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Re: Website UP! [Re: Rich57] #312146
08/29/13 03:05 PM
08/29/13 03:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
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Marta Offline
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Lady Grey,

Having to parent your parent just stinks. I just does. There are so many things about it that just are not fair. I was glad that my dad and I were able to make peace about a lot of things, but there were still things that just couldn't be solved.. It just isn't easy when you have to take care of your parent.. I don't know that I have any words, but I remember feeling like my life was on hold and the lack of momentum.... It stinks!!!!!!!

Re: Website Down? [Re: LadyGrey] #318310
10/13/13 08:36 PM
10/13/13 08:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 46
Sim54 Offline
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Between times that I like where I am a whole lot, I hate it because I believe if you stop moving you start dying.


My analyst and I talked a lot about the need to keep moving, the fear of being still. I came to believe that this belief, that if we stop we die, is a fear of aloneness. Under everything, there is a very peaceful but scary silence, when we are just 'being' a person, doing nothing, sitting still. Whenever I felt like that, I would always run from it. It was a very scary feeling of being totally alone in the world. It felt like the world had stopped moving, and that I was the only person left alive. Over time, in my therapists office, I was able to access that peaceful, silent space for longer and longer periods and stop being afraid of it. It turned out that it wasn't the world that had stopped, but my own internal thought process that was designed to shut out the scary world that had stopped.

Something I had always noticed about it, was that I was often able to hear an aeroplane flying high overhead. I came to see that the reason I could hear that plane, so far away, was that in slowing myself down, I came out of myself, out of my self imposed prison of over thinking and over doing, and was able to connect with my surrounds. My senses, in this case my hearing, reached out into the world, and tasted it.

I believe this peaceful place is often accessed through meditation.

It is only in this place, that we become a person, connected to our surroundings, whilst conversely accepting our unique personhood, and aloneness in the world.

Last edited by Sim54; 10/13/13 08:39 PM.
Re: Website Down? [Re: Sim54] #318432
10/14/13 05:15 PM
10/14/13 05:15 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
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AlTurtle  Offline OP
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Nice to have the Lizard asleep, our need for Reliable Membership ensured, and our cortex wide awake, confident.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 1: "Friend your Lizard(s)" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #320486
10/25/13 01:27 AM
10/25/13 01:27 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,611
wiser_now Offline
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
I see every problem in relationships, mine and yours, starting with a move toward Panic.


Dear Al,

I was here, even on this thread (I think) back when it began. I have rejoined the site anew and one reason is because of your teachings. So, I'm starting at the beginning.

After reading just your first post, I can see what I didn't see before and it has prompted a question. Let me see if I can articulate it (because I do tend to ramble)...

I have a diagnosed anxiety/panic disorder. I feel panic at the slightest provocation and sometimes, there is no reason at all. How can I differentiate between actual panic and the kind of panic that my lizard freaks out at? Because, actually, it all feels real and they give me meds for that. Know what I mean?

I remember when I first read about our lizard and it resonated but... I felt myself move away from the notion for reasons I didn't understand. I moved on with you as you wrote each new subject but that lizard kept coming back to me. Yet, I couldn't quite grasp it. I think it's because safety and security is absent when you can't trust even your body. Therefore, my lizard is constantly on the lookout and after a while, stops caring because it takes too much energy. Kinda like what I did by skipping over this before and moving on... which wasn't helpful because I hadn't fully grabbed on to the first concept.

So, yeah, I'm back here, trying to learn from the beginning and and build a new foundation. Think it can be done?


A happy marriage is a long conversation which always seems too short. --Andre Maurois

Re: Topic 1: "Friend your Lizard(s)" - Building Trust [Re: wiser_now] #320552
10/25/13 03:13 PM
10/25/13 03:13 PM
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Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
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AlTurtle  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: wiser_now
I was here, even on this thread (I think) back when it began. I have rejoined the site anew and one reason is because of your teachings. So, I'm starting at the beginning.
Welcome back, wiser.

Originally Posted By: wiser_now
I have a diagnosed anxiety/panic disorder. I feel panic at the slightest provocation and sometimes, there is no reason at all. How can I differentiate between actual panic and the kind of panic that my lizard freaks out at? Because, actually, it all feels real and they give me meds for that.
Sorry this is happening, but perhaps the image of the Lizard can help. By understanding it, lots of the "scary" mystery may go away.

