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#49997 - 01/12/11 04:22 PM Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
This the fourth great topic, and from both Sandra and my points of view, this was the hardest to figure out and the most valuable. (When I started this series on Marriage Advocates, this was the competing topic to be #1. Lizard won out.) This is the companion piece to Topic #3 on Bullying. Both seem to be about the nature of our Cortexes and the topics, I think, really go side-by-side.

It took Sandra and me roughly 5 years, after we started working with and teaching "Imago" to come to resolve the issue of Validation. Twas a rough period, but then it certainly had been rough before. After grasping the solution to Validation, all topics became more smooth sailing.

Please be alerted that in this topic you will probably notice that I have changed/used some critical words: making sense, sense, understand, validate and PreValidation. The first four terms I have replaced what I saw as flacid definitions, with new solid, take-to-the-bank, definitions.

The last word I invented. I think PreValidation describes, in a practical way, other interesting but abstract terms such as "Unconditional Positive Regard" or the Christain "Good News." It's application drives my spiritual belief system. I think it the core of building/repairing self-esteem, and I think it the first proof of a good IC.

With these new definitions, I feel I can wrap up the major topics on my Whiteboard, for I believe they all link together into a single pattern of being human and connecting easily with other humans.

The prime paper to read is called Diversity and PreValidation and has already been noted on MA by Larry about a month ago, where he called it the Iceberg Equation.

Sandra and I simply refer to this topic as Icebergs.





Edited by AlTurtle (01/12/11 04:26 PM)
Edit Reason: Add Pix.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
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#50068 - 01/12/11 06:05 PM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle]
Vibrissa
Member

Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 930
Loc: Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
Al, I've been reading around your site for the last couple of days, and I keep coming back to this image you've posted. The icebergs. It really resonates with me - it feels comfortable, I 'get it'.

Is it possible to lower the second barrier - the Layer of Unknown, to understand more of yourself?

I live my life in my head, if you get what I mean. I feel like a little tunneler, with a snowsuit on and one of those nifty flashlight helmets and a pick axe, picking away down at that unknown area, chipping at the rocks, sorting, cataloging, studying the items I find, filing them away for later when I can put them together with something else and go ahhh - THAT'S why.

Every so often I emerge from a tunnel and excitedly share my discoveries with DH. He listens, we share, we examine together - and we're closer.... and then I go back in.

Maybe I'm crazy, who knows... but I keep coming back to this picture. It fits.

Anyway - back to reading.


Edited by Vibrissa (01/12/11 06:06 PM)
_________________________
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#50102 - 01/12/11 06:49 PM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Vibrissa]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: Vibrissa
Is it possible to lower the second barrier - the Layer of Unknown, to understand more of yourself?


Absolutely. And it is one of the useful features of the Iceberg image.

The whole process of getting to know each other involves sharing what you have and digging deeper or tunneling, as you call it. I think of this as a mining operation, with drills. The most powerful drill tool has three parts: a) the belief that the answer is there, b) patience, and c) curiosity. PreValidation takes care of tool, part a. Practicing meditation, yoga, anything from the Far East (heck, the Rosary) will teach patience. But there is not substitute for durable curiosity.

Somewhere or other I had a chart, probably on my computer, in which I suggest that when you meet, fall in love, you know about .25% about each other (combined unconscious and private area). When you get to deciding to leave cuz you've been in the Power Struggle long enough, I think you know about 1% about each other (combined...). When you reach Vintage Love you probably know 90% to 98% about each other - certainly all the stuff you need to know for your Lizards to consider each other fully a source of safety - fully predictable.

And so I think that in a Vintage Love relationship, of high intimacy, both lines are way the hell down at the bottom. Sometimes it seems as if the only thing I don't know about Sandra is what she dreamt last night. Or her me.

You asked about lowering the line. One additional thought is that I've found you can also raise that line. The most fascinating way is chemically by using THC or marijuana. Another is a cultural skill of avoiding "going deep" - called by a particularly awful name, anti-intraception. When someone says, "there is not reason for you to do that", I think they are choosing to not drill. When someone says, " I don't know ," I think they are choosing not to drill.

