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Notable Post - FireAndIce - The Schoolbus Body Language Thread #248856
07/24/12 02:45 AM
07/24/12 02:45 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,439
Ness
Lil Offline OP

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Lil  Offline OP

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Ness
Posted with permission grin


Quote:
Schoolbus knows this stuff because she has a degree in it.


Anyway, the issue of when you smile with or without teeth is specific to the context - so I could only advise it related to what you were doing and what you wanted the outcome to be. I have a thread for people who are trying to get the WS interested again, using body language to woo them back.

Check it out, I will bump it again.

If you are thinking along the seduction lines, there are differing schools of thought on the teeth issue. They can be very sexy if used to gently bite a soft fruit, yes.

For other purposes, to seduce from a longer distance, a playful lick across lips is better, but not so much across teeth, unless you know the specific sexual tastes of the intended partner.

See, it really makes a difference, and you'd have to ask me what to do in a specific context, and what you want the outcome to be.

Teeth in body language are really interesting - could write a book on it.

But, generally speaking, if you want him to get a message that you are interested, and you love him, to draw him closer:

Touch your face or neck softly
Smile softly without teeth - why? This tends to keep your EYES SOFTER!!!!! and reduces the chance of a miscommunication of overassertiveness or aggression by a show of teeth.

Palms open - avoid fists (you will, however, tend to fisting if you are overly nervous). If you are nervous, instead of making a fist, move your hand to gently stroke your forearm, neck, upper arm, or shoulder instead.

If you play with your hair too much, it can be too obvious. Move your hair back gently a few times - especially with an open palm toward him, that is less obvious.

If seated, reach down and rub the BACK of your calf - again, this gives the open palm toward him.

Long, slow strokes when you do this, too.


Works.

SB


SB background

Quote:
I learned cultural differences in communication studies, and have also taught them and have done research. I use them within my day-to-day job function and analyses as well.

There are certainly differences region-to-region in the USA. For example, in the northeastern states such as PA and NY, it is quite acceptable to have a bar with a crowd standing quite closely together - someone in the back wants a beer, they send his money to the bartender, the beer makes it way back to the guy who asked for it. In Texas, a bar that crowded, well, people just wouldn't go in as readily - they'd be likely to say "bar's too crowded" and go somewhere else (unless of course, Willie was playing!).

Ethnic differences are certainly quite evident. Research bears it out over and over. Formal testing instruments in my field all now have variable response allowances for dialectal and ethnic patterns to accomodate for these differences, in fact.

Socio-economic differences are also there as well. This mainly has to do with exposure and opportunity issues - especially with regard to children. Poorer kids just don't get exposed to things, or have the same opportunities for experiences that richer kids have. Makes for many differences, and this can also be seen on formal testing results.

Lots of research out there on all your questions. There is one great "equalizer", however, that brings many of these things into the melting pot and tends to water down the issue for purists in research - that is media, particularly television. In our society, the kids and people in general all are so exposed to the same materials, shows, movies, products, etc., that many cultural boundaries are being watered down, socioeconomic boundaries opened, and the like. It just makes us all so much more "the same" than "different". But in communication, the differences still make a difference.

In the MB forum, I find it very hard to look past some people's communication styles, yes. When I see an obvious difficulty in expressing oneself fluently, misuse of words, poor grammatical construction, I tend to notice. I do notice a person's pattern of communication. I call yours "stacatto" - you type just the most important part of what you have to say, leaving out the punctuation and what you consider to be extraneous words. Probably because you feel that in this forum others will be more likely to read what you have to say if you do that! True enough.


I also find it difficult not to reply when I see a liar. Honesty and lying behavior are quite evident in writing. Most people will believe they are better at writing a lie, but this isn't true at all! And no, I will not reveal my technique for that, because I could charge for that service!

Hey, maybe I found a new job......

And because I am anal about communication, I don't like this forum much. Too limiting! I really like to see the body language. LilSis is very good about including that in her posts, so it helps me help her!

SB


Schoolbus on liars

Quote:
Watch for changes in length of sentences. This is one way to tell if they are lying. Lies tend to be either really long sentences, convoluted paragraphs, or one-to-two word curt responses. Also, there's the

"Ahhh"

Before the lie.

The open mouth posture - looks like they are taking a breath, or saying "ahhh" for the doctor! Used as a pause by many liars, brief in duration, but fills enough time to compose the lie. Not noticed most of the time in a normal conversation unless you are looking for it! When you get that feeling that someone's lying, ask your next question, a probing one for detail or fact, and watch for the "ahh" mouth.

Often precedes a lie.


Teenagers - they can train you for lots of stuff. My kids hated it that I knew when they lied! My oldest daughter would try the telephone to lie, so I couldn't see her. She would give me her story. I would say, "Okay, call me when you have the truth", hang up, and wait. She'd call back with something close, but not the truth. I would say the same thing, and hang up. Finally, she would call and confess. Got to where she gave up lying to me, and CALLED DADDY. LOL!!!!! We got smart though, and he would call me!

Younger daughter, better at lying. But, she would actually laugh when she lied - so if I could get her to look at me, I could bust her. Eye contact and one smirk from me, and she would break down. To this day, she tells stories of trying to lie and me making her laugh. But she got a few past me. With her, I pulled out the BIG guns - "DD, I am so disappointed in you. I thought you were becoming an adult I could trust, but that trust is broken..." She is a sucker for the disappointment-guilt treatment.

The joys of motherhood.

I need some wine.

SB


More on liars

Quote:
The groveling issue becomes entangled in the actual communicative style and interaction events of the BS and WS. If the BS fails to present him/herself as strong and the interactions during Plan A deteriorate to what I would call "begging" type interactions, then yes, this could be a relationship killer. Plan A has to keep the BS in the position of equality, strength, and respectability in the relationship, and avoid the pitfalls that would enter the groveling/begging arena at all costs.

Finally, if I think someone is lying to me, I use many different techniques. It depends on the person! With men, I tend to look directly in their eyes, and call them on it, straight out. I might say, "Do you actually expect me to believe that?" You wouldn't believe the responses I have gotten - and nearly without exception they have spilled out with the truth.

With particularly difficult liars, I use other techniques. I ask more and more questions, seemingly trivial, such as how they felt about the event, what someone was wearing, and on and on and on. I get them worn out, and ultimately you can tell the lies are piling up, because their stress level rises and they want to run away!

Cunning liars are tough, because they plan things. These are the people like LisSis's RT. She put something in her writing, though, that told on herself. She said, "I HAVE THE POWER. (just kidding)." The fact that she put the "just kidding" in there told on her big-time. This is a pre-planned out - she told him what she wanted to say, and then gave herself an escape hatch at the same time. This way, later on, if he ever brings it up, she can point to the "just kidding" and say that she meant it as a joke. But everyone knows otherwise. Best way to catch these people is to call them on it at the time they say it - and say, "I don't think you weren't kidding." as seriously as you can, and address it at that exact moment. You can't do this as easily in written communication, but if this happens to me, I am prompt at my response to it.

Watch for liars to say either way too much, with odd details, or way too little without enough information to make any sense of things.

That's off the top of my head. Hope it helps!


SB


Advice for plan A

Quote:
The difference in communicating desires to reconcile and groveling would come down to some word choices, and how you are presenting things. For example, I would NOT advise you to say things like "PLEASE, come home" or requests in that manner. Asking outright isn't what is needed, because the WS knows you want him to come home. Asking isn't changing that situation. Repeating it becomes groveling - do you see what I mean? Instead, the Plan A that MB advises really does meet the situation head on. That is, your actions show love and encouragement to return to the marriage. When you talk to the WS, it should be more in statements of HOW things would be better, how you have changed, the things you have recognized that were weaker and could be stronger, etc. Pleading to come home isn't the route, because it is a "yes-no" response requirement - yes I will, or no I won't. And in the situation of separation, you need to get to the point where the decision to CONSIDER coming home is being weighed. So talk about what ACTIONs could be put into place, what you have already done, and what the two of you could accomplish together.

Also, be careful not to talk about how hurt and needful you are. This also translates into groveling - you are essentially telling the WS that you are needy, and need the WS to fulfill you, and makes them view you as though you can't be a person on your own - and a WS isn't in the position to work to fill your love bank up, they want YOU to fill THEIRS.

If you are in Plan A and do not question a late night out, then that isn't a good idea. You should not be a doormat.

