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#42355 - 12/30/10 12:53 PM Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust.
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Almost every couple I have seen has trouble (small to disasterous) with the issue of Bullying. No matter what, I have to deal with it as I can't let them put me into the Bully position either, for I believe therapy will fail. Professionals who become bullies (lots do I am sad to say), are dangerous.

So this topic focuses on the issue of Bullying.

I get a kick out of the current effort in schools, the Fed / Local Goverments, the news media and entertainment media to deal with bullying. It fascinates me as I observe that they are using bullying, and/or neglecting lots of ongoing bullying, in the effort to teach people not to bully. Kind of like holding a glass of Scotch in your hand to telling your kids not to drink.

Let me start of with a simple, functional definition of bullying. A Bully is a person who wants their way, and if they don't get their way, they will try to make other people unhappy. I like this phrase as it includes that anyone can be a bully at any time and it includes other people - the ones to be made unhappy if they don't cooperate. It also includes that word "try," which reminds me that Bullies have no power unless willingly given it. And it also leaves a bit abstract just what bullies do to try to make people unhappy. So many definitions focus on physical abuse. I don't. I think emotional abuse is much more common, much more painful, and legal.

One warning. I separate Controlling behavior from Bullying behavior. They may overlap, but the core of Controlling behavior is much larger and is a miss-training of the Lizard. A Controller has been brainwashed in childhood in such a way that their Lizard reacts powerfully when "things are out of order." The word "Controller" and the word "Perfectionist" I think are pretty much the same thing. A Controller can have their lizard freak when they are alone. If you want to chat more about Controlling, let's do it under Topic 1. Sandra and I are both Controllers. Wheeee.

And so finally the primary papers on Bullying are here. There are three of them. I suggest you read the first, often nicknamed Master/Slave and its chart , and absorb it.

Give yourself a break before the second, The Power of Passivity. The third paper, Passivity in the Foundations will probably taste like dessert after the second one.

It took me years to figure out and put into use. It took me 8 years to write these papers. They start with simple arguments and move all the way to nailing down CoDependency.

If you are eager/bold/nuts, here's a link to a PDF of all three papers.

I think this is pretty heavy stuff. So take your time and come on back with experiences, ideas, problems, etc. And if you want it, there's plenty more on the topic in this directory.

Amusingly, this is the paper that some Dominate/submissive websites in England use for their members. They like me! Wheee.

And lastly, let me especially offer this as a gift to Foreverhers. I think anyone who has dedicated themselves to any religious orientation (like me) (oh and probably not Bhuddism and Bahaii) runs terrific risks as they are trying to share their faith with others. This topic should help. And this is the promised topic for AntigoneRisen, DanF, the(wonderful)antichick, and to the others of you who have shared your struggles with this topic.


Edited by AlTurtle (12/30/10 01:18 PM)
Edit Reason: More serious perfectionism attacks.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#42371 - 12/30/10 01:20 PM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: AlTurtle]
wiser_now
Member

Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 3595
You have no idea how important this topic is to my H and me right now.

PS: The bully doesn't live in our home, but her bullying reaches right in and twists our home (and our emotions) into a pretzel. I will be reading, absorbing and following this topic with particular interest!
_________________________
A happy marriage is a long conversation which always seems too short. --Andre Maurois


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#42381 - 12/30/10 01:40 PM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: wiser_now]
Amadahy
Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 3472
read it once - reading it again.
My H is a bully - i have told him that for years and years and he just says "I am a man who knows what I want and wont back down...why should I?"

He is also controlling (topic 1) we have stopped seeing three different marriage counselors because they said my H was controlling...which got him upset and he stopped going.

"How am I controlling, how is this all my fault - SHE cheated...I LET her go to on that trip...I didnt stop her...I dont lock her up in a room. She can drive anywhere she wants and do anything she wants obviously since SHE CHEATED> why are you always focusing on me...why do you think its my fault...I was a good husband and SHE SCREWED IT ALL UP"

so you give interesting food for thought.

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#42406 - 12/30/10 02:21 PM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: Amadahy]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
In this topic also you will find the whole issue of "blaming" and "fault."

I think it is all about understanding Boundaries. I am to blame for what I do and how I react. You are to blame for what you do and how you react. My stuff is my fault. Your stuff is your fault. The resolution to the issue of blame, I think, starts with clarifying what is my stuff and separating it from your stuff. (If I live alone, I don't need to do this.)