Thanks for sharing.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
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#50240 - 01/12/11 11:21 PM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle]
Vibrissa
Member

Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 930
Loc: Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
Quote:
And so I think that in a Vintage Love relationship, of high intimacy, both lines are way the hell down at the bottom. Sometimes it seems as if the only thing I don't know about Sandra is what she dreamt last night. Or her me.


Interestingly enough, sometimes I emerge from the tunnel with a prize kernal of knowledge, and beamingly present it to my husband and say LOOK! And he smiles and says "Of course, I knew that. X, Y, and Z are part of that as well." And more lightbulbs go off in my head. Somehow he has better insight into my iceberg than I do at times.

From your article:

Quote:
Well, I want to tell you that a person never makes anyone elses sense. They always make their own.


This is something I have been dwelling on lately. Last year I discovered I was doing things that were eroding the intimacy between my husband and I. To use a Marriage Builder term - I was Disrespectfully Judging my husband.

For me this behavior was motivated by the basic belief that I was smarter, more educated, more well read, whatever, than him. This created - what you would term - a Master/Slave relationship, which effectively killed our Intimacy.

The key, for me, to eliminate this destructive behavior, was to realize that there is MY reality, and there is HIS reality. Both are equal and of value.

I've been working to eliminate the idea of 'one truth'. There is THE TRUTH - the objective, actual truth, that I think no one but God sees, and there is everyone else's individual truths. If my husband and I go to watch a movie together, there is the movie, as it exists, unwatched, but then there is My Perception of it, My Truth of the movie. And there is My Husband's Perception of it, His Truth. Or - as you would term it, Sense.

My truth is a reflection of the object (the movie I saw) and the filter through which I saw it - my 'iceberg'. As is my husband's.

The fun part is AFTER the movie, where we share and discuss each other's truths, and thus see the patterns within each other's icebergs that emerge in the discussion.

Letting go of the idea that My Truth was THE TRUTH has been very liberating. I've found that I'm more ok saying I'm wrong, or I don't know the answer to that, admitting I have limits.

Before, the need to be RIGHT and have the TRUTH made it so when my husband asked a question I didn't know the answer to, in order to seem all-knowing, I'd conjecture an answer, and present it as fact, creating tension within myself, creating a barrier between my husband and I.

Because I only have to know MY TRUTH, or as you term it MY SENSE, I am free to explore my husband's sense.

And slowly, the dynamic in our marriage has shifted - back to what it was when we first married. What you describe as friend/friend.

Sometimes I laugh at our conversation. We fall into Master talk, and then caveat ourselves into Dialogue, often in the most circuitous ways.

EX:

W: It's cold in here. Are you cold?
H: No, I'm actually quite comfortable.
W: Oh, well I was just saying that I'm cold.
H: Would you like me to get you a blanket?
W: Actually do you mind if I bump up the heater?
H: Yeah I'm ok with that.

How much faster to just say "I feel cold, are you cold? How do you feel about turning on the heater?"

We have these conversations all the time. We seem to constantly start and restart conversations as we try to navigate these new waters. Right now we're full of "I didn't mean that, what I meant was ....." "Let me say that again" "Oh I sounded bossy then, what I meant to say was."

I now realize is what we're doing is retraining ourselves, slowly letting our speach reflect the shift from slave/master to friend/friend.

And this brings me to validation.

Because I accept that our senses will not be the same, in order for me to see below the waterline of my husband's iceberg - I have to acknowledge that his sense is valid. Demanding his sense be mine, that his iceberg match mine created an environment in which he did not feel safe existing. What he was willing to share of himself, grew smaller and smaller.

Validation is the key to creating safety. So you feel safe letting someone below the layer of privacy. If you let someone into that layer, and they DON'T validate, they're going to trash what they see there. That's what I did to my husband over the course of several years. By validating my husband, he knows that I will recognize the value of what is his Layer of Privacy. I don't have to agree, I just have to acknowledge it's value and importance to my husband. I have to respect it if I want to be allowed in - if I want intimacy.

