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Dating without expectations #241101
06/18/12 05:07 PM
06/18/12 05:07 PM
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TACticGAL Offline OP
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Carrying over from the other thread:

Originally Posted By: TACticGAL
I definitely see FWB as different from just a booty call buddy. I do things with my friends that don't involve sex. We meet for dinners, have parties, go do things we enjoy in common. When the "benefits" get added in, for me it doesn't become all about sex, it just means that sometimes we don't go home alone after the dinner, movies, shooting range, whatever.

Frankly, my FWB relationships have been healthier than either of my marriages. They've certainly been more honest. Maybe there's a lesson in that statement - that we have a tendency in marriage to treat the most important person in our lives as something other than a friend, and it kills the marriage in the end.

Ok, it's late and I think I'm starting to wax poetic, but connections are firing off in my brain - I see a correlation in my situation at least to concepts that Al Turtle teaches and also to some of Dr. Harley's. In my FWB relationships, we act as peers (Al) instead of master/slave. Somehow my romantic relationships always end up skewed to some form of the master/slave dynamic. With friends, we tend to maintain the more equal dynamic. Also, with my friends in general (including but not limited to "benefits") we tend to maintain a better balance of the "giver" and "taker" (Harley) because while we care about each other's feelings, it's not to our own detriment. While in the romantic relationship, it's too easy to decide that we're supposed to be "givers" and then the "taker" gets fed up with it and the pendulum swings the other way.

The interesting thing for me in looking at it this way is that my 2nd marriage started out as a friendship. I can look back and see the point where the dynamic changed, and while I'm not excusing ANY of Ex#2's poor behaviour, once we were "in a relationship" my perspective changed and I started tolerating his master talk and other manipulations, stopped maintaining my own boundaries, and started reacting to his moves in the dance instead of being true to myself.

So somewhere I've internalized the idea that if I'm in a LTR, the rules are somehow different than those for friendship. I'm going to have to sit with this for a while.


I'll post in a bit what my history is with the differences between the relationships I have with friends (including FWB) vs. boyfriends/husbands.


Let me not be so vain to think I'm the sole author of my victories and and a victim of my defeats. -- ze frank
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: TACticGAL] #241104
06/18/12 05:16 PM
06/18/12 05:16 PM
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Ok, so continuing with what Amazin said about FWB really being dating just without future plans.

I think that's true. After I posted my comment last night and after another poster said something, I got curious about what the conventional "rules" are for FWB. What I found by and large is not what *I* consider FWB. What was described in all the sites I visited (about 8) was what I consider a "booty call" relationship - no dinners, no movies, no activities, just someone you have sex with.

For me, a FWB is a situation where you are actually friends - you enjoy spending time with them doing things OTHER than sex, you just "add" those "benefits" to a friendship. You go out for dinner, but it's usually dutch or you trade off paying. Same for movies or whatever other activities you both enjoy. It just means you don't always go home alone after such activities. It's also explicitly discussed up front that there's no expectations of a LTR, and you are not exclusively dating, though there can be (and for me it's essential) an agreement that the sex is exclusive.

So perhaps I shouldn't be using the term "FWB". Amazin suggested the thread title and maybe that's what it is - just dating without expectations. smile


Let me not be so vain to think I'm the sole author of my victories and and a victim of my defeats. -- ze frank
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: TACticGAL] #241113
06/18/12 05:49 PM
06/18/12 05:49 PM
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IMHO, dating should always be without expectations (other than the basics, like respect). Whether the goal is a booty call relationship, or an activity partner that you sleep with, or a LTR or marriage, expectations don't get you there. Treat one another with respect and create opportunities where your dating partner has the choice to give you what you want. Then pay attention to what happens. If you don't get what you want, creating and communicating expectations may get the dating partner to give you what you want...for a while. But it doesn't give you a person who freely gives you want you want by their own choice. How many of us ended up in marriages where our former spouses were not willing to meet basic emotional needs? How can we prevent that from happening again?