To me there is only one kind of Panic - the Lizard has taken off into Flee, Freeze, Submit, Fight and it does this by dumping adrenaline into the blood stream in a heavier or lighter doses. The dose of adrenaline is real every time and has to be dealt with. This is regardless of how that little guy arrived at the decision to kick off the panic.

The source of the "trigger" to its decision can be out in the world around us (grizzly bear running toward us), or can be internal (something in our memories), or even can be something going on in our body. In a Panic Attack, usually something that the adrenaline causes (very toxic chemical, raises blood pressure, breathing rate, etc.) becomes a "trigger" and the Lizard reacts to itself in a vicious - really scary cycle.

If someone's giving you drugs, that will interfere, slow down the adrenaline process but will not get rid of the "trigger." Kind of makes the Lizard react lite.

To me, finding out what are the triggers and learning how to deal with them is the second thing to do. First thing is dealing with that adrenaline.

Originally Posted By: wiser_now
that lizard kept coming back to me. Yet, I couldn't quite grasp it. I think it's because safety and security is absent when you can't trust even your body. Therefore, my lizard is constantly on the lookout
Yup. Lizard hates "unpredictive" situations and "things that seem out of control." Another word is the Lizard hates chaos. If that chaos seems to be inside your body, like a disease process or in a panic attack, the Lizard can become "on guard" all the time. Lizard becomes relaxed the second whatever is going on becomes "predictable" or "seems to be supposed to happen." Remember, it really hates chaos.

Originally Posted By: wiser_now
and after a while, stops caring because it takes too much energy. Kinda like what I did by skipping over this before and moving on... which wasn't helpful because I hadn't fully grabbed on to the first concept.
I think this is a normal "overload" mechanism built into the Cortex. Numbs out, and stops feeding data to the Lizard. Exhaustion can do this. Alcohol, pot, etc. can help do it. Faster or slower. Often happens in extreme situations. Gunshot, physical violence, etc.

For me the biggest problem in dealing with this is learned passivity. Some trigger is coming in and the person freezes and submits and does nothing about it.

Anyway, welcome back.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 1: "Friend your Lizard(s)" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #320636
10/25/13 10:03 PM
10/25/13 10:03 PM
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wiser_now Offline
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Thank you so much for your thoughtful response, Al...tho I expected nothing less. You're a class act, sir. I'm on my phone so forgive the brevity...I will type a full response tonight. Be back later!


A happy marriage is a long conversation which always seems too short. --Andre Maurois

Re: Topic 1: "Friend your Lizard(s)" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #320643
10/26/13 12:44 AM
10/26/13 12:44 AM
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wiser_now Offline
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Hi again Al, and thank you for your warm welcome and patience with me. I feel a little silly coming back to you like this. I loved what you wrote when I was here before and my ego said I knew most of it already. I like the lizard stuff but had no reason to name the darned thing... (she says sheepishly)... and I realize now that I ignored my lizard, who was SCREAMING AT THE TOP OF HER LUNGS (by the way).

Quote:
To me there is only one kind of Panic - the Lizard has taken off into Flee, Freeze, Submit, Fight and it does this by dumping adrenaline into the blood stream in a heavier or lighter doses. The dose of adrenaline is real every time and has to be dealt with. This is regardless of how that little guy arrived at the decision to kick off the panic.


This feels very true to me. You have my attention.

Quote:
The source of the "trigger" to its decision can be out in the world around us (grizzly bear running toward us), or can be internal (something in our memories), or even can be something going on in our body. In a Panic Attack, usually something that the adrenaline causes (very toxic chemical, raises blood pressure, breathing rate, etc.) becomes a "trigger" and the Lizard reacts to itself in a vicious - really scary cycle.

If someone's giving you drugs, that will interfere, slow down the adrenaline process but will not get rid of the "trigger." Kind of makes the Lizard react lite.

To me, finding out what are the triggers and learning how to deal with them is the second thing to do. First thing is dealing with that adrenaline.


So, do you (personally or professionally) advocate the use of medication to control the adrenaline while you determine what the triggers are?

For me, I'm afraid of the medication, which (as you might imagine) causes its own problems. It interacts with my migraine meds and I'm so afraid of migraines because they can disable me for hours - or days, if it's a really bad one. I would love, love, love to find a way to NOT take medication. I just don't know how feasible it is. It seems like if I can identify and manage the triggers, this panic would at least subside... if not disappear completely (wishful thinking but a girl can dream).

