.

So, I am moving forward, slowly. So hard to let go for real. Her actions make it a little easier. I am reading parts of the Mr. Nice Guy book over. It is unsettling to see so much of myself on those pages. My, God.


M 15 yrs
D 9-13



Re: Living in Limbo [Re: idontunderstand] #103893
05/09/11 09:22 PM
05/09/11 09:22 PM
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CajunRose Offline
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I am so proud of you for going to look for a place to live for you and the kids! I procrastinated on that for a while.

I think you handled your conversation with her well - just stick to your guns, and keep your L involved. Don't get blindsided - as a father, it's more important than ever that you are prepared, or you won't get primary custody.

Are there any father's rights organizations in your area that could provide additional advice?


Current spouse: Night. D10, D9, S7

About me

You can't direct the wind, but you can adjust your sails.

http://www.divorcedmomfinances.com
Re: Living in Limbo [Re: idontunderstand] #103908
05/09/11 09:57 PM
05/09/11 09:57 PM
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Coach Offline
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Quote:
I am scared to death.


I understand the feeling. Your success depends on how you react to it. You acknowledge you were a conflict avoider and look at how that works. Time to learn new skills and grow.

Quote:
I read and thought a lot.


"Know yourself." Thinking has already helped you lead.

Quote:
There has to be a way.


There is. You are now the man that will keep looking until there is a way then take action.

Strength and Honor


You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Re: Living in Limbo [Re: idontunderstand] #103928
05/09/11 10:51 PM
05/09/11 10:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,821
flowmom Offline
Member
flowmom  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,821
IDU, it sounds like it's really sinking in. (((hugs))) I've also found it very painful to recognize how my shortcomings contributed to losing the things I value the most frown . I liked the image of you taking some quiet time for reflection in the midst of all this.

Sorry the house-hunting is so discouraging.

I can't speak for the other women posting here, but personally I totally get your concerns about being treated unfairly with respect to the financial side of the divorce. And given how hard you've worked to prevent it, it seems really unfair. I hope you get adequate legal advice...it sounds like you can't afford not to.

Understandably you are in crisis. Do you think you're also depressed right now? If so, please be aware of how it can warp your decision-making processes. I hope you can fight for what you deserve...if not for yourself then for your children. If he wants to be part of trashing your M, then SuperLame can support your W.

This is all so hard. Yet I have a picture of you feeling strong and happy in my mind. As a wise man says: "You can handle it".


we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
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