Pookie and I spent months and hundreds of hours communicating before we even met. And meeting was a big deal - an international trip for ten days. During that time we never talked about "us", we never had "ground rules", we never "defined the relationship", or anything. It was very intentional on both of our parts. We both believed that any attempt to manipulate/push/guide/nudge the other person towards meeting our own needs/agendas would prevent us from seeing the other person's character manifested through their actions. There was only one way to learn what we needed to know - be ourselves and allow the other person to choose. It was a strange situation to be in, where we focused on one another in a very open-ended context where nothing was certain or clear-cut. But it was during that time that the rock solid trust and connection was built that is the foundation for the life that we are now sharing.

Last edited by flowmom; 06/18/12 05:55 PM. Reason: typo

we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: TACticGAL] #241129
06/18/12 06:38 PM
06/18/12 06:38 PM
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From the online dating thread:

Originally Posted By: Amazin
After my first divorce I had a FWB relationship. In my opinion it is dating.

It is dating without the expectation that the relationship will eventually lead to a marriage.

Thread Title Idea: Dating without expectations.

One of the landmines in a FWB relationship is that even if both people start off with the intention of remaining friends and "not falling in Love" with the other person... feelings change. One person falls in love and the other doesn't. It's a recipe to set one person up for a "dissapointment" and set the other person up to be "the bad Guy/Gal". It may not have the ugly ending that a "love" relationship has... But the friendship eventually fades and both people drift apart.

JMO.


Originally Posted By: Tac
Ok, so continuing with what Amazin said about FWB really being dating just without future plans.

I think that's true. After I posted my comment last night and after another poster said something, I got curious about what the conventional "rules" are for FWB. What I found by and large is not what *I* consider FWB. What was described in all the sites I visited (about 8) was what I consider a "booty call" relationship - no dinners, no movies, no activities, just someone you have sex with.


Based on the FWB rules described...I wouldn't concider that a friendship. So let's call a spade a spade shall we? It's a booty call.

It sounds like the rules that the websites describe are intended to keep a person emotionally un-attached and ultimately keep them from being hurt. I understand the concept but apply that same set of rules to a normal (non sexual) friendship... It would be more like an aquaintance that you see on occasion at work, or the laundry mat or your favorite bookstore. Not really the same is it?

So ... what would you concider a friend? (A General description... take opposite gender out of the equation.)

For me... my friends are people who I have common interest with, I enjoy hanging out with them and doing things with them. I genuinely like and care about the person but it's not the same as the relationship with a romantic partner, my kids, parents or siblings. I don't have to call them every day or see them a certain amount of times each week. We might even go several weeks without talking or seeing each other. We can hang out with a group of people or do something together. (Just us) If I call my friend and ask them to help me with (fill in the blank) I know they'll probably help. But if they say "No" it's OK and I'm not going to get wrapped around the axle about it. Me and my friends talk about everything and laugh a lot. There's a lot of good natured ribbing (and the occational practical joke) that goes on. Debates about every other subject from sports to politics are common and also involve good natured ribbing. It's all in good fun and intended to get the most laughs.

I have ideas about how "Dating without Expectations" can be healthy. But I'll wait until there are some more descriptions on friendship.


Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men.
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: flowmom] #241143
06/18/12 07:13 PM
06/18/12 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: flowmom
IMHO, dating should always be without expectations (other than the basics, like respect). Whether the goal is a booty call relationship, or an activity partner that you sleep with, or a LTR or marriage, expectations don't get you there.


