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Topic Options
#60842 - 01/28/11 07:17 PM Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust.
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
My greatest discovery was my Map of Relationships. And it's simply a road map. On the other hand I haven't discovered anything like it and everyone you meet is somewhere on it. Where are you?

It started with a map that is common to Imago Relationships Therapy. Then I built on it to include all the paths that are possible, deleted a bunch of stuff and added some great stuff, I think they miss. Then I taught it for 4 years, modified it, and finally created it in glorious color - on a camp table in Glacier National Park in the fall of 2000. I've been examining and teaching it ever since. Nothing seems as simple and complete.

If you speak to me, I immediately start to place your problems in context, on the Map. Actually when I read what you write, I tentatively do the same thing.

At one point I was gonna make a DVD of this Map. I created a script, narrated it and then .... well. It never went further. Here is the Map in color and also the script in full. You can even download the narration, tho it costs some pennies.

Read it. Figure out where you are and where you want to go. Then consider what you will have to do. And get on with it.

Some of you have already found this map. Here is a place to discuss it.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#60998 - 01/29/11 07:52 AM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: AlTurtle]
NewEveryDay
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Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 8048
I think I'm in the Divorce phase, moving towards Starting Over. But I am going to listen to the MP3s, because I always learn more than I expected to smile
_________________________
"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays

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#61085 - 01/29/11 12:12 PM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: NewEveryDay]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
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Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Dear NewEveryDay,

I think you have the idea of the Map. For me, and probably admin of Marriage Advocates, it provides a diagnostic tool for assessing where people are in their journey to achieve a great relationship. The replaces any kind of "one size fits all" tool.

For me and everyone, it provides a tool to see where I am, what I have been going through, what my choices are and what I have to focus on next. Because of it's form, it also gives everyone a clue about where their partner has been, what's been going on in their past, what their choices are, and what they have to do next.

You can say that one phrase, "I guess I am in the Divorce phase," and the tool provides me with a whole lot of tentative information about you - and about your partner. Tentative information can lead to questions, curiosity and of course lots of Validation.

I really like people in the Divorce phase. Take your time.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#61159 - 01/29/11 03:03 PM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: AlTurtle]
Rich57
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Registered: 11/10/10
Posts: 1251
So can the husband and the wife be in two different stages on the map? Or do you have to be in the same stage as the other person, I mean it is a relationship map.

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#61210 - 01/29/11 05:04 PM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: Rich57]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: Rich57
So can the husband and the wife be in two different stages on the map? Or do you have to be in the same stage as the other person, I mean it is a relationship map.


Good question. I think that in a relationship two people can be in the same area (more normally) or can be in adjacent areas.

For instance, one partner may be in the Choice Point moving toward Divorce, while the other is still in either the Power Struggle, Door #2, or interestingly Door #1. I doubt a couple can be further apart than that.

Certainly I do not believe one person can be in Vintage Love and the other in the Power Struggle - tho I've heard people claim it.

What is the situation you are thinking of?
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#61373 - 01/29/11 11:20 PM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: NewEveryDay]
LotsaLove
New Member

Registered: 01/02/11
Posts: 13
Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
I think I'm in the Divorce phase, moving towards Starting Over.


I think I am in the Divorce phase also.
I'm doing the When to Fold'em letters but this calm feeling is taking over,
to just pack it up and move on (start over).

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#61426 - 01/30/11 07:50 AM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: LotsaLove]
AntigoneRisen
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Quote:
For instance, one partner may be in the Choice Point moving toward Divorce, while the other is still in either the Power Struggle


This is my assessment of my current relationship. I'm at choice and moving towards termination. I only have my beliefs about where he is.
_________________________
Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens

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#61507 - 01/30/11 12:02 PM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: AntigoneRisen]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
My guess is that you are both at the Choice Point, facing Door #1, Door#2, or Door #3. Your partner could be with you or still in the Power Struggle or Inside Door #2. (I don't have a Divorce Point in the Map cuz I think Divorce is an event not a place.)

I think most people who come to MA (or MB or wherever) are at the Choice Point. Hope of "things getting better" has decreased over time and is now hovering around zero. Frustration of not knowing what to do to make things better is probably very high. A sense that "nothing works" is present - cuz nothing you do works.

This is a position of action (decision making), but if you hang around here for long, it is probably cuz you tend to be fairly passive - waiting for others to make the decision to do something.

Your choices are to Door #3, split. Or Door #2, give up and just survive - Lizard active all the time. Or Door #1, learn a whole pile of new stuff - stuff, skills, ideas that you currently don't know. Tis a tough place. Been there.