Quote:
Yup. Lizard hates "unpredictive" situations and "things that seem out of control." Another word is the Lizard hates chaos. If that chaos seems to be inside your body, like a disease process or in a panic attack, the Lizard can become "on guard" all the time. Lizard becomes relaxed the second whatever is going on becomes "predictable" or "seems to be supposed to happen." Remember, it really hates chaos.


YES! (Sorry to yell) I completely believe this! I am - or is it she is? - always, ALWAYS on guard.

Quote:
I think this is a normal "overload" mechanism built into the Cortex. Numbs out, and stops feeding data to the Lizard. Exhaustion can do this. Alcohol, pot, etc. can help do it. Faster or slower. Often happens in extreme situations. Gunshot, physical violence, etc.


The last overload happened when my son attempted suicide. He lived but it was so extreme (he drove off a mountain) and I was very far away and it took 3 days to get to him - honestly, it might have been four days, I can't even remember. Honest to god, I still haven't begun to deal with it and it's been two years. I mean, I had an emotional break a year after it happened and am functioning now but when I think of his crash and the aftermath - I. JUST. CAN'T. GO. THERE.

Quote:
For me the biggest problem in dealing with this is learned passivity. Some trigger is coming in and the person freezes and submits and does nothing about it.


Can you explain this more to me or point me where it's explained. I don't understand.

Thank you for covering this well-trod path with me. I know I am very late to the party and appreciate it very much!


A happy marriage is a long conversation which always seems too short. --Andre Maurois

Re: Topic 1: "Friend your Lizard(s)" - Building Trust [Re: wiser_now] #320785
10/27/13 04:16 PM
10/27/13 04:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
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Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
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AlTurtle  Offline OP
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Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: wiser_now
Quote:
For me the biggest problem in dealing with this is "learned passivity". Some trigger is coming in and the person freezes and submits and does nothing about it.
Can you explain this more to me or point me where it's explained. I don't understand.

Well, I think this is a huge subject. I imagine all the 12-step Alanon-like programs know all about it and all the inpatient addiction programs, too. "Codependent No More" I wrote at length on it in my two papers on "Power of Passivity" and "Passivity in the Foundations".

Seems there are two general responses (defensive postures) to major distress: one is hyper activity (running around like a chicken with its head off) and one is passivity (laying low). Sometimes these two postures are called "armor." A person with the second type of armor (passivity) often just "waits" for someone else to fix their distressing situation. They often have 1000s of reasons to "do nothing". They can wait all their lives out.

At some point they may question, not that they need armour (which they do) but who is in charge? Do they "control their armour" or does "their armour control them".

This situation is sometimes called "learned passivity" or "victimicity", and is quite common, and tricky to deal with. Hand me a narcissist any day! Much easier, me thinks.

Hope this helps.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 1: "Friend your Lizard(s)" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #320807
10/27/13 05:53 PM
10/27/13 05:53 PM
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wiser_now Offline
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Okay, I understand learned passivity now, Al.

So, I would suspect that from the framework of a lizard like mine (who never had that original need of safety and security met) that running around with your head cut off would be a first tier response?

In thinking about this more, I believe that when I first read your work, I stepped back at this early point.

Don't get me wrong, I read almost everything you wrote and it resonated for me but I could NOT fully grasp the most basic beginning - the foundation of your work - and without it, the rest can be helpful but not complete.

So, assuming that my lizard survived and that I've squished and squashed her into a tiny ball who only comes out to freak every once in a while... how do you suggest I go about reacquainting myself with her?


A happy marriage is a long conversation which always seems too short. --Andre Maurois

Re: Topic 1: "Friend your Lizard(s)" - Building Trust [Re: wiser_now] #320817
10/27/13 07:59 PM
10/27/13 07:59 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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AlTurtle  Offline OP
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Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: wiser_now
Okay, I understand learned passivity now, Al.

So, I would suspect that from the framework of a lizard like mine (who never had that original need of safety and security met) that running around with your head cut off would be a first tier response?
My guess would be the opposite. My guess is that it might be your habit to scare the heck out of your lizard who then lays low. But then I'm a guesser.

Originally Posted By: wiser_now
In thinking about this more, I believe that when I first read your work, I stepped back at this early point.
Say more what you think is the point where you stepped back?

Originally Posted By: wiser_now
Don't get me wrong, I read almost everything you wrote and it resonated for me but I could NOT fully grasp the most basic beginning - the foundation of your work - and without it, the rest can be helpful but not complete.
Have no idea what you are talking about. Don't know what you think is the "basic beginning" and what you mean when you say "you could not grasp it". Not sure where you are going here.

