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Blog People #792
09/03/10 02:29 AM
09/03/10 02:29 AM
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2long Offline OP
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I couldn't resist using that subject! (a few years ago, we went 2 see the Bog People exhibit in LA).

Anyway, since I posted these, they're mine, so I'm copying what I wrote and pasting them here.

Mark: Hey sorry man, it was your thread that got locked! blush



Best relationships are where the partners recognize that it isn't their responsibility 2 make their spouse do anything, including (especially) love them. The best relationships are between 2 individuals who don't "need" their needs met, but choose 2 meet (or exceed) their partner's needs because they want 2.

I'm with Frank Pittman. People who believe they can (or should) sustain romantic love indefinitely are fooling themselves. It is the "caring love" that the Harleys describe that is sustaining.

Having said that, I'm an incurable romantic, I think:

Cristie McVie, "Songbird"

-ol' 2long

Re: Blog People [Re: 2long] #793
09/03/10 02:32 AM
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I don't really think that the Harleys are so inflexible that they can't apply different approaches 2 solving marital problems. That was my experience with Steve, at any rate.

Frank Pittman:
Quote:
People who think they can't endure life unless they are "in love" are dangerous. After thirty-seven years in the trenches of family therapy and thirty-seven years in a totally committed, totally realistic marriage, I have come to see "romantic love" as an absurd, albeit delicious, crisis-induced escape from sanity, a narcissistic intoxication with no relationship to loving


Quote:
Despite it all, if one is unpartnered and alone, romantic love can be a resolution to loneliness as magically ecstatic and lifesaving as Robinson Crusoe's spotting of the footsteps in the sand. While it will not last, the fact that it was once there and that memories of it can be conjured up from time to time makes a resultant marriage feel special and right. Of course misery (and/or an extensive sexual and romantic supporting cast) can result if the partners are so foolish as to require continuation of their romantic high for a lifetime.


Quote:
John Gottman finds in What Predicts Divorce that long-term marital satisfaction comes from factors such as companionship and friendship, and the ability to provide support, validation, and understanding, rather than passion and in-loveness. It seems to me dangerous for people to stake their happiness in life on romantic love. They are ecstatic when they experience that most engulfing flight from reality, but miserable when they don't. Romance can pull you out of a funk, but it has far more side effects than Prozac.


-ol' 2long

Re: Blog People [Re: 2long] #794
09/03/10 02:34 AM
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The rest of what I was going 2 say was really good, 2, but I was banned before I could post them.

However, I did post on iloveulove.com. Soon, I'll go over there, dig the best stuff up, and post it here for your viewing/pondering pleasure.

-ol' 2long

Re: Blog People [Re: 2long] #1097
09/05/10 03:31 PM
09/05/10 03:31 PM
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Continuing...

I was in the middle of this post, to StillStanding's question 2 me, when I got banned and so couldn't respond (on MB, that is):

"still:

On d-day over 8 years ago, I learned that the woman I thought I'd been in love with for the prior 26 years was more in my imagination than based in reality. It 2k a long time 2 get over the remaining feelings I had for this fictitious version of my W, but they did fade with time. After all, much of our "intimacy" was a facade 2 hide the affair from being discovered.

What replaced that was something more like what Harley describes as caring love, and what Frank Pittman might describe as a realistic view of marriage and the joy that comes with being responsible for your lots in life:

quote:
Marriage is not about being in love. It is about the agreement to love one another. Love is an active, transitive verb. It is something married grown-ups do no matter how they feel. It is nice when married people are in love with each other, but if they are loving enough to each other, that magic may catch fire again.



If I had had 2 rekindle romantic love before addressing our problems (and getting rid of Rat Meat), I would have been divorced years ago. Quite possibly happy, 2. But I didn't divorce and I didn't expect more from my W than she was capable of giving at the time, and I'm quite happy! She is 2, and it's magical 2 see her when she's happy. This makes me wish 2 continue the things I do that appear 2 contribute 2 her happiness without compromising my own, and the happiness and intimacy grow.