The idea of talking about commitment and family being related to bringing up the reaction of guilty feelings in the WS is just a part of what the WS is doing. The natural consequences of being wayward is that you will feel guilt over what you are doing (hurting the family, betraying your commitments). In Plan A, the interactions should include the consequences - so if your WS feels the consequences of the guilt, I would say, GOOD. Then Plan A is working. Let him feel bad about what he's doing, he ought to.




AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Notable Post - FireAndIce - The Schoolbus Body Language Thread [Re: Lil] #249058
07/24/12 10:28 PM
07/24/12 10:28 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 550
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FireAndIce Offline
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FireAndIce  Offline
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The rules:


A long time ago I decided that there had to be a way to have a conversation with another person, and understand them better, and also to somehow get more information out of them without having to "do" anything.

I sat down with a colleague who had many years on me in my field. He told me a story about his experience getting a certain set of materials published. He said that the very first time he went to the executive in charge, he was gung-ho, and did all the talking. He worked very hard at explaining his idea, the science, the data, and all of the benefits that went with what he was presenting. The man at the big desk sat and listened, and didn't respond very quickly. So, my colleague felt uncomfortable, and pressed on, offering more information; the same thing happened. Again, he offered more info, and the same thing happened. Finally, he was talked out, and an uncomfortable silence remained. The executive told him that he had all the information he needed, and then made him an offer. My colleague accepted the offer, feeling like he had really worked very hard to get his idea sold, and in the end had won over the exec.

As a few months passed, however, my friend began to process how that meeting went. He saw that the executive offered lots of time for him to fill in what we now refer to as the "golden moments" - those awkward silences where people feel a need to offer more information than they might otherwise have offered, had there been a usual time sequence in turn-taking in the conversation.

The executive was an expert in waiting for those golden moments. He let my colleague have about 15 or 20 seconds of wait time after he "finished" talking, and left that time completely silent - only to be filled with nothingness. My colleague didn't know what to do with the silence, became uncomfortable, and so began talking again. And he said things he probably should not have said, revealing information the executive wanted to know, such as how much he would settle for, how much he expected to make off the deal, how much he had into the project so far, and more.


A fews years later, the time came up for renewing their contract. My friend went to the meeting with new learning under his belt. After all, he had learned from one of the best, and was also a student in the very field under observation! My friend said that he went into the meeting and announced that he would like to renegotiate the contract, and wanted to hear what the executive had to offer him this time around. The exec sat silent. My friend sat silent.

Apparently, this was a very silent negotiation LOL.


My friend reported that he did come out of the meeting with his desired raise, and the executive was quite impressed with his learning curve.





What do we take from this?


We take the golden moment.


People have an expectation of a certain amount of time between you speaking and their speaking to take place. I ask a question, you answer. The pause between my question and your answer isn't a long time, right?

If you take too long to answer, I will likely do something:

1. Ask you if you heard me
2. Ask if you "understand the question" or "know what I mean" or something of the sort
3. Repeat the question
4. Ask if what I asked made sense
5. Ask if you are thinking, or if you are going to answer, or WHAT...
6. Provoke you
7. Restate the question another way
8. Ask something else or ask if I shouldn't have asked, or move on, assuming you are not going to answer...........


You get the picture.


And once you answer, you pretty much expect me to have some sort of response to what you had to say. And you expect it in a rather short period of time. If I take too long, your response options are small. You will either ask me if I heard you, you might ask me a question, or, one of the quite likely events is that you will

add to what you said.


That is what we called the golden moment. When you add to what you said!


Because this is when people's guard really lets down. This is where the unscripted things happen, when the afterthoughts come out, or when those underlying thoughts come up. They are the things that people hold back, that they have been wanting to say, and for whatever reason they do not say them.

The extra time you give them, by waiting 15 or 20 seconds to let that person have the floor, offers the person the chance to just run with it. Their thoughts just open up, and you hear what is on their mind. Free-range, so to speak.


When you really want to have a deep conversation with someone, and you want to hear the "truth" of what someone has to say, ask your questions, and then listen to that response. Hold back on what YOU have to say - don't respond to what their answer is for at least 15 to 20 seconds - and see if there isn't more to their answer! See if a golden moment happens for you.



Some of you might have known me as Schoolbus.
Re: Notable Post - FireAndIce - The Schoolbus Body Language Thread [Re: FireAndIce] #249646
07/28/12 09:06 PM
07/28/12 09:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,439
Ness
Lil Offline OP

Member
Lil  Offline OP

Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,439
Ness
More Schoolbus wisdom by Fireandice

Quote:
While we might believe we recall exact details of conversations, vebatim, it is actually the more frequent case that we recall the gist of conversations, and recall some sections of conversations verbatim. Some might believe that females are much better at the verbatim recall, but overall the edge goes just slightly in this direction.

What you are more likely to recall is the mood of the conversation, and several sentences, with phrases recalled quite well. Complete verbatim conversations are not recalled well, unless you are a trained listener and write it down immediately afterward. You would be very surprised at the difference in what you believe you said, and what you actually said, given taped or transcribed information after only a week.
For example, if I were to ask you what you talked about at breakfast three weeks ago Tuesday, you would probably have NO CLUE.

BUT.....if that just happened to be the breakfast meeting with your boss where he told you that the company was closing, or you were getting a raise....or it was the day of your wedding....why, then you might very well remember!

This is because the memory would be able to attach the conversation to some meaningful event. If your husband's conversations with your sister were attached to such an event, perhaps a holiday or wedding or something like that, he might be able to recall something because that was "attached" to the conversation by time frame. It is one method by which I am able to assist clients in recovering their memories of events.

Another "reason" people store information is that the brain has attached a very high level of importance to the information. Again, if a conversation has a very important meaning to it, it is much more likely to be stored with broader attachments. An example would be your wedding proposal. You likely recall what your husband said, how he said it, where you were, etc. This is because that conversation had a very high importance level, and the broader attachments (context, location, etc.) were also stored as part of the memories in order to lend support to that information in the brain. Important information is stored with a high level of contextual support - and therefore more likely to be recalled. In your husband's case, if he was talking about everyday stuff, not really likely to be stored. I would tend to believe him that he doesn't recall what they talked about, because if they talked about REALLY important stuff, he would be able to tell you. He is probably guessing that it was everyday stuff - an excellent guess on his part. I trust that guess.

Your question about frequency is probably very difficult for him to address. Because this is nine years ago, my task in helping him to recall would be for him to have what would be referred to as an "anchor". There may not be an anchor for him to attach a timeline to. That is, when I work with patients, I work to find an anchor moment that is a fixed moment in time that the patient can absolutely point to as a date that everyone agrees is a known moment or date that a specific event occurred.

For example, if my patient had a traffic accident and lost his memory, and could not recall events prior to the accident except to a certain point. We would take that exact point and work from that - the "anchor". We then have a known point, and go forward (or back, depending on the memory problem!).

We are talking about conversations nine years ago. His "guess" is that the events were about once or twice a week. From my experience, this estimate is likely to be slightly underestimated, but probably in the ballpark. My experience tells me the 2-3 times a week would be more likely, as something I have seen tends to make time sort of "spread out" if that makes sense. It is not a purposeful change, but something that seems to happen as people age and time passes.

The last thing I will take on is the issue of talking about what was lacking in your marriage. Here is my best estimation of what likely was or was not discussed, given what your husband has reported. He says that he didn't discuss what was lacking, and you say that he does not discuss details of your relationship with others. Those two items are NOT conflicting information.

Next, you say that you believe your sister probably used information from you to try to get to your husband.

I tend to agree. She succeeded, as she was able to tempt him over the line.

Looking at it from a memory perspective, I tend to believe that your husband did not discuss what was lacking in your marriage. I would say that if you were to discuss this with your sister, however, she would say that they "did" = here's why:

She would have used the information that the two of you talked about. She would have talked to him about what YOU said. He, in turn, would have deflected her bringing it up. Thus, in her mind, they "talked about it". In his mind, they did NOT.

Your sister played the two of you against one another. Shame on her. You did a good thing to exile her.

My outside quarterbacking says your husband is working his memory to the bone. The hard part is that his memory may or may not actually have the information in there.

If he is to recall what they talked about, he may have to talk about where they were when they talked, what he did while they were talking, what he recalls about what he was feeling when they talked. Those things might do more to help him recall more of the gist of the information.