I'm an oxymoron...LOL

I agree and disagree. I agree that expectations "don't get you there"... But the key word in your quote above is "should"

I think people put high expectations on "romantic relationships" all the time that they would not put on a friendship ... and usually from date one. Expectations have been stated many times on the "online dating" thread. For example: How many dates should you have before having sex? Or, "Should the man pursue the woman" Everyone has their own opinion (what they expect)

Flow I think you and I probably see things the same way... My point of defining a friend... was to apply those same expectations to someone you date... It seems to me that people have high expectations of their dating partners and become emotionally attached before they become friends. Shouldn't it be the other way around? If you go on a date with someone and remove the expectation that they should do A, B and C it takes the pressure off of you and them and allows you to relax, have fun and develop a friendship. KWIM?

Last edited by Amazin; 06/18/12 07:32 PM.

Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men.
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: Amazin] #241144
06/18/12 07:19 PM
06/18/12 07:19 PM
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TACticGAL Offline OP
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You've aptly described my concept of friendship.

We have common interests.
We like spending time together.
We can go for weeks without seeing each other and pick up right where we left off. Incidentally - when one of us feels like we haven't seen the other in too long, we just call/email/IM/txt/FB and say *just that* - "We haven't gotten together in a while and I miss you. Are you free sometime soon?" No pressure, no guilt, just an honest communication about what we are feeling and a request to be honored or not.
We talk about anything and everything, and it's never personal, we don't expect our friends to echo our opinions of anything (that would be boring).
Lots of laughter and enjoyment.
We care for and support each other, but it's out of love, not obligation. When one of us needs something, if it's something we can do/give without pain, we do it. And if it would cause us pain, our friends wouldn't want us to do it.

And to add on a bit more about communication and honesty - I find that I and my friends are "brutally" honest with each other. I put that in quotes because while some truths are hard to communicate, it's better for our friendship to get this stuff out and talked about, and resolved than to let it fester. And we always communicate these things with care for the other person's feelings, and an openness to their perspective. (Pre-validation.)


Let me not be so vain to think I'm the sole author of my victories and and a victim of my defeats. -- ze frank
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: Amazin] #241158
06/18/12 07:52 PM
06/18/12 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: Amazin
I agree and disagree. I agree that expectations "don't get you there"... But the key word in your quote above is "should"

I think people put high expectations on "romantic relationships" all the time that they would not put on a friendship ... and usually from date one. Expectations have been stated many times on the "online dating" thread. For example: How many dates should you have before having sex? Or, "Should the man pursue the woman" Everyone has their own opinion (what they expect)


I also agree and disagree.

I would offer that it's the unreasonable and unvoiced requests that cause the most problem. And that some expectations are completely reasonable.

For example, let's say that I have a need that my husband be home at a certain time each night, barring an emergency or something that came up and work, and then I expect a phone call to let me know. And let's all assume it's a "valid" need. If I have the expectation that this need is met but leave it unvoiced, then I'm going to be hurt. Now, if I'm expecting him to never have flexibility in this, or am expecting him to travel at warp speed, then it's unreasonable. It's easy to say that we shouldn't expect anything of another person, that they should be free to meet your request or not. But the nature of a relationship is that you should be able to expect *some* things, including meeting the other person's needs (within the context of the relationship) if you can. If my husband refuses to meet a need I've expressed, we have a problem. Now, one step further - say he agrees to this. I assert that it's a reasonable expectation of someone you have any deep level relationship with to do what they say they will do unless there are circumstances beyond their control. So if he said he would do this I should have the expectation that he will do it.

So when someone I've been out with cancels a date and says he'll get with me later to reschedule, I expect him to do so. When he doesn't, I'm disappointed. If it was a 2nd or 3rd date, I'm writing him off unless later he contacts me and his kid was in the hospital or something similar.

I absolutely agree that we tend to have different levels of expectations for a romantic partner (or potential one) than we do for a friend - frequently unvoiced or unreasonable. And I really think *that* is the problem.


Let me not be so vain to think I'm the sole author of my victories and and a victim of my defeats. -- ze frank
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: TACticGAL] #241179
06/18/12 08:56 PM
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Quote:
And to add on a bit more about communication and honesty - I find that I and my friends are "brutally" honest with each other. I put that in quotes because while some truths are hard to communicate, it's better for our friendship to get this stuff out and talked about, and resolved than to let it fester. And we always communicate these things with care for the other person's feelings, and an openness to their perspective. (Pre-validation.)