Is it perfect? If I thought I had a perfect marriage (like I used 2 when we were young and in love), I'm sure I'd set myself up for a bushel of disappointment at some point. My marriage is different from what it was (thank God!), but it's a "better" different. Will it last forever? Well, I won't LIVE forever. It might last the rest of my lifetime, though."

-ol' 2long

Re: Blog People [Re: 2long] #1099
09/05/10 03:43 PM
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contd, june 26:

"I had been trying 2 make the point I made for some time on MB - that there are different approaches 2 surviving an affair, including different approaches that the Harley's themselves apply 2 their own plans. But I think the current "ruling party" on MB is just 2 intolerant (the forums, not the coaching). However, I will admit that the way I go about getting my point across tends 2 chap the BBQ hide more than a little. There are more constructive ways 2 respond 2 even that, though. But it's useless if I'm the only "side" 2 recognize that.

So they banned me. Okay, something I'll live with, maybe even happily once I get used 2 it! And get past the gnawing thought that the ruling party managed 2 get the last word by allowing no recourse.

Those of us in recovered marriages - and I do believe mine is recovered (because I SAY SO), in spite of resurgent drama over the years - can probably reflect back on our experiences and various applications of the MB plans and maybe have a dialog about what's really effective, what isn't, and how realistic some of the expectations in the program are.

I really do believe that the notion that romantic love is the most important part of marriage is foolish and a setup for major disappointment even2ally. Romance is what allows most people in committed relationships 2 have affairs. There's no difference between romantic love between spouses and that between affairees - either way it's nothing more lofty than a chemical high. But at least when its between spouses it's not unethical, whereas between affairees it is. And so I can't understand why it's so crazy 2 suggest that "deep caring love" - a concept that the Harleys ALSO espouse - shouldn't be ranked higher in importance than romantic love? Yes, I disagree with what Dr Harley has said, but not so completely that it's calling him wrong (though even if it is, he's a scientist - that PhD suffix says so - and so he should welcome critical review of his methods, not block them from commenting).

There are some basic, often "inconvenient" truths that we all must accept about being human on this planet - or at least in this country:

*infidelity is not illegal (mainly because most people are idiots and rank "romantic love" so high that they often congra2late people for "pursuing happiness" any way they can, regardless of who it hurts). Way back when, WAT's "quickstart guide" advised the BS not 2 interfere with the affair. Wise words. But these days, interfering is the first goal, at least on the forums. I don't even know if his guide is on the forums anywhere. I really wonder how many marriages were saved by the BS attacking the affair from the get go and pressuring the WS 2 end it, versus how many were saved where the BS did nothing more than expose the affair (telling the truth isn't a lovebuster) and wait for the WS 2 either get it or not, on their own (with the BS' own timetable a factor as well)? A repentant FWS is worth more 2 me than a "coerced" one. Don't get me wrong. I even believe in ultimatums, so long as the ultimator is prepared 2 follow through. I wasn't, then I was, and now I find there's no need. grin

*We all have certain unalienable rights. One of the benefits of being human, is that we have the right 2 make our own choices in life. If our ultimate goal is 2 be enlightened, or even just remembered fondly after we're gone, obviously making a choice that hurts those we profess 2 love, like having an affair, isn't particularly expedient, but it is still our right 2 make stupid choices as well as smart ones. Hopefully, those who do choose to have affairs learn something useful from the experience after all the fallout has settled. Because it's been over 8 years since d-day for me, a certain MB "vet" has been fond of repeatedly calling me an enabler, a doormat, or in a mediocre marriage and liking it. None of these things are true, but ironically I could never make that point stick over on MB because I never got the last word (when I tried 2, the mods would edit it, but not the vet's posts, so they always "won"). Like I said on DMK's thread on SYMC the other day, my marriage will never be like it was, and that's a good thing! It is very different now from anything I could have conceived it 2 be. For now, I'm happy. I don't think my W is capable of having an affair anymore. But in any event, all along I've had free will of my own, and if there were another affair, I would not let it hurt me, I'd simply be done with this marriage.