Wow... .thanks for letting me hash all this out here.

Thank you for the articles - they've given me plenty to ponder.


Edited by Vibrissa (01/12/11 11:33 PM)
_________________________
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DH: Kenichi 33
M: 8/2005
DD 6 yrs
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#50395 - 01/13/11 10:11 AM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Vibrissa]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
A great rumination that, to me, was clear and accurate at all points. Thanks for posting it.

One addition to your thinking. My partner sees my behavior from the outside, I from the inside. She can notice things and build theories about the "whys" or about "my sense." I may still not know about my behavior or about her "theories."

My behavior (whether I know about it or not) makes sense. My partner is trying to guess at it (Her Lizard is pushing her to turn my behavior into Predictive Information for her.)

Her guess and her observations can be very useful in me getting to know myself better. Her guesses may be far off from my understanding of myself. If we both share, we can rapidly improve Trust in our relationship. (If she shares her theory as a fact, then we'll get distracted by the MasterTalk.)

Gentle is the way to go, I believe.

Great sharing.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#50755 - 01/13/11 05:00 PM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle]
TACticGAL
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 1206
Loc: DFW, TX
I love this concept of icebergs, and relate so much to it. I also was left thinking that this is what real friendships are about, is helping each other discover things about themselves they didn't know.
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#50757 - 01/13/11 05:04 PM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: TACticGAL]
Amadahy
Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 3472
i have often joked with people that i dont have hidden depths. I dont have much of an iceberg under the surfice.

The line is "its not that I lack depth - its just that the water is very very clear"...

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#51021 - 01/14/11 09:06 AM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Amadahy]
OurHouse
Member

Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 3027
As you unfold each concept Al...they all begin to make more sense to me. (and yes, I have been reading on your website. I just really enjoy discussing them here!)

The iceberg thing is liberating and sad to me at the same time.

It's liberating because, like Vibrissa said...I can see how my husband and I are engaging in master/slave talk (switching roles back and forth) and validation below the water line is NOT occurring. And it's yet another indication of just HOW FAR AWAY we've moved from each other. I'm not sure we can ever regain any closeness, but that's another topic for another thread.


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#51024 - 01/14/11 09:13 AM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle]
TimeHeals
Member

Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 3931
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: Al Turtle
Her guess and her observations can be very useful in me getting to know myself better. Her guesses may be far off from my understanding of myself. If we both share, we can rapidly improve Trust in our relationship. (If she shares her theory as a fact, then we'll get distracted by the MasterTalk.)

Gentle is the way to go, I believe.


Fantastic observation grin
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Mend the broken, make strong the weak and vanquish the evil.

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#51048 - 01/14/11 10:00 AM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: OurHouse]
Vibrissa
Member

Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 930
Loc: Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
Originally Posted By: OurHouse
I'm not sure we can ever regain any closeness, but that's another topic for another thread.


Maybe this thread COULD be relevant. I've noticed that relationships are fed by cycles. It seems that a friend/friend relationship leads to validation, which leads to a better friend/friend relationship which leads to more validation.

Perhaps it can start Validation -> friend/friend -> VALIDATION -> FRIEND/FRIEND

Right now, in you're marriage OH, you are M/S and Not Validating. Are you not validating because you are M/S or are you M/S because you're not validating. Probably a little bit of both, hence being stuck in the negative cycle.

At some point, it's going to have to change.

But change is scary - because it means giving up some of the power you can possibly gain when it is YOUR turn to be Master, and it means you gotta open up a little bit, let him into that line of privacy, when you KNOW he won't validate it.

So how do you stop the negative cycle and begin a positive one?

I think thats the question/ issue you've been trying to resolve all along.

Because the negative cycle offers you protection, and there is no guarantee you can make the shift to the positive cycle and your husband will actually join you. It's 'safer' to stay where you are.