I fear that the longer you wait to make a decision, the more you tend to be sliding into Door #2 - which I sometimes call the Land of the Passive. You can live there forever. My guess is that you are here at Marriage Advocates, precisely because you don't want either Door #2 or Door #3.

I, personally, am all about Door #1.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#61519 - 01/30/11 12:23 PM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: AlTurtle]
Rich57
Advocate
Member

Registered: 11/10/10
Posts: 1251
Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
What is the situation you are thinking of?
Well my wife is at the divorce stage and I am in the University of Life Stage, freezing and submitting.

She is depressed and wants a divorce. I am frozen trying to figure out how to move or not, unable to pull her out of her depression. I do not believe in what she wants but don't have too many choices.


Edited by Rich57 (01/30/11 12:24 PM)
Edit Reason: add sentence

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#61538 - 01/30/11 01:10 PM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: Rich57]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: Rich57
Well my wife is at the divorce stage and I am in the University of Life Stage, freezing and submitting. She is depressed and wants a divorce. I am frozen trying to figure out how to move or not, unable to pull her out of her depression. I do not believe in what she wants but don't have too many choices.


I would put you both in the Choice Point. (The Map is good for this.) If I hear you right, you wanna go through Door #1, but can't do that without a partner. She's thinking that everything is hopeless and is dreaming that a divorce is the only way to go.

Some more information, which you have, would clarify the situation - a bit. Did you both arrive here after just a Power Struggle or have you both been in Door #2 for a while?

The Map suggests, either way, that things are heading in a better direction. From her point of view, divorcing the relationship you've had between you is a really good idea. Also I don't believe she would be thinking of divorce if she believed you were in the University of Life. My guess is that she doesn't. My guess is that she thinks you are stuck and won't change.

Well, since you say you are there at the University of Life, all you have to do is prove it to her. It may take her a time to see that your intentions are more than just skin deep.

(By the way, one of the skills you may learn in the UofLife is about Boundaries as they relate to depression. The principle is that you can never "pull" someone out of depression. They have to do that. Depression is their choice - consciously or unconsciously. Trying to pull them may encourage/enable them to stay there longer.)

You've got a lot of potential here. Tis up to you. Good luck.

(I hope you and others see how useful the Map is at looking at this situation. Tis just my guesses at the moment based on what Rich57 has written, but look how much information is available via the Map. Rich can clarify some, but more he can test out where he is by taking action.)
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#61637 - 01/30/11 05:45 PM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: AlTurtle]
Rich57
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Member

Registered: 11/10/10
Posts: 1251
Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
[Some more information, which you have, would clarify the situation - a bit. Did you both arrive here after just a Power Struggle or have you both been in Door #2 for a while?

It seems like you have nailed it AL, from what you described is exactly the sich.
I guess we have been at door #2 for a year and a half.
My wife blames me for her depression, unconsciously, she will not admit to depression, although she has all the signs.
I am not really pulling her, she is really on her own about that.

Originally Posted By: AL Turtle
Rich can clarify some, but more he can test out where he is by taking action.
What action could you suggest?


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#61671 - 01/30/11 07:10 PM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: Rich57]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: Rich57
I am not really pulling her, she is really on her own about that.

Nothing, I believe in a relationship is all on one person's side or the other. Tis always joint. That's the way I find best to look at it. Her depression is 100% her's to get out of, but you are 50% involved in it. So you can do lots to help her out of it - or not.

Originally Posted By: Rich57
What action could you suggest?

Study topics #1 - #4. Look for the stuff you are doing all wrong. Change it.

You mentioned "blame." That suggests Topic #3 (and #4). Go to work.

Good luck.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#61965 - 01/31/11 12:48 PM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: AlTurtle]
Squeaky Tree
Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 5352
Loc: Not quite here
J and I just had a look at this together. And we had ourselves in the same place.


We think that we are predominantly University of life aspect 1,

We tried to kill each other with the power struggle stage,

We spent quite a while in the 2nd aspect of university of life (got the chronic illness to prove it),

We're pushing on into the realms of vintage love.

To get to vintage love, we need to be consistent, we're doing all the right things but not all the time. It feels stable and although inconsistent we are reliably where we are (if that makes sense).

I don't think we are good at supporting the other person's purpose, we ensure saftey, but I know I am guilty of not maintaining a reliable connection (maybe thyroid related as I lose the ability to focus on more than one thing).

Thanks for highlighting where we are going. Maybe we can discuss the route in more detail this evening.
_________________________
Married 18 years (this year)
DD13 and DS11
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny

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#62064 - 01/31/11 03:30 PM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: Squeaky Tree]
TACticGAL
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 1206
Loc: DFW, TX
I'm definitely in Divorce. #2 as a matter of fact. Trying to decide if starting over involves Ex#2 or not, and moving into the starting over part.
_________________________
Let me not be so vain to think I'm the sole author of my victories and and a victim of my defeats. -- ze frank

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#62099 - 01/31/11 04:17 PM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: AlTurtle]
Rich57
Advocate
Member

Registered: 11/10/10
Posts: 1251
Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Study topics #1 - #4. Look for the stuff you are doing all wrong. Change it.

You mentioned "blame." That suggests Topic #3 (and #4). Go to work.

Good luck.
Ok thanks, I am back to studying all of this and re-reading it again.

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#62344 - 01/31/11 09:46 PM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: Squeaky Tree]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: staytogether
We think that we are predominantly University of life aspect 1,
We spent quite a while in the 2nd aspect of university of life (got the chronic illness to prove it).

To get to vintage love, we need to be consistent, we're doing all the right things but not all the time. It feels stable and although inconsistent we are reliably where we are (if that makes sense).

I don't think we are good at supporting the other person's purpose, we ensure saftey, but I know I am guilty of not maintaining a reliable connection (maybe thyroid related as I lose the ability to focus on more than one thing).


I love your thinking and support you. On the way to Vintage Love my experience is that you stumble and get up and stumble again. Each time a bit further on. I don't think we worked on all issues and skills of the Biological Dream at the same time. But then we didn't know what the BD was. The great news is that I think I've captured the entire set in my notes. It is not endless! But as you struggle with Reliable Membership or etc, etc, my notes may help.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#62350 - 01/31/11 09:54 PM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: TACticGAL]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: theantichick
I'm definitely in Divorce. #2 as a matter of fact. Trying to decide if starting over involves Ex#2 or not, and moving into the starting over part.


The divorce period is for many people so wonderful - for a while. The relief from the struggles (Power Struggles) seems really tangible. Or the delight in waking up from living in Door #2 for a long time seems so powerful.

By the way, many people have more times through the cycle that they think. I believe a "marriage" with Romantic Love and Power Struggle and Choice Point involves only about 6 months of living together. A traditional Marriage ceremony doesn't seem to be necessary at all.

Still if you are moving through Divorce #2 there is a whole lot of data about what you could be learning available to you. Each past relationship presents lots and lots of "wrong alleys" you have been down. Wonderful stuff. But I suggest you don't push at learning for a good while. Rest. Tis my advice.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#62676 - 02/01/11 11:46 AM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: AlTurtle]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
So now do some thinking/writing exercises to make your Relationship Journey real. Start with the MAP of Relationships.

ROMANTIC PHASE
Use the map to put dates on when you first fell in love, each time. Remember the rule of six months to define a relationship. Put the name of your partner on that date.

Look at the joy you felt during those times and savour it. Look at how strong those feelings were and give a little effort to defining what you thought/dreamed the future was going to be like.

POWER STRUGGLE
Now put dates on when the fights started - the Power Struggles.

Look at your tactics and your partner's. List them. Don't analyze the whys, just write down the whats. Consider where you learned your tactics. Who in your family used those same or similar tactics? Who were the teachers?

Also who taught your partner their tactics?

And for one bit of a twist, who in your family taught you to profoundly dislike your partner's tactics? to profoundly want someone like that to change and become "nicer."

Lastly, can you see how those fights were misguided attempts of get Love back into your relationship? Try some sentences of the form "When I yelled at him, what I was really trying was to get him to notice me." Or "When I was quiet, I just wanted us to be peaceful together." Or "When I did what she wanted, I just wanted her to be happy." I think true love is so close to us during the Power Struggle, but seems so far away.

CHOICE POINT
Now consider how this all ended, the fighting, each time. The treats of being together reach high peaks. Exhaustion is high. Well, you've been putting a lot of energy into tactics that don't work.

DOOR #1
Some try for marriage counseling. Some read books. Some show up here - online. I think of this as a wise foretaste of the way to Vintage Love. All about learning to do things better. The people who dig in and learn like crazy seem the lucky ones.

DOOR #3 - Divorce
The most common is that people just walk away - Door #3. Remember the Six Month rule cuz probably most people "divorce" who have never been technically/legally married. I still call it Divorce.