Interesting... In some ways I think friends are not as restrained as romantic relationships when it comes to honesty. A friend will tell you "You're screwing up" and not think twice about it. Seems like romance parters are more reserved... for fear of hurting your feelings or starting a fight...

I also think that men and women have differnt ways of being "Brutally" honest. If a man is in the company of a group of men they'll use humor to be honest... (Pokeing fun at my stupid decision to get a laugh.) If it's a "No bull" serious subject they'll talk one on one.

There are things that I can say to my male friends in jest that I would never say to my female friends... KWIM?


Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men.
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: Amazin] #241209
06/18/12 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: Amazin

There are things that I can say to my male friends in jest that I would never say to my female friends... KWIM?


Thankyou. I don't want to be treated like one of the boys, and some men don't seem to get that.


"I feel sad that I focused so much on his potential and so little on mine."
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: TACticGAL] #241214
06/18/12 11:18 PM
06/18/12 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: TACticGAL
And that some expectations are completely reasonable.

For example, let's say that I have a need that my husband [...]
I absolutely believe that clearly stated expectations are reasonable in committed relationships! Of course I have expectations of Pookie, and vice versa. I was talking about dating. The problem occurs when expectations develop in a dating relationship before there is much of a foundation. I think that people tend to miss being in a relationship, and often jump right into relationship-like dynamics before they really know what makes their dating partners tick. In the beginning stages of dating, people are often eager to please and happy to be flexible to meet directly or indirectly stated expectations. But once that starts you really don't get to see what you're actually dealing with. Letting people be themselves without imposing expectations allows one to filter people based on seeing them live out their true character.


we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: Amazin] #241219
06/18/12 11:29 PM
06/18/12 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: Amazin
I think people put high expectations on "romantic relationships" all the time that they would not put on a friendship ... and usually from date one.
Agreed.
Originally Posted By: Amazin
Expectations have been stated many times on the "online dating" thread. For example: How many dates should you have before having sex? Or, "Should the man pursue the woman" Everyone has their own opinion (what they expect)
I see what you mean. I guess I'd distinguish between finding certain behaviours/actions attractive in a dating partner (making it more likely that I'd be willing to truly get to know them more deeply) vs. having expectations from a specific dating partner before there is a real relationship.

Originally Posted By: Amazin
It seems to me that people have high expectations of their dating partners and become emotionally attached before they become friends. Shouldn't it be the other way around? If you go on a date with someone and remove the expectation that they should do A, B and C it takes the pressure off of you and them and allows you to relax, have fun and develop a friendship. KWIM?
I sort of agree. Except that a male/female friendship that is coloured by attraction (assuming heterosexuality) is a different animal than other kinds of friendships.


we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: believer] #241223
06/18/12 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted By: believer
Originally Posted By: Amazin

There are things that I can say to my male friends in jest that I would never say to my female friends... KWIM?


Thankyou. I don't want to be treated like one of the boys, and some men don't seem to get that.


Well... I would think that there are things that females can say or talk about to their female friends that they wouldn't say or talk about with their male friends.

A girl who tries to be one of the guys is... well... unatural and awkward. And that reminds me of a story...

I was stationed with a guy who was a COUNTRY BOY... Redneck from head to toe... The first time I met him was when he walked in to the office to get his Navy pay check. (Yes this was before direct deposit) He was wearing a cowboy hat, cowboy boots, and wrangler jeans with a worn out circle on his back pocket from his can of copenhagen. His wife walked in right behind him... she was wearing a cowboy hat, cowboy boots and wrangler jeans with a worn out circle on her back pocket from her can of copenhagen... grin At first I didn' think too much about the copenhagen ring. But after I got to know her I should have realized it was an omen.

