Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 4 guests, and 92 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Nonprofit Donations
2019 Campaign Meter
ProgressGoal
$200.00 
$2000
Paypal Donation to MA
 Trending Topics(Posts)
1.Cheating wife won’t admit affair5
2.Am I still a doormat?4
3.WuD? - Moving on.2
4.Learning about life from life........1
5.Save Marriage After Exposure1
6.How To Spot A Narcissist—And Deal With All Their Manipulative BS1
7.Article: My Husband Didn’t Come Home One Night1
8.How to deconstruct a marriage.0
9.I am Sick, I am Sad, and I am needing some support.0
10.SIHW is back and Dealing with issues....0
*By replies in last 2 weeks.
In The Media(Posts)
Validation to find-win-win slutions2
Things men want3
These Are The Signs You're Dating A Narcissist3
Girlfriend's 'controlling' list of 22 rules for boyfriend goes viral: 'She sounds crazy'9
What Divorced Men Wish They Had Done Differently In Their Marriages7
Alienation of Affection / Criminal Conversation9
Would you pay your ex a 'break-up fee'? - BBC3
Delaware is now first US state to fully ban child marriage - CBS3
Nashville mayor resigns after affair, pleads guilty to theft2
7 Things Kids Need To Do For Themselves Before They Turn 13 - Healthyway1
more >>
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 37 of 40 1 2 35 36 37 38 39 40
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443798
08/07/19 11:06 PM
08/07/19 11:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,204
Monterey, CA
Fiddler Offline
Administrator
Fiddler  Offline
Administrator
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,204
Monterey, CA
A little more validation would have gone a long way. in that conversation.


"Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know that one is me."
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443802
08/08/19 10:19 PM
08/08/19 10:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 20,451
catperson Offline
Member
catperson  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 20,451
If you intend to stay together, it's good that you're being honest. I'd say the next step would be to find a way to communicate better so both of you feel heard and validated. Maybe take a class together just in that?

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: Fiddler] #443803
08/09/19 01:36 PM
08/09/19 01:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 6,982
holdingontoit Offline OP
Global Moderator
holdingontoit  Offline OP
Global Moderator
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 6,982
Originally Posted by Fiddler
A little more validation would have gone a long way. in that conversation.


I tried validation. I asked her what I could do. She said "be present". I asked if she felt abandoned and alone. She said she did. I said then she is abandoned and alone and I need to be a better companion. I told her I was not going to argue whether her feelings were right or wrong, they simply are and I accept them. I told her I was not going to argue whether my behavior was reasonable or whether other people would feel abandoned. None of that matters. All that matters is how she feels. And if she feels abandoned and alone then I need to do a better job of making myself available to her. She just sighed and rolled her eyes.

I went to lunch with her Wednesday. I offered to go to dinner with her tonight. When I suggested having dinner at 5:30, she was surprised I picked such an early time. Time is the key. She won't believe that I am sincere in trying to spend more time with her until I do it consistently. But it already may be too late.

Cat, I suggested we go to counselling. I think we have some issues that we each need to get off our chests, and it would be better to do that with someone else in the room. She declined. She doesn't see the point. But maybe a group class would be easier for her to tolerate than just the 2 of us with a counsellor.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443804
08/09/19 02:52 PM
08/09/19 02:52 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,456
B
Blair Online
Member
Blair  Online
Member
B
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,456
I think a group support class would be a great idea. Your wife could understand what other people are going through and it would help give her a better perspective.

the other thing to consider is that I think your wife's believes she is the victim. Her behavior indicates her needs are not being met and she feels like she has to take one for the team. Additionally, I think you are bending over backwards to help the present and involve engaged for your wife. This will bring you out and you will feel resentment. Your wife is feeling resentment for being a victim. (Although keep in mind I do not understand why she might think she's a victim. It just appears that way to me.)