You might feel like it is trickling out. It is, in a way, but not because he is holding back. It is the fact of the way the information was laid down in there - and that I think he did NOT attach much of a level of importance to what your sister had to say. That in itself ought to make you feel better, in a way.


Quote:
Okay, new problem here, because the conversations between the two of them likely initiated with his grieving, your relationship, and his "need" with being supported during this time. Your sister worked this angle, and SO DID HE. Do not lose sight of his role in this.

He fully comprehended where the relationship was going regarding the sex, and went there.


That being said, his memory of the conversations would still follow the recall pattern I explained. But the fact that he had sex with her will, of course, increase the importance level of the conversational interchanges - and if you understand what I tried to explain, you should then understand that his recall of certain conversations therefore MUST be STRONGER and very much more specific.

This is neurologically a fact. It is how the brain is wired, and we recall things because the brain is wired to recall them built around certain factors. We learn them and generalize them RAPIDLY, without special tactics because the brain is wired to do it. Among these:

1. high repetition levels (for example, stuff we do over and over again, we recall and learn and keep - like our phone number)

2. life safety (for example, do not stick yourself in the eye with sharp pointy things, avoid saber tooth tigers...)

3. importance to life events (attachment to others - remembering mom's face, where we live, our wedding day...)

4. importance to our emotional self (things that bring us calm, comfort, or fear, like teddy bears or snakes)

5. importance to future needs (things you realize will come up later - like the teacher says it will be on the test, or your wife is going to ask about)


There are many other things we store and learn right away, that we don't have to "think about". They just get stored immediately, and we remember them. (I often wish this was WHERE I PUT MY KEYS. smile )

But a conversation with an emotional and sexual partner in a clandestine affair - and moreover SEVERAL conversations - are a little more special.

WHY?

Because when you look at the list....they fall into more than one of those items I listed, don't they?


And when events or information that needs to be stored falls into one or more of the "important" categories that the brain has in what we might term "HIGH ALERT REMEMBER THIS" class,

the brain REMEMBERS that. Because items that hit more than one of what it might consider critical categories for learning and memory, IT STORES THAT INFORMATION, and that information would be much less likely to be forgotten or lost or discarded or vague.

The brain encodes items in those higher categories more solidly than other information, just as a "stand alone" category. In combination with others, those memories are much more ingrained. Some categories, of course are far more important than others. The brain of course prioritizes. But if you hit a number of these "priority" categories - either for purposeful learning in order to recall something, or as a matter of accident as life happens - your brain is much more likely to recall those events much better.

What I mean is, items in the "life safety" category are stored immediately and are NOT FORGOTTEN. Period.

Items in the "you need to remember this because the teacher said it will be on the test" are also high-level encoding items, and while they may be forgotten, if the teacher says, "Class, this WILL be on the test" are in the category that is considered very unlikely to be missed on the test.

High repetition items are seldom forgotten - with some odd exceptions. We are unlikely to forget repetitive motor functions we have learned, period (for example, riding a bike, skating, or tying our shoes, or signing our name). Other repetitive tasks, such as memorizing our phone number or address will remain intact for quite a very long time - and perhaps over the lifespan for many individuals. Certain numbers or information may be discarded, if deemed by the memory as "no longer necessary" as it falls to disuse after a certain period of time, if learned in this manner (consider your phone number from 4th grade, or information you memorized for a test strictly by rote).

But, if you pair an emotional conversation, with the physical act (SF), and the comfort he sought, plus the information he was secreting from you and "learning" to protect for future use (a unique memory situation indeed), I would be hard pressed to be convinced by this subject as my client that he did not recall even the gist of the conversations.

That, in my opinion, is a no-starter.

He does indeed recall the gist of the intimate conversations. And indeed recalled the sexual encounters. You see, he recalled enough - in the high priority category of "need to know for the future events" area....didn't he?


Originally Posted By: schoolbus
While we might believe we recall exact details of conversations, vebatim, it is actually the more frequent case that we recall the gist of conversations, and recall some sections of conversations verbatim. Some might believe that females are much better at the verbatim recall, but overall the edge goes just slightly in this direction.

What you are more likely to recall is the mood of the conversation, and several sentences, with phrases recalled quite well. Complete verbatim conversations are not recalled well, unless you are a trained listener and write it down immediately afterward. You would be very surprised at the difference in what you believe you said, and what you actually said, given taped or transcribed information after only a week.

Anyway.

The nine year gap will be quite a span of time for your husband to recall specific information regarding conversational interchanges, unless certain criteria were met. The memory would require some things to assist him, things that occurred at the time of the conversations.

For example, if I were to ask you what you talked about at breakfast three weeks ago Tuesday, you would probably have NO CLUE.

BUT.....if that just happened to be the breakfast meeting with your boss where he told you that the company was closing, or you were getting a raise....or it was the day of your wedding....why, then you might very well remember!

This is because the memory would be able to attach the conversation to some meaningful event. If your husband's conversations with your sister were attached to such an event, perhaps a holiday or wedding or something like that, he might be able to recall something because that was "attached" to the conversation by time frame. It is one method by which I am able to assist clients in recovering their memories of events.

Another "reason" people store information is that the brain has attached a very high level of importance to the information. Again, if a conversation has a very important meaning to it, it is much more likely to be stored with broader attachments. An example would be your wedding proposal. You likely recall what your husband said, how he said it, where you were, etc. This is because that conversation had a very high importance level, and the broader attachments (context, location, etc.) were also stored as part of the memories in order to lend support to that information in the brain. Important information is stored with a high level of contextual support - and therefore more likely to be recalled. In your husband's case, if he was talking about everyday stuff, not really likely to be stored. I would tend to believe him that he doesn't recall what they talked about, because if they talked about REALLY important stuff, he would be able to tell you. He is probably guessing that it was everyday stuff - an excellent guess on his part. I trust that guess.

Your question about frequency is probably very difficult for him to address. Because this is nine years ago, my task in helping him to recall would be for him to have what would be referred to as an "anchor". There may not be an anchor for him to attach a timeline to. That is, when I work with patients, I work to find an anchor moment that is a fixed moment in time that the patient can absolutely point to as a date that everyone agrees is a known moment or date that a specific event occurred.

For example, if my patient had a traffic accident and lost his memory, and could not recall events prior to the accident except to a certain point. We would take that exact point and work from that - the "anchor". We then have a known point, and go forward (or back, depending on the memory problem!).

We are talking about conversations nine years ago. His "guess" is that the events were about once or twice a week. From my experience, this estimate is likely to be slightly underestimated, but probably in the ballpark. My experience tells me the 2-3 times a week would be more likely, as something I have seen tends to make time sort of "spread out" if that makes sense. It is not a purposeful change, but something that seems to happen as people age and time passes.

The last thing I will take on is the issue of talking about what was lacking in your marriage. Here is my best estimation of what likely was or was not discussed, given what your husband has reported. He says that he didn't discuss what was lacking, and you say that he does not discuss details of your relationship with others. Those two items are NOT conflicting information.

Next, you say that you believe your sister probably used information from you to try to get to your husband.

I tend to agree. She succeeded, as she was able to tempt him over the line.

Looking at it from a memory perspective, I tend to believe that your husband did not discuss what was lacking in your marriage. I would say that if you were to discuss this with your sister, however, she would say that they "did" = here's why:

She would have used the information that the two of you talked about. She would have talked to him about what YOU said. He, in turn, would have deflected her bringing it up. Thus, in her mind, they "talked about it". In his mind, they did NOT.

Your sister played the two of you against one another. Shame on her. You did a good thing to exile her.

My outside quarterbacking says your husband is working his memory to the bone. The hard part is that his memory may or may not actually have the information in there.

If he is to recall what they talked about, he may have to talk about where they were when they talked, what he did while they were talking, what he recalls about what he was feeling when they talked. Those things might do more to help him recall more of the gist of the information.

You might feel like it is trickling out. It is, in a way, but not because he is holding back. It is the fact of the way the information was laid down in there - and that I think he did NOT attach much of a level of importance to what your sister had to say. That in itself ought to make you feel better, in a way.


Quote:
So it was not the conversations that were of any importance.


Sex was the issue.


Interesting.

The "kissing" was something that I wondered about. He was specific about three kisses. Knew this information specifically, and as I read that post about the ability to anchor the dates I had wondered about things. then, this last post of yours comes through.

So now you have something entirely different. What he was covering had nothing to do with conversations at all.


I still tend to believe his information regarding the conversations in GENERAL. However, given the new information with the sexual issue, we have a new ballgame.


What you now have to deal with is totally different. We were talking about kissing, and now we have shifted to sex. He states twice.

Okay, new problem here, because the conversations between the two of them likely initiated with his grieving, your relationship, and his "need" with being supported during this time. Your sister worked this angle, and SO DID HE. Do not lose sight of his role in this.

He fully comprehended where the relationship was going regarding the sex, and went there.


That being said, his memory of the conversations would still follow the recall pattern I explained. But the fact that he had sex with her will, of course, increase the importance level of the conversational interchanges - and if you understand what I tried to explain, you should then understand that his recall of certain conversations therefore MUST be STRONGER and very much more specific.

This is neurologically a fact. It is how the brain is wired, and we recall things because the brain is wired to recall them built around certain factors. We learn them and generalize them RAPIDLY, without special tactics because the brain is wired to do it. Among these:

1. high repetition levels (for example, stuff we do over and over again, we recall and learn and keep - like our phone number)

2. life safety (for example, do not stick yourself in the eye with sharp pointy things, avoid saber tooth tigers...)

3. importance to life events (attachment to others - remembering mom's face, where we live, our wedding day...)

4. importance to our emotional self (things that bring us calm, comfort, or fear, like teddy bears or snakes)

5. importance to future needs (things you realize will come up later - like the teacher says it will be on the test, or your wife is going to ask about)


There are many other things we store and learn right away, that we don't have to "think about". They just get stored immediately, and we remember them. (I often wish this was WHERE I PUT MY KEYS. smile )

But a conversation with an emotional and sexual partner in a clandestine affair - and moreover SEVERAL conversations - are a little more special.

WHY?

Because when you look at the list....they fall into more than one of those items I listed, don't they?


And when events or information that needs to be stored falls into one or more of the "important" categories that the brain has in what we might term "HIGH ALERT REMEMBER THIS" class,

the brain REMEMBERS that. Because items that hit more than one of what it might consider critical categories for learning and memory, IT STORES THAT INFORMATION, and that information would be much less likely to be forgotten or lost or discarded or vague.

The brain encodes items in those higher categories more solidly than other information, just as a "stand alone" category. In combination with others, those memories are much more ingrained. Some categories, of course are far more important than others. The brain of course prioritizes. But if you hit a number of these "priority" categories - either for purposeful learning in order to recall something, or as a matter of accident as life happens - your brain is much more likely to recall those events much better.

What I mean is, items in the "life safety" category are stored immediately and are NOT FORGOTTEN. Period.

Items in the "you need to remember this because the teacher said it will be on the test" are also high-level encoding items, and while they may be forgotten, if the teacher says, "Class, this WILL be on the test" are in the category that is considered very unlikely to be missed on the test.

High repetition items are seldom forgotten - with some odd exceptions. We are unlikely to forget repetitive motor functions we have learned, period (for example, riding a bike, skating, or tying our shoes, or signing our name). Other repetitive tasks, such as memorizing our phone number or address will remain intact for quite a very long time - and perhaps over the lifespan for many individuals. Certain numbers or information may be discarded, if deemed by the memory as "no longer necessary" as it falls to disuse after a certain period of time, if learned in this manner (consider your phone number from 4th grade, or information you memorized for a test strictly by rote).

But, if you pair an emotional conversation, with the physical act (SF), and the comfort he sought, plus the information he was secreting from you and "learning" to protect for future use (a unique memory situation indeed), I would be hard pressed to be convinced by this subject as my client that he did not recall even the gist of the conversations.

That, in my opinion, is a no-starter.

He does indeed recall the gist of the intimate conversations. And indeed recalled the sexual encounters. You see, he recalled enough - in the high priority category of "need to know for the future events" area....didn't he?


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
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Re: Notable Post - FireAndIce - The Schoolbus Body Language Thread [Re: Lil] #249647
07/28/12 09:07 PM
07/28/12 09:07 PM
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More Body Language Stuff

Quote:
When you very first see WH, look him straight in the eyes. If you look away, or down, the body language signal sends the wrong thought to him, which would be weakness or a position of one below his. So to make him understand you are his equal, look at him right in the eyes.

If you want him back, look at his eyes, and concentrate on smiling softly without showing any teeth. Not a big smile. Then touch your neck. Keep your hands near your neck or face, or relaxed in front of you, in any manner - but with palms open (try to avoid making fists). That's all you need to remember to do. After that, act natural, which will be slightly nervous. The only message you need to deliver to him is the very first moment you two make eye contact, which is the message he will remember - make that one count.

If you do NOT want him back, show your teeth when you smile, smooth your clothing at the waist, and turn away rather abruptly. He will understand your meaning and you will not need to say anything. Avoid touching your hair or head when he looks at you the first time.

As for slag, I'm not sure how you want to make her feel. So here are ideas for a number of scenarios:

To make her feel less than you - look her body up and down so that she notices you have done it, then look away. No need to do anything further, because by looking away you have effectively dismissed her.

To make her feel completely and totally dismissed, look her direction just one time and make a face that expresses a questioning glance - as if you are saying to yourself "why is she here?" - and shake your head "no", look down, and then away. Be absolutely sure she sees you do this - and then do not look at her again, avoiding any glancing in her direction, any attempts by her to gain your attention, any attempts by anyone to acknowledge her presence. Look PAST her if needed, over her head, beyond her, anything but engaging her if there is cause to look her direction. If she speaks, ignore what she has said, and act as though there has actually been dead air, and respond only to the previous person's words, or open on another topic entirely. (I have done this to a person I work with, and for two years this person has been absolutely driven crazy by me. Only recently have I begun to say hello, and she has no idea now how to respond. This person had asked me to break a law two years ago, and I refused - she attempted to pillory me and demote me, and I stood up and reported her. She was punished, and I stood my ground against her railing against me - I have won, over time. Now, on MY terms, I will speak to her. She has not figured out what has happened to her, but this works like a miracle. She is powerless with me, and her former ability to ramrod and intimidate me is now completely useless.)

If you want to make her feel as though you have "the power" in the relationship between you and WH (and you do NOT want your WH back) - look her straight in the eyes, approach her, and tell her you are glad she is there, but sorry she might have to hear about how her own relationship with WH is likely to end - but maybe you will be able to "pay it forward" and save another woman the grief. Then, walk away proudly.

If you do not want to talk to slag at all, but want to convey a message that you feel sorry for her - just look at her and mouth the words "I'm sorry for you". Most women can read lips across a room quite well. She will easily get your meaning and will calm down.


I'm not sure where you come down on slag, or if you are in the point of your life where you are ready to D your WH. But you sure sound pretty strong, Charlotte, and if I were your WH, I don't think I'd be ready to face you!

You rock - and I can visualize you parading into that courtroom dressed to the nines, watching his eyes pop out of his head. He looks at slag, then at you, and with his much worn-out older mind thinks,

"what did I do???"

And you and your lawyer go to work.


Rock on.


Polygraph Questions

Quote:
schoolbus: Re: FWH Goes Back On His Promise
My questions:

1. Have you ever, at any time, in any place, during the entire course of your marital relationship, touched another woman's body in a manner that your wife would object to if she were to have caught you doing it?

2. Has your mouth ever sexually touched any part of another woman's body during your marriage?

3. Has your P ever touched any part of another woman's body during your marriage?

4. Has another woman's mouth ever touched any part of your body below the waist during the marriage?

5. Has another woman's hand or body part ever touched any part of your body......etc.

No wiggle room.




AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
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Re: Notable Post - FireAndIce - The Schoolbus Body Language Thread [Re: Lil] #249682
07/29/12 03:32 PM
07/29/12 03:32 PM
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Okay, here's one that I don't think I've talked about before.

It is about how you position yourself when you are standing (or sitting) while talking with a person of the opposite sex when you are having a conversation, and how it might make a difference in terms of how the other person perceives your position in terms of equality/power, so to speak.

Basic information: There is some research that shows that girls and boys position themselves differently when speaking with one another (past a certain age level). Boys tend to have conversations side-to-side or at a 90-degree angle from one another and have more body space between each other. Girls may sit closely together, side-to-side, but place their heads quite closely, so the face-to-face angle is reached. Girls tend to prefer a face-to-face position overall, and will stand together, even in groups, so that the best possible positioning for all would be more face-to-face. Boys tend to allow for more space, and will line up more side-to-side, or create an "L" shape for a group, or perhaps a "U" shape. Girls make more of a circle.

