Sorry so long, but a lot to cover.

I used to hang out here about 15 years ago, coming here from Marriage Builders where I was GBH (guilty but hopeful, what a lame handle!). Back then, I betrayed my husband with a brief, long distance, affair. I saw the guy only a couple times over a few months and most of the hideous carrying on was via e-mail. My husband found out, confronted me, forgave me right away (very tearfully), we attended counseling for a time, and we recovered (so I thought). We've spent the last 15 years having fun with lots of shared recreational activity, supported one another through the deaths of my parents and his dad, etc. We both retired from our jobs (age 60ish) within the past year. We spend a lot of time (but not every minute) together and we pretty much know each other's stories. Outside of a few disagreements on this and that (such as I interrupt him when he talks and sometimes get in his way, both habits I'm trying to break), things seemed reasonably good. Until now.

Fast forward 15 years and I just learned my husband is having an affair with a former co-worker. How I found out:

We had both been at camp (where we go to do fun stuff), and he came back to our main home Sunday night, purportedly to do some last minute Christmas shopping Monday and get ready for hand surgery on Tuesday. I drove down Monday morning.

I arrived home at midday Monday to see a package had been delivered. He said "It was here when I came home." The delivery confirmation said it was delivered Monday morning. BIG red flag. He came home MONDAY and not SUNDAY???

So after he went to bed, I checked his phone for text messages (passcode is easy to figure out). He has a LONG string of texts with the OW that goes back more than a year. Without going into details, there is no question they have slept together; have shared their innermost thoughts; and the "L" word, hearts, and kiss/hug icons are used often.

A lot of these texts were exchanged while I was sitting less than six feet away from him!!! How can I be so oblivious????

The two of them worked in the same office; I've actually met her a few times. She had an abusive husband and went through a divorce a year or two ago. I suspect this started as him providing moral support, progressing to an emotional affair, and then to physical affair.

I am devastated. Now I know how he felt when I betrayed him so many years ago. As awful as my A was (and I took full responsibility for it), his appears to be much more entrenched, for lack of better word. It has gone on much, much longer, and I saw way too many mentions of the "L" word. I know that I contributed to the conditions that led to his A, but this has gone on well over a year!!

I need to confront, but am trying to play it cool right now. His surgery and initial recovery will occupy us for at least a few days. How to I do this? What do I tell him that I know? Do I simply ask "Where did you sleep Sunday night?" and hope he comes clean? Do I reference the texts? I suspect if I do, he will change the passcode on his phone and I will not be able to verify anything after that. I know I need to be civil and take responsibility for my own shortcomings.

I don't know if any of the people at his former office know (she still works there), but it would not surprise me if some at least suspect something. From scanning the texts, there were many inferences to them being very chummy at work.

I cannot imagine life without him. I want to grow old with this guy, I still love him, and will forgive him if he stops the affair and I can work on meeting needs I was not meeting. But I'm so fearful that he will choose her over me. Help!

Camper

Welcome to Marriage Advocates. I'm sorry you have a reason to be here. We have a good group here, waiting to jump in and help.

I would suggest you first save your evidence in a safe place, away from him where he does not have access. Screenshot all of the texts, or photograph them. If there is email evidence, then forward the emails to a safe email that he cannot access (even if you have to create a new one).

Does the OW have a boyfriend or husband, or is she divorced?

Do you live in a fault-state where the evidence of the affair can be used in a divorce case?

If you have not yet visited an attorney, you should go for consultations with several of them. That will give you an idea of what will happen and the documents you need if the affair does not stop.

I have taken photos of some of the key texts. I so do NOT want a divorce!

Forgot to add: OW is divorced with a couple kids, not sure of she's. We had no children.

Read through the website to gather knowledge.

https://www.marriageadvocates.com/category/guides/infidelity-affair-recovery/ending-your-affair/

Not sure you understand. I am not having the affair; my husband is. I am trying to figure out how to confront and how much of a hand I should show.

I truly do understand. My ex did some horrible things. Iwas hoping to give you an idea of what to do, and what is going on in your husband's brain and why he is doing it.

Gather all the evidence you have into a secure place. Be prepared to expose the affair to his family, your family and the affair partner's family if necessary. Obviously, a nuclear exposure is a larger exposure than a targeted exposure. You should do what is best for your situation. The hope is that when you spring into the light of day, that your husband will may be able to realize more what he did.

Have you told him the Friendship make you uncomfortable? Have you said anything to him yet? Or does he just not know the amount of evidence you are already aware of?

Be ready to separate if you have to. I know you don't want a divorce. But you have to be ready to lose the marriage to save it. If your husband thinks that you won't leave him then he will continue to have his affair and he won't stop. The more entrenched it becomes, the harder it will be for him to stop it.

Thanks Blair. After I posted that, I realized your approach. I have not told him I know yet as he just had surgery today and I thought it best to wait till his head is more clear of anesthesia and narcotics.

I only recall him talking of the OW's sitch once and I said something like it is not his job to be her knight in shining armor.
There were other resources she could use to get her through. He didn't mention it after that and honestly this whole thing blindsided me.

If you want more evidence, patiently wait while you acquire it. In the instance then you should not asking about it or mention it. You simply pretend everything is normal for a while.

Didn't need more evidence. Confronted hubs this morning in a quiet, civil conversation. I posed a question, he answered it truthfully. Said he doesn't want to continue affair, wants to stay with me, has wanted to end it for a while but is struggling on the "how" part since he is not sure she will go quietly.

He also agreed that total NC is necessary. Now... to see all this actually happen.

He needs to give you passwords to everything for transparency.

Hi Camper,

Welcome to MA.

Let's catch you up from what you have learned so far. Have you had time to identify and implement your personal and marital boundaries. How familiar are you with those plans from MB (plan A & B)?

At MA we work a bit differently by recognizing that work needs to be done by both spouses as a basis to begin recovery. Know that the boundaries can change as you each move forward.

Since this is not the first go around for you and your spouse (even if the roles are reversed), you both need to be clear about delving into the start/cause of the A for your WS and how each of you are willing to handle it. Just because one wants recovery doesn't mean all is well.

I have found MA easier to work with than MB and I was there for several years. So ask away, we are here to help.

Take care,
Orchid

Boundaries, by Cloud & Townsend is a good book.

Might as well address one of the core issues: can each of you forgive the other?

In a strange way, might be easier for both of you to forgive now that both of you have strayed. You are now "even". So maybe this is a time when you can both forgive the past and agree to start fresh.

Very helpful to know why each of you chose to stray. But if one or both of you cannot forgive the past, that information (why you strayed) will be more helpful for future relationships than for this one.

How are you doing, Camper?

Hi. Hanging on but struggling. OW is not giving up. I am struggling to find the best way to get WH to go NC with her NOW without it looking like a selfish demand on my part. He knows it is necessary but has not done it. She continues to text him (over and over). He has only responded a couple times with very brief answers.

I know he is in withdrawal and I want to help with that (is that even possible?). I want to contribute to his love bank but am fearful of looking pushy and being rejected.

I know many will say expose expose expose but I don't know who to expose to - both his parents and brother are gone and he is retired. She is divorced so no BH on that side. I also fear exposure would put him over the edge. Of course for all I know others may know about this already. I have thought of the possibility of exposing to the HR person at the office where she still works. But I HATE looking like a scornful wife.

I also have LOTS of questions... How long, do people at his old office already know, do her kids know, has he met them, and most importantly... WHY and what can I do to win his love back?

We are both such conflict avoiders and have a tough time communicating about difficult subjects.

Yes, we are willing to forgive. And the WHY is huge. I know it from my A of so many years ago (I craved the attention) but I need to know his WHY in order to move toward a recovery plan.

Your WH needs to be 100% No-Contact. Has he provided all the passwords for modes of contact (Facebook, emails, snapshot, etc.) and his phone locking codes?

It is not a selfish demand. Your WH is not behaving respectfully. He needs to cut contact. If she works with him, he needs to get a different job.

Camper,

First your H needs to work on his boundaries. Identify and implement them. Boundaries for himself and as your H.

You can do the same for yourself as well.

Once that is underway, you can work on learning to move forward as a couple. You can't save him anymore than you are not responsible for his A. What you need to know is that the OW you are dealing with is a predator. Not all OWs are like that but if you and your WS are dealing with one that is, no matter what you and your Ws do, the OW will seek to destroy.

For some OW's it's a game of conquest and control. So when dealing with one the exposure may need to be broadened.

1. Do a background search.
2. Notify her employer as you see fit.
3. Work with a good MC who is experienced in dealing with A's and manipulative OWs. Not all A's are the same and the OW's capabilities will vary greatly.
4. Identify and set your personal and marital boundaries.

This stuff takes time so I recommend you begin by praying for a clear mind and a calm heart.

I dealt with a full-blown crazy OW. If you read any of my posts on MB and MA, you will read enough to scare you silly. This meant my tactic had to be carefully planned and I learned not to make assumptions or give her any benefit of the doubt. Because there was no doubt she was ok with being an OW.

The OW's prior issues are NOT your issues. She needs to learn how to deal with it vs creating more drama.

So let's keep you focused so you can move forward. Your Ws needs to do the same.

I recall at the beginning of the A, my then Ws still had a conscience and his heart hurt because of what he was doing. After a while, his conscience became more and more scared to the point that he told me as long as I kept enabling him, he could be a WS......forever.

My enabling wasn't to approve his A but in his twisted mind, as long as I was taking care of our family, he felt it was ok for him to be a WS. Crazy or what? This man via the OW and others convinced him it was his right to take advantage of others, including his family.

The OW felt entitled to have an A because her H had one. In reality, her H left her because the OW was really a crazy woman.

So ask your questions and let's help you work on a plan. You can share it with your WS but remember right now, he is a WS. He may feel more loyalty and guilt towards the OW.

Take care,
Orchid

So... we talked a bit this morning. He was lying in bed just staring into space so I finally started trying to get something - anything - out of him.

He said it is all about "love." He did not feel love from me. He'd come home and instead of jumping up with a passionate hug and kiss, he said I'd stop whatever I was doing and "do whatever I thought he needed me to do"... as if I was working for a boss at my job. This had my brain in knots. Part of how I show love is doing things for him but apparently that is not what makes him feel loved. Go figure. He also said there was not enough sex (I agree), I hardly ever kiss him, and when I do, it is like "kissing my grandmother." Ouch. I told him over and over how much I loved him and could not bear the thought of losing him, but not sure he believes any of that... or cares.

He did at least admit that in their current state, he and OW only see the best in one another and none of the bad stuff.

He said he likes it when I do "me stuff" -- ie have a life outside of him. Now of course it is perfectly healthy for people to have individual interests in addition to joint interests, but part of what I love about him is that there are lots of recreational activities that we enjoy together. (RC is one of my biggest ENs). He spoke of a certain activity I did without him this summer and how much he liked that. Funny thing is (and I mentioned this to him) is that it enabled him some alone time with the OW, and he conceded that activity is probably a bit tainted for me at the moment.

I suggested the idea of seeing a counselor, but he was not very receptive. We saw one last time (actually two -- MC and I saw an IC). The MC was pretty weak and he was convinced that I was seeing IC to gain the courage to leave him. No, my IC essentially knocked some sense into me and got me to understand that it was way more fulfilling to get my needs met by my spouse, not an OM. WH's thought on counselors is that "they need to be smarter than me (WH)." He's pretty skeptical about people in certain lines of work.

He also misses the positive feedback he got from people at his job (we're both retired). He is a problem solver and he liked to solve people's problems. I can only hope he might de-fog and devote some energy to solving OUR problems.

So I remain a mess at the moment.

Orchid, I looked at some of your posts from way back but do not remember what the turning point was for you. I do appreciate your responses.

You and your WH are not ready for MC yet. Both of you need to work on why you stepped out on your marriage, ie, boundaries issues.

MB suggests that if you don't meet all your partner's needs, they can go elsewhere to fill them. I don't agree with this notion in many respects, and if used badly can browbeat a spouse into doing things they don't like. If you are checking for both of your needs with loving compassion it might be be a better scenario.

My concern with your WH saying he likes you doing YOU things might be that he's wanting you to be more independent as he detaches and he has more time/space for the affair.

Hi Camper,

Going to break down your posts and give my POV. It's a POV from a person who see's a lot of similarity with what your Ws is going through but still a POV. You have more details so consider as needed.



Orchid: You are in the mode to look for opportunities, which makes sense but you need to realize that as a WS, 'making sense' doesn't guarantee a resolution no matter how much it makes sense. Y? Because you are dealing with a WS mindset......read on......



Orchid: Words like 'love' don't have the same definition in the WS and A world. If you read your above post, the tell tale sign of a WS speaking here is because it is a selfish post on his part.

Those feelings he has revealed is actually honest. Y? Because imo, the reason why he feels this way is due to the fact that he has put another person in place to receive his attention which is what he equates to 'love'. You can tell him you love him until the 'cows come home' and he still won't recover. Y? Because it is all about getting what he wants, not having an R with you or with even the OW.

A WS will shower attention on an OP not because of true love but because of how things are being done for him. It is a selfish attitude that when it festers (as it is festering), will only get worse the more people enable it. The OW is a predator, so the KISA acts o his part will only make it worse. Eventually others will see his selfish acts and he may turn on them as well.

You want to watch a WS in action turn on not only his family but others? Watch the news, see if you can identify WS traits on some who have been WS' and still act like one in more than just a family setting. Selfishness and greed are the underlying sources for being a WS. This is key to help you know when your H is babble as a WS vs speaking the truth. When he does, you need to adjust how you act and react. Identifying your personal and marital boundaries is a good place to start.



Orchid: Of course, very typical for a WS to think this way. It is the WS' mindset to see better in a predator OW vs his wife and family. The horror stories about this kind of WS mindset abound on MA and even MB sites. The pain and suffering a BS and family go through is horrible. What is worse is when the BS knows this and enables it by going into denial or accepting guilt for the A.



Orchid: Doing 'me stuff'. WS babble for: getting you out of the way so he can have an A.

You both have EN's doesn't mean those ENs should become weapons to use against you and promote the A.

Seeing a MC/IC, not a pro-A step in most cases. So you can understand why he is adverse to it. Mine went to the MC with me. Even had 1 (expensive) session with Dr. Harley's son. He felt he knew it all, like when he thought he was smart mouthing off to 6 sheriff's deputies when he call 911 to report me for throwing his stuff out (long story.......on a thread somewhere). Those are advance stages of a WS gone amok. As good as those attempts were and as much as he fought then took over those sessions, then totally forgot and even denied he had those sessions, in the long run it is part of history that he never recognized but it is a fact.

Facts don't change no matter how much they may be denied during the A and in some cases, even after the A. So what does that mean? To have an A unless one is already selfish and greedy prior to the A, is to have a personality change. Then those actions when they surface start to be noticed by others. The BS and family see it first. Some go into denial about it and actually enable the A, some fall apart and stay broken, while other fight for their lives or parts thereof.

You as the BS need to recognize these steps so you don't hinder your recovery and be able to identify WS babble vs truth-speak.

I recall years ago when WS made a very truthful but hurtful statement. Because by that time, I had been on a learning curve at MB (before MA was created), I recognized the truth-speak message coming out of the WS' mouth. He said to the effect that 'as long as I kept taking care of the family, he could be a WS forever'. It hit me like a ton of bricks but before I collapsed, I was able to regain my stance. I let him say it twice (I believe) just to make sure we both understood what he was saying. As a WS he was actually proud of this 'rehearsed' statement. By letting him repeat it, I gave him back his guilt (aka: reverse babble) and those words even now, belong to him as a factual and unrepentant proof of him being a WS. That in turn helped me accept those words and change my actions from a form of enabling the A vs not enabling the A. Very tricky stuff those WS & OPs come up with.



Orchid: I now this throws you for a loop. To a certain degree, you know how he feels as a tries to justify the A against your prior conduct. The difference is you were repentant and went into true recovery vs his trying to fit the A into being an H. He isn't an H, your M relationship has been downsized to kissing his grandmother. That is an insult to you and your M. Remember he said that.



Orchid: That example I gave about was one of my many turning points. Identifying and implementing my personal and marital boundaries was another huge turning point. Learning that I could not and it was not my job to fix him was a difficult but essential turning point. In addition to reading the older version of Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend, I read a book by Dr. Harley about 'Giver/Taker'. I learned a lot about the general make up of our personal characteristics so I had a foundation on how to view H as a WS vs trying to keep him in the H description, which no longer identified him.

There were many other turning points along the way in this horrible journey. Even time is altered in a weird sort of way, adding to the pressure.

Being able to use RB (reverse babble) and other tools learned on places like MA here, has been helpful. Being able to see my personal issues and fixing them helped me be able to have a clear mind and a calm heart.

Recognizing WS babble is important. My recovery sped up faster and exposed the WS more so that I actually had less trouble. Still the trouble I had and still have exists and I must recognize it in order to survive.

Know that not all will understand what you are going through and that will hurt. But knowing this helps you recognize and separate yourself. I lost many relatives, friends and acquaintances because I refuse to enable the A. I have dealt with several in my life who are WS'. MIl, FIL, my own father, my sister, my WS, etc., just to name a few. The ongoing effects are still active to this day.

Still survival and not enabling bad behavior is what keeps me going. I had to be ok relinquishing some relationships as a result and as hard as that is, I don't regret it. Those boundaries have stood firm. Just had an incident about an old family friend who I saw at my uncle's funeral, this person is revered by many but I know what she did and she knows it as well. Seems she thought I had Alzheimer's or something because she came up and grabbed me to give me a hug while I was talking with some mutual friends. The last thing I had said to her almost 10 years ago was that we will no longer speak again based on her lying to support my father's affair. She is a people pleaser vs being truthful and that allowed my father to use her to support his long term A.

That friend knew about my stance and she choose to try and get me to pretend to others that our R was ok now. Somehow 10 years should be enough in her eyes. My mother is dead in part because of my father's long term A and yet she thinks 10 years of lying and enabling bad behavior is ok. I certainly don't need a person like that in my life.

The point she was told directly, never apologized or even attempted to but has over the years tried to use others to force contact. That funeral incident took the cake. I was in a position that no matter what I did, I would look like the wrong person or compromise my position. I choose not to compromise whether folks around me understood or not. No one asked what was wrong and that was telling in itself. I work from that point forward. My personal boundaries are much stronger now and don't regret walking away from that 'former' friend. I certainly don't need folks around me to enable bad behavior.

So you are at the start of this matter. Some of the shock will wear off but until then, you can find a good MC/IC to help you to get balanced. Make your personal improvements and strengthen your stance.

I do hope your WS doesn't stay in the land of the stupid. You don't have to stay there with him. Lend a hand but learn to let go in order to survive.

Btw, the trust factor is real. We can discuss that more later.

Take care,
Orchid

You need to read the Harley books and Love Languages. You are an Acts of Service person. He is a Physical Touch person. You are doing for him what you would like him to do for you. But if you want him to feel loved, you have to do for him what he wants you to do. If you can learn to speak his love language, and if he can speak yours, then there is a good chance you will each feel in love with the other.

But the others are correct that making deposits into his love bank / bucket won't work until you plug the hole in the bottom of the bucket. He needs to stop the A. You probably need to expose him - judiciously - to the outside world if you want to make their breakup more likely.

Good luck. As you know, this is not easy. But if you apply the problem solving skills we suggest, you have a decent chance of getting him back. Or at least being more confident in whether you do or do not want him back.