But it affords nothing of what you long for: peace, intimacy, joy.

Perhaps, instead of working to shift to friend/friend, you start with validation as a path to understanding.

What has happened when you work to Validate your husband OH on a consistent basis? Have you tried before? (this is an innocent question, I don't know the answer and I'm not trying to imply anything)
_________________________
Moi: 33
DH: Kenichi 33
M: 8/2005
DD 6 yrs
DS 3 yrs
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#51092 - 01/14/11 10:49 AM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Vibrissa]
OurHouse
Member

Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 3027
Quote:
So how do you stop the negative cycle and begin a positive one? I think thats the question/ issue you've been trying to resolve all along.


Yep.

Quote:
Because the negative cycle offers you protection, and there is no guarantee you can make the shift to the positive cycle and your husband will actually join you. It's 'safer' to stay where you are.


Yep. Yep.

Quote:
But it affords nothing of what you long for: peace, intimacy, joy.


Yep. Yep. Yep.

Quote:
Perhaps, instead of working to shift to friend/friend, you start with validation as a path to understanding.


Need to figure out how to go about doing that. Or even if I can?

[quote]What has happened when you work to Validate your husband OH on a consistent basis? Have you tried before? (this is an innocent question, I don't know the answer and I'm not trying to imply anything)[/quote}

A bunch of things. I get stuck/mired in my own shyte: resentment, anger, sadness and frustration. Or I deliver the validation poorly and/or it's received poorly, thereby starting an argument, which raises my lizard's hackles and I retreat.

Quick example from this AM: Things are rather strained around here....I'm sick of being the sole wage earner, sick of encountering AOs, sick of not having time/money to pursue any other interests than basic survival. I have effectively shut him out. But at the same time, things are tenuous at work and I get nervous on days like today, when I have to go in for a bi-weekly meeting (I usually work at home), that something awful is going to happen and I find out our department is being cut, etc. He knows I'm very anxious about this. I said something about it this AM.

His reply: Well, I sure *hope* it doesn't turn out that way for you.

Not exactly the reassurance I was hoping for.

Later, in the kitchen, I tried to non-verbally communicate something. And I put my head on his shoulder. Now, I have no right to expect anything...I've pretty much shut him out for the past few weeks.

His response when I did that: "What?!!"

I withdrew. Prime opportunity to maybe verbalize something meaningful and I had no clue what to do.

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#51113 - 01/14/11 11:20 AM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: OurHouse]
Vibrissa
Member

Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 930
Loc: Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
DH and I have had times where we Validate 'improperly'. Happened just recently. Dealing with the job loss, I needed certain things from him - to hear certain words, but I never told him. So when I came to him with worries, he attempted to sooth me, which made me upset because I felt invalidated. Now I went about expressing my need poorly, I had a mealt down.

The problem is, his intentions were good. He was being loving. It just wasn't what I needed right then. That was my fault, not his.

Quote:
Or I deliver the validation poorly and/or it's received poorly, thereby starting an argument,


Why does it have to devolve in an argument? Any attempt at validation is a GOOD thing. It is giving and loving towards your spouse. That shouldn't have to be defended. If the invalidation wasn't what your husband needs - it is on him to TELL you what he needs. If he doesn't or can't, that isn't your fault.

"I'm sorry I didn't validate you the way you need. I was motivated by the best intentions, would you tell me how I could have done better?"

If he begins to attack/argue, you withdraw physically.

"I won't be attacked for trying to love and care for you. I'm leaving now so I won't argue."

There is a phrase on another board. Don't JADE, Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain. While I don't think it is applicable to all situations, it can be helpful. You don't have to argue if the validation was poor, or received poorly. Ask how to make it better, but you don't have to defend yourself. If he takes it poorly or as an affront, make it clear that wasn't your intention, that you were intending to be loving - but don't let it devolve into an argument.