There is an important difference between coaching and counseling, as I've tried both. Coaches, at least as perceived by members of the MB forums (this is the important distinction - the motivating force being the forum more than the coach!), CAN tell their clients "what 2 do". In reality, they make suggestions and help the client come up with a plan 2 achieve a particular goal, but quite frankly the plan inadvertently (perhaps) amounts 2 a degree 2 being manipulation of someone else (in the case of infidelity). Credentialed therapists listen 2 you and offer suggestions or their insight 2 help you understand what you're experiencing and help you heal, but it's unethical for them 2 help you plan how 2 manipulate your spouse. And it's a waste of time and the client's money for them 2 speculate what's going on in your spouse's head.

Looking back on my coaching experiences with Steve Harley and Penny Tupy, I'd say the they were both trying 2 help me formulate plans for recovering my marriage, and they both were professional about it. But without my W's participation, their approach was largely inapplicable. Ironically, the "measured honesty" IC I had back in Spring 2002 was probably among the most helpful in getting me on the road 2 healing. He listened, offered suggestions (some of them, like the measured honesty crap, really pissed me off, and I told him so, but some were very helpful), and left it up 2 me 2 internalize the things we discussed so I could heal myself. I was just 2 fresh out of the gate at the time 2 feel as though I'd accomplished much by the time I stopped seeing him. Heck, it 2k me at least 3 more years 2 make my biggest personal strides and have them stick.

The MB Forum version of coaching is bordering on a perversion of the goals, particularly when a hurting newbie is driven away because the vets perceive them as an unrepentant WS or an enabling BS.

Posting 2 forums is addictive. Many MB "vets" appear addicted 2 other peoples' drama. After 8 years since d-day, I can say with certainty that, while discovering my W's affair WAS the most painful experience of my life at the time, it certainly doesn't hurt me now. And so I think it's disingenuous for an MB vet, years out from d-day, 2 continually remind newbies that being cheated on is worse than being raped or losing a child. It offers little in the way of hope that the pain might lessen with time or that the WS can ever aspire 2 be a FWS."

-ol' 2long


Re: Blog People [Re: 2long] #1100
09/05/10 03:50 PM
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contd (heavily edited, since I quoted someone else's posts):

"From what I've learned, romantic love is most certainly not "all Dr Harley stands for". But it's clearly a big factor.

His2ry has proven that "open debate" on MB, where a member disagrees with the prevailing interpretation of the Harley methods, is impossible. The dissenter is edited, the vets who pounce on the dissenter (and are moderators with alternate usernames) are not edited. If the dissenter persists, they're warned and then banned, usually with the rest of the membership oblivious 2 the events that transpired.

It really does surprise and baffle me that Dr Harley ranks romantic love - chemical love - above what he describes as "deep caring love" which is more akin 2 attachment that grows over time (things like history, friendship, companionship, team-membership as a spouse in a marriage, family leadership responsibility) and unconditional love (though Dr Harley does not understand unconditional love, he correctly warns his clients against its common misapplication in recovering from infidelity). In the past, we have had many interesting and thought-provoking debates about love being a choice and not a feeling, but it's been quite a long time (over 3 years). Romantic love between spouses is a worthy goal, but only in addition 2 a healthy decision 2 "love, honor, and cherish" "for better or for worse".

Obviously, romantic love is possible - even pervasive! But it's a chemical high (albeit a na2ral one) and it does fade with time! This is why the Harleys themselves will tell BSs that their WS' affair will "burn out" in a year or 2. Because when the excitement of the romantic love fades, there's no "reality" in the relationship 2 sustain the affairees in the long term. Likewise, in a recovering marriage, if there's no "choice 2 love" based on the commitment made by the spouses when they married (e.g., kids, his2ry, fu2res), after the affair relationship collapses, the marriage itself will collapse once the new-found romance fades.

