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Re: Family Life [Re: Kayla] #444565
01/07/20 11:35 AM
01/07/20 11:35 AM
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Squeaky Tree Offline OP
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Hi Kayla,
How are you? I suggested the lifecoach, he laughed. Shame really, I know a really good one through work: she is a mediator and we use her for family matters (law firm).

I guess really it is something we could do together. I might research it.

Just simple things, he knows that he really doesn't tolerate caffeine, yet he's drinking coffee late afternoon and then cross because he doesn't sleep!


Married 21years (this year) ~12y since dday(?)
DD16 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: Family Life [Re: Orchid2] #444566
01/07/20 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Orchid2


Originally Posted by Squeaky Tree
It has been a pattern in our M that if I'm not FULLY functioning, he gets depressed and sinks into all behaviours that go with it. We talked about this time and prepped for it.

They're due back this evening. Hes sent a few messages to ask how I am. I've told him that I haven't let go of the anger yet and that I'm not sure where this damage to our family will take me. I ask myself shy I c as nt let go of the anger and I know it is fear related.

Fear of tension
Fear of his anger
Fear of DDs distress
Fear of DSs anger
Fear of not being able to make it OK.
Anger that I've got to do the work again.


Orchid: I think your list is an honest recognition of what is at the root of your holding back. Often those who are controlling &/or display narcissistic tendencies, explode our weaknesses. Since we can't correct their bad behavior, we can learn to work through our weaknesses, over come those we can, protect our strengths and set boundaries that do not allow us to enable bad behavior.

I have found that when that is done, it acts like good medicine or bug repellant and those who continue to act badly stay away. It may mean we loose some friends and relatives but in the long run it is better for us individually.

Later when we reflect, we see how much chaos is no longer in our lives. We may still yearn or feel sad for the losses from our lives but I view it as a loss that is not in our power to recover.






BOUNDARIES.

Boundaries, that very first lesson that Mark taught me all those years ago. I have choice. And as LA taught, I just have to know my code, the key to who I am.


Married 21years (this year) ~12y since dday(?)
DD16 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: Family Life [Re: Squeaky Tree] #444567
01/07/20 11:54 AM
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Squeaky Tree Offline OP
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So, J is back on the meds and what a difference. He'll never be a nurse. Empathy score is 0, but he is now willing to listen to my needs and is willing to help, it just sometimes he forgets. Like forgetting to put some soup in a flask before work yesterday.

He's meeting up with 2or3 guys from the old course tonight. Funding has been pulled, but occasionally they meet. I get the impression that this was semi-planned but thst J went to the effort to firm it up.

He's doing so much better with S14 too and S14 sorted the dishwasher without being asked repeatedly, in fact he wasn't asked at all. J sent a text to D16 to thank her - it didn't cross his mind that S might have done it without being told grin grin

I'm hoping to drive today, maybe take the kids to athletics and netball while J is out.

You know we haven't so much as hugged for 3 weeks.


Married 21years (this year) ~12y since dday(?)
DD16 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: Family Life [Re: Squeaky Tree] #444568
01/07/20 01:58 PM
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ST,

The point about no empathy is troubling indeed. I saw that in WSt and others.

Sincere hugs can be more just sharing or receiving support. Some don't get it and may feel that hugs convey the wrong message. I know WSt didn't feel hugs were important amongst even family members.

So sincere hugs or other forms of affection showing care were not a part of his demeanor. It may be he felt all forms of connection had to be sexual in nature. I know he didn't seem to grasp on the importance of caring for others vs sexual connections.

Always found that difficult to understand. The reality is that now it is understandable why Wst never really bonded as a parent should with his son but paid more attention to others. Even more so why we never really were able to become close as a couple. He saw me as his work horse vs wife. Sad since I don't have 4 legs and can't gallop at all. That put me at an obvious disadvantage.

My son never really knew he was missing out on a caring father. I did and it hurt to watch. It was only later I came to understand about the 'lack of empathy syndrome'.

It became evident this deficiency wasn't going to get fixed in my lifetime. After I did all I felt I could, it was possible to walk away, leaving WSt on his own to allow him to work on his deficiencies.