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443805
08/09/19 05:42 PM
08/09/19 05:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,204
Monterey, CA
Fiddler Offline
Administrator
Fiddler  Offline
Administrator
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,204
Monterey, CA
We may have a different perspective on what validation is. You did indeed acknowledge her feelings and that she was entitled to them - you didn't make the classic "you shouldn't feel that way". I wouldn't have tried to move to a "solution" ("I should be a better companion") just yet, however. That's because "present" is too vague to be attempting to "solve" without more information. The most crucial things she did from my perspective was:
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
She just sighed and rolled her eyes.
That's a big clue that she hadn't felt heard and understood (i.e. validated) yet.

There are ways to track non-verbal responses, which are typically more "accurate" descriptors of what a person is feeling. These are difficult to describe in just text, since things like tone of voice and the responder's body language are crucial elements.

None of this is to deny (invalidate) your stated approach to your relationship with your wife. I doubt that she "gets" where you're coming from - mostly because she's not yet open to receiving it - and I don't think she believes that you understand her (despite the fact that your shares here suggest that you do in fact). And that's where more validation comes in - until she believes that you "get" her, she won't be able to "get" you.


"Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know that one is me."
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: Fiddler] #443807
08/09/19 06:17 PM
08/09/19 06:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 6,982
holdingontoit Offline OP
Global Moderator
holdingontoit  Offline OP
Global Moderator
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 6,982
Originally Posted by Fiddler
The most crucial things she did from my perspective was:
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
She just sighed and rolled her eyes.
That's a big clue that she hadn't felt heard and understood (i.e. validated) yet.


To me, it means that she does not believe I will actually follow through and make more time for her. She was very surprised when I asked her to join me for dinner tonight. Second weekday meal together in one week. It has been a long time since we have done that except on vacation.

She gives the same eye roll when I promise I will do a task on her honey-do list. I have disappointed her too many times. She has no faith that I will follow through on anything.

She is very focused on "solutions". She does not want to endlessly analyze why people do things. She wants to know what we are going to do RIGHT NOW to solve whatever problem she is facing. She has a medical condition. Every doctor and online article says that it takes time to determine the correct dosage of medicine to get certain blood chemicals into the "normal" range, and then more time for your body to heal itself after the blood levels have stabilized. She has no patience. To wait for long term results is torture for her. So I feel I do have to move directly into the "solution" phase when we discuss a problem or she will chalk it up as another time I was unreliable in addressing her concerns.

She is lonely with the kids gone. She wants more companionship. If I do not provide more companionship, she will find it elsewhere. I do not want her doing that, so I have to act.

And no, I don't hold out any hope that she will ever "get" me. Not even trying to help her do so. I just want her to feel I "get" her enough that she stays with me. And as you say, I haven't got there yet and she needs to hear more validation from me.

Last edited by holdingontoit; 08/09/19 06:19 PM.

Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443811
08/10/19 08:13 PM
08/10/19 08:13 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,749
HI
O
Orchid2 Offline
Ambassador
Orchid2  Offline
Ambassador
O
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,749
HI
Hold,

I commend your observation and effort but I am concerned you are creating a direction that makes demands on your more than it is fair to be.

So I ask, you recognize what you understand your wife wants from you but when is this recognize going to make it a burden vs a joy? Are you willing to live with the balances tilted in the favor of one who does not appreciate it?

I like yourself used to do more than my share. Not out of fear but out of obligation. That went on for years but eventually it became obvious it developed into a one-way relationship. The words of the WS rang in my ears 'as long as you do things (take care of the family and his bills and our obligations), he could be a WS forever'.

Now how long was I going to enable that type of attitude? Way longer than I thought. Y? Because I felt obligated. When that wore me out, I had no option but to separate and work towards divorce.

Was it going to cause inconveniences for myself and my family? Yes but it was more of a survival mode than enabling one. In turn, I had more control of my future and finances. Still a struggle but without the extra baggage and heavy weight of an uncooperative spirit.