Dr Harley is a scientist, and should welcome a healthy debate about his methods. Scientists who've become "married" 2 their models are inflexible and religious, not scientific.

The GOAL of being alive is wisdom and enlightenment. The GOAL of human interaction is 2 have rewarding relationships with our loved ones, friends, and 2 "do no harm." And 2 be memorable after we're gone."

-ol' 2long


Re: Blog People [Re: 2long] #1101
09/05/10 03:53 PM
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contd, june 29:

"I am still saddened when I would find a newbie, either a WS or even a BS, trying 2 find their way through a really tough si2ation that they either created or inadvertently found themselves in, being driven off by the hard-liners rather than given helpful advice.

I tried 2 help that one WW a few months back, who'd had a ONS with her BFF's H but was afraid 2 tell her H and her BFF about it. I even started a thread for her after her own had been locked, but the weirdest thing happened. A vet suggested she go 2 TOW, I notified the mods about that and asked if I could send her 2 another site (without ac2ally doing so), and the thread was locked and *I* was warned that it is a TOS violation 2 send someone 2 "competing websites". So, I gave up, and I try not 2 read threads from newbies I can't help (well, now I can't help ANYBODY there, LOL!"

-ol' 2long

Re: Blog People [Re: 2long] #1103
09/05/10 04:31 PM
09/05/10 04:31 PM
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This is good stuff, 2long, and I'm glad we get the chance to read it now!


**Formerly known as Cuthbert Calculus**

"There is enough sadness in life without having fellows like Gussie Fink-Nottle going about in sea boots."

Glad Tidings

Gladstone's Sucess Story
Re: Blog People [Re: Gladstone] #1155
09/06/10 12:06 AM
09/06/10 12:06 AM
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2Long, many good points in here. Good point #1:

Quote
I really wonder how many marriages were saved by the BS attacking the affair from the get go and pressuring the WS 2 end it, versus how many were saved where the BS did nothing more than expose the affair (telling the truth isn't a lovebuster) and wait for the WS 2 either get it or not, on their own (with the BS' own timetable a factor as well)? A repentant FWS is worth more 2 me than a "coerced" one.


I don't think that a BS ought to expend much effort on a FWS who isn't on board. I agree - expose and let the A continue and see what shakes out. I don't see too many success stories hanging on the forum these days, using the current hard-line approach. While I am sure there are success stories, for those who work the plans, one in particular that springs to mind doesn't seem very happy to me. Ever. At. All.

Good point #2:
Quote
Posting 2 forums is addictive. Many MB "vets" appear addicted 2 other peoples' drama.


Or addicted to other people's admiration for all their "knowledge". Or just addicted to posting. Or just addicted.

Good point #3:
Quote
It really does surprise and baffle me that Dr Harley ranks romantic love - chemical love - above what he describes as "deep caring love" which is more akin 2 attachment that grows over time (things like history, friendship, companionship, team-membership as a spouse in a marriage, family leadership responsibility)


I've been thinking about this as well. I've been married nearly 25 years now. The kind of love that deepens over the years is not romantic love. It's a love borne of shared experiences. Sure we have some romantic moments, but I don't think you can ever truly recapture what you had at the beginning of your relationship - any more than plastic surgery at 48 will make me look 28.

CS/PK


The artist formerly known as penaltykill
Re: Blog People [Re: crazed student] #2320
09/11/10 04:44 AM
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More stuff from other boards:

This was in response 2 a question posed 2 me by a guy on SYMC:

I've known my wife now for over 36 years. And it's funny, but now that I remember back on it, we did spend every day 2gether, literally, from the year before we married up until I had to be away for a field classes about 3 years after we got married.