The best rule of thumb I have is when two are involved, whatever is always 50% one person and 50% the other. I suppose if three were involved, I would drop that to 33%. Just a nice rule of thumb .
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#42425 - 12/30/10 03:03 PM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: AlTurtle]
NewEveryDay
Advocate
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 7816
Al, please let me know if I should move this elsewhere. I have been actively working on boundaries for 5 years now, my day to day life in general is relatively peaceful and serene. I consistently feel much safer than when I started. My marriage fell apart, but the rest of the relationships in my life, especially the one with my kids, improved drastically. But then 3 weeks ago, my Dad was shot and killed, presumably by someone he didn't know. So while I'm not going to throw away everything I learned about boundaries, a lot of ideas that I used to find very helpful, like "when two are involved, whatever is always 50% one person and 50% the other", I can't get my mind around anymore.
_________________________
"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays

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#42514 - 12/30/10 05:50 PM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: NewEveryDay]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Wow,

No laughing matter, here, NewEveryDay. Yup this belongs here probably, I haven't thought that out very well. But 3 weeks ago, your dad! Damn, damn. Sorry. Take a while.

This may be about Bullying slightly, but planes do crash into people, and bullets fired at a cop sometimes hits a baby nearby. Aarghh!

I suppose your experience belongs for now under the topic of the emotion of Grief and the more general topic of damn damn damn. Let's you and I talk about the 50% rule of thumb, about argument, and bullying about 6 months from now.

Hang in there, man. Drop in here anytime you wish. You are welcome just to sit if you want. Thanks for speaking up and not being invisible.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#42532 - 12/30/10 06:33 PM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: AlTurtle]
Danf
Member

Registered: 10/17/10
Posts: 4593
Loc: WI
hug (((((NED))))) hug

I'm very sorry to hear of the loss of your father, especially in such a dramatic and unexpected fashion.

Please remember the good times and do your best to take care of yourself.
_________________________
Me45 - S13, D11
Disconnected 7/1/12

I'm a brand new sky to hang the stars upon tonight......

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#42650 - 12/30/10 09:49 PM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: Danf]
OurHouse
Member

Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 3027
Quote:
The best rule of thumb I have is when two are involved, whatever is always 50% one person and 50% the other.


Before I read this sentence, I was reading your first post and thinking to myself: "yup, I knew it all along. H is a bully" (and is controlling...)

And then I thought...if I were to tell him that, he'd hold the mirror up to me, as he often does and he would say "I'm not the bully...YOU are the bully."

So can we BOTH be the bully and the bullied in this marriage? I think so.

What a mess.

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#42709 - 12/31/10 12:30 AM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: OurHouse]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: OurHouse
And then I thought...if I were to tell him that, he'd hold the mirror up to me, as he often does and he would say "I'm not the bully...YOU are the bully." So can we BOTH be the bully and the bullied in this marriage? I think so.


Yup, that's what I figured out. Check out the papers I wrote. Some couples take turns who is the bullied and who the bully. Sometimes they both are bullies at the same time - in an argument. Sometimes both are the bullied - in a makeup sesson after a fight?

I think the desired goal is "no bullying" or no "bullied", - both are buddies.

I worked on all this stuff to clear up, and find solutions to, the confusion.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#42740 - 12/31/10 08:32 AM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: AlTurtle]
OurHouse
Member

Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 3027
My problem is....when he holds up that mirror, my Lizard wakes up and roars into action.

Gotta figure out how to do something about that!

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#42742 - 12/31/10 08:41 AM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: AlTurtle]
Rich57
Advocate
Member

Registered: 11/10/10
Posts: 1246
Originally Posted By: AlTurtle

I think the desired goal is "no bullying" or no "bullied", - both are buddies.
It seems to me this is related to the "clingers" and "avoiders", since they seem to go hand in hand also.

Is this right?

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#42763 - 12/31/10 09:20 AM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: OurHouse]
NewEveryDay
Advocate
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 7816
Thanks for the perspective, and I also think time will help.

OH, girl, you know you continue to amaze me, how you keep suiting up and showing up. I think you're showing your kids that we don't just take bullying lying down, that we keep an open mind and look for different solutions that fit the family better.
_________________________
"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays

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#42803 - 12/31/10 10:30 AM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: Rich57]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: Rich57
Originally Posted By: AlTurtle

I think the desired goal is "no bullying" or no "bullied", - both are buddies.
It seems to me this is related to the "clingers" and "avoiders", since they seem to go hand in hand also. Is this right?