Originally Posted By: wiser_now
So, assuming that my lizard survived and that I've squished and squashed her into a tiny ball who only comes out to freak every once in a while... how do you suggest I go about reacquainting myself with her?
My imagination is that it is not a matter of acquainting yourself so much as "taking responsibility for her feeling safe." Choosing to do what needs to be done so that she relaxes. Seems to me the relationship between a person's self and their Lizard (a piece of their self) is one of responsibility.

If "squished and squashed her" in order to be safe during your past, all well and good. You survived. Hooray. But, if that's close, now she probably would see you yourself as the threat - the "squisher and squasher in her life."

Sorry if what I am saying isn't clear. Let's keep trying.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 1: "Friend your Lizard(s)" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #320826
10/27/13 09:07 PM
10/27/13 09:07 PM
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wiser_now Offline
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
My guess would be the opposite. My guess is that it might be your habit to scare the heck out of your lizard who then lays low. But then I'm a guesser.


The opposite. WOW... I really had it wrong. lol

I like your guesser.

Still trying to understand...

Quote:
Say more what you think is the point where you stepped back?


At some point during the original lizard discussion, I became so uncomfortable that I just moved on to the next subject. I don't know whether it's the lizard itself that bothers/ scares/ threatens me or if it's because I'm not a huge fan of reptiles (lol) or it triggered something else. I never really looked at what it was. But I am now. That's why I'm here.

Originally Posted By: wiser_now
Don't get me wrong, I read almost everything you wrote and it resonated for me but I could NOT fully grasp the most basic beginning - the foundation of your work - and without it, the rest can be helpful but not complete.


Quote:
Have no idea what you are talking about. Don't know what you think is the "basic beginning" and what you mean when you say "you could not grasp it". Not sure where you are going here.


The Lizard is your foundational work - when you and your wife talked, she said of course you would begin with the lizard. Why I couldn't grasp it is covered in my response above. I'm thinking that is what less about grasping and more about running away. I'm not running anymore. I want to learn.

Quote:
My imagination is that it is not a matter of acquainting yourself so much as "taking responsibility for her feeling safe." Choosing to do what needs to be done so that she relaxes. Seems to me the relationship between a person's self and their Lizard (a piece of their self) is one of responsibility.

If "squished and squashed her" in order to be safe during your past, all well and good. You survived. Hooray. But, if that's close, now she probably would see you yourself as the threat - the "squisher and squasher in her life."

Sorry if what I am saying isn't clear. Let's keep trying.


I'm here. smile

I agree that I am the squisher and squasher.

So, I need to make her feel safe enough to show herself to me... cuz I wouldn't recognize her... that's why I called it reacquainting.

Thank you for discussing this with me.


A happy marriage is a long conversation which always seems too short. --Andre Maurois

Re: Topic 1: "Friend your Lizard(s)" - Building Trust [Re: wiser_now] #320848
10/27/13 11:02 PM
10/27/13 11:02 PM
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Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: wiser_now
The opposite. WOW... I really had it wrong. lol.
Well at least we saw it differently. You are the final decider about yourself, I think, not me.

Originally Posted By: wiser_now
At some point during the original lizard discussion, I became so uncomfortable that I just moved on to the next subject. I don't know whether it's the lizard itself that bothers/ scares/ threatens me or if it's because I'm not a huge fan of reptiles (lol) or it triggered something else. I never really looked at what it was. But I am now. That's why I'm here.
Got it.

Originally Posted By: wiser_now
The Lizard is your foundational work
Not sure where I have said this. I certainly think of the metaphor of The Lizard as critical to all my work and I think of Safety as foundational to everyone's lives. I can now see at least partially why you think you missed some "foundational" concepts.

Originally Posted By: wiser_now
I'm thinking that is was less about "grasping" and more about "running away".
Got it. Back then it was a kind of running or Fleeing.

Originally Posted By: wiser_now
I agree that I am the squisher and squasher.
So, I need to make her feel safe enough to show herself to me...
Well, that's more clear. But I want to modify your approach to the Lizard. She lives inside that beautiful shell of your cortex. As such you and your thinking and memories are her closest companion. If you are trying to "squash" her, think "squashie thoughts", she'll be really really reactive and defensive. On the other hand, if you take care of her and make sure that only those outside of you try to do the "squashing", then she'll start to trust you. Tis about Boundary Skills.