I believed I could see my W's potential back in the early days. But I think I must have been projecting 2 some extent. In any case, when I realized sometime after d-day that I really didn't know her like I thought I did, I started 2 also realize that her true potential wasn't quite what I thought it was, either. Not that it wasn't beautiful, but that it wasn't mine 2 figure out - just observe and enjoy, if I could.

Even the best of these elements of my W's personality were my own construct around what/who I thought she was or believed she could be. And though we've recovered our marriage in large part, it's not anything like it was "before". It never could be, of course. But it was one thing 2 be able 2 say that soon after d-day and another thing 2 really understand what that meant, such that I can say now that I truly don't stay because of anything she's done or doing. I stay because I want 2, for me. We have a very different relationship now. My ideals about commitment and promises are very different from hers. I suppose that may be as much a factor of the current state of our personal journeys (e.g., her recovery from having compromised her values 2 have the affair, mine from having 2 let go of that his2ry and focus on things I can do now). Sometimes I worry that having detached with love will lead 2 us "growing apart", but most of the time those thoughts don't bother me.

Recently, we've had conversations about the news of the Gore separation. When all that was known was what they were saying - that they "grew apart" - was the sole reason for separating after 40 years of marriage. My W said she can understand that people can just grow apart like that (which had me wondering - "if you understand why a marriage like that could "fail" without infidelity or abuse/addiction involved, what does that say about your projections of the fu2re of our marriage?"). Of course, I've since heard the news rags report that Al Gore has been cheating on Tipper. ...and THAT had me going "see? I knew there was more 2 the story!" because I couldn't (maybe still can't) believe that a couple in a long-term marriage without abuse/addictions or infidelity would "grow apart", but would instead grow 2gether over the years. I don't think my W has heard that infidelity may have been involved. And you know what? Maybe it doesn't matter 2 me if she ever does. Her view is her view. If she changes her opinion on the subject, it needs 2 be because she wanted 2, not because I "convinced" her that her opinion was wrong and mine was right. ...because it just might not be.

What does that say, ultimately, about the fu2re of our marriage? Who knows? I'm not going 2 worry about it so much anymore. I know what we have on a deep level. It is sustaining us now. And maybe that is sufficient.

-ol' 2long

Re: Blog People [Re: 2long] #2321
09/11/10 04:48 AM
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More, from that thread:

...though I certainly had my massive ups and downs around d-day and after, and "tried" various plans and strategies, I never really was dealing with what most people have 2 when there's an affair.

One factor is common with all these si2ations, though. I still don't have all the answers, and maybe my W doesn't know them really. Ac2ally, I think it would be pretty hard 2 make sense of nonsense. In the end, there probably is no good reason for an affair, or for treating someone you profess 2 love the way you do when ending a relationship the way most waywards do.

That's why NC is the best route 2 healing, I think. Because since you're not likely 2 ever get a straight answer 2 your questions, it helps you 2 get 2 a point where you don't need one, sooner.

-ol' 2long

Re: Blog People [Re: 2long] #2326
09/11/10 08:08 AM
09/11/10 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by 2long
I suppose that may be as much a factor of the current state of our personal journeys (e.g., her recovery from having compromised her values 2 have the affair, mine from having 2 let go of that his2ry and focus on things I can do now). Sometimes I worry that having detached with love will lead 2 us "growing apart", but most of the time those thoughts don't bother me.



I'm thoroughly enjoying reading along 2long. Thank you for posting these thoughts.

The part quoted above has really got me thinking about recovery, possible levels of enotional detachment and what sort of M is really possible after an A. I don't doubt that we can have good M's or that a M can be better in many profound ways but will those in a M affected by infidelity always feel some sense of grief for what is lost?

Is there a place in a recovered M for that grief which fades to sadness and is it really possible to totally let that grief go?

I'm only just into my 3rd year of recovery so its still relatively early days in my recovery but it's these types of questions that have me pondering at the moment.