And in this morning's situation, your first interaction is similar what DH and I have been going through, what I described above. I have fears, and need reassurance. DH attempts to say the right words, but they aren't what I need. In my case, I eventually blew up and had a melt down. What I should have done, what I intend to say next time, and what I'm going to suggest to you is say "Thank you for that. What I really need to hear right now is x, y, z. Could you tell me that?"

Now - it may take some of the affect out of it, that you had to ask for it, but there is no way for anyone to know what we need if we don't tell them. But if we do tell them, over time they'll 'get it' and won't need the instruction.

Quote:
I withdrew. Prime opportunity to maybe verbalize something meaningful and I had no clue what to do.


Yes it was, but you don't feel safe doing so. It takes a lot of courage to step out there. Because even letting someone know that we need validation, what that validation looks like is providing a glimpse below the line. We run the risk of putting ourselves out there, vulnerable, with the possibility that they won't respond with care. That they will chose NOT to validate in the way we've asked, that they may begin to debate and argue.

But the fact is, you have to speak if you ever expect to get what you want.

When he says 'What?!?" You say 'I need a,b,c from you right now. Your attitude is hurting me."

Again, there is no need to argue about this. Don't let it devolve into an argument. Don't let him attack you.

I think this is the key behind Drive by Honesty, which if I recall correctly, you don't/ can't do. The idea that we share a truth, and leave the response up to our spouse, we let go the idea that that truth should have x, y, z affect.

It's scary, and makes us vulnerable. But if you never take the step, you can never get where you want.

You may not be ready to do it yet. Maybe someday you will be.

Perhaps practice in your head for now. Start thinking of what your response WOULD be if you felt safe saying so. Try working on finding the clue for what to do... and maybe the words will start coming out eventually.
_________________________
Moi: 33
DH: Kenichi 33
M: 8/2005
DD 6 yrs
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#51128 - 01/14/11 11:40 AM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: OurHouse]
Amadahy
Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 3472
Originally Posted By: OurHouse
Later, in the kitchen, I tried to non-verbally communicate something. And I put my head on his shoulder. Now, I have no right to expect anything...I've pretty much shut him out for the past few weeks.

His response when I did that: "What?!!"

I withdrew. Prime opportunity to maybe verbalize something meaningful and I had no clue what to do.


Often I will try to touch my husband or hug him etc and he will respond this way.

often it is "What do you want?"
"Why do you want to hug me"

or the worst one

"What did you do NOW" = always implying that my touch is a prelude to me revealing that I cheated on him again.


I always answer honestly...."I am touching you because I like to touch you."
"I am hugging you because i enjoy your arms around me"

Some days I think - fine I will stop touching you if you are going to push me away....but that will only hurt our marriage

and for me...not touching hurts as much as being pushed away...and if I withdraw that hurts the marriage...

so for me the choice is to stay the course...do not let his negative behavior affect my positive behavior.

I will not let his anger change me.

Sometimes I feel like that person in a boxing match who keeps getting knocked down and just doesn't have the sense to stop getting up. But I do...
I will keep getting up and being who I should be and want to be...regardless of what he does.

I will not let him change me.

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#51131 - 01/14/11 11:44 AM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Amadahy]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: SisteReed
i have often joked with people that i dont have hidden depths. I dont have much of an iceberg under the surfice.

The line is "its not that I lack depth - its just that the water is very very clear"...


I hear the joke, and I have actually met this once.

Met a gal who was free as the snow, open and joyful. I couldn't believe it. I kept probing her until I could begin to see in her what I made up in my imagination had to be in her. When she began to doubt herself, I momentarily felt vindicated. Now I look back at the horror of my own cruel behavior. I think she was too real for my understanding of people, and I had to crush her. Ohh that was a long time ago.

My common experiences are about the many ways people have really deep stuff, their Lizards have learned to hide it, and their friend's Lizards keep from noticing it. Kind of like hiding your "candle." Sad.

I am much more a believer in "Let your light shine before all...." I am much more a soldier in the "protect everyone's candles brigade."
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#51135 - 01/14/11 11:50 AM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: OurHouse]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: OurHouse
I can see how my husband and I are engaging in master/slave talk (switching roles back and forth) and validation below the water line is NOT occurring. And it's yet another indication of just HOW FAR AWAY we've moved from each other. I'm not sure we can ever regain any closeness, but that's another topic for another thread.