As a result (or current status), WSt has become easier to deal with. He still has some of his issues but he doesn't really pick fights with me anymore. His empathy and care level is a bit higher but not where it should be, so long bouts of no contact with even his son is still an issue in my POV. Another sad event to watch. Dealing with him on his father's funeral arrangements and other matters with his side of the family is what we are dealing with right now. Least we are working on the same page there. Must be happy for small improvements.

I think it is hard for a giver to let go. I hope J can work past his issues and enjoy the benefits that life can bring vs staying stuck without empathy and care.

jmo,
Orchid


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Re: Family Life [Re: Squeaky Tree] #444579
01/07/20 10:50 PM
01/07/20 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Squeaky Tree
Hi Kayla,
How are you? I suggested the lifecoach, he laughed. Shame really, I know a really good one through work: she is a mediator and we use her for family matters (law firm).

I guess really it is something we could do together. I might research it.

Just simple things, he knows that he really doesn't tolerate caffeine, yet he's drinking coffee late afternoon and then cross because he doesn't sleep!


Life is a roller coaster in the K&K household. Our son moved home and is still working to regain the use of his right hand so that he can work. He's depressed and almost non-functioning emotionally some days, and other days surprises me by how positive he is.

The coach K-man worked with doesn't coach couples until he's coached the husband alone to a higher emotional skill level; he works with men who want to break out of the angry outburst and selfish demands cycle because they're tallying up how much they have to lose if they don't change those natural reflexes. K-man didn't really have a choice if he wanted to save our marriage. I was cold and unfeeling toward him for a very long time almost 7 years ago after I caught him.

I'm not surprised that your husband laughed. He doesn't think he has a problem. He thinks his anger is someone else's fault. That's emotional immaturity at it's finest. And he will lose everything to protect that immaturity until it's almost too late - once you reach indifference it will be too late for him. It has been so hard for me to come back and some days I realize I'm still not back - when stress is high and money is short.

It's entirely up to you how your tolerance for a mean angry man goes. But if he's backsliding the way I think he is, at some point he's not going to be able to medicate away his mean angry heart. And your life will be in danger like it used to be. Nip this now. Or be prepared to walk away. Get your financials in order.


Consider that we don't have to live with the consequences of our advice in your life. Act according to what you can live with!
Re: Family Life [Re: Squeaky Tree] #444581
01/07/20 11:49 PM
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Kayla has some really good points. Her H sounds a lot like my Ex, except throw in abuse and narcissism. I was trying to figure out the best way to explain it, but she did it perfectly.

Mr. Squeaky thinks everyone else has the problem, and he can't fathom how he is a factor in the equation yet. He can change if he wants to. If he doesn't change, you need to be prepared to leave for your own health and sanity.

Re: Family Life [Re: Kayla] #444583
01/08/20 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Kayla
Life is a roller coaster in the K&K household. Our son moved home and is still working to regain the use of his right hand so that he can work. He's depressed and almost non-functioning emotionally some days, and other days surprises me by how positive he is.

The coach K-man worked with doesn't coach couples until he's coached the husband alone to a higher emotional skill level; he works with men who want to break out of the angry outburst and selfish demands cycle because they're tallying up how much they have to lose if they don't change those natural reflexes. K-man didn't really have a choice if he wanted to save our marriage. I was cold and unfeeling toward him for a very long time almost 7 years ago after I caught him.

I'm not surprised that your husband laughed. He doesn't think he has a problem. He thinks his anger is someone else's fault. That's emotional immaturity at it's finest. And he will lose everything to protect that immaturity until it's almost too late - once you reach indifference it will be too late for him. It has been so hard for me to come back and some days I realize I'm still not back - when stress is high and money is short.

It's entirely up to you how your tolerance for a mean angry man goes. But if he's backsliding the way I think he is, at some point he's not going to be able to medicate away his mean angry heart. And your life will be in danger like it used to be. Nip this now. Or be prepared to walk away. Get your financials in order.


Wow, I'm impressed at the good posts I've been reading on this thread and others. Deep and moving posts. Kayla's post is worth a multiple read. She covers a lot of points that need to be planned for success. I know of what she posts. Good job Kayla. smile

Mine had to be sent off on his own to see that his issues have never left him. If he gets angry now, it isn't our fault. It never really was our fault but we were the closest and easiest targets. Now, if he acts up on a call, I have no problem hanging up.

To any outsider, I may look like the bad guy but in reality, it is saving my sanity. I don't worry what uninformed or ignorant folks think. My sanity is more important.

jmo,
Orchid


Orchid
Re: Family Life [Re: Squeaky Tree] #444588
01/08/20 11:22 AM
01/08/20 11:22 AM
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Squeaky Tree Offline OP
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It's hard, isn't it?

I knew he wasn't the human being I wanted or needed when I met and married him.

Obviously, it has been a while since things were so so desperate and there are totally different people in our lives now, to back then.

I haven't played any music for 18months because of the kid's focus on sport and I am now involved in that and reaping the physical and mental benefits (she says as she sits alone for another day, unable to bear weight on her left foot 😂)

People have commented that they bet J is a wonderful nurse and they are really shocked and surprised at how awful that first werk or so was. He's fine now. He can't plan or think but he doesn't huff or grunt or moan when I ask for something.

There are many things I don't like. One of my irritations is that when he works from home he does it on his lap in the living room with us about and the TV on. At thd mo, I'm begging him to work in the office, so that he isn't in here.


Anyway, sidetracked there. Why are there such different versions of my H?

Is there any point in searching out an Aspetger's/ autism diagnosis?


Married 21years (this year) ~12y since dday(?)
DD16 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: Staying Together [Re: Squeaky Tree] #444589
01/08/20 12:33 PM
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My son has autism, and he has loads of empathy. He hugs and helps and he's not thoughtless. Your H doesn't sound like autism or aspergers to me but you might research a cluster B disorder.

My Ex could have made the changes that Kayla's H is working on now, but he wouldn't do it. It was easier to dump his family and blame us for everything and make excuses. It would have helped my kids to see him own up to his problems and address them.

What behaviors are you seeing when things are more challenging? Is J irritable when he works from home on his lap? Or is he making his work everyone's problem so that nobody else can watch TV or eat and talk and laugh?

Re: Staying Together [Re: Squeaky Tree] #444590
01/08/20 02:32 PM
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We have a friend with Aspergers and the biggest takeaway I had was that he simply couldn't put himself in anyone else's shoes. He was incapable of understanding why his actions could hurt someone else. They didn't hurt him, so why would we be hurt?

Re: Staying Together [Re: Squeaky Tree] #444592
01/08/20 02:43 PM
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My therapist pointed out that it was worthless to waste time trying to “diagnose” my husband. Because a diagnosis wasn’t going to change a damn thing. I had to work around his behavior no matter what. Until or unless HE decided to change anyway. And I couldn’t bank on that.

So I had to change. The work that had to be done was in me. And it was startlingly effective.


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: Staying Together [Re: Squeaky Tree] #444593
01/08/20 03:35 PM
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Blair, I believe J has learned to help other people. He knows it is something he 'should' do. He hugs, because he has learned that in some situations it is the appropriate thing to do.

Like Cat says, he can't understand why different things bother different people, but sometimes he learns to accept that. But he really can't grasp why there is a difference.

I've made many many changes, things look OK. But as soon as I don't function at 100% he loses the plot.

You're correct Miranda, a diagnosis won't change that but maybe he'll be more at peace with himself.


Married 21years (this year) ~12y since dday(?)
DD16 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: Staying Together [Re: Squeaky Tree] #444594
01/08/20 09:05 PM
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I think some persons just can't figure out what most of us call common sense or the basics. Not in everything but more so when it comes to points of interaction. Yet, there are moments some more rare than others where it appears they 'get it' and then later they just forget it or lose it. I recall at a few points in our time together, Wst almost pleaded with tears that he doesn't understand why he doesn't get how to be caring for us. He knows he care a lot of about other things and people just not my son and I.

I didn't know what to tell him because whatever I said would not be taken well. It wasn't my voice, tone or even what I looked like, it was just an aversion to me. Why? Seems he is comfortable being in a point of control. Didn't like to make concessions, didn't want to consider other POVs, always wanted to be the authority figure without consequences. Didn't like to be open minded as needed.