The sun never says to the earth "you owe me"
Look what happens with a love like that.
It lights up the whole sky.
Re: Blog People [Re: serendipitous] #14251
10/27/10 06:09 PM
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Hey 2long,

Saw where you referenced your blog on Chrisner's thread, and that you were inspired to clip your 2005 posts from when your father passed away and post them here. I also saw where you tried to click on a link on the Success Stories thread on MB linked to my sig line and the link said that your access was denied.

My suggestion, DON'T WAIT. Especially if you don't have a hard copy, get those posts today while you're thinking about it.

Glad your blog is here even if I had to dig down into the MA basement to find it.....I look forward to reading it soon.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: Blog People [Re: Ace] #14345
10/27/10 10:10 PM
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Good point, Ace!

I wouldn't be surprised, the way things have been going in the last few years, if that forum implodes and disappears al2gether at some point.

So, here are my posts from when my father passed away in 2005, the day after the Burbank MB lunch, IIRC.

Here's the link, so people can read the replies I got. But the poems? I used those in the memorial service we had for him later that month, so I'm going 2 quote them here anyway:

The Pilot has embarked on his last flight

-----------------
My dad, who was a Lt. Commander and a fighter pilot in the Navy during WWII, passed away peacefully this morning in Sacramento.

He was much loved, and he will not be forgotten.

I was hoping 2 go see him again this next week, but I did get 2 visit with him at the end of June. His 88th b-day was July 7th.

He had all his wits about him right up until the end.

2 my dad: Thank you for being my dad!


"If our friendship depends on things like space and time, then when we finally overcome space and time, we've destroyed our own brotherhood! But overcome space, and all we have left is Here. Overcome time, and all we have left is Now. And in the middle of Here and Now, don't you think that we might see each other once or twice?"

- from "Jonathan Livingston Seagull", Richard Bach (a pilot who wrote stories about flight that my dad enjoyed)

-2long

Re: Blog People [Re: 2long] #14346
10/27/10 10:12 PM
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Posted on my thread, by believer:

Quote
High Flight
Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds, â€" and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of â€" wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air. . . .

Up, up the long, delirious burning blue
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or ever eagle flew â€"
And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.

â€" John Gillespie Magee, Jr

Re: Blog People [Re: 2long] #14347
10/27/10 10:13 PM
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posted by aussieswife:

Quote
He is not dead -
But only flying higher,
Higher than he's flown before,
And earthly limitations
Will hinder him no more.

There is no service ceiling,
Or any fuel range,
And there is no anoxia,
Or need for engine change.
Thank God that now his flight can be
To heights his eyes had scanned,
Where he can race with comets,
And buzz the rainbow's span.

For he is universal
Like courage, love and hope,
And all free, sweet emotions
Of vast and godly scope.

And understand a pilot's Fate
Is not the thing he fears,
But rather sadness left behind,
Your heartbreak and your tears.

So all you loved ones, dry your eyes,
Yes, it is wrong that you should grieve,
For he would love your courage more,
And he would want you to believe
He is not dead.
You should have known
That he is only flying higher,
Higher than he's ever flown

Celestial Flight
Elizabeth MacKethan Magid

Re: Blog People [Re: 2long] #14348
10/27/10 10:15 PM
10/27/10 10:15 PM
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2long Offline OP
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Posted by CSue:

Quote
Another favorit RB Book - There's No Such Place As Far Away.

A piece from it is, "Can miles truly separate us from friends? If we want to be with someone we love, aren't we already there?"

Then there's, "Fly free and happy beyond birthdays and across forever, and we'll meet now and then when we wish, in the midst of the one celebration that never can end."

Re: Blog People [Re: 2long] #14350
10/27/10 10:15 PM
10/27/10 10:15 PM
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Another post of mine from that thread:

----------------

My dad used 2 call my mom "Sweetheart" all the time. I always thought it was corny, but not anymore. It's from a song he was fond of. I don't know if it was his favorite, but it might have been... ...I'll ask my sisters.

"Let Me Call You Sweetheart" - Beth Slater Whitson

"I am dreaming Dear of you, day by day
Dreaming when the skies are blue, When they're gray;
When the silv'ry moonlight gleams, Still I wander on in dreams,
In a land of love, it seems, Just with you.

Let me call you "Sweetheart," I'm in love with you.
Let me hear you whisper that you love me too.
Keep the love-light glowing in your eyes so true.
Let me call you "Sweetheart," I'm in love with you.

Longing for you all the while, More and more;
Longing for the sunny smile, I adore;
Birds are singing far and near, Roses blooming ev'rywhere
You, alone, my heart can cheer; You, just you.

Let me call you "Sweetheart," I'm in love with you.
Let me hear you whisper that you love me too.
Keep the love-light glowing in your eyes so true.
Let me call you "Sweetheart," I'm in love with you."

-ol' 2long

Re: Blog People [Re: 2long] #14352
10/27/10 10:17 PM
10/27/10 10:17 PM
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Stilllovinghim posted this poem (which we also used):

Quote
THE PILOT

Someday we’ll know where the pilots go
When their work on earth is through
Where the air is clean and the engines gleam
And the skies are clear and blue.
They have flown, with the engine’s moan
As they climbed to the great beyond
And taken delight at the awesome sight
Of the world spread far and ‘yond
And how they love, and are beloved,
But their love is most for air
With wings spread out, they still fly out
And leave their troubles there.
How near to God, these men of sod
Who come near danger’s door;
They are real, not made of steel
He knows who goes before.
Yet not alone, above their home
When the earth is out of sight
They make their stand, He takes their hand
And guides them through the night.
He knows these things, of men and wings
And they are surely true.
He’ll give a hand to such a man,
Because He’s a pilot, too.


©Leo D. Hymas, 1978

Re: Blog People [Re: 2long] #14353
10/27/10 10:19 PM
10/27/10 10:19 PM
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I posted this song of Peter Gabriel's:


---------------
Peter Gabriel, "Father, Son":

"Father, son
Locked as one
In this empty room
Spine against spine
Yours against mine
Till the warmth comes through

Remember the breakwaters down by the waves
I first found my courage
Knowing daddy could save
I could hold back the tide
With my dad by my side

Dogs, plows and bows
We move through each pose
Struggling in our seperate ways
Mantras and hymns
Unfolding limbs
Looking for release through the pain

And the yogi's eyes are open
Looking up above
He too is dreaming of his daddy's love
With his dad by his side
Got his dad by his side

Can you recall
How you took me to school
We couldn't talk much at all
It's been so many years
And now these tears
Guess I'm still a child

Out on the moors
We take a pause
See how far we have come
You're moving quite slow
How far can we go
Father and son

With my dad by my side
With my dad by my side
Got my dad by my side
With me"

Re: Blog People [Re: 2long] #14354
10/27/10 10:22 PM
10/27/10 10:22 PM
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So many fondly-remembered friends posted 2 me on that thread, some are here, some are long gone from MB even. Some are still there:

---------------
Ap:

My dad was in the Pacific.

He was 2 be assigned 2 the torpedo squadron that lost all but one pilot during the battle of Midway, but was transfered the week before the battle 2 Widby Island. Then, 2 Dutch Harbor, Alaska, where I think he spent the remainder of the war.

He was missing 2 fingers of his left hand, and had been temporarily blinded after a crash landing on a carrier in rough seas. They said he'd never fly again, but he was back in the air within a 2ple months.

He never talked much about it, but we do have some photos of him and his squadron, including one in front of one of their Wildcats on the airstrip. I didn't even know how much had happened there until a few years ago when I was watching a program on Discovery Wings about the Army Air Corp in Alaska. They mentioned the Navy's involvement, but the program was mostly about the army pilots. The Japanese had set up air bases and seaports on a couple of the eastern Aleutian islands, and the pilots from Dutch Harbor had to fly something like 500 miles, often in bad weather, 2 engage them. My dad said they typically had less than about 15 minutes over their targets (which were often hard 2 see through cloud cover), before they had 2 2rn around so they'd have enough fuel for the re2rn flight. The Japanese attacked Dutch Harbor on at least one occasion, as well.

