I definitely see FWB as different from just a booty call buddy. I do things with my friends that don't involve sex. We meet for dinners, have parties, go do things we enjoy in common. When the "benefits" get added in, for me it doesn't become all about sex, it just means that sometimes we don't go home alone after the dinner, movies, shooting range, whatever.

Frankly, my FWB relationships have been healthier than either of my marriages. They've certainly been more honest. Maybe there's a lesson in that statement - that we have a tendency in marriage to treat the most important person in our lives as something other than a friend, and it kills the marriage in the end.

Ok, it's late and I think I'm starting to wax poetic, but connections are firing off in my brain - I see a correlation in my situation at least to concepts that Al Turtle teaches and also to some of Dr. Harley's. In my FWB relationships, we act as peers (Al) instead of master/slave. Somehow my romantic relationships always end up skewed to some form of the master/slave dynamic. With friends, we tend to maintain the more equal dynamic. Also, with my friends in general (including but not limited to "benefits") we tend to maintain a better balance of the "giver" and "taker" (Harley) because while we care about each other's feelings, it's not to our own detriment. While in the romantic relationship, it's too easy to decide that we're supposed to be "givers" and then the "taker" gets fed up with it and the pendulum swings the other way.

The interesting thing for me in looking at it this way is that my 2nd marriage started out as a friendship. I can look back and see the point where the dynamic changed, and while I'm not excusing ANY of Ex#2's poor behaviour, once we were "in a relationship" my perspective changed and I started tolerating his master talk and other manipulations, stopped maintaining my own boundaries, and started reacting to his moves in the dance instead of being true to myself.

So somewhere I've internalized the idea that if I'm in a LTR, the rules are somehow different than those for friendship. I'm going to have to sit with this for a while.

After my first divorce I had a FWB relationship. In my opinion it is dating.

It is dating without the expectation that the relationship will eventually lead to a marriage.

Thread Title Idea: Dating without expectations.

One of the landmines in a FWB relationship is that even if both people start off with the intention of remaining friends and "not falling in Love" with the other person... feelings change. One person falls in love and the other doesn't. It's a recipe to set one person up for a "dissapointment" and set the other person up to be "the bad Guy/Gal". It may not have the ugly ending that a "love" relationship has... But the friendship eventually fades and both people drift apart.

JMO.

Ok, so continuing with what Amazin said about FWB really being dating just without future plans.

I think that's true. After I posted my comment last night and after another poster said something, I got curious about what the conventional "rules" are for FWB. What I found by and large is not what *I* consider FWB. What was described in all the sites I visited (about 8) was what I consider a "booty call" relationship - no dinners, no movies, no activities, just someone you have sex with.

IMHO, dating should always be without expectations (other than the basics, like respect). Whether the goal is a booty call relationship, or an activity partner that you sleep with, or a LTR or marriage, expectations don't get you there.

I agree and disagree. I agree that expectations "don't get you there"... But the key word in your quote above is "should"

I think people put high expectations on "romantic relationships" all the time that they would not put on a friendship ... and usually from date one. Expectations have been stated many times on the "online dating" thread. For example: How many dates should you have before having sex? Or, "Should the man pursue the woman" Everyone has their own opinion (what they expect)

And to add on a bit more about communication and honesty - I find that I and my friends are "brutally" honest with each other. I put that in quotes because while some truths are hard to communicate, it's better for our friendship to get this stuff out and talked about, and resolved than to let it fester. And we always communicate these things with care for the other person's feelings, and an openness to their perspective. (Pre-validation.)

There are things that I can say to my male friends in jest that I would never say to my female friends... KWIM?

And that some expectations are completely reasonable.

For example, let's say that I have a need that my husband [...]

I think people put high expectations on "romantic relationships" all the time that they would not put on a friendship ... and usually from date one.

Expectations have been stated many times on the "online dating" thread. For example: How many dates should you have before having sex? Or, "Should the man pursue the woman" Everyone has their own opinion (what they expect)

It seems to me that people have high expectations of their dating partners and become emotionally attached before they become friends. Shouldn't it be the other way around? If you go on a date with someone and remove the expectation that they should do A, B and C it takes the pressure off of you and them and allows you to relax, have fun and develop a friendship. KWIM?

Thankyou. I don't want to be treated like one of the boys, and some men don't seem to get that.

The problem occurs when expectations develop in a dating relationship before there is much of a foundation. I think that people tend to miss being in a relationship, and often jump right into relationship-like dynamics before they really know what makes their dating partners tick.

I absolutely believe that clearly stated expectations are reasonable in committed relationships! Of course I have expectations of Pookie, and vice versa. I was talking about dating. The problem occurs when expectations develop in a dating relationship before there is much of a foundation. I think that people tend to miss being in a relationship, and often jump right into relationship-like dynamics before they really know what makes their dating partners tick. In the beginning stages of dating, people are often eager to please and happy to be flexible to meet directly or indirectly stated expectations. But once that starts you really don't get to see what you're actually dealing with. Letting people be themselves without imposing expectations allows one to filter people based on seeing them live out their true character.

Yabut......

The firefighter can do it all. He can rescue kittens, give advice on clothes (I'm thinking he might be gay), fix computers, etc.

Yabut......

The firefighter can do it all. He can rescue kittens, give advice on clothes (I'm thinking he might be gay), fix computers, etc.

And put out fires. Never forget putting out fires.

I'm thinking he can light a fire, too. Just sayin'.

Amazin - I agree that a woman needs to not try and be a man.

But I'm also amused at stereotypes. In my close circle of GF's there are 2 of us who tend to be more "masculine" than the typical woman. We are always joking about our "man cards" and losing them when we go for mani/pedi's. (I always regain mine by buying power tools or challenging one of the guys to spar. My friend C regains hers by peeing standing up. Tee hee.) When the gang is all hanging out together, C and I are just as likely to be going shot for shot with the guys and talking trash with them as we are to be knitting with the rest of the girls.

However, one of the guys I dated earlier in the year probably phrased it best. It's not that we're trying to be guys, we're just the "warrior woman" types and we fit in well with the boys. It intimidates some men, is a turn-off to others, and highly desirable to yet another group (and those are the ones we end up with.)

So I think like so many other things in life, gender identity tends to be on a continuum and it's not about one or two places on that continuum being right and the rest wrong. It's about being true to yourself and being yourself with the people who love you.