Who's Online Now
2 registered members (Blair, Miranda), 8 guests, and 103 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Nonprofit Donations
2019 Campaign Meter
ProgressGoal
$200.00 
$2000
Paypal Donation to MA
 Trending Topics(Posts)
1.Save Marriage After Exposure67
2.HELP NEEDED - 2 Month post finding out about WH emotional affair27
3.I'm learning to talk21
4.WuD? - Moving on.13
5.Am I still a doormat?8
6.***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga***2
7.Warning MA Not Safe Message Keeps Popping Up1
8.Welcome Aboard, New Members!1
9.Save Marriage After Exposure1
10.How to deconstruct a marriage.0
*By replies in last 2 weeks.
In The Media(Posts)
Things men want3
These Are The Signs You're Dating A Narcissist3
Girlfriend's 'controlling' list of 22 rules for boyfriend goes viral: 'She sounds crazy'9
What Divorced Men Wish They Had Done Differently In Their Marriages7
Alienation of Affection / Criminal Conversation5
Would you pay your ex a 'break-up fee'? - BBC3
Delaware is now first US state to fully ban child marriage - CBS3
Nashville mayor resigns after affair, pleads guilty to theft2
7 Things Kids Need To Do For Themselves Before They Turn 13 - Healthyway1
When Is Porn Use a Problem? - Psychology Today2
more >>
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 15 of 20 1 2 13 14 15 16 17 19 20
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: LadyGrey] #222388
04/08/12 03:43 AM
04/08/12 03:43 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Al, we've gotten through the breast cancer diagnosis and treatment pretty damn well. Had some really good healing and bonding moments in there. .....
Wow. Big Stuff! I feel for both of you - a lot.

It's hard to start of giving advice which will probably sound remote and weird. Like trying to speak calmly to people who are currently in a bombarded WWI trench in France. Sorry. I am here, listening, for what that is worth.


Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Fight, freeze, flight, freeze, flee... I tried to talk about it a few times but I keep crying (not my deal) and I know intellectually I'm not responding rationally except my response is SO by the book in that im suggesting we POJA this point of disagreement that it must be rational and the corrext thing to do for our marriage no matter how destructive it feels now.
Well, that old Lizard is doing what it can to keep you alive. His is doing the same. I do not think of the Lizard as an opposing force, but a dearest (if sometimes confused) friend.

One thought is about crying/weeping/snarfling up a pillow, etc. It may not have been your "deal" but it is now!!. Grieving is there for a damn good reason and you are facing that reason, many of them, right now. Cry away. Get good at it. Here's a link to my "new" website. First one I've given out. Learning appropriate expression of Emotions.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I sometimes think I was better off before I knew all this stuff -- he says things to me and I'm like, "really? THAT's the way you are going to word your opinion?"
I think that everyone who learns this stuff says that at some time. "Wasn't life easier before I learned this." Oh and his response is a funny kind of mirroring, I think.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
My spastic efforts to communicate what I'm feeling today have not helped -- probably because I don't know what I'm feeling.
Then you communicate spastically and about stuff you are unclear about. That's ok. He may have to work a bit harder at keeping his feet on the ground. So what!

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
We were visiting my middle son at college and I asked him if we should make reservations for his graduation in a couple of years and thought "I hope can be here."
Hey, you've been close to death's door. The thought will pop into your mind probably for the rest of your life. Certainly pops into mine. Part of getting older.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
It is an irrational fear in that there is no reason to believe this cancer will kill me, and as an irrational fear it is hard for my husband to respond to -- he doesn't actually say "that's stupid" but... My cancer freaks out his lizard. What do you do when both lizards are freaking out from threats from several different directions, including your mate?
I wondered if you would get here.

First who the hell taught you that fears are supposed to be "rational." Shoot 'em. Fear is just one "sensible" reaction of a little Lizzy that is trying to keep you alive and is fairly confused. So is Anger. So I strongly suggest you forget all about "Fears" being either rational or irrational. They just are. We soothe 'em.