Pretend my Lizard has grown up scared of yelling. If a neighbor yells at me, I move away and my Lizard is grateful. If my neighbor yells at me and I chose to stand still letting the person yell into my ears, my Lizard doesn't trust me for not protecting it. And worst, if I yell at my Lizard, where does it go? It's trapped. I think Lizards hate traps.

Originally Posted By: wiser_now
cuz I wouldn't recognize her... that's why I called it reacquainting.
Oh, I see. But my guess is that you are well acquainted with your Lizard's cries for help and it's defensive maneuvers. I'm guessing you just need to continue learning what it needs to feel Safe and how to give it those needs no matter what other people are doing.

Good luck.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 1: "Friend your Lizard(s)" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #321074
10/28/13 11:17 PM
10/28/13 11:17 PM
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wiser_now Offline
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Thank you for your kindness and patience, Al.

If I have more questions, I'll return...

I'm off to coax my lizard to come out... I'll need all the luck I can get!


A happy marriage is a long conversation which always seems too short. --Andre Maurois

Re: Topic 1: "Friend your Lizard(s)" - Building Trust [Re: wiser_now] #321635
11/04/13 12:32 AM
11/04/13 12:32 AM
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wiser_now Offline
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Hi Al,

I have spent this weekend reading your articles and this thread. I'm not yet ready to move to the second topic because I still can't coax my lizard out from under that rock. She hasn't felt safe for a long time and while she prefers the warm sunlight, she crouches just at the edge of the dark and waits. I can actually see her... eyes open... wishing she could come out. I want her to, too! So, my self-imposed homework includes:

Creating a bully-free zone
Talking to her soothingly
Re-learning how to breath properly (I have asthma and severe acid reflux with esophageal issues that mimic asthma attacks)
Making a list of calming activities we both like - baths are (hands-down) our favorite activity!

I plan to move forward through your threads... but for right now... just trying to show her I'm listening...

PS: I am 100% positive that she's female. cloud9


A happy marriage is a long conversation which always seems too short. --Andre Maurois

Re: Topic 1: "Friend your Lizard(s)" - Building Trust [Re: wiser_now] #403117
01/08/16 07:10 PM
01/08/16 07:10 PM
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L
LadyGrey Offline
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L
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Bump for Seeking


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Topic 1: "Friend your Lizard(s)" - Building Trust [Re: LadyGrey] #403122
01/08/16 07:42 PM
01/08/16 07:42 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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AlTurtle  Offline OP
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Just saw your "bump", LG. I'm still teaching this material. Got a class on the Lizard next weekend in Anacortes Washington. Last fun class was in a weekend with a bunch of Imago Therapists in Vancouver BC. Average of over 8 people a day have read my primary article on Safety over the past 4 years. Safety, Trust, and the Lizard

Glad you people are still working on this. I salute you all.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 1: "Friend your Lizard(s)" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #403271
01/11/16 04:21 PM
01/11/16 04:21 PM
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The Dark Side of the Moon
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The Dark Side of the Moon
I love Anacortes. It's just gorgeous.


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Topic 1: "Friend your Lizard(s)" - Building Trust [Re: AntigoneRisen] #404780
02/09/16 08:52 PM
02/09/16 08:52 PM
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I have been coming to these forums for 1 1/2 years and am feeling completely stuck in my separation and divorce.
Now that I have the freedom to make my own choices I don't trust myself. It just occurred to me that I should start reading some of Al's writings here in the whiteboard area and what do I see, a mention of my town, Anacortes. I wish I would have put two and two together when Al was here last month. I'm sure I would have benefitted from his talk.
Yes, AR, Anacortes is a gorgeous place to live.


Myself 54 yrs old
STBXH 56 yrs old
DD 25
DD 23
DDAY 12/29/13
Divorce still in the process.......
*Waiting for someone else to make you happy is the best way to be sad.*
Re: Topic 1: "Friend your Lizard(s)" - Building Trust [Re: DBeedone] #404814
02/10/16 04:10 PM
02/10/16 04:10 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Hi, DBeeDone, glad to hear from you. I'm still wandering over to Anacortes once a month for a couple of hours in public at the Center for Happiness, downtown. Do it on the third Saturday morning of the month. Did a whole session on Lizard last month. You're welcome to join. It's a friendly group. Link to the classes.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
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