I thought so at first also, Rich. Now I don't think they are related, but independent. I see Clingers Bullying. I see Avoiders Bullying. I see Clingers bullied. I see Avoiders bullied. I imagine there are some trends and within a specific couple I am sure there are routines.

As you'll see I believe Lizard is about safety, Mid-Brain is about right level of connection and safety, Bullying/bullied is about power over or power under others, and right level of connection, and safety.


Edited by AlTurtle (12/31/10 11:07 AM)
Edit Reason: Added difference between Bully/bullied and Clinger/Avoider.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#42808 - 12/31/10 10:34 AM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: OurHouse]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: OurHouse
My problem is....when he holds up that mirror, my Lizard wakes up and roars into action. Gotta figure out how to do something about that!



Good one. a) Lizard is reacting as if it were dying to a mirror held up, b) it is when someone criticizes or focuses on you, c) you have a lot of power available, d) there must be a better way to handle this situation.

Read on.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#42855 - 12/31/10 11:57 AM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: AlTurtle]
OurHouse
Member

Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 3027
Read on? LOL

I'm still back at "Lizard". grin

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#42946 - 12/31/10 02:36 PM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: OurHouse]
rockedworld
Member

Registered: 11/10/10
Posts: 920
Al thank you so much for this topic.

It is answering a lot of questions for me at a very important time.

When I read your description of the Passive Master I knew that is how my WH operates.

I have been making reference to your articles on my thread.

I am looking at myself operating as a slave and how I have contributed to this. I am looking at how I can "dethrone" my WH.

I need to change my part!

Thank you!
_________________________
"In every space opened when what we want gets away, a deeper place is cleared in which the mysteries can sing." Mark Nepo

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#42949 - 12/31/10 02:38 PM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: OurHouse]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Dear OH, I think one never leaves Lizard. Only when it is truly "asleep" can I afford to leave it behind. And then I am apt to turn around and see it's eyes bugging at me. Peace! Still there is always more to learn.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#42955 - 12/31/10 02:47 PM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: rockedworld]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: rockedworld
When I read your description of the Passive Master I knew that is how my WH operates. I am looking at myself operating as a slave and how I have contributed to this. I am looking at how I can "dethrone" my WH. I need to change my part!
I think you're the first person to reflect on the whole "reading assignment" in this topic. Wheee.

"Dethrone your WH"? There are so many specific suggestions in the material to do just that. I've come to think Masters are easy, Passive Masters are a slight bit harder, Slaves seem to be a real chore.

Was once going to create a computer came to help practice, since so much is simply the "right" verbal response. Go 4 it.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#43249 - 01/01/11 12:47 AM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: AlTurtle]
LovingAnyway
Member

Registered: 08/05/10
Posts: 2309
Loc: Colorado
My thoughts on Master/Slave:

Al, I love the way you visually communicate. You help me settle my thoughts. I'm not visually adept...didn't know how much your charts helped me see my stuff in a new way. Thank you very much.

Would you consider that the origin of Master/Slave is an honest, necessary one? I ask because I believe this is the position we are in when we are born, in our infancy and just beyond. It's the position we are in when we first know contentment, succor, relief, love, belonging. The feelings we have when our ENs are met. How we first taste, touch, smell, see and hear the pattern of love.

Reasonable, necessary positioning...until it becomes untenable as we know we are separate, equal human beings. For some of us, meaning me, that's 40 years later.

smile

Which is also why we see it persist all around us, this positioning, as you said, in business, in our government, friendships and acquaintances; our immediate families, our FOO...everywhere. And why our rebelling against it, saying it shouldn't be this way, helps it exist and persist...us doing what we did to break the master/slave with our parents...which affirms the relationship.

I appreciate your term "efficient" because that encompasses all of what I said, with brevity. And it makes sense to me thoroughly because what works, works, and works until it doesn't work. It's a short period of time that this relationship is efficient and necessary for humans. Conflict alerts us that it isn't working for us because we're not who we were.

I'm sharing these thoughts as I read along. I love your Truth System and how Unstable. Just got to the rebellion part.

Wow, you really nailed my marriage, too. You just keep doing that, sir. I was looking up when I typed that. I don't see you and me as side by side yet. How 'bout that?