I had to recognize that no amount of my giving was going to balance our relationship. I hope you recognize that in your M sooner than later.

jmo,
Orchid


Orchid
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443812
08/11/19 01:35 AM
08/11/19 01:35 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,456
B
Blair Online
Member
Blair  Online
Member
B
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,456
Orchid so eloquently spelled out my worry for you and Mrs. Hold. You can't save your marriage alone. You both need to work together.

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443825
08/12/19 12:58 PM
08/12/19 12:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 6,982
holdingontoit Offline OP
Global Moderator
holdingontoit  Offline OP
Global Moderator
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 6,982
Thanks for the concern, but your anxiety is misplaced.

My marriage has, from my perspective, been one-sided since our wedding. How long can I continue accepting this? Well, I have been accepting it for 27 years. Even if you remove the first 5 years, before we started seriously working on the problem. It is still a long time. Heck, even if you remove the 8 years we worked on it with counsellors, it is still a good 14 years since I gave up hope of ever resolving this - at which point it became a burden rather than a joy. I think I can continue in this manner forever.

The question you (and I) should be more concerned with is whether Mrs. Hold is willing to stay with me despite my not being 100% infatuated with everything about her. I am not sure that Mrs Hold noticed my reduced level of infatuation until DD left home. Probably not until Mrs H finished all her cancer treatments and allowed herself to look forward into the future. At which point she realized that my current level of attentiveness was not to her liking. So this is probably a very recent awareness for her.

She said out loud recently that she feels stuck in this marriage. She likes the lifestyle. She likes getting to do a low pay, low stress job. She likes flexibility to take vacations whenever she wants. But she wishes she had a partner who was happier about being tied to her. You can imagine how extremely sympathetic I am to her feeling stuck with me.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443826
08/12/19 02:26 PM
08/12/19 02:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,117
F
Fergie Offline
Member
Fergie  Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,117
Your wife is fine being married to someone she doesn't love.

She just doesn't want the same thing back...

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443827
08/12/19 06:03 PM
08/12/19 06:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,084
SFB Offline
Member
SFB  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,084
Hold:

Good luck, Man.

SFB


Finding an ethical way to deal with pain, fear, disappointment etc..is part of the experience of becoming a stronger person...one who is driven by compassion instead of compulsion...ie I have a legitimate reason to be stressed out right now...however, my response to it will determine how others percieve me, and myself. (quoting Star*Fish)
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: SFB] #443829
08/12/19 09:06 PM
08/12/19 09:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 6,982
holdingontoit Offline OP
Global Moderator
holdingontoit  Offline OP
Global Moderator
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 6,982
Originally Posted by SFB
Good luck, Man.


Thanks. I am very blessed. With my health. With my children. With my job.

And Mrs Hold is a more than decent person. She just has PTSD. At this point, I am not leaving over that. I knew there was something "wrong" that such a beautiful woman was willing to marry me. I was simply mistaken as to the source and nature of her disability. I thought it was bad skin and being a "fish out of water" for much of her adolescence that lead her to have sufficiently low self-esteem to be interested in me. I didn't know about the rapes or the extent of her aversion to sex. She picked me in part because I wasn't as pushy as many of the other guys she dated. She thought she could tolerate sex at the "service level" I demanded. She didn't realize that her aversion would escalate once she got married. And once we got on the treadmill of disagreement, neither of us knew how to get off gracefully.

I have aged into being able to tolerate the "elegant" solution of never having sex. Now I need to get Mrs Hold to feel comfortable with that solution. She is opposed to it at present. I believe this is because she thinks if we go back to having occasional sex, I will go back into the obedient puppy dog yapping at her heels. She thinks she can rekindle my infatuation. I do not believe she can, and I am not willing to try. Hopefully she will eventually reach acceptance that living with me is tolerable even if I am not infatuated with her. But maybe she can't. And maybe we won't make it "until death do us part". I hope we do.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443830
08/13/19 01:31 AM
08/13/19 01:31 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,117
F
Fergie Offline
Member
Fergie  Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,117
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I have aged into being able to tolerate the "elegant" solution of never having sex.