Weird how he could see that fault in others but not himself. In the end, him living with himself has been the best thing for all of us. He was really never good marriage material. I don't think he wanted to admit that and so we had this long history of me trying to figure that out for him and then doing what I needed to do for my family vs him. Sad........ too many folks like that in this world. frown

It is not easy to see this in others, especially when they are claiming to be just the opposite. But one thing I do notice as a pattern, usually there is some sort of jealousy trait that shows up at an earlier age, some minor but stubborn traits of jealousy that if left unguarded can grow into a greedy person.

I noticed it in FIL (who recently passed). He at least acknowledged it and was working hard to overcome that shortcoming. I noticed it in some of WSt's siblings and even in WSt himself. I warned WSt about it and he even admitted it to a degree but has basically made no improvements towards his family.

I have noticed the same traits in one of H's nephews. From the time he was small he would act sneaky similar to what I noticed with Wst. This later went from cute to a much bigger problem over the years. Bullying was one of the offshoots and that really bothered me. My son was one of his favorite victims when they were kids. My son doesn't hear from that cousin much and now that the funeral is this week, they may meet again. Son doesn't recall much of those events so he may not feel as bad.

I have taught my son how to recognize this type of attitude and potential abuse patterns now in others and to make sure he isn't acting that way. Check in balance for us as well.

jmo,
Orchid


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Re: Staying Together [Re: Squeaky Tree] #444622
01/15/20 07:12 PM
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Squeaky Tree Offline OP
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We had breakfast out together this morning. I asked him what made him happy. He really struggled to answer, really struggled. I'm still not sure. I know what makes him unhappy : debt and the kids not putting dirty washing in the right place.

I told him I was thinking of getting some coaching to work out whether we should stay together. Am I as happy as I can be? Are the kids? Is he? Whilst debt makes him unhappy I'm not sure we can stay together. I'm of the opinion that debt is just something you live with. To him, if you have debt you stop living.

We have a largish house (1 more bedroom than we need) in a perfect location. He doesn't want yo downsize to reduce debt. The house is worth close to 3x what we owe on it. And we could almost get something that we'd fit into mortgage free.

He insists he likes me and definitely wants to stay married.

We've just had plans drawn up for a big extension... Its all nuts... All I really want is a slightly bigger kitchen.

I don't know whether I'd ever love a man again. I don't see the point. I guess I just can't imagine being loved except by the dogs and kids.

People in our running club find us both really funny but we don't find eac other funny.


He's cross because he agreed on our summer holiday, now he wants to cancel and wish he'd said no before. I'm not doing that. We're taking mum and dad and visiting my cousin in France.

I feel better for our conversation. Best one we've had in about 7 years. I think he does, but I'm still not sure what makes him happy and he didn't think to ask me.


Married 21years (this year) ~12y since dday(?)
DD16 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: Staying Together [Re: Squeaky Tree] #444623
01/15/20 09:14 PM
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ST,

Your dilemma sounds like mine. For some crazy reason Wst thought debit was the end of it all and that nothing mattered. So he had an A to meet a rich woman. He ended up with PBR and she is/was crazy.
That didn't work but his mindset never changed.

Does he see his regrets? A bit. Funny how he sees those misconceptions in others but not enough in himself to make changes.

I saw minor ones this past week and this week. He and our son went to his father's funeral. Son and Wst had some talk. More than in all the years together and son is 25 now.

Son's GF broke up with him right during the funeral (same day, I believe). So insensitive of her but not sure if son really told her where he was. So much for communication.

Still son came home and was silent. His father told me about the breakup and I very gently brought it up to him just to be told it wasn't any of my business. After a bit more reasoning seems like a light bulb moment hit and son is now opening up. Making progress a bit at a time.

Wish Wst had figured that out before he took soo much of my life with him. Can't fix other and so now, I can truly relate to your feelings. Still I need to be sensitive to others who believe there is a good partner for them out in this world. Hard to balance at times. shocked

It's a perspective thing, I guess. confused zen facepalm

Sending you a hug

Take care,
Orchid

Last edited by Orchid2; 01/15/20 09:15 PM.

Orchid
Re: Staying Together [Re: Squeaky Tree] #444632
01/16/20 12:58 PM
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What brought you together in the first place? Do you still have whatever that was?

Re: Staying Together [Re: Orchid2] #444637
01/16/20 04:03 PM
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Thanks for the hug Orchid, it's tricky.


Married 21years (this year) ~12y since dday(?)
DD16 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: Staying Together [Re: catperson] #444638
01/16/20 04:14 PM
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Cat
He was opposite to the guy I'd just split from (engaged to, together 5 years, still only 21).

J is tall and had muscley arms. He was miserable. He had a career and a good education. He came from awsy

My ex was short and dump and local, he was fun and friendly with everyone. We had a great time always. He made me smile. His friend was killed in a car crash - he went off with someone else. Told me he was too young to settle down and that he needed time to grow up.

I thought my mum would approve of J. She did. More so than any of any friends that I've had. I thought j ticked those boxes that needed to be ticked.

There were so many alarm bells.


Married 21years (this year) ~12y since dday(?)
DD16 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: Staying Together [Re: Squeaky Tree] #444643
01/17/20 12:54 AM
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What I meant was what did you see in him that made you smile, and is that stuff no longer there or are you just too burned out to like it anymore? Trying to figure out if you two belong together still.

Re: Staying Together [Re: catperson] #444657
01/17/20 10:04 PM
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I honestly don't think there ever was anything that made me smile. I don't remember it. At 21 I was terrified of being left on the shelf.

He actually made me feel safe and secure and protected in the beginning. That's what I liked.


Married 21years (this year) ~12y since dday(?)
DD16 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: Staying Together [Re: Squeaky Tree] #444658
01/17/20 10:46 PM
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Sounds just like my marriage. I was 21 and back then you really did worry about being an 'old maid.'

One thing I've noticed over the years is that many women marry to get a replacement for their dad (thus the safe, secure, protected part) when they're young...but then they grow up. IME, it usually happens when a woman is about 35-40, they stop needing a man so they start questioning why they're with a man who isn't really doing anything for them.

Re: Staying Together [Re: Squeaky Tree] #444661
01/18/20 08:07 AM
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Sounds right Cat. That fits.


Putting it here, I need it validated. I can not wait until I am able to make my own coffee in a proper mug again!

Ungrateful miserable moo!

I hate burnt coffee.


Married 21years (this year) ~12y since dday(?)
DD16 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: Staying Together [Re: Squeaky Tree] #444909
04/14/20 01:34 AM
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It's 2.30 am. I should have been asleep 4 hours ago. Never had a problem sleeping before. Even tried sex. Lockdown and not working and no clubs is a struggle.
Do one covid-19!


Married 21years (this year) ~12y since dday(?)
DD16 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: Staying Together [Re: Squeaky Tree] #444910
04/14/20 03:32 AM
04/14/20 03:32 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,879
HI
O
Orchid2 Online
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Orchid2  Online
Ambassador
O
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,879
HI
ST,

Here's a remedy - sent to me......I must sending crazy vibes!!!

Just be careful because people are going crazy from being in lock down!


Actually I've just been talking about this with the microwave and toaster while drinking coffee and we all agreed that things are getting bad.

I didn't mention anything to the washing machine as she puts a different spin on everything.

Certainly not to the fridge as he is acting cold and distant.

In the end the iron straightened me out as she said everything will be fine, no situation is too pressing.

The vacuum was very unsympathetic... told me to just suck it up, but the fan was more optimistic and hoped it would all soon blow over!

The toilet looked a bit flushed when I asked its opinion and didn’t say anything but the door knob told me to get a grip.

The front door said I was unhinged and so the curtains told me to ........yes, you guessed it .....pull myself together!!!!



laugh1
Orchid

Last edited by Orchid2; 04/14/20 03:33 AM.

Orchid
Re: Staying Together [Re: Squeaky Tree] #444913
04/14/20 12:48 PM
04/14/20 12:48 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,558
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Blair Offline
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Blair  Offline
Member
B
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,558
I'm sorry you are not sleeping. That's a rough one. Can you have a glass of wine to help you calm down? Maybe a tasting kit to try out? I'm an insomniac, so so feel your pain. Hugs.

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