People say, "It shouldn't be this hard." They blame each other. They run.

This walking away really hurts. The only way to avoid the tearing wretching pain of this splitting up, is to find a new partner immediately.

Since most people are divorcing in order to avoid the conflict of the Power Struggle, most people experience this as a delicious quiet time that over many years becomes a too quiet time. Some people get "lonely" sooner and some later. But it will come.

Tell your stories.

DOOR #2
If you didn't walk away, the most common is Door #2. Both people shift into business with survival and give up the wonder of the Love of each other. Men often go to their prime addiction - work. Women often go to their prime addiction - children. Whatever, the distance grows on both sides and compared to Romantic Love and the dream, this is a period of walking dead. Can last for years and years.

What was your style of surviving? What was your partner's? Look for lots of Lizard behaviors and look for signs of depression and illness. Learn your patterns and your partner's.

Now look for what events brought you out of this walking-death. Falling in love with an outsider - affairs, are often a clue to waking up. An explosion of temper enough to bring the cops sometimes does it. Just learning and reawakening to what you have left behind (love) may do it.

Mind you it is possible that your partner wakes up first. I think many of you online you call that other person the Betraying Spouse or Walk Away Partner or some such derogatory labels. But I think you guys are completely missing the point.

Waking up is good!

Whatever works as a wake up call for you, and people often wake up many times before going back to sleep, people arrive back at the Choice Point.

UNIVERSITY OF LIFE
On the other side of Door #1 is a lengthy period of working and stumbling together to learn how to make an ideal relationship and to unlearn all the skills you have that suck.

Sandra and I stumbled through this. Some books helped. Some teachers helped. Individual therapy helped, too. But being really stubborn and determined was the most helpful thing. And the awareness of a tiny glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. A tiny sense that things were a bit better than yesterday. A humble awareness that I was not as stupid as I was last time I faced this situation.

Also there is a sense of "We fixed this and now that other thing comes up." Kind of like pealing an onion, one layer at a time. What layer are you pealing? What layer is behind you?

I've seen a lot of stories. Each is fun or painful depending on where you are. Your stories are yours and really only need to be shared with each other. But we can encourage our friends.

Enjoy your story.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#62684 - 02/01/11 11:56 AM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: AlTurtle]
TACticGAL
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 1206
Loc: DFW, TX
Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Originally Posted By: theantichick
I'm definitely in Divorce. #2 as a matter of fact. Trying to decide if starting over involves Ex#2 or not, and moving into the starting over part.


The divorce period is for many people so wonderful - for a while. The relief from the struggles (Power Struggles) seems really tangible. Or the delight in waking up from living in Door #2 for a long time seems so powerful.

By the way, many people have more times through the cycle that they think. I believe a "marriage" with Romantic Love and Power Struggle and Choice Point involves only about 6 months of living together. A traditional Marriage ceremony doesn't seem to be necessary at all.

Still if you are moving through Divorce #2 there is a whole lot of data about what you could be learning available to you. Each past relationship presents lots and lots of "wrong alleys" you have been down. Wonderful stuff. But I suggest you don't push at learning for a good while. Rest. Tis my advice.


That's my goal. I have a lot on my plate right now, and just need a break. I'd though about dating, but honestly just don't have the energy or drive right now. Not to mention because of finances my ex is still in my house, so I'm not feeling any of the separation and relief yet.
_________________________
Let me not be so vain to think I'm the sole author of my victories and and a victim of my defeats. -- ze frank

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#62767 - 02/01/11 01:20 PM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: TACticGAL]
CajunRose
Member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 9381
Loc: TX
STBXH and I were in a power struggle for a long time. We hit a choice point 5 years ago and went through Door #1. But we never made it all the way to the University of Life - we applied some bandaids, stopped peeling the onion, and ended up back in the power struggle last year.

I don't know if I would have woken up if he hadn't left - I was (willfully?) blind to what was missing - I guess I had essentially chosen Door #2. So I am glad to have been shaken awake, to finally understand that it's a lot easier to get "vintage love" than it appeared. Glad to know that there's more out there - to get AND to give - than crumbs.

Once I woke up (again), I tried to choose Door #1, because this time I was determined to get to through the University of Life and into vintage love - I'm inhaling books, websites, and other reference material on what makes good relationships - teaching myself the skills I will need to be a good romantic partner.

STBXH chose Door #3, and since for now we're pretty tethered together, that's the one I get too. That's one of the hardest things to deal with - having your eyes opened, seeing where the door that you want is located and learning the steps to get there and then having someone else slam it shut and lock it.