My teacher used to say, "Step One in solving any problem is becoming aware of the problem."

I believe we are designed to be close, but are trained to be distant. Next step...

Sending encouragement.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#51137 - 01/14/11 11:52 AM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Amadahy]
Vibrissa
Member

Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 930
Loc: Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
Originally Posted By: SisteReed
so for me the choice is to stay the course...do not let his negative behavior affect my positive behavior.

I will not let his anger change me.


Wow, SR. Powerful stuff. Thank you for sharing this. Would that I had this strong of personal integrity. This strong a character.
_________________________
Moi: 33
DH: Kenichi 33
M: 8/2005
DD 6 yrs
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#51156 - 01/14/11 12:04 PM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Amadahy]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Please check into my definitions of Validation and particularly PreValidation. They are simple actions/skills.

You can always PreValidate your partner, even when he/she does what you think is "bad stuff." But eventually, you can even PreValidate yourself when you don't do what you wanted to do. That way leads to self-esteem, I firmly believe.

One of my male clients, as he was making considerable progress reconnecting over years of trouble, said, "When in doubt, I just Validate the shinola out of her!"

By the way, I believe the Lizard loooooves Validation.

I think that what makes it scary at first is that it is "at first." In a way, if it is scary, celebrate that your learning something, and shed a tear for the "you" that experience in-validation for so much of your life.

Just a thought.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#51166 - 01/14/11 12:20 PM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle]
Amadahy
Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 3472
Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Originally Posted By: SisteReed
i have often joked with people that i dont have hidden depths. I dont have much of an iceberg under the surfice.

The line is "its not that I lack depth - its just that the water is very very clear"...


I hear the joke, and I have actually met this once.

Met a gal who was free as the snow, open and joyful. I couldn't believe it. I kept probing her until I could begin to see in her what I made up in my imagination had to be in her. When she began to doubt herself, I momentarily felt vindicated. Now I look back at the horror of my own cruel behavior. I think she was too real for my understanding of people, and I had to crush her. Ohh that was a long time ago.

My common experiences are about the many ways people have really deep stuff, their Lizards have learned to hide it, and their friend's Lizards keep from noticing it. Kind of like hiding your "candle." Sad.

I am much more a believer in "Let your light shine before all...." I am much more a soldier in the "protect everyone's candles brigade."


I think I am like this girl you met.
My H didnt believe that was me. He began accusing me of cheating on him years and years ago...accusing me of doing things I never thought of doing. Additionally he introduced into our sex life fantasies I didnt want or like...things that devalued me as a person. We fell into a classic master/slave routine that we still live for the most part. I became what he thought I was for a time....what he still thinks I am. This isn't saying my ONS is his fault...I made the choice...I allowed myself to change to this other person. I am responsible for what I did. But I can see the why and the how was in part ...due to his attempt to make me who he thought I was...or who he wanted. Part of this was due to our age difference I think (I was 18 when we got married and he was 28)...

But I am rediscovering the girl who likes to play in the rain and dance in puddles and says what she thinks. I am becoming me again ...but a stronger me. A me who likes who I am and will not allow other peoples thoughts or fears to change me.


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#51195 - 01/14/11 01:07 PM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Amadahy]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: SisteReed
I think I am like this girl you met.
My H didnt believe that was me.


Not sure. She would be about 70 now, I think? smile

Sounds as if your H was more like I was. Probably raised the way I was. Hope he's learned some since then. Well, we all gotta grow up.....or die first.

Originally Posted By: SisteReed
But I am rediscovering the girl who likes to play in the rain and dance in puddles and says what she thinks. I am becoming me again ...but a stronger me.


Wonderful. Rediscover and add to her that strength she lacked. And while you are at it, PreValidate her for not having that strength, and for the interesting things (ONS ??) you chose to do along the way to here. You will probably find some of the bottom part of your Iceberg useful, here.