How do you use this?


It would depend!!!!


If you want to approach a person using a business-like manner, want to keep the conversation away from emotions, on topic of business, and keep your sense of control and equality in terms of the "power" of the business transaction - go with the side-to-side position.

You can use it in marriages for talking about anything that might be controversial, or negotiating, or simple business stuff for day to day. In talking with WS, it can be useful in maintaining distance, self-control, and in keeping your own sense of power and control of emotion in the conversation.


If you want the conversation to be more loving, more emotional, more intimate? Go with the heart-to-heart (face-to-face) position, and sit closer together. Shoot for a tight side-to-side position, like on a sofa where you can put your faces quite close (like little kids do). Or in a restaurant, don't sit straight across from one another - choose a table where you can sit at the corners and touch each other, or sit on the same side of the booth (even more cozy).


The main message here is to consider if you are using a tendency toward "controlled, business" conversation, or "emotional, relationship" conversation. Think about where your body is, and if your position in space is close enough or far enough away so that your proximity and angle MATCHES THE MESSAGE.

If they match - terrific!

If they do not match - make an excuse to move around, reposition yourself, and match the body to the message. Use your whole body to communicate. It is only when your entire self sends the same message that people BELIEVE THE MESSAGE.



Some of you might have known me as Schoolbus.
Re: Notable Post - FireAndIce - The Schoolbus Body Language Thread [Re: FireAndIce] #328945
01/02/14 02:26 AM
01/02/14 02:26 AM
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Written by Schoolbus.
How to deal with a teenager who is adopting the Wandering Parent's point of view.


original (May 23, 2010)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Your comment about your WH wanting to be "in control" of everything right now is really correct. He is working on the weakest link in the chain - your 14 year old. It is not a surprise to me that he is doing this. He understands teenagers, and knows that they tend to support the person they perceive as the underdog, or the person they believe to be "seeking their happiness". Chances are he has positioned himself with her as both of these - to embolden his stance and to get her on "his side". He is a pig, because he is manipulating her and HE KNOWS IT.

The way to fight this is with questions back to her.

When she comes to you standing up for him, do not fight or argue with her. Only ask her questions, and when she responds, don't argue - just nod your head and say things like, "I see" or "Maybe your perceptions are missing another point of view". Say nothing more, and do not engage her in any discussions regarding what she believes as her dad's needs or wants.

Your questions should be open-ended, and allow for her to state what she things aloud - because teens have a need to express ideas and hear their own opinions on things from their own mouths. Additionally, they want to be "heard", not corrected, guided, lectured, etc. If you present her with this open forum type of systematic listening, she will ultimately hear herself arguing "the wrong side"....and come to understand - without any help from anyone else - exactly what her father is doing and why it is wrong. You do not need to guide her, lecture her, or even stand your ground. It will amaze you.

When she stands up for him and chastises you for doing anything through this process, or criticises your stance:

Questions to ask sound like this...

I hear your disagreement with my approach. What would your approach be?

I understand you believe he is pursuing his happiness (or whatever the soup of the day is!), what do you believe happiness to be?

You're telling me that you believe it was incorrect for me to _____. Maybe you have heard of other ways to do this, and would like to offer me a suggestion for another way. Tell me your idea so I can hear what you have to say.

I can tell you are upset about ________. I want to know your ideas on what might repair things, or ways to better handle this situation.



After she responds, you only say things like:

Hmmmm.

I understand why you believe that.

Your life experience would probably lead you to believe that, so I do understand where you are coming from.

Thank you for sharing your feelings with me. I guess we just disagree on this one.

I know that for now you are torn between me and dad. I love you, and at some point maybe you will want to hear why I feel the way I do. For now, I am happy you were able to share your feelings and ideas with me.



Don't engage in useless fighting with her. Everything you say and do goes straight back to him, and IT WILL BE TWISTED. Guaranteed. During your Plan B, you can actually Plan A him by being a terrific mother, and by working as strongly and lovingly as you can with your kids, and fighting to love DD14 through this mess and his terrible influence.


She will ultimately thank you for it.

And yes, I know, it is just one more stressful job to do - that you never would have had to do if not for his affair.


SB


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Notable Post - FireAndIce - The Schoolbus Body Language Thread [Re: Lil] #328947
01/02/14 02:30 AM
01/02/14 02:30 AM
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Give it 6 months

Quote:
mirror,

Let's say you decide to divorce your wife. What can you expect to go through?

You will experience a rollercoaster of emotions. For the first few days and weeks after d-day (the day you discovered the affair), you will have moment-to-moment emotional swings the likes of which you have never before encountered in your life.

Your mood will go from crying, to melancholy, to zoned-out, to desperation, to panic, to hopeful, to elation, to anger, to resentment, to depression, to mania, to despair, and back again - and all in the course of an hour sometimes.

One day can seem like an eternity, and the next can fly by so fast you didn't realize it happened. You might feel like you are losing your mind, because your wayward spouse can say something that sounds almost logical, yet you know it is a lie - but you want to believe it. Inside your heart, you know that your WS is "in there" somewhere, and you might get glimpses of that person you once knew, and when you do you so desire to trust that glimpse, and then the rug is pulled out from under you again. You see what you believe is truth, you don't trust it, you forget things, you look back over your past and wonder "was that REAL, or was that fake?".

As the weeks go by, you find out enough information about the affair that you begin to piece your world back together, at least some of it. You wonder if what you know is true. You wonder if you should reconcile, or if you should walk away. You want to reconcile some of the time, and at other times you think you should throw in the towel and just be done with the whole darn mess. Maybe everyone would be better off if the marriage was over. Five minutes later, or the next day, you wonder what you were thinking, and you believe that the marriage should be recovered, and start thinking about ways to work on that.

After three months or so, you wonder about how the marriage ended up where it was. That initial shock is over, and you have figured out that the blame for the affair itself really isn't on the betrayed spouse - it belongs to the WS. Some of the pieces of the marital problems belong to the BS, others to the WS. You begin to pick up the pieces that belong to you.

As the months pass, you hit the six month mark, and around then you begin to be angry again. You get good and mad, because as a BS, you wonder why YOU have to deal with the fallout of the affair, you have to deal with the pain, and why the WAYWARD seems to go along, LA-LA-LA-LA-LA and seems to just skate away unscathed?????? How does this happen, after the nuclear bomb that WS dropped in the marriage?????

And the rollercoaster of emotions seems to have hills and valleys still, but they are not moment-to-moment, but more like you have up days and down days, or perhaps weekly. Maybe certain things trigger you, perhaps that restaurant you know the affair couple went to, or that shirt you know the WS wore on the movie date that one night when they said they were going to work late.

You hate movies, or you are more careful about choosing them, because you now realize just how many of them have affair themes, affairs included in the plots, or have jokes about affair sex or casual affair scenes in them.

You lose many friends, because you just do not want to deal with people who are cheating on their spouses, or in affair marriages (affairages). You can't hang out with them anymore, because it makes you hurt to the very core of your soul. From your own lips, you hear yourself cursing movie stars and others who openly and cavalierly betray their marriages.

There is a pain you carry, deep inside your body. The pain does not leave you. When you awaken in the morning, it is there before you open your eyes, and greets you as your first thought: "Your spouse betrayed you. You still feel this hurt, and it is embedded in your soul. Some of the pain has been shaved away overnight, but not so much that you might feel the difference." When you close your eyes at night, you know that thought will be your last: "Try to sleep, your love has killed your heart, it hurts........."

And in your dreams, you know that the pain will also echo there.


Know that this will be the scenario, for about two years. The pain and the mood swings and the triggers - they fade over time. They do. It takes time, and work, to get yourself to the point where you can go to sleep and wake up and it NOT be your last thought and your first thought. It does change over time.


About two years, if you decide to divorce your wife.
That means, she will not be there to help you get through this. You are on your own.



Now, if you decide to recover your marriage?????


Same scenario as above. Because the emotional deal is the SAME, either way. You will still hurt. There is no getting around that. You will still have to go through the recovery cycle.

The difference is that if you divorce, you deal with the court issues, separating "stuff", legal paperwork, attorneys, money/finances, all of that. And you do it alone.