I can't remember her real name but we all called her Billy. She acted more masculine than some of the guys... Cussed like a sailor, chewed tobacco and drank like a fish. She had no problem picking a fight with a guy, flahing her t!ts or getting thrown out of the local bar.

Unatractive female charateristics if you ask me.


Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men.
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: Amazin] #241228
06/18/12 11:59 PM
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Here's what I'm looking for in a FWB guy -





"I feel sad that I focused so much on his potential and so little on mine."
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: believer] #241234
06/19/12 12:24 AM
06/19/12 12:24 AM
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laugh1


Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men.
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: flowmom] #241266
06/19/12 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted By: flowmom
The problem occurs when expectations develop in a dating relationship before there is much of a foundation. I think that people tend to miss being in a relationship, and often jump right into relationship-like dynamics before they really know what makes their dating partners tick.


Agree ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


"I feel sad that I focused so much on his potential and so little on mine."
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: believer] #241268
06/19/12 03:12 AM
06/19/12 03:12 AM
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TACticGAL Offline OP
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Believer - my friends and I have been passing around that video for weeks now. It's fantastic!! Now, my dream guy is Eric Northman from True Blood, but I wouldn't kick that firefighter out of bed, yanno? wink


Let me not be so vain to think I'm the sole author of my victories and and a victim of my defeats. -- ze frank
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: flowmom] #241270
06/19/12 03:13 AM
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Originally Posted By: flowmom
Originally Posted By: TACticGAL
And that some expectations are completely reasonable.

For example, let's say that I have a need that my husband [...]
I absolutely believe that clearly stated expectations are reasonable in committed relationships! Of course I have expectations of Pookie, and vice versa. I was talking about dating. The problem occurs when expectations develop in a dating relationship before there is much of a foundation. I think that people tend to miss being in a relationship, and often jump right into relationship-like dynamics before they really know what makes their dating partners tick. In the beginning stages of dating, people are often eager to please and happy to be flexible to meet directly or indirectly stated expectations. But once that starts you really don't get to see what you're actually dealing with. Letting people be themselves without imposing expectations allows one to filter people based on seeing them live out their true character.


Ok, I get where you're coming from now, and I agree. Having expectations of someone you don't have a relationship with yet is unreasonable IMNSHO, and it's unlikely that they've been expressed either. smile


Let me not be so vain to think I'm the sole author of my victories and and a victim of my defeats. -- ze frank
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: TACticGAL] #241271
06/19/12 03:15 AM
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Yabut......

The firefighter can do it all. He can rescue kittens, give advice on clothes (I'm thinking he might be gay), fix computers, etc.


"I feel sad that I focused so much on his potential and so little on mine."
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: believer] #241272
06/19/12 03:17 AM
06/19/12 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted By: believer
Yabut......

The firefighter can do it all. He can rescue kittens, give advice on clothes (I'm thinking he might be gay), fix computers, etc.


And put out fires. Never forget putting out fires.

I'm thinking he can light a fire, too. Just sayin'. wink

Last edited by Kirby; 06/19/12 03:18 AM.

Kirby
Divorced after 25 years of marriage
Buncha' kids, 2 of them are still minors
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: TACticGAL] #241274
06/19/12 03:21 AM
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Amazin - I agree that a woman needs to not try and be a man.

But I'm also amused at stereotypes. In my close circle of GF's there are 2 of us who tend to be more "masculine" than the typical woman. We are always joking about our "man cards" and losing them when we go for mani/pedi's. (I always regain mine by buying power tools or challenging one of the guys to spar. My friend C regains hers by peeing standing up. Tee hee.) When the gang is all hanging out together, C and I are just as likely to be going shot for shot with the guys and talking trash with them as we are to be knitting with the rest of the girls.

However, one of the guys I dated earlier in the year probably phrased it best. It's not that we're trying to be guys, we're just the "warrior woman" types and we fit in well with the boys. It intimidates some men, is a turn-off to others, and highly desirable to yet another group (and those are the ones we end up with.)