In my mind, the one who knows more is the master. Hmmm.

Thank you for giving me the Push Downward and Push Outward awareness, a way to sort while I struggle to see what it is and where it's coming from. I've said those things to my spouse, children and others...pushing them down. I've experienced them being said to me, too. Really makes a lot of sense. I wonder why at times I've rejected the Master/Slave relationship invitation (which is what it seems to me to be when they've been said to me outside of my circle); and other times, accepted it.

Silence...oh, Al. This was huge for me. Back when our marriage was in pieces, for the first time, I chose to be consciously silent during MC. I felt like I was dying at times. I stopped talking Master talk, directing, answering, demanding. I chose to be silent when Slave spoke, to listen, hear and not reply...Slave was speaking to a new Master. I stayed present and aware. I learned to hold really still, including my face, my eyes...total silence. To get me out of the way of my WH and as an act of respect.

I knew I shut up...I didn't know how impactful it was...except for me. To choose differently. Now, six years later, I do! Wow. Thank you very much.

Now I'm thinking that honesty drive-bys are also what I did when I was Slave at the time, to speak, inform...share. Made them drive-bys because I didn't feel safe...and honest so I would stop lying by omission.

Originally Posted By: AlTurtle in "Master/Slave article
What I have come to believe is that couples are often more mature than the culture they live in.


Brilliant. I love this statement.

I think my Lizard has a lot to say about my skill of patience. I'm going to die if I don't eat right away; he won't love me if I don't do this right now; I will die of embarrassment if anyone found this out about me. That on/off, black/white input isn't coming from my mid-brain. I have a huge overlap. I'm still practicing patience and it does sooth my Lizard because I say, "See? We're okay right now." The more I use "right now" in my sentences and hear it, the more my Lizard calms down and stops all the dire alerts.

Which brought this thought...I have had a Master/Slave relationship with myself, too. Between my thoughts and my self.

I distorted healthy boundaries, blamed my Master brain for making me cross them, when I obeyed without double-checking myself. Hmmm. Definitely used the push-down and the push-out on myself.

A Whoa moment.

I felt scared when you said there is no agreement. I still have a bit of Master/Slave going on in my marriage, I think, on my part. Soothed when DH says he agrees, feels the same...and I take that to be identical to me. He might feel the same about something specific; he might not have arrived at that feeling the same exact way, from the same thoughts, beliefs and perception I did.

I'm okay now.

smile

Oh, more on MasterTalk. I'm further understanding and realize how much I use those MasterTalk words IRL and in my posts.

Reached for self-blame and punishment. Then I stopped. Breathed. Waiting to understanding more. Sending Lizard back to bed.

Thinking about "efficiency" after the summary boxes, with the pilot/landing analogy. Something shifted in me, again, where I found it understandable and reasonable that what I believed in the narrow way to stay alive, M/S, would save me in my marriage, with my parents, my friends, my life. What keeps you alive in the most perilous times, must be good for me every moment. That way, I'm safe, all around, all the time.

Understandable and reasonable for me, the child I was...not for the adult. Not even close to real or reasonable. Understandable, though. Thanks to you, I understand how the Lizard hands me rejection is death even now...he doesn't have a variety of tunes in his song collection. I accept it and thank him, and drop it. Rejection is not death...isn't death to a relationship, to my heart, to my goals or my marriage. Rejecting a request, an invitation, an idea isn't rejecting me. I see where I use "my idea" instead of "an idea". I bring home the rejection and make it of me. I have control. Except on that darn inside...oh wait. If I can accept what the Lizard alerts, thank it and drop it, then I can do the same with fear thoughts, old beliefs my brain hands me, justifications and other stuff I bring myself, too.

Experience...well, that explains me looking up at your box when I type my response to you. For a duration, it's not disrespectful...it's understandable. And it has that efficiency benefit, so I can learn faster.

grin

Now I'm wondering about Giver/Taker...from the MB website. Came to mind when you say no one is Master, Slave, Friend...we have all those choices inside us.

I finished and read a little farther, about arguments. I do believe we connect through conflict...when we are dialogical. I do think we use one another as "sounding boards" to clarify our own stuff with ourselves and that's a push-down sometimes, an object lesson. I also think it can have healthy outcomes from unhealthy actions. I also think for some humans that arguing feels like love...that the spouse will go through conflict with us is bonding; maybe most for clingers like me who see death in avoidance?