My advice is for you NOT to decide on divorce for at least six months. Mainly because you will change your mind so many times between now and then - just because of the rollercoaster ride. And if you do decide to divorce six months from now, there would be a more thoroughly though-out decision made at that point. At least that works in your favor, and allows things to cool off.


If you remain married, you work on your issues as a couple. Your wife and you focus on what went wrong, fulfilling your emotional needs together, she works on making restitution to you, you rebuild the marriage as a new one with the rules you jointly create to protect it from affairs in a better way. MB gives you the plans.



But either way, it is a long, hard road to recover from what has happened. You have a difficult choice to make.

My husband has had five affairs (of varied types), and I had a one-night stand (over 35 years ago). We are recovered. It IS possible to repair a marriage, to fall in love again, and to make your relationship work. Start with the foundation of love, and rebuild from there. I am not saying it is EASY. Worthwhile things are seldom easy.

But they are worthwhile.


Schoolbus


Apologising to your children

Quote:
I wanted to try to help a little bit, especially on apologizing to your daughter.

I just read a great book that has me on a completely new path in my life.

I want you to think for just a minute about what you would say to your daughter, IF she were sitting in front of you. If she were open to hear whatever it was you truly wanted to say, and needed to say. If you were to pour your heart out to her, and you were completely honest about what you had to say and do.

Those words would include:

How stupid you had been
How you had betrayed your wife
How selfish you had been
How you had betrayed your children
How you had not focused on the pain of others, and instead had only focused on what you alone had wanted
How much of a liar you became
How much trust you had destroyed
How wrong the entire affair had been
And somehow, you know that the OW was NOT worth this

And how now, looking back, that you know the entire thing could never be erased or taken away, and that you owe an apology to everyone - an apology so big that perhaps it cannot be given, but that you are offering what you can, in hopes that you can be given the chance to begin to make amends.

Yet, somehow, even though these acts betray the very foundation of what love is, that you do love her and want to spend the rest of your life trying to show her that. And that you are working on getting help for yourself to change, grow, and learn to do just that.

Maybe that is what your apology should have in it.

Since she won't talk to you, write a letter. Incorporate those ideas into the letter. If you cover it all, it should go pretty far to start the process for you.

SB

Quote:
Regarding the letter to your daughter - if you have written it, then to get it to her you can have someone else email it for you. That would be one way to get it to her.

Regarding how the rest of the family feels about her, I would talk to them, and tell them that you recognize she is doing a sort of Plan B with you, and that you could not be more proud of her. That what she is doing is trying to protect her mom and her love for everyone - and her way of doing that right now is to not contact you, and for now that is her right and that you honor it. You should probably state that in your apology letter, too - that you recognize her right to not talk to you until she is ready, and that you honor it.

And you should tell the family members who are upset with her that YOU are the one they should be upset with, and that if anyone has anything to say about her reaction to your affair

then they can come and discuss it with you

And that they should give her every ounce of love and respect they have to offer in her time of need. And that you will dial the phone for them if they need your help in calling her to apologize to her and offer their help.

Stand tall for your daughter, and defend her position, because she is doing what she needs to do, and you saw that and you know she did the right thing for herself and her mom.

You will also go a very long way in regaining some respect for yourself in the process.




With regard to the issue of withdrawing from your OW. I do have something to say to you about this issue. You are carrying this fantasy about this OW in your head like it is a perfect and real thing. It never was. Never.

The truth of the matter is that you had a fantasy built up and that is what you were in love with - the fantasy. There was no reality behind the cardboard. Had anything progressed, you would have discovered that.


Quote:
I live in a recovered marriage. It is sort of like being a recovering alcoholic I suppose - it is more of a process as opposed to a finished product.

Our marriage, like all others, is continuously evolving. It was evolving before the affair, and continued to evolve after the affair, and will evolve until one of us dies.

Yours is the same. All marriages are the same in the sense of changing every day, and over time.

It is the very reason that affairs happen, in a sense. Because we live closely together and the changes happen slowly over time, we become enured to some things, unaware of others, used to this or that, ignore little things, enjoy lots of things, and neglect many. Time does that to relationships. We get so that our relationship becomes a pattern of sorts, but over the long term, the patterns ebb and flow, and ultimately even the patterns change. We start seeing things as "the same" or "boring", or "settled". Even though the long term reality is that the patterns are changing - evolving - very, very slowly.

So we can fall into the trap of not meeting the needs of the spouse, actually fall into being "too comfortable" with the other. We take it for granted that the other person is happy or comfortable. Or we get too distant, because our habits and patterns just take us so far out of the life of the other that we become very separate from one another.

That's when affairs become possible, because another person can step in and become able to meet our needs - become part of the life of one or the other, because we are too separated and too needy. The OP fills the gap, or the boredom, or the need for change from the day-to-day sameness.

So what does a "recovered" marriage look like?

We alter that tendency to "sameness". We learn to recognize when we are working into complacency, and we actively do things in our lives and relationship to combat that tendency.

For example, we make sure that we have recreational companionship activities within our lives at intervals sufficient to break up the doldrums. We go fishing, ride motorcycles, go out for dinner, go for a walk with the wolf we own, swim together, build things with wood, or play practical jokes on the neighbors. My FWH actually took dancing lessons - that HE scheduled - and he has always sworn he never wanted to learn to dance. Turns out he enjoyed it.

We make sure to meet the needs for sexual fulfillment, and are sure that both of us are satisified in ways that are mutually enjoyable. We also make sure that variety and excitement is added in to ensure that patterns are avoided.

Needs for conversation are met - and we look to movies and books to share together so that we have things to discuss in depth. We might attend a cooking class together (RC) and then subscribe to a magazine for gourmets and talk about the articles in it, for example.

Take a look at the EN's list, and figure out what you can do for YOUR WIFE that might build her up. I'm sure you can figure it out. It will involve you doing some things you don't like - but you will find that you might actually enjoy doing them because you are doing them with someone you love.


We do things every single day to be sure that we are AWARE of the marriage.

This means you THINK ABOUT BEING MARRIED, and what it means to you. And you do it every day.

In fact, if you had done this before your affair, the affair never would have happened - because your time and emotional investment would have been in your marriage. You build equity in what you invest in. You will be surprised at how your emotions turn around when you start putting your sweat into your marriage, and your effort into your wife's spirit.

We are going out tonight for dinner, probably. I can usually count on a Friday night date with my FWH.

I get to dress up for him, and he always tells me I look beautiful. I believe him when he says that now. Because he means it.

He has invested. He puts credit into my bank every day.

We think about our marriage every single day, and are sure to think about it tomorrow.
That is what it means to be in a recovered marriage.

Last edited by Lil; 01/03/14 03:23 AM.

AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Notable Post - FireAndIce - The Schoolbus Body Language Thread [Re: Lil] #329180
01/03/14 03:26 AM
01/03/14 03:26 AM
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The Fantasy

Quote:
I talk about your feelings regarding the OW being a fantasy for a reason. Consider something called the "mere exposure effect". This is the idea that people who work around each other, or people who spend a great deal of time together, and find one another mutually friendly and reasonably attractive to begin with are much more likely to become more and more sexually attracted to one another with an increase in time spent together. For example, you work with a woman who is friendly and nice-looking. Not necessarily someone you would ordinarily seek out as a date or sexual partner. But because you spend lots of time together on a project, you get closer and closer to each other. She starts looking pretty good to you, and vice-versa. The attraction grows because of the mere exposure to one another.

This mere exposure effect goes a long way toward explaining many office romances and many affairs in the workplace, especially those where the two people are completely mismatched otherwise.

The fantasy - yes. Your OW? Let's talk about her. Next post.


Quote:
Okay, let's talk about the idea of fantasy and the OW.

Let's say you really did love the OW.

Fine.

So, that means you automatically "unlove" your wife?

I don't buy that.

Here's what I think happened.


You betrayed YOURSELF first.

I cannot state exactly WHEN or WHERE you betrayed yourself. But you did. It happens in EVERY DECISION TO HAVE AN AFFAIR. From that point of self-betrayal, from that exact point on, you began to betray your wife.

At some point, you had the thought of working your way closer to the OW. It crossed your mind, and you pushed that thought back as WRONG. You began to do things to keep yourself from thinking about her, and you knew that you were venturing into dangerous territory.

Right?

Had you stopped yourself at this point, and focused on the marriage, you would not have betrayed yourself.

But you made a choice to go ahead and move closer to the OW instead, to explore her as a possible love candidate, despite the fact that you had a wife.