We all deserve the spouse we tolerate.

Something that was pointed out to me (maybe in slightly different terms) many times here by others. I'll be the first to admit, when they're right, they're right. That's why I don't get the constant attempt to change others. We all end up where we belong with the spouse we deserve. If we didn't tolerate it, we'd be somewhere else with someone else...

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: Fergie] #443833
08/13/19 02:38 PM
08/13/19 02:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 6,982
holdingontoit Offline OP
Global Moderator
holdingontoit  Offline OP
Global Moderator
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 6,982
Originally Posted by Fergie
We all deserve the spouse we tolerate.


Exactly. And she deserves me. After all, for years she desperately wanted to be married to me and stay married to me. At the beginning and all through 8 years of MC. She wanted it so desperately that she lied and hid the truth in an attempt to manipulate me into staying. And she got what she wanted. I stayed. How can she complain? Her plan worked to perfection!


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443865
08/19/19 01:01 PM
08/19/19 01:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 6,982
holdingontoit Offline OP
Global Moderator
holdingontoit  Offline OP
Global Moderator
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 6,982
Mrs Hold now cries any time I do anything to which she disapproves. As much as I do not want to divorce, this is no way to live.
She thinks her reaction is caused by my terrible behavior. I think it was triggered by her PTSD. Does not matter what started it. If she keeps viewing me as the enemy, we cannot live together.
So we may be testing Josie's theory that we would both be happier apart.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443867
08/19/19 02:43 PM
08/19/19 02:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,042
S
SmilingWife Offline
Global Moderator
SmilingWife  Offline
Global Moderator
S
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,042
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Mrs Hold now cries any time I do anything to which she disapproves. As much as I do not want to divorce, this is no way to live.
She thinks her reaction is caused by my terrible behavior. I think it was triggered by her PTSD. Does not matter what started it. If she keeps viewing me as the enemy, we cannot live together.
So we may be testing Josie's theory that we would both be happier apart.


Wow. What kind of things are making her cry?

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: SmilingWife] #443869
08/19/19 04:50 PM
08/19/19 04:50 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,456
B
Blair Online
Member
Blair  Online
Member
B
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,456
Originally Posted by SmilingWife

Wow. What kind of things are making her cry?


Exactly what I was wondering....

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: Blair] #443871
08/19/19 05:15 PM
08/19/19 05:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,392
T
TC_Manhattan Offline
Member
TC_Manhattan  Offline
Member
T
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,392
Originally Posted by Blair
Originally Posted by SmilingWife

Wow. What kind of things are making her cry?


Exactly what I was wondering....


My guess would be anything which makes her realize her loss of control over Hold.

AKA, emotional blackmail. I believe she is trying to flip the power dynamic back in her favor.

I would guess Mrs. Hold hates 50:50 relationships, those of equals.

My thoughts..

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443875
08/19/19 08:38 PM
08/19/19 08:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 6,982
holdingontoit Offline OP
Global Moderator
holdingontoit  Offline OP
Global Moderator
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 6,982
If I shrug or roll my eyes. When I indicate I do not agree with her. When she interprets my question as having an agenda that is judgmental toward her. Any time I in any way communicate through word or deed that I am not totally infatuated with her.
We met friends for lunch yesterday. She started crying when they asked how she was doing.
I am so angry with myself that I foolishly accepted her offer to try to have sex. We were getting along so well before that. Which I imagine is why she offered. I should have stood my ground and said "thanks but no thanks". I was trying to be kind and not reject her. No good deed goes unpunished.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443876
08/19/19 09:31 PM
08/19/19 09:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,749
HI
O
Orchid2 Offline
Ambassador
Orchid2  Offline
Ambassador
O
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,749
HI
So regardless of what you do, she expresses some sort of disappointment for herself and/or you?


Orchid
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443877
08/19/19 11:08 PM
08/19/19 11:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,456
B
Blair Online
Member
Blair  Online
Member
B
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,456
No sex with her. Ever again. She will use it to punish you.