Big kudos on your wonderful article. Thank you very much for being who you are, and choosing to share. And thanks to your wife, too.

LA











_________________________
The Paradoxical Commandments

Married 28 years/Together 30
Recovered 10 years
MALovingAnyway@gmail.com

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#43348 - 01/01/11 01:08 PM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: LovingAnyway]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
What a joy in my in-basket to see this long set of read-along notes. I'm sure that a face-to-face chat with all the great wide bandwith of communication is just not going to happen. Too bad, sad.

So I'll tack on my notes to some of your questions/invitations.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Would you consider that the origin of Master/Slave is an honest, necessary one? Reasonable, necessary positioning...until it becomes untenable as we know we are separate, equal human beings. For some of us, meaning me, that's 40 years later.

It might appear that I am villifying Master/Slave. I probably started off with a sudden negativity toward it. Not any more. I think it is a useful tool that is just unsanely overused. I think it quite normal in the animal kingdom, mammals and down.

I sometimes think our culture may have somewhat evolved from horse nomads (mid-east, etc.) who adopted the structure of the herd - stallion, lead mare, lots of biting and kicking. We, humans, are in my way of thinking, endowed with a magnificent cortex designed around the capacity and display of empathy. My guess is that empathic cultures raise their kids into being full humans at about age 10-14, while our culture tends to prevent, outlaw, block the development of empathy till later (40), if at all. As I've written, military bootcamp to me is almost a perfect example of the get-rid-of-empathy school of thought. (I think this is why the most difficult marriages or relationships I have seen are among ex-military, ex-police, ex-firefighters, etc. I think we owe our Veterans more.) I believe empathy is part of being human, and is required for a good relationship.

Back to childhood stuff. My original learning was that babies, in the delivery room, can display what is called proto-empathy - can cry if they see someone's sad face. The responsibility in my mind, as a parent, is to take this tiny mammal with a growing cortex, keep it safe and connected (Lizard and Mid-Brain) while encouraging and protecting the development of higher functions like empathy. (Great book on this called Connection Parenting.)

Another clue and complication to Master/Slave is that it is all about conformity and the appearance of obedience. And I fear it pervades even out therapy rooms. This was passed to me by a wonderful guy, pre-eminent psychologist, William Glasser in his book, Choice Theory. . Anyone serious about counseling and even Peer Counseling, I think, should absorb this material. My reading --- the human brain is not built to do what it is told. All humans are chronically disobedient. We all display (or hide and later display) free will. Working with people as a friend, counselor, parent, we have to handle this.

One of the clues to the troubles in Master/Slave is lack of empathy - either displayed by the Bullies or not demanded by the bullied).

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
I think my Lizard has a lot to say about my skill of patience.
Lots of fun thoughts to comment on. But I'll stop you here. Patience/calm/peacefulness I believe is a need of the Lizard, but has to be supplied by the Cortex, ideally, or the environment, if the Cortex isn't up to the task. I believe the Lizard doesn't act with Patience - ever. I once heard "that all children are born impatient - food now! Patience was seen as the trait of a healthy adult." Now I see it that Lizard and Mid-brain are not patient - they are very quick. Tis the job of training/programming our cortexes the bring about the skills of patience. Any adult (over let's say 10) who is impatience probably just needs to learn how.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
I felt scared when you said there is no agreement.
My Lizard really reacted to that idea also. I will work on it more in the next topic, but for here let me offer some soothing thoughts.

I believe that humans see everything differently. How differently? Sometimes pretty damn close. Sometimes moderately different. Sometimes really all damn differently. Tis a continuum from close to far. But never exactly the same.

People can be agreeable. That's nice. But when they say they are "agreeing," are they really? or are they fearful of sharing their differences. I would rather they feel safe (my dedication to the Lizard) and so I adopt the position that "agreement never happens" and then I look for, and embrace, the differences. Besides this way with them sharing, my Lizard gets not giant surprises - betrayal, affairs, divorce, etc.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Oh, more on MasterTalk. I'm further understanding and realize how much I use those MasterTalk words IRL and in my posts.
Me too. When I came believe that MasterTalk sends threat to listeners (and I do believe this) one of my last edits when I post something like this is to go back and balance out any MasterTalk. At least I put energy into that. I don't think MasterTalk makes any thing more clear and I believe has the poor side effect of triggering Lizards.


Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Thanks to you, I understand how the Lizard hands me rejection is death even now...he doesn't have a variety of tunes in his song collection.

Lizard is very very very simple and common to all people. It whispers, "Uh oh! You gonna die, now" a lot. But no matter what triggers it, it seems to be the same thought, the same tune.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Now I'm wondering about Giver/Taker...from the MB website. Came to mind when you say no one is Master, Slave, Friend...we have all those choices inside us.


Choices, yes. I think they are best seen as potential roles. I can slip into my Master costume, my Slave costume, my Friend costume, etc. and people can notice which costume I am wearing. I think this is very much like Transactional Analysis, if you've ever read that, with the Parent, Child, Adult, etc.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
I do believe we connect through conflict...when we are dialogical. I do think we use one another as "sounding boards" to clarify our own stuff with ourselves.

I once found myself in a whole pile of trouble when I talked about Argument being the act of two bullies, both trying to turn their partner into a Slave or both trying to be the big Kahuna Master. I listened carefully to the people who were upset.

I believe we had differing meanings to the word Argument. Because of this confusion you will probably notice me using the word "argument" to refer to the obnoxious form using Punishement Systems. I use "sharing" to refer to the process of alternately putting forth {sharing) different views to potentially help both clarify. This sharing is valuable and sometimes called argument.

I think the distinction is whether the Lizard gets involved on both or only one side. And so for me a "good" argument is probably nurturing (Lizard safe] to all particpants and a "bad" argument is probably all about threat - Fighting for the Masters and Fleeing, Freezing, Submitting for the Slaves.

Remember my over all goal is to create models of looking at "problems" that do two things: a) makes us feel more comfortable by understanding what the hell is going on and b) points directly at what to do to remedy the problem.

Thanks LA for reading this all. Enjoy the next two articles. But do remember to breathe in between. Take the Lizard for a walk. I had/have to.

_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#43963 - 01/03/11 01:40 AM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: AlTurtle]
flowmom
Member

Registered: 11/19/10
Posts: 6821
I have read the three articles and they triggered SO many thoughts and reactions - thank you Al. If anyone wants to read them they're detailed in my thread. I'm going to throw some questions out there in case Al or anyone else can give me their thoughts:

1.
Originally Posted By: Al Turtle
One place Friend/Friend Relationship occurs is during the dating and Romantic Stage of relationships. We
commonly see Friend/Friend here, but we tend to overlook it, when perhaps this should be a clue to what is going
on in an Intimate Relationship.
Is this because the power dynamics have not yet been established in the early stages of a relationship, therefore the Friend-Friend communication comes from a healthy respect of not knowing what you are dealing with? Or is it because there is little interdependence/dependence in the early stages, therefore the "efficiency" of Master/Slave is not necessary? In the dating stage, what decisions really have to be made -- where to have dinner?

2.
I know people who intentionally and studiously use "Friend" talk. IME it's often very artificial-sounding, even if they have been using it for years! Authenticity is very important to me and I tend to mistrust people who are communicating in a way that they feel they "should" communicate. Is it responsible to have "Master thoughts" yet be doing "Friend talk"? Is that authentic communication or is it an attempt to manage the image that one projects?

3.
Originally Posted By: Al Turtle
What I have learned is that Slaves have often learned that by taking care of other people, they don't have to be self-responsible. Their posture is guided by the single internal message, "I am responsible for others." This is their primary message. This seems primarily the Lizard behavior of Submitting.
Is "walking on eggshells" submitting behaviour?

4.
Originally Posted By: Al Turtle
They will experience great shock when they discover the worlds of other people. "Wow, I didn't know she was so upset." "He has no reason to be quiet! What is the matter with him?" Their delusional state is supported by their partner's silence.
So, the typical LBS (abandoned spouse) is in a Master role when they say that they "had no idea it was that bad" and that the abandonment was a "shock"?

5.
Originally Posted By: Al Turtle
The bottom line for me is any time a person
fails to ensure that their audience is feeling safe, when they talk, I think of it as bullying.
Wow. So that triggers a question. I think that STBXH has an unusually active Lizard. His aggression is high and he has been passionate about martial arts since childhood. He's never been a drinker due to fears of losing control. The quotation seems to imply that it's the speaker's responsibility to ensure that their audience is feeling safe. But what I learned in marriage counselling was that STBXH hadn't felt safe in years due to baggage from past issues that he was unable and unwilling to address. Also, he is unusually reactive. I dealt with that by "walking on eggshells" in later years, but that's not really the same as ensuring that the audience is feeling safe. Is it realistic to ensure that others feel safe? There is some personal responsibility in "feeling safe", including being aware of one's boundaries, communicating them, addressing past hurts, etc.