Second, it is really normal that two Lizzies go whacko at the same time. Two person "panic" is very normal. (What the heck is a yelling argument anyway.) Take breaks. Breathe. Move to calm places. Stay away from each other when panicked, if it's safer. TimeOuts are cool.

Blessings and good luck.

Last edited by AlTurtle; 04/08/12 05:46 PM. Reason: Fixed Bad URL

Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #222772
04/10/12 01:05 AM
04/10/12 01:05 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,639
L
LadyGrey Offline
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,639
I believe the both of us have been continuously schooled over the last several years on how little control we have over much of anything.

I think my husbands reaction to that is to tighten down and mine is to back off.

Today was mammogram day and naturally there were things, blah blah blah. Husband is worried, I am, for want of a better word, apathetic, and sure as hell not having another biopsy so he's not worried.

Maybe I'm more worn out by this than I'm willing to admit.

On the plane back from seeing our oh-so-happy son at college I shared with him my fears about not being there at graduation which is for me a metaphor for everything after. He mentioned that it scares him that if I'm not telling him those fears, what else am I not telling him? Pro that I am, I reminded him that my life is an open book -- he can see whatever, whenever. He came back with "that wasn't a fidelity related slam" and I said "I know - I'm slamming me because I put us in the situation where this is an issue.".

Honestly, when I looked up I expected someone there with a "Way to Never Forget" medal and a bunch of clappy hands.

And we didn't really speak again the rest of the night. Or much since.

How do I leave the affair in the past? It's been two years. When have I done enough to heal him?



Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: LadyGrey] #223195
04/11/12 05:54 PM
04/11/12 05:54 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,697
NewEveryDay Offline
Advocate
NewEveryDay  Offline
Advocate
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,697
Hi LG, I don't want to offend, so I put it in spoiler text, please don't read if religious stuff offends you.

Click to reveal..
God already forgives you, washes you clean, right? So all you have to do is keep showing up, which you're great at already, and let that forgiveness, that grace, find you where you are. The same way, He forgives your H, and healing will come for him when he lets that grace find him. Sometimes we need to consciously take a moment to sink into the grace every day, let it remind us, until it becomes part of the way we see the world again. And there will still be times your lizard is triggered, where you need to take that moment to self-soothe, to consciously sink into that grace again.


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: LadyGrey] #223228
04/11/12 07:54 PM
04/11/12 07:54 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Well, in the department of effort, you sure get very very high marks. Lizzy running all over the place. Breathing the calming to a Lizard - among other things.

Remember the top principles is that a Lizard likes Predictive Information and loves a Sense of Control. You've got little of both so Lizzy(s) are squealing.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
How do I leave the affair in the past? It's been two years. When have I done enough to heal him?


Two good questions.

Leave Affair in Past --- not possible, I believe. We humans, I believe are little "sense making machines" and part of that design is we have a Write Only Memory. We forget nothing. Not built that way. We seem designed to learn and become wiser based often on doing some pretty dumb things. I think an Affair is something to be learned from, and not something to be forgotten. When you both have squeezed the last bit of wisdom out of that experience, I imagine you will not dwell on it much at all.

When have you healed him enough? Well, I have two answers. A) you don't heal him, you just assist. (I think you have to "get this" at a deep level.) He has to become engaged in healing himself. All my papers on Frustrations and boundaries comes in here. Your first step may be to continue to help him identify is part in all this (the affair, the reactions, etc.) B) He will be healed enough when he no longer reacts uncomfortably to the provoking triggers.

E.g. Let's assume one thing he reacts to is the word "affair." He will be healed enough when he hears that word and his lizard stays calm.

That's the long and the short of it.

Hang in there.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #236546
05/30/12 04:18 AM
05/30/12 04:18 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,639
L
LadyGrey Offline
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,639
I am picking this up from your post to Herf on another thread.