AT THIS POINT, YOU BETRAYED THE DEEP, INNER VOICE INSIDE OF YOU THAT TOLD YOU THAT THIS BEHAVIOR WAS WRONG.

You self-betrayed.

Once you self-betrayed, you started thinking differently. You looked at your wife differently, and the OW differently. The OW became "better". She HAD to. Because the act of self-betrayal had to be

JUSTIFIED.

You had to justify your actions, do you see that?


You had to have some way in your mind, in your conscious, to justify what you were about to do.

You were about to cheat on your wife, to betray her. And you knew that.

The ONLY justification for that would be:

IF YOUR WIFE DESERVED IT, and you could BLAME HER FOR IT.


So mentally, the changes that occur are this: your wife's small faults become larger; your wife's sarcastic tones begin bothering you greatly; you begin to rewrite your marital history so that it works in favor of justifying what you are about to do; and any other perceived problems in the marriage become vastly magnified.



I will say that again, because you have to really live with this.

THE ONLY WAY FOR YOU TO LIVE WITH YOUR ACT OF SELF-BETRAYAL WAS IF YOU COULD BLAME YOUR WIFE FOR IT.

Now, tell me that you had NO conversations wtih your OW regarding how your wife was difficult to talk to, didn't meet your needs, etc.

You did.

Because it justified what you were doing. Blamed HER.


I'm not hitting you with a 2X4. I'm telling you how it works, really happens.

That self-betrayal initiated the blame-game. It allowed you to foist the blame elsewhere and at the same time pushed into place a second event............

The coronation of the OW.

Because this HAD to happen. The OW was the key partner in the game. She HAD to be better than your wife - do you see that?

Because if you were to commit this act of self-betrayal, and go against everything you knew to be right and good

then it had better be for something right and good.

You did it for the OW.

So you absolutely, positively, COULD NEVER ADMIT THAT THE OW WAS ANYTHING OTHER THAN RIGHT OR GOOD.


Could you?


Next post, let's talk about that.........is the OW "right and good"?????


Quote:
Is the OW "right and good"? Is she that perfect fantasy that you nuked your marriage for?

Nope.

Here's why.


That OW is someone who came into your life and made sure that she attracted you. You saw her as a love candidate, and you were married. She KNEW you were married.

I wonder - would you want a wife who has no regard for marital vows? Your OW has none. She lacked regard for YOURS. She did not care that you were married.

If you ended up with her, married her, she would bring that attitude into that marriage. Something to consider. Not "good".

Your OW, did she consider your children, and the impact her presence in your marriage might have on them? IMHO, any person who intrudes on a marriage that has children involved, has no moral standing. She was willing to put herself and her own selfish desires above YOUR CHILDREN and their needs, Not. ABOVE THEM. You should never choose anyone who would put themselves above your children - that alone tells you a great deal about her character. Neither "right" nor "good".

How often did your OW say negative things about your BW? About how much better a woman she is than your BW? She said those things in order to drive your wife out of your life, to help you push your wife away - make you hate your wife in your mind - drive a wedge into your marriage, in her selfish desire to "have" you, not to "love" you. There is a difference, you know. Not "right", and no, not "good".



And that fantasy...............

OW was always able to get herself ready for you, had time to shower and dress up. Your wife? She woke up in the real world with you, sometimes in work clothes, sometimes from painting the garage, sometimes from digging in the garden...

OW was always able to put on the candles before you got there, and clean the house. Your wife? She was doing great to have your dinner ready between getting the kids to dance class and catching the dog that got out the gate yet again, and oh, since you forgot to pick up milk on your way home she ran and got it, and "somebody" broke the toilet paper holder again so she fixed that...

OW gave you hand-made love cards every time you met for secret sex rendevous. Your wife?

She made love to you that first time you two were together - remember where and when that was? How you felt then? Make your mind go there - it's reality and THAT IS LOVE.

She bought that sexy outfit once that didn't stay on long and ohhhh she looked great - remember that? And you two made love...that's reality and THAT IS LOVE.

She wrote you love notes once and twice and three times, and more, and you read them and remember them, and probably have them stashed somewhere. She has given you gifts over the years for birthdays and Christmases and "just because", and you kept some and laughed at some and don't even know what happened to others. She lost your socks and stayed up with you when you were sick.

She raised your children.

She probably wrecked one of your cars.

Or you wrecked hers!

She shared more than one laugh with you, and a thousand tears.

And she has stood next to you in the best of times, and is standing right there now, in the very worst of them.

Your OW........gone. Because she was a fantasy, and for all the reasons you can see and more............

Your wife is reality.

Your wife is love.


You make a choice every day about love. You accept it or reject it. You give it or take it.

If there is one thing I have figured out about love, is that it is found where you GIVE it.

Odd little fact.

SB


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Notable Post - FireAndIce - The Schoolbus Body Language Thread [Re: Lil] #329181
01/03/14 03:28 AM
01/03/14 03:28 AM
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Ness
Lil Offline OP

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More Schoolbus on Body Language

Quote:
Your question on conversation just happens to be just up my alley.

I don't know if you have read anything about me at all. My expertise? Human communications.

Lucky you.........


Hah!

I have a thread on body language and memory somewhere here, that I will hunt down and bump up for you and your wife. I post to her off and on. Somehow the two of you touch me, and I just feel like you two will make it through this. There is love underneath all of this craziness, and that is really what the foundation needs. The rest - you will learn. You will make it back.

Read the part in the thread on body language about the rules of talking about your affair. One of the problems my H and I had was that we would wear out, well, *I* would wear HIM out with marathon talks. We really didn't get much done and I would end up a mess. I didn't listen well, and he didn't talk well, and we just failed to get ahead in how we connected.

So I made up these rules for how I was going to talk to him. Limited amount of time, taking turns, etc. We stuck to them religiously to begin with. It was hard for me! But it ended up making it so much easier on the both of us. Read the thread, and try some of the ideas in it that seem to make sense for your situation. Maybe not everything will work for you, but some of the things might help in getting your conversations better on track.

About the issue of getting together on topics? My H basically had two things to talk about - architecture and rock music. Now, these two topics are quite fascinating I'm sure. But limited to these two topics night after night, and not being an architect, builder, contractor, drafter, musician, rock-music lover, or in any related field whatsoever, well...........you can imagine that I had basically

nothing to offer

but a worn-out ear!

And my H could go on for hours, as apparently he must spend all of his time at work researching these two fields and not actually working.

How do men do that, by the way????

I digress.

So I asked him one night before we went out if we could try one evening not talking about those things. He was shocked. I told him that it was hard for me, because I felt that I was good at listening, but not so much good at filling his need for back-and-forth interaction, and in return, felt left out of good conversation.

He asked me what else there was to talk about!


That approach obviously did not work.


So your resident "expert" failed. The conversation that night, unchanged.



New approach.

We had one of our talk sessions. I went first. I expressed to him that I had a need for interactive conversation on a variety of topics. Some of the topics included philosophies of the origin of the universe; mentation and theory of thought, language, and cognition; western vs. eastern approaches to philosophy and the relationship to science and research; waveform theory and the high incidence of waveforms in the world around us; the multitude of simple beauty in forms of everyday life and its possible relationship to art and architecture and extensions of that thought into folk craftsmanship.........and so on.

See, I took his "what else is there to talk about" question and gave him a list of very specific things I wanted to talk about. He was happy to learn that I had similar thoughts and ideas that he had in some areas, and quite diverse and different ideas in others, and this gave him pause.

He said, gee - I guess you have some ideas that we haven't talked about, and now I'm curious. What's this waveform thing you're talking about???

And I said, "MY 20 MINUTES ARE NOT UP YET."

We laughed.


Because we used the rules, we were able to get past the usual inability we had before and get right down to business. We listen and allow for possible new ideas from the other person. When we used the rules at first, it was strange and akward. One of the hardest things to learn was that the other person was "new", and that we had to be quiet and listen all the way through.


As for her going on and on about the work thing, use the rules to talk about the problem. Because it is really something that bothers you, the rules for talking about problems work for just this type of thing. You only talk about the one issue, you only discuss the problem for a defined amount of time, and then you are done and must spend time thinking about it AND NOT TALKING ABOUT IT. Read the thread, and if you have questions, let me know.

I think if you talk to her in the way I suggest in that thread, you will definitely find that this problem, and most others, can be worked through with a lot less stress.