He loved flying, and always wanted 2 build his own airplane, but never did (raised 5 kids instead!!!).

-ol' 2long

Re: Blog People [Re: 2long] #14355
10/27/10 10:23 PM
10/27/10 10:23 PM
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We just got back from the memorial services last night.

I was wrong about some things. My sisters found a loan application for the last house my mom and dad bought 2gether that had a copy of his discharge papers attached.

Prior 2 his time in Dutch Harbor, he was on the Saratoga and the Yorktown. There isn't any detailed information on the discharge form, just places and ships he was stationed on, plus mention that he received 4 stars for service in the Asiatic Pacific, including Phillipine Liberation, and another star and ribbon that I'll have 2 look further in2 when I can.

We have none of his stars or other service awards, and as I said, he never really talked about the war much.

-ol' 2long

Re: Blog People [Re: 2long] #14359
10/27/10 10:37 PM
10/27/10 10:37 PM
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My dad died on August 7, 2005.

Like I said, so many of my favorite MBers posted condolences. Many others I don't remember offhand, and several who are still on MB.

I wonder what's happened 2 people like:

hcii
TogetherAlone
WasSadTiger (he was at the Burbank lunch the day before)
graycloud is a facebook friend!
Susan hasn't been on MB in years, IIRC.
Trix (still on MB?)
AD (great guy. We corresponded via email. I invited him here, but his new wife loves the hell out of him and he doesn't need these forums!) grin
Dealan-de (Still on MB??)
foundareason
Binder (I was hoping graycloud knew how 2 contact him, but he said no).
dleightonc (he posted once recently on MB after years since previous. I wish I could tell him about MA, but don't have any contact info)
ark^^ (I invited her at an old email addy I had for her, but haven't gotten a response).
CV55 (Still on MB??)
Just Learning (needs to read his emails! but I'll probably run in2 him at an AGU meeting someday)
HopeThisWorks
chackler (I had an email addy a few years ago, but don't know what happened 2 it).

The way I found this thread, since I can't "search" since I can't log in, is to list the forum by thread starter and bounce back and forth until I get 2 the "twos". Takes a LONG TIME, so I may just pick through a few more threads and bring my posts from them here as well!



-ol' 2long

Re: Blog People [Re: 2long] #14376
10/27/10 11:21 PM
10/27/10 11:21 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 725
Almost in The People's Republi...
chrisner Offline
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Almost in The People's Republi...
WasSadTiger was at the MB Fruits and Nuts in Burbank in July 2007. He is really a neat and funny guy. He is remarried now.

graycloud is perhaps my favorite BH poster ever at MB. He could write of emotions like few others. I read the entire volumous Grays Campfire thread.

I don't recall seeing Dealan-de in some time at MB.

foundareason was at the Fruits and Nuts too. Another great guy. Last he posted to me he was totally in love and scheduled for marriage.

JL. What can you say?


Re: Blog People [Re: 2long] #14383
10/27/10 11:29 PM
10/27/10 11:29 PM
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Almost in The People's Republi...
chrisner Offline
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Originally Posted by 2long
Posted on my thread, by believer:

Quote
High Flight
Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds, and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air. . . .

Up, up the long, delirious burning blue
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or ever eagle flew
And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.

John Gillespie Magee, Jr


I think Magee was from Two Harbors Minnesota. I think I saw the original of High Flight in a tiny railroad/harbor museum near the harbor there years ago. I was kind of excited about it and showed it to WxW. She said, "Hmmmmm". We got excited about different things I guess.

However I certainly remember the old air force commercial from the 70's that used High Flight's words behind a beautiful film of a F5 Freedom Fighter soaring higher and higher. It gave me goosebumps.

Last edited by chrisner; 10/27/10 11:56 PM.
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