So I think like so many other things in life, gender identity tends to be on a continuum and it's not about one or two places on that continuum being right and the rest wrong. It's about being true to yourself and being yourself with the people who love you.


Let me not be so vain to think I'm the sole author of my victories and and a victim of my defeats. -- ze frank
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: believer] #241276
06/19/12 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted By: believer
Yabut......

The firefighter can do it all. He can rescue kittens, give advice on clothes (I'm thinking he might be gay), fix computers, etc.


Yup... my gaydar alarm went off when he started talking about fashion. LOL

I mean come on... Me and my he-man chief buddies sit around at the Chief's club and talk fashion all the time... I always ask "Do these uniform trousers make my a$$ look fat?"


Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men.
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: Kirby] #241277
06/19/12 03:26 AM
06/19/12 03:26 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
DFW, TX
TACticGAL Offline OP
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TACticGAL  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
DFW, TX
Originally Posted By: Kirby
Originally Posted By: believer
Yabut......

The firefighter can do it all. He can rescue kittens, give advice on clothes (I'm thinking he might be gay), fix computers, etc.


And put out fires. Never forget putting out fires.

I'm thinking he can light a fire, too. Just sayin'. wink


I said "dream guy". I've always been more attracted looks-wise to the tall broad shouldered blond nordic types.

However, I have been reminded recently that guys that look NOTHING like my dream guy can be EXACTLY what I need. razz So I re-iterate, I wouldn't kick firefighter margarita man out of my bed, even if he's making a crap margarita. wink


Let me not be so vain to think I'm the sole author of my victories and and a victim of my defeats. -- ze frank
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: Amazin] #241278
06/19/12 03:28 AM
06/19/12 03:28 AM
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But gay or not, Amazin, that would be my FWB guy. He's very appealing, somehow.


"I feel sad that I focused so much on his potential and so little on mine."
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: TACticGAL] #241281
06/19/12 03:34 AM
06/19/12 03:34 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
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Amazin Offline
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Originally Posted By: TACticGAL
Amazin - I agree that a woman needs to not try and be a man.

But I'm also amused at stereotypes. In my close circle of GF's there are 2 of us who tend to be more "masculine" than the typical woman. We are always joking about our "man cards" and losing them when we go for mani/pedi's. (I always regain mine by buying power tools or challenging one of the guys to spar. My friend C regains hers by peeing standing up. Tee hee.) When the gang is all hanging out together, C and I are just as likely to be going shot for shot with the guys and talking trash with them as we are to be knitting with the rest of the girls.

However, one of the guys I dated earlier in the year probably phrased it best. It's not that we're trying to be guys, we're just the "warrior woman" types and we fit in well with the boys. It intimidates some men, is a turn-off to others, and highly desirable to yet another group (and those are the ones we end up with.)

So I think like so many other things in life, gender identity tends to be on a continuum and it's not about one or two places on that continuum being right and the rest wrong. It's about being true to yourself and being yourself with the people who love you.


I know what you're saying.

The story I told was an example of extreame... Billy was the manliest heterosexual woman I've ever met. LOL

I respect a cowgirl who can rope, ride, and shoot just as good or better than the cowboys. But seeing a woman get slobbering drunk, obnoxious and intentionally try and pick a fight with a man who is a complete stranger... It's a little too much. KWIM?

This may be a stereotype but that's something I'd probably expect more from a man than a woman.


Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men.
Re: Dating without expectations [Re: Amazin] #241284
06/19/12 03:36 AM
06/19/12 03:36 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
DFW, TX
TACticGAL Offline OP
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TACticGAL  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
DFW, TX
Heh. We only get slobbering drunk at private parties. grin And we don't start fights with strange people, we just poke fun at them until they leave. grin


Let me not be so vain to think I'm the sole author of my victories and and a victim of my defeats. -- ze frank
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