6.
Originally Posted By: Al Turtle
What I have found is that develop a secure sense of self, another person is needed. Their role is crucial to your success. That someone must be a) interested in who you are - really, b) have good boundary skills themselves and c) be durable enough to stay with you as you discover yourself.
So, at what point in a relationship (ie time passed or milestones reached) would you be able to assess whether that person can do a/b/c?
_________________________
we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6

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#44024 - 01/03/11 08:46 AM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: NewEveryDay]
OurHouse
Member

Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 3027
Quote:
The bottom line for me is any time a person
fails to ensure that their audience is feeling safe, when they talk, I think of it as bullying.


This one jumped out at me. I have been continually raked over the coals when I come to the boards for advice in dealing with H's frequent AOs and DJs. Much of the advice has been "what are you doing to make him feel safe so that he doesn't AO?" But it's his CHOICE to get angry, and it's a bullying tactic, IMO. Yes, I need to examine my part in the discussion dynamic. If someone says something that upsets you, having an outburst is not the answer. We go round and round on this, never resolve it. I wind up stepping further way and he winds up wondering why his attempts at reconciliation (apologizing) don't get much of a reaction.

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#44190 - 01/03/11 12:27 PM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: flowmom]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: flowmom
1.
Originally Posted By: Al Turtle
One place Friend/Friend Relationship occurs is during the dating and Romantic Stage of relationships.
Is this because the power dynamics have not yet been established in the early stages of a relationship, therefore the Friend-Friend communication comes from a healthy respect of not knowing what you are dealing with? Or is it because there is little interdependence/dependence in the early stages, therefore the "efficiency" of Master/Slave is not necessary? In the dating stage, what decisions really have to be made -- where to have dinner?

I have two thoughts. During Romantic Love, under the influence of PEA and the Biological Dream, we revert to a "healthier us" - the way of relating that our brains are designed for. Doesn't last, but it sure feels nice! And perhaps reminds us of where we want to go in relating to others. Sure it can be clumsier, making win-win decisions ("Where do you want to go?" "No, no, where do you want to go?"). In other words, I think that Friend-Friend is natural.

Secondly I often say to a couple when I am teaching this topic, 'This is a time when you want into her pants and she got to vote "yes"' I admit I genderize it. But I can do that with gay couples, too. This often brings a laugh of recognition. Tis all about the respect given healthy boundaries.
Originally Posted By: flowmom
2. I know people who intentionally and studiously use "Friend" talk. IME it's often very artificial-sounding, even if they have been using it for years! Authenticity is very important to me and I tend to mistrust people who are communicating in a way that they feel they "should" communicate. Is it responsible to have "Master thoughts" yet be doing "Friend talk"? Is that authentic communication or is it an attempt to manage the image that one projects?

A lot of people are learning to be dialogical. I think they often use Imago MVE (Mirror, Validate, Empathize) to learn this. I believe Imago teaches it wrong. If you still sound "stilted" I think you are not through learning. I don't mix Imago MVE with the phrase "being Dialogical" at all. I accept what you call "artificial-sounding" talk as a necessary part of learning, but not as a goal.

I like your emphasis on authenticity. I have met people who, un-familiar with being "real", who use Imago MVE to stay in-authentic.

I think that should be the goal of communication - facilitated authenticity. MasterTalk and argument sure doesn't help that. I often think it might be valuable to hire a video camera team to watch Sandra and I talking. I think it looks like two authentic people interviewing each other, taking turns. Both alternately take the listening/interviewing role, full of curiosity. Both alternatelly take the revealing/exposing/sharing role.

Originally Posted By: flowmom
3.
Originally Posted By: Al Turtle
What I have learned is that Slaves have often learned that by taking care of other people, they don't have to be self-responsible. Their posture is guided by the single internal message, "I am responsible for others." This is their primary message. This seems primarily the Lizard behavior of Submitting.
Is "walking on eggshells" submitting behaviour?


Generally I think the term "walking on eggshells" refers to either Freezing or Submitting or more casually, "Laying low." Here are some links.