SB


Quote:
You can have talks without LB's. Here's how.

Use the timer. Set it.

Write down your points - and then, read them out loud to yourself. Listen to how you are talking, and ask yourself, "how did that sound?". Is it loving?

Criticism can come from love or from anger. Everyone knows how it sounds when it comes from anger. Everyone knows how it sounds when it comes from anger, surrounded by BS, and put inside a cupcake. It still hurts.

When it comes from love, however, it no longer sounds like criticism.

Your desire for other ideas to talk about. Here's kind of how my talk went.



Hey, you know this is one of our "talks", right?

yeah, is this bad? did i do something?

Why do you ask? Is there a dent in my MUSTANG???? lol No, of course it isn't bad! I was just thinking about stuff, and something came to my mind. You know that EN questionnaire thing we did?

yeah. do i have to do it again? you know it was really hard the first time. I don't know.....

No, I don't want to do it again. We just did it a little while ago. I was just thinking that since we both ranked the conversation stuff up there sort of high?

yeah, we did, that's right

Well, I was thinking that we needed to talk about what we needed to talk about. Like, I know that I have said before in rather unkind terms that you "always" talk about music and architecture. I need to apologize, because I really don't mean to say it that way. I think that you know more about rock music than anyone else I know, and for sure if I ever get on Millionaire, you are my lifeline for the categories of music and movies. You know I cannot answer those questions!

that's the truth. you also cannot do "name that tune". I'm not sure they let the tone deaf audition for it! lol So, what is the talk about? You want to talk about talking? I mean, I don't know what you want to talk about....I don't know what you are interested in...what to say.

long pause and here is where he gave me the best part

sometimes I talk so much about music and architecture because that is what I KNOW MOST ABOUT. I think you are smarter than I am, and I am afraid to talk about other things with you. I'm afraid that I don't know what to talk about, or that we will talk about something I won't know about at all, or about something I'm not interested in at all. I mean, you know too much stuff.

I sat there a bit. Stunned.


I asked him to tell me more. He said he felt lost, disconnected, at a loss for a topic to connect with me on. Didn't know anymore what I was thinking about. So he stuck to familiar ground.

That was when we decided to go into the "lists" of possible topics. His was brainstormed, mine was prepared (I did it for the "talk"). Believe me, his was very interesting, and you saw my list of possibles above. He hit on the waveform idea, and we had that conversation. Actually, we have talked about that one several times, because since then it has been something we have noticed and has become a sort of thread in our conversations and observations on dates and travels.

The talk was in no way confrontational, not critical, and certainly not a lovebuster at all. Didn't have to be.

We came to each other in love.

And left lots closer, with more to talk about.

SB


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Notable Post - FireAndIce - The Schoolbus Body Language Thread [Re: Lil] #330660
01/11/14 10:10 PM
01/11/14 10:10 PM
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Ace Offline
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I miss Schoolbus and FireAndIce.

Ace

Re: Notable Post - FireAndIce - The Schoolbus Body Language Thread [Re: Ace] #330670
01/11/14 10:56 PM
01/11/14 10:56 PM
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S
SmilingWife Offline
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S
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Originally Posted By: Ace
I miss Schoolbus and FireAndIce.

Ace


Ditto

Re: Notable Post - FireAndIce - The Schoolbus Body Language Thread [Re: SmilingWife] #331766
01/18/14 04:50 PM
01/18/14 04:50 PM
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SFB Offline
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Originally Posted By: SmilingWife
Originally Posted By: Ace
I miss Schoolbus and FireAndIce.

Ace


Ditto


Lil:

Thanks for pulling some of this stuff out.

SB/F&I is really terrific.

A number of folks could use some of this right now...

SFB


Finding an ethical way to deal with pain, fear, disappointment etc..is part of the experience of becoming a stronger person...one who is driven by compassion instead of compulsion...ie I have a legitimate reason to be stressed out right now...however, my response to it will determine how others percieve me, and myself. (quoting Star*Fish)
Re: Notable Post - FireAndIce - The Schoolbus Thread [Re: SFB] #402474
12/29/15 09:34 PM
12/29/15 09:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
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Ness
Lil Offline OP

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wayward fog disassembled and decoded
Quote:
Let's see - for general translation purposes, whenever a wayward speaks, you can usually think this:

1. I want what I want when I want it.
2. I will blame the BS when I feel like it, and it doesn't mean much to me. In fact, it doesn't mean much at all.
3. I am out to satisfy my own wants. Whenever anyone else gets in the way of that goal, that person is attempting to "judge" me. "Judging" is now "bad", and therefore, if you are in the way of me and my wants, YOU are "bad".
4. Nobody understands me unless they are someone who supports my wants. In that case, they are a "good" person, and they are not "judging" me. They "understand" me, and they are my "friend". Probably, this person is my affair partner.
5. I absolutely cannot and will not listen to anyone who has had any experience with anything remotely like this experience - because MY experience is very unique and special, and I am therefore very unique and special among all human beings who has ever lived and who will ever live.


So, basically, unless you are talking to your REAL spouse, pretty much....

don't listen. Because what the wayward spouse has to say is self-driven.

Unless you have someone who can analyze the message and pull out the pieces that can help you, just step away from the mess and protect yourself.

SB


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Notable Post - FireAndIce - The Schoolbus Thread [Re: Lil] #402500
12/30/15 05:12 PM
12/30/15 05:12 PM
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The Dark Side of the Moon
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The Dark Side of the Moon
Hi Lil!!!


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Notable Post - FireAndIce - The Schoolbus Thread [Re: AntigoneRisen] #402546
12/31/15 01:43 PM
12/31/15 01:43 PM
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PEEKSKILL NY
Rich57 Offline
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Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
Hi Lil!!!


Was thinking the same thing.
Happy New Year!

Re: Notable Post - FireAndIce - The Schoolbus Thread [Re: Rich57] #441190
02/15/19 01:19 AM
02/15/19 01:19 AM
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Lil Offline OP

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Originally Posted by schoolbus
Dear Time,

I'm a BW.

I wanted to weigh in here on the letter idea.

About two or three months ago, I was feeling very low. It was about the one year anniversary of d-day, combined with the holidays, and his cancer surgery anniversary as well. I was about as low as low can go.

I was thinking of walking away from the whole mess.

I BEGGED FWH to just tell me 3 things he liked about me. Just list 3 things on a sticky note, 3 things that were "okay" about me, that he didn't find "repulsive" or "disgusting" about me (see what I mean about feeling low about myself????).

He was in shock!

I thought it was because I asked him to write it down. So I said, "Could you at least, right now, just NAME ONE THING, so I can hang onto that?"

He wouldn't name one thing. Just shook his head, and remained quiet, with his eyes looking at the floor.

I was devastated.

He left the room, and I cried. He couldn't get past the fact that I thought he didn't love me, didn't think he could find even one thing likeable about me, and that I had disregarded his whole year of efforts to show me his remorse over the affair. That I had ignored his efforts, had not seen his changes, and that he had NO chance to fix things.

I was devastated because I was just so depressed that I was feeling worthless and could not see his side at all.

I thought we were NOT communicating.

But he did hear what I said. I was sitting there focused so much on myself, my pain, my devastation, and FWH was listening - and I thank God for that. I thank my FWH for his ability to see my pain and do what he did.

He went to his computer and started on a list.

He came back about 15 minutes later, and told me that he couldn't write it fast enough to make it "okay" tonight. That he would just have to hold me for now, and dry my tears, but he needed time to think about the list. But that he WOULD write my list. I focused only on the fact that he had to THINK to come up with something he liked about me (you see, I was in so much pain, I still thought he just didn't even like me). I was wrong.

Turns out, the list was not a list at all. It was a love letter with three things he loved about me. Each paragraph started with "I love you because..." and he finished each paragraph with so much more than just a list.

The last sentence said that he had trouble keeping the list to just three items. That he had trouble listing the "top three", because there were so many that could have been the top three. And that anytime I wanted, he would add to the list.

I have not needed him to add to the list.

Because he has been there for me, and has done everything I have needed him to do to help me through this mess.

So yes, write the letter.

And tell him why you love him. Tell him the best things about him - about who he is INSIDE, what he DOES that makes you love him.

Because he needs to know that you see it.

And, because he needs to know that you REMEMBER it.

And because he needs to remember it himself.

And because YOU need to remember it, too.

SB


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse



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