Originally Posted By: SisteReed
A me who likes who I am and will not allow other peoples thoughts or fears to change me.


or "will not again change myself because of other's thoughts or fears."

Congratulations.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#51205 - 01/14/11 01:19 PM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle]
Amadahy
Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 3472
Not sure I would call a one night stand that turned into rape interesting...traumatic certainly...but not interesting.

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#51217 - 01/14/11 01:47 PM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Vibrissa]
Edmond Dantes
Member

Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 140
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Vibrissa,

I've seen a number of your posts and I've been really impressed with what I see as the depth of your insight. I think this post is another great example. I'd like to make a gentle suggestion to you though mostly because I've had to learn this the hard way and I hope you might find it useful.

I have found that when I share what I think are valuable insights and I use a lot of Mastertalk to do it, people seem to resist it. I was reminded of this when I read things like the exchange below because I found myself simultaneously agreeing with you and a little put off at the same time. Weird feeling.

Originally Posted By: Vibrissa


Quote:
I withdrew. Prime opportunity to maybe verbalize something meaningful and I had no clue what to do.


Yes it was, but you don't feel safe doing so. It takes a lot of courage to step out there. Because even letting someone know that we need validation, what that validation looks like is providing a glimpse below the line. We run the risk of putting ourselves out there, vulnerable, with the possibility that they won't respond with care. That they will chose NOT to validate in the way we've asked, that they may begin to debate and argue.

But the fact is, you have to speak if you ever expect to get what you want.



Myself, I find phrases like "the fact is" particularly unsettling. I love your insight and I hope you understand where I'm coming from. I'd hate to see your wisdom discounted.

Respect

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#51231 - 01/14/11 02:12 PM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
Myself, I find phrases like "the fact is" particularly unsettling. I love your insight and I hope you understand where I'm coming from. I'd hate to see your wisdom discounted.


I hope you all can translate my own MasterTalk into its dialogical form. I try to catch it, but I think a lot slips through. Tis habits I wish I didn't have.

Once upon a time, when MasterTalk was first being bandied around, I was introduced to the concept of "the Dialogue Police." One of the more amusing twists I've seen is that the most normal response to MasterTalk is MasterTalk. Kind of like "I'm gonna hit you if you get violent." smile

I tend to use several words to draw my attention: fact, know, right, wrong, should, truth, etc. Well, we do our best.


Edited by AlTurtle (01/14/11 02:15 PM)
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#51234 - 01/14/11 02:17 PM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Amadahy]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Oh! Ouch! One Night Stand (ONS) and Rape. Yup, ugly experience. Glad you survived.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#51258 - 01/14/11 02:59 PM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle]
Vibrissa
Member

Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 930
Loc: Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
Dantes - I fully appreciate your insight.

I do Master Speak A LOT. I'm discovering that about myself. I have a way of speaking that presents my opinion as fact, as truth. When, really, I am open to my ideas NOT being fact. My speech doesn't reflect that. It should.

As you can see it is something I struggle with. I've worked to eliminate it with DH because, well, I gotta live with him, lol. It may be more difficult for me to do it here, but I get what you're saying, and I agree with you. Thank you for pointing it out for me.

Awareness of the problem is the first step to change...right?
_________________________
Moi: 33
DH: Kenichi 33
M: 8/2005
DD 6 yrs
DS 3 yrs
Ze Blog

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#51339 - 01/14/11 04:41 PM Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Vibrissa]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: Vibrissa
Awareness of the problem is the first step to change...right?


Tis my belief. Also frequently the awareness is triggered by something, someone, outside ourselves. If we lived alone, I fear we'd never notice. I think it is one of those tiny things that reminds me/us that we are built to live with others.

To remind me of this stuff, I created all those signs to put up on my wall. When my partner would notice something, she might point to a sign. When she spoke up, I would often recall the sign/principle that she was referring to. Very helpful.

" All people make sense, all the time " was our all time favorite.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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