Originally Posted By: flowmom
4.
Originally Posted By: Al Turtle
They will experience great shock when they discover the worlds of other people.
So, the typical LBS (abandoned spouse) is in a Master role when they say that they "had no idea it was that bad" and that the abandonment was a "shock"?
I don't know about typical. Remember if both were arguing, both were trying to be Masters. And probably both didn't really know what the other was going through. When they say that phrase, I think of them as discovering and reflecting on how "blind" they had been.

Originally Posted By: flowmom
5.
Originally Posted By: Al Turtle
The bottom line for me is any time a person
fails to ensure that their audience is feeling safe, when they talk, I think of it as bullying.
Wow. So that triggers a question. I think that STBXH has an unusually active Lizard. His aggression is high and he has been passionate about martial arts since childhood. He's never been a drinker due to fears of losing control. The quotation seems to imply that it's the speaker's responsibility to ensure that their audience is feeling safe. But what I learned in marriage counselling was that STBXH hadn't felt safe in years due to baggage from past issues that he was unable and unwilling to address. Also, he is unusually reactive. I dealt with that by "walking on eggshells" in later years, but that's not really the same as ensuring that the audience is feeling safe. Is it realistic to ensure that others feel safe? There is some personal responsibility in "feeling safe", including being aware of one's boundaries, communicating them, addressing past hurts, etc.
Sure tis a puzzle. If I want to help my partner's Lizard feel safe, I gotta keep mine safe in order to do what I want. I have to calm my Lizard in order to address hers. I have to use good Boundary Skills, and then address hers. Gotta work on both Lizards at the same time. Tis easier when my partner is helping out. If I "walk on eggshells", I believe that I scare my partner's Lizard more.

Originally Posted By: flowmom
6.
Originally Posted By: Al Turtle
What I have found is that develop a secure sense of self, another person is needed. Their role is crucial to your success. That someone must be a) interested in who you are - really, b) have good boundary skills themselves and c) be durable enough to stay with you as you discover yourself.
So, at what point in a relationship (ie time passed or milestones reached) would you be able to assess whether that person can do a/b/c?

Great question. This is where you have to lead. You cannot force them to do it for you. But you CAN do it for them, which improves the atmosphere, improves their Self-esteem, models the behavior you want done to you, and invites them to reciprocate. It works.

Lots of questions. Thanks for sharing.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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#44227 - 01/03/11 01:28 PM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: AlTurtle]
OurHouse
Member

Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 3027
Big part of bullying behavior in my marriage: interruptions. (on both our parts. I am trying to get better. I don't know if I can "grade" H yet... smile )

Also, poor listening skills.

We were recommended the use of the talking "stick" or "rock". An object that you pass back and forth during a conversation. For me, a very visual person, it really helped reinforce the "this is his time to talk and your time to listen" and vice versa. For a while we were able to use it pretty successfully. But at some point, he said "this is stupid" and I haven't asked to use it since.

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#44321 - 01/03/11 03:29 PM Re: Topic 3: "Stop the Bullying!" - Building the habits of Trust. [Re: OurHouse]
AlTurtle
Retired Therapist
Member

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 908
Loc: Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: OurHouse
Big part of bullying behavior in my marriage: interruptions. We were recommended the use of the talking "stick" or "rock". But at some point, he said "this is stupid" and I haven't asked to use it since.


Hi OH. This is for a topic on Communication, but also it's about Bullying. "You have to listen to me. I don't have to listen to you." Or "I get to share with you when you are talking to me - interruption." I used Mirroring to teach myself and my partner into new habits. Our old and "normal" habits were terrible. I think a Talking Stick, Peace Pipe, or a Stone, or what have you have been used by tribal cultures for thousands of years. The issue is to me very important!

Does your H think that your current style of communicating, with lots of interruptions, is wise? I wonder.

Perhaps he doesn't need the stick anymore. Perhaps he just needs a fun reminder when he slips. One of my wife's favorites, when I interrupt, is the phrase, "Is that a new form of mirroring? {lots of sarcasm in voice} I thought I was sharing." You might ask him what kind of reminder he'd like and think of what kind you would like.

I believe you will be reminding each other not to interrupt for years and years. When we get to Communication, or if you listen to my class on it, you'll hear that I believe that some interruption is bad and some is essential. That makes things tricky to learn.
_________________________
Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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