Is she emotional at everything? Or just a few specific things?

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: Blair] #443878
08/20/19 12:58 PM
08/20/19 12:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 6,982
holdingontoit Offline OP
Global Moderator
holdingontoit  Offline OP
Global Moderator
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 6,982
Originally Posted by Blair
No sex with her. Ever again. She will use it to punish you.


Don't worry. I won't make that mistake again.

Quote
Is she emotional at everything? Or just a few specific things?


Everything. Anything that happens that is not perfect, she says "no one cares about me, not even the kids". Which is ridiculous. The kids love her. But they live 3000 miles away and I am guessing she is not the only mother who lives far from her kids who wishes they called more often. Our daughter texts us daily and our son replies to texts every few days so we know he is following along. I sympathize with her. I miss them too. But it is entirely false to say they do not care about her. When she got bad news from the doctor, DS offered to fly home for the weekend to console her. He is taking 2 days off work and flying cross country so he can give her a hug, then fly back. I love to see him, but this is crazy.

Still, I think she has taken it to heart that we were getting along well until she offered to try to have sex, and maybe that is the root of the problem and not that I treat her poorly. So maybe this difficult period will fade into the past. We shall see.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443880
08/20/19 09:47 PM
08/20/19 09:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,456
B
Blair Online
Member
Blair  Online
Member
B
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,456
Is she more emotional now than she was a year ago? Or two years ago?

In case you are feeling a bit perplexed, I am looking for a pattern or a recent break in a pattern to better understand what is happening.

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443893
08/21/19 01:13 PM
08/21/19 01:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 6,982
holdingontoit Offline OP
Global Moderator
holdingontoit  Offline OP
Global Moderator
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 6,982
I think with DD graduating college and moving to the opposite coast, it is sinking in that this is Mrs Hold's life now. No kids. Her job during the day. Dealing with me 1 on 1 nights and weekends.

She hates to be home alone every night. So I have made an effort to come home earlier. All we do is watch tv together, but it makes a big difference to her not to be alone. And yes, I have invited her to do evening activities during the week. Mostly she wants to take a bath and get in bed and chill. But with me there next to her. She is happy as long as I don't talk or move too much.

Also, I think the news from the doctor that there is no easy fix and she may have to live with her thyroid and eye problems for the foreseeable future got her depressed. She kept saying "I am going blind and no one cares". That is not what the doctor said. Her eyesight has not deteriorated over the past few months and she has double vision much less after the radiation treatments. So she is not declining rapidly. Still, she took 2 big body blows (sex and bad health news), and it really threw her off stride.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #443894
08/21/19 03:58 PM
08/21/19 03:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,392
T
TC_Manhattan Offline
Member
TC_Manhattan  Offline
Member
T
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,392
Perhaps she is taking your children’s move so far away as personal.

And maybe subliminally it is..

Just a thought.

Page 37 of 40 1 2 35 36 37 38 39 40

Moderated by  Chrysalis, Fiddler, Miranda 

Newest Members
Broken19, Amadhy, Farnell, 805bail, Marcin
2043 Registered Users
Latest Topics(Posts)
Article: My Husband Didn’t Come Home One Night1
How To Spot A Narcissist—And Deal With All Their Manipulative BS1
Just updating... things do get better over time.5
Validation to find-win-win slutions2
Affair World1
expired security certificate1
....micro-cheating is a thing in relationships, and here are the signs it's happening1
Warning MA Not Safe Message Keeps Popping Up6
Save Marriage After Exposure1
Save Marriage After Exposure245
Community Information
2043Members
1Penalty Box
6Suspended

42

Forums
8477Topics
461956Posts
 
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1
(Release build 20180111)
Page Time: 0.042s Queries: 14 (0.020s) Memory: 3.3787 MB (Peak: 3.7302 MB) Zlib enabled in php.ini Server Time: 2019-12-12 01:32:19 UTC