Sometime next year I may be ready to start looking to find the romantic phase again...and this time I have a much better idea of where the doors are located and how to get to the one I want. And that, I suppose, is as much success as I can hope for right now.

I've been really grateful for this perspective:
Originally Posted By: alturtule
Mind you it is possible that your partner wakes up first. I think many of you online you call that other person the Betraying Spouse or Walk Away Partner or some such derogatory labels. But I think you guys are completely missing the point.

Waking up is good!

ETA: The angry and hurt part of me wants to think of STBXH in the derogatory terms - he's a coward, a quitter, a selfish man. So I keep reading your work and remind myself that he's hurting too. That he doesn't ever want to go back to what we had - and that NEITHER DO I. The biggest differences between us, I think, are hope and perspective. I am trying to see his perspective, to understand why he did what he did and why I did what I did, and I can see hope for change. He's not trying or not able to see my perspective, and he doesn't have any hope left.


Edited by CajunRose (02/01/11 01:25 PM)
_________________________
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You can't direct the wind, but you can adjust your sails.

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#62828 - 02/01/11 02:24 PM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: CajunRose]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Great bit of thinking and sharing, CajunRose.

Originally Posted By: CajunRose
Sometime next year I may be ready to start looking to find the romantic phase again...and this time I have a much better idea of where the doors are located and how to get to the one I want. And that, I suppose, is as much success as I can hope for right now.

I've been really grateful for this perspective:


That is all I have and am sharing - a perspective.

Originally Posted By: CajunRose
Originally Posted By: alturtle
Mind you it is possible that your partner wakes up first. I think many of you online you call that other person the Betraying Spouse or Walk Away Partner or some such derogatory labels. But I think you guys are completely missing the point.Waking up is good!


ETA: The angry and hurt part of me wants to think of STBXH in the derogatory terms - he's a coward, a quitter, a selfish man. So I keep reading your work and remind myself that he's hurting too.

In our culture, I believe you can vent anger at people who "deserve it." We used to call this a "guilt-free hostility object." Thus people with lots of anger are often needing to point at how bad other people are. Tis nice to unload all that anger. I recall the seductive power of Hitler - the Jews deserve it. The Japs deserve it. The Krauts deserve it. The Commies deserve it. All men.... All women... The teens... the Democrats... the Teapartiers... the Muslims, etc.etc. Gad, turn on Rush Limbaugh or his like and watch the core of fascism at its glorious best. He makes lots of money giving people reasons to fight and villify. And this isn't new. Find it in the old world, in the Bible, etc. Being surrounded by this tone, watch how people online love to pile on.

And yet, "You are told to love your neighbor, but I say love your enemy." Jesus was cool, and right in your face. And, needless to say, right on for relationship issues. I've found it simple to say that "people always marry their worst nightmare." It is always a temptation for me, when angry, to villify Sandra. Remembering that she is doing her best at every second, keeps me out of that camp.

Back to your quote. I wonder, when your STBXH is looking like "a coward, a quitter, a selfish man," who he really is.

Originally Posted By: CajunRose
That he doesn't ever want to go back to what we had - and that NEITHER DO I.

No comment.

Originally Posted By: CajunRose
The biggest differences between us, I think, are hope and perspective. I am trying to see his perspective, to understand why he did what he did and why I did what I did, and I can see hope for change. He's not trying or not able to see my perspective, and he doesn't have any hope left.


I wonder how hopeless he sees the task to understand you. Hmmm.

By the way, one glorious piece of wisdom of the map, tis much cheaper to fix the relationship with the "dork" you have than to find another one and then have to fix it.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#62848 - 02/01/11 02:45 PM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: AlTurtle]
Rich57
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Registered: 11/10/10
Posts: 1251
Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
By the way, one glorious piece of wisdom of the map, tis much cheaper to fix the relationship with the "dork" you have than to find another one and then have to fix it.
Totally agree to this but both parties have to do their share. CR can want to fix her 50% but she can't fix his 50%.

Or did I miss something?

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#62965 - 02/01/11 05:15 PM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: Rich57]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: Rich57
Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
By the way, one glorious piece of wisdom of the map, tis much cheaper to fix the relationship with the "dork" you have than to find another one and then have to fix it.
Totally agree to this but both parties have to do their share. CR can want to fix her 50% but she can't fix his 50%.

Or did I miss something?


I thought the same thing for quite some years and then found that it's not true. I've written on this. It takes only one to make a marriage, two to make a divorce. The title is kinda catchy and seems crazy, but not so much.