I am struggling with -- and, I think, at times failing miserably at, separating my reactions to my mother from my reactions to my husband.

"Old ghosts" is what my psychiatrist calls it. Probably your term is Imago -- that's a total uneducated guess by the way.

What happens is we get in a fuss which often ends with "I'm not your mother!" and he has an excellent point-- he isn't.

Since I stopped suggesting that since he got so upset, he stopped reaponding that way which did NOT mean I stopped feeling it.

So, we had a bit of a fuss over my daughter two nights ago which I would have put in the NBD (no big deal) category. But it struck him and he initiated a Relationship Talk yesterday afternoon.

Liz is not a fan of Relationship Talks.

He told me that it is very hurtful to him when I treat him like he is not on my team -- well, in this case, he wasn't so what do you say? "You were being an idiot playing fast and loose with the safety of our daughter by having her drive 14 hours by herself then hooking up with the Craig's list movers to get her out of her apartment which is in a not so great part of Denver."

He said he had not focused on the danger piece of it which, while good, didn't actually make me feel all better.

My daughter is an exceptionally charismatic, beautiful, engaging and essentialy naive 23 year old. They don't lock anything where she lives most of the time at a house in the mountains.

I played the safety card and my nephew ended up driving with her. I had an infusion this morning -- damn those steroids, and if my nephew hadn't, I would be driving right now.

In the relationship talk, he clarified some things surrounding daughter -- she can be a bit of a drama queen -- and highlighted some instances recently where what was meant as an innocent comment from him put me on high alert. A more or less innocent comment--not as innocent as he thinks or as dreadful as I think. A "I'm going to fix you now don't you feel all better" comment.

He says he wants to be my best friend -- that he gave up the criticism thing long ago but I hear something different from what he is saying because he did criticize me for a few decades (his words) and my mother did the job until he could take over.

He says he wants for me to want to be with him so he understands he has to stop with he anger and criticism.

Evidently, he hates it when I startle when he walks in the room and jump out of my chair to see what he wants.

As an aside, I've been saying for 15 years that if I could stay seated with a book in my hand and no elevated heart rate when my husband walked in the room -- THAT is a content marriage.

My IC says I need to lose the rationality -- that I'm unusual in that regard -- and I need to start speaking my feelings. Is there a Rosetta Stone course for that?

I have no idea how to go forward from here. He makes me nervous. I soothe him. I don't want to be nervous around him.

Aha! Maybe he DOES want me to be nervous around him as then he gets what he needs?

Surely not.

Last edited by LadyGrey; 05/30/12 04:33 AM.

Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: LadyGrey] #236862
05/31/12 04:16 PM
05/31/12 04:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Lots of little bits of things that all seem important to me. Thanks for sharing. I can add my thoughts, which you will use as you see fit.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey

I am struggling with -- and, I think, at times failing miserably at, separating my reactions to my mother from my reactions to my husband. "Old ghosts" is what my psychiatrist calls it. Probably your term is Imago -- that's a total uneducated guess by the way.
Since you are both bright and thoughtful, I think you'll have to make peace with this one. People always marry/stick with people who can easily act like Reasonable Facsimiles of the originally wounding people. This means that in many ways he (any partner) will have habits that will seem exactly like those of your mom (or dad) when they were at their worst. Reciprocally, he's got the same situation. "You remind of my dad/mom!" Some people become aware of it and others (like us) even learn to be amused by it. Most are unaware. My guess is that you two will have to just get comfortable with it.

Sandra's first burst of wisdom to me was this conversation. "Damn it you are just like my dad", says I. Her response, "And you picked me that way! Work with it." Her provoking behavior was taught by her family. It provokes me, cuz I picked her to be like my provoking parents.

NEXT step is to heal the reactivity that is provoked.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
What happens is we get in a fuss which often ends with "I'm not your mother!" and he has an excellent point-- he isn't. Since I stopped suggesting that since he got so upset, he stopped reaponding that way which did NOT mean I stopