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Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #442120
04/15/19 01:15 AM
04/15/19 01:15 AM
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You sound so much better, hold. So happy for you.

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #442150
04/16/19 02:38 PM
04/16/19 02:38 PM
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holdingontoit Online OP
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Thanks all. Not sure how much "better" I am. Saturday I got snippy with my Mom and Sunday and Monday I got snippy with Mrs Hold. My internal shame is rising up. I think this means the meds are working. I have feelings. Which I don't like. Because most of my feelings are negative. And no, I am not willing to do work to change that. Sometimes I like it better when I am numb. Mrs Hold has definitely caught on that I don't love her as much as I used to, or as much as she loves me at this point. She doesn't like that. For which I have zero sympathy.

She yelled at me yesterday after I got snippy. She said she exerts huge effort to be bright and cheery despite her physical ailments from the thyroid disease. I told her to stop doing me "favors" and be honest. I said she is robbing me of the chance to be helpful and supportive by holding back her complaints. Of course, I am doing the same thing in the other direction so I can't blame her for playing this game. I refuse to let her deal with my needs so I can't complain when she refuses to let me tend to hers. That is OK, in the game of "who can be the bigger martyr" I know I can beat her. I can tolerate the total absence of sex for the rest of my life far better than she can handle never complaining to me about her physical ailments.

There. That is better. Now no one is living under the illusion that I am anything close to mentally healthy.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #442192
04/17/19 10:47 AM
04/17/19 10:47 AM
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Rome wasn’t built in a day. Don’t let a setback deter you. You’ve had many traumatic life events within the past year and you’re still standing. Keep swimming forward.

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #442214
04/18/19 04:34 PM
04/18/19 04:34 PM
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holdingontoit Online OP
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Thanks, but no.

She is disappointed that I panic when under stress. She finds that unattractive. Many people, especially women, do. Not wrong of her to feel that way. She does not feel I can take care of her if I cannot take care of myself. That triggers her to pull away. She has been distant all week.

Of course, given my refusal to allow her to meet my needs, I am not nearly as impacted by her pulling away as I used to be or as she wishes I was. One of the main reasons for my refusal to have sex with her is precisely so I will not be as impacted when she tries to send me to the dog house. And precisely so that I will not feel motivated to kiss up to her or make extra effort to try to get back into her good graces. I am pleasant. I ask about her day. I honestly wish her well if she attains some accomplishment. I hold up my end of the regular errands and housework. But I am not going out of my way to "make it up to her" for not being her strong protector on Monday.

In fact, I take a certain warped pleasure from her being in a funk. She is disappointed in who she picked for a partner? She wishes I were different in certain ways? There is an important need of hers that I fail to satisfy? Oh well, cry me a river. I have zero sympathy.

And that is the problem. I am not reacting to falling short by trying to improve. I didn't promise to do better next time. And that is the silent yet unmistakable message I am sending - she is not worth fighting for. She is not worth making an effort to please. She can take me or leave me as I am. I guess if I were happy with who I am, then that would be a healthy attitude. But since I am not, I am spiting myself to spite her. Very messed up on my part. Yet so very satisfying.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #442226
04/19/19 12:59 PM
04/19/19 12:59 PM
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hold, at y'all's age (and mine), you often settle. This or that, which is the least worse. Your least worse is staying with her. BUT that doesn't mean you can't go out and fill your life with other pleasures. Take vacations by yourself to places you gave up cos she didn't want to go. Start a hobby she didn't approve of. Go see movies she doesn't want to see. Fill your life.

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #442227
04/19/19 01:08 PM
04/19/19 01:08 PM
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holdingontoit Online OP
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Cat:
She takes vacations with her mom, girlfriend, etc. Or she goes to visit the kids by herself since she has more flexibility to be away from work.
I take work trips. In the past she frequently asked to come along. Lately she asks less. Probably because I have sent unstated signals that I would rather she not come.
We go to lunch and/or dinner together on the weekends. We discuss the kids. We talk about the travel plans each of us have. We are pleasant together most weekends.
During the week we chat briefly in the morning and again when I get home from work (generally late). Then I go into the kitchen to have dinner. She stays in the bedroom ostensibly to avoid eating extra food late at night. By the time I get done eating and reading the newspaper, it is her sleep time. So I wish her pleasant dreams and blow her a kiss from the doorway and leave her alone.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #442228
04/19/19 01:14 PM
04/19/19 01:14 PM
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Funny how my conversation about what YOU could be doing got a response about what SHE is doing.

Where are the choices for YOU?

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: catperson] #442236
04/19/19 07:43 PM
04/19/19 07:43 PM
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Hold, Are you teaching each other to live without the other?


Orchid
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #442260
04/22/19 12:38 PM
04/22/19 12:38 PM
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holdingontoit Online OP
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Cat: I don't do anything that involves other humans. I garden in my yard. I play pokemon on my phone. I watch tv. Sometimes with Mrs H but as often or more alone.

Orchid: Yes, I guess I am teaching both of us to live separate lives. Other than mealtime on the weekends, our lives are basically disconnected.

During dinner last night she says sometimes she gets the feeling I don't like her very much. I asked her what gave her that idea. She said that I snap at her more often than I used to. I told her I snap at everyone. She has heard me snap at clients, at co-workers, at my Mom, etc. She said she isn't a client or a co-worker. I guess she expects to be treated better than them. If I can't offer her a POJA regarding how to get there (and I can't because I refuse to permit her to make moves in that direction), I don't see the value of having the conversation.

I know, I ought to provide her with all the facts so she can make a decision about how she wants to spend the rest of her life. I am sure zero people here are shocked to read that I have no intention of doing so.

Such irony. We are like a story by O Henry. She baited and switched me into our marriage. Now I have baited and switched her into staying. There is a certain elegant symmetry about this. I guess that is part of why I like this set of choices so much. For those of you who thought in the past that I would "drop the bomb" on her when the kids got out of the house or graduated from college. No. Don't be ridiculous. I would never do that. I am too much of a coward to take the direct approach.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #442267
04/22/19 08:24 PM
04/22/19 08:24 PM
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Hold,

I sense that one day when you are both tired of this distance game, that it may result in an eventual split. For WSt and I, it hit a turning point, where I no longer cared.

I know myself and when I get to that point about something, someone or a cause, that letting go is what I do. I give my best up front and if it's not good enough for the person, something or cause, then I may try for a bit but will eventually let go. I know this about myself and I warned WSt many years ago not to take me to that place in my soul.

As a WS and even as an H of sorts, he gleefully did it. Well that just wore me out. He knows this because I warned him. It is who I am and I won't fight that. I may make exceptions, for example if the offender shows genuine remorse and apologizes then lives a better life, I can forgive. What I won't do is forgive just for the sake of forgiving that allows the offender to have me enable further bad behavior. That is why I will end an R or stop working on a cause.

The hardest part is to be able to recognize genuine forgiveness and reestablish an R or reenter a cause. The guidance for me is to look to the examples and principals I have learned from the Bible and pattern my decisions in accord to what is reasonable and balanced. I am not a fanatic. Never have been. Too logical of a mindset to go down that road but I do work hard at being reasonable and balanced.

So while most folks thinks letting go is hard (and it is), it is harder to live with one's distressed or guilt ridden conscience unless one doesn't care who they hurt or how.

Sadly, I have learned that there are many who put their own selfishness ahead of having empathy and care for others. Many say they follow 'the golden rule': “all things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must do to them and what is known as the 2nd greatest commandment: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ But their actions betray such ones (aka: hypocrites).

When such actions (to be a hypocrite - say one thing and do another), others can tell. So in my case, once I idd my best, acknowledged that I could do no more for our M, I did make the decision to separate. My conscience is clear that I did my best. I refused to continue to enable my H as a WSt and that separating was a necessary thing. As long as he remained as a WSt (even if there was no PA but still manifesting his WS traits), then our M could not survive. The abuse to our family was too great to keep him in it.

My opinion is that your M is not at that point but if your tolerance level is not in a secure place with your W, you both may need to seek help on how to improve it to save your M.

I hope both do and succeed.

Take care,
Orchid


Orchid
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #442906
05/29/19 02:38 PM
05/29/19 02:38 PM
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holdingontoit Online OP
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Had a very nice weekend at DD's college graduation. First chance to meet her boyfriend. Not sure it will last but it was great for her in many ways no matter what. And he seems like a good match if it does work out long term.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #442909
05/29/19 03:02 PM
05/29/19 03:02 PM
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Congrats on her graduation and new job! I can't believe it has already been 4 years. Last weekend, my folks drove in from Houston to visit me and got stuck in a bunch of holiday and graduation traffic...maybe you passed them on the highway--LOL!

I'm so happy for your DD!

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #442912
05/29/19 08:54 PM
05/29/19 08:54 PM
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Congrats on the graduation! Your DD sounds at peace with where she's at in life.

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #442914
05/29/19 10:34 PM
05/29/19 10:34 PM
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Congratulations!


Me: 50
XH: 13 - well, does emotional age count?
DD1: 24
DD2: 20
30 year partnership...

M: Dec, 1987
Bomb: May 12, 2014
D: Oct, 2015
Ratz.
I am learning how to surf!
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #442916
05/29/19 10:54 PM
05/29/19 10:54 PM
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Ho‘omaika‘i ‘ana iā ‘oe!!!


Orchid
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #442918
05/30/19 12:37 AM
05/30/19 12:37 AM
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Hold that is awesome. I can’t believe it has been 4 years.

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #442920
05/30/19 02:45 AM
05/30/19 02:45 AM
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Congrats to your DD, Hold. I know you’re a proud dad. Happy for all of you.

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #442921
05/30/19 12:24 PM
05/30/19 12:24 PM
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holdingontoit Online OP
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Thanks all.
Oh, and Silverado, no one passed anyone on I-35 in Austin last week. Traffic was so bad Friday morning that Mrs Hold and I had to get out of the car and walk the last few blocks to the ceremony while my sister sat in standstill traffic trying to get off the highway at the UT exit!

Last edited by holdingontoit; 05/30/19 12:26 PM.

Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443207
06/11/19 03:54 PM
06/11/19 03:54 PM
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Nice day with Mrs Hold Sunday. We actually had an honest conversation. For the first time maybe ever, I got her to admit that what is going on inside her head is actually what I thought all along is going on inside her head. As soon as she realized what she had admitted, she closed down the conversation. But she didn't hold it against me the rest of the day. She was basically in a good mood. We held hands and walked around listening to music at festival. I think it helped that I let her shop at a strip of stores buying knick-knacks - retail therapy is always her drug of choice.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443217
06/12/19 02:04 AM
06/12/19 02:04 AM
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Hand-holding and honesty are good things.

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443223
06/13/19 11:23 AM
06/13/19 11:23 AM
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Yup. Just make sure you are being balanced and fair as far as what she said, and what you think she said.
Now for the retreat. After a "breakthrough" of this nature, when you think forward (?) progress is made, it is very common for either one or both sides to distance themselves from that interaction.

Glad you are developing better living interactions. By your writings, I know you love your wife.

Last edited by whatsupdoc?; 06/13/19 11:23 AM.

Me: 50
XH: 13 - well, does emotional age count?
DD1: 24
DD2: 20
30 year partnership...

M: Dec, 1987
Bomb: May 12, 2014
D: Oct, 2015
Ratz.
I am learning how to surf!
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443377
06/26/19 01:06 PM
06/26/19 01:06 PM
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holdingontoit Online OP
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Had another bit of honesty come out recently. Out of nowhere, Mrs H said "I don't think you like me very much. You like having a companion, and a mother for your children, but you don't really like me". I thanked her for her honesty. As I have said often, she knows. For anyone who thinks I am denying her the information she needs to make decisions about her life, don't worry. She knows.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443379
06/26/19 03:19 PM
06/26/19 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Had another bit of honesty come out recently. Out of nowhere, Mrs H said "I don't think you like me very much. You like having a companion, and a mother for your children, but you don't really like me".

Yep. Pretty much confirms what I told 13defroad. Women can stay in a relationship with a man they don't even like.

Here's another platitude. Men value love. Women love value.

You are with your wife because you love her. If you didn't love her, you wouldn't stick around. She can't grasp that concept. She also can't fathom having sex with a person she doesn't like. So, she doesn't. It's inconceivable to her.

But staying in a relationship with someone she doesn't particularly like *is* conceivable. So, she is projecting that onto you, because that's how she thinks.

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443381
06/26/19 11:50 PM
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So, is she telling you she doesn't feel loved or valued? Or is she thinking that you don't like her as a person?

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: Blair] #443383
06/27/19 03:50 AM
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You know her statement: "I don't think you like me very much. You like having a companion, and a mother for your children, but you don't really like me", is quite telling.

Reminds me that WSt said similar way back when. What threw him for a loop is when I sat up, looked him straight in the eye and agreed with him. He certainly didn't expect such enthusiastic agreement.

In our case WSt not only betrayed myself as the wife but also his son and all others who were hurt by his betrayal on so many levels. For him he demoted himself by his attitude and actions. This meant his words carried less meaning but in between he did make some true statements.

For me, I had to learn to acknowledge those truthful statements. It required I change my normal actions and reactions. I learned to be focused and to make excuses for bad behavior.

The important point is that by her very statement she is acknowledging the R and M are in distress is a point you can use to your benefit. In my case I was later able to recall WSt's very words and remind him when he tried to be in denial that he truly wasn't in denial. So his WS wiggle room shrank smaller and smaller.

By all observations WSt created a straight jacket environment and preferred to wiggle instead of asking for help to get out of his predicament. Today he still wears that jacket but now he is used to living that way. He is contend with his limitations and has no fight to improve.

What I find is some who retain a WS type of attitude instead of working past that type of attitude, those folks make themselves less desirable as time goes on. When the looks, money, stability and other attractive features fade, what is left? Are such folks expecting others (family, etc.) to do for them (WS type) when the Ws type refused to be there for the family? At what percentage of disregard is acceptable? What will each of us let the WS types in our lives get away with?

That's what I refuse to forget. I don't want to be shanghaied again.

jmo,
Orchid


Orchid
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