The way I see it, both want Vintage Love. It is programmed into their soul/biology by someone pretty potent. They arrive at the Choice Point frustrated as hell, still wanting Vintage Love, but having lost "Hope" that they can ever get it - their partner will never change and grow up.

If one starts to actually move toward Vintage Love, in a significant way, the other now has hope, and will join as the "day follows the night follows the day."

Sure it takes two. But the trick is to do your part when your partner is stumbling or forgetting. If you yell at them or threaten them when they stumble, you are no where near heading toward Vintage Love. Neither if you submit to their clumsiness will you be on your way.

All you have to do is lead, not push. During the University of Life, sometimes one is leading, sometimes the other. And for bits of time both are forgetting altogether. Those are kinda bumpy times.

This is what appeared to me as a surprise and a pleasant one. I missed it completely for years.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#63303 - 02/01/11 11:12 PM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: AlTurtle]
CajunRose
Member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 9381
Loc: TX
Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Back to your quote. I wonder, when your STBXH is looking like "a coward, a quitter, a selfish man," who he really is.

When I'm being objective and honest? I think he's a hurt, confused, lonely man who is just as mad at me as I am at him. He's still the man I fell in love with ... the man who still loves me (throughout all of this he's said repeatedly that he doesn't WANT me, but has never said he doesn't love me - and I've asked)... but he is lashing out because he hasn't learned yet that we should stop doing the stuff that doesn't work, and causing more pain doesn't work.

I've lost count of the number of times I've read that article on "one to make a marriage, two to make a divorce". Every time I get more out of it, and most of the actions I've taken in the last 4 weeks or so have been inspired by/drawn from this article and its companions. I'm doing my best to lead. It seems harder to do when you are already separated.

Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
I wonder how hopeless he sees the task to understand you. Hmmm.

I think right now he's totally confused, which was my goal. crazy He can no longer predict with accuracy how I'll react, and he's gradually gaining some insight into why I did some of the things I did (I'm feeding that to him very slowly).

In the last month we've had a few interactions where I thought for sure his lizard would go bonkers yet I didn't see any external signs of stress. (I've gotten good at identifying the "OMG, SHE'S AT IT AGAIN" look, which is an indicator of how bad things were.) Hopefully that means I'm getting "safer", that I'm becoming more successful at implementing some of the skills I'm trying to master. I've seen a few glimmers of interest/response from STBXH for some of the seeds I've sown, but so far he has not been motivated to follow through. It's like he moves one step towards me, realizes what he's done, and scurries back again. Which means I have to find the precarious balance between pushing and leading/strategic kick in the rear. I'm probably erring too far on the not-pushing side, but I pushed way too hard a few months ago, and his lizard needs to heal from that trauma.

I think I have a time issue right now. Divorce here is relatively quick, and we're on the home stretch. Although, when I told my IC last week that I expect the divorce to be final in 4 weeks, she laughed and told me that I said the same thing 4 weeks ago...and now, a week later, we haven't made much progress, so I'll once again predict 4 weeks from now. This may mean I'm no longer pushing him further away. Whether he decides to come closer is another story, and I think he's been much too hurt to actually stop the divorce at this point. His lizard will likely need more time to feel that I am safe again. So the bigger question for me is whether, after it's all final, I can get over that hurt and keep leading - and whether he'll be responsive once he has his "freedom" - or whether I give up and start over.

Thanks, Al. I keep repeating myself, but I do truly appreciate your perspective. Combining this with the books I've found that speak to our particular problems has been invaluable to me in figuring out how to cope and what knowledge I need to pursue, so that eventually I get to vintage love.
_________________________
Current spouse: Night. D10, D9, S7

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#63475 - 02/02/11 10:08 AM Re: Topic 5: "The Road to Love" - Building Trust. [Re: CajunRose]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
While you are working at the "leading" bit, I encourage you to remember that he has to make it to Vintage Love along with you. While you look at your journey ahead, you can spend a bit of time thinking of his.

You might lead the way into discussions about "what would our relationship look like if it were perfect to both of us."

As you use the term, I think, "hurt" refers to loss: things, people, dreams that you have lost. Life is full of losses and thus I think people need to be good at grieving those losses - kinda a mix of validating the loss and actual grieving. I think that everytime it rains, nature reminds us of how much we need to grieve. I mechanistically think of grieving as "metabolizing loss."

Keep plugging away and sharing with others. Remember that you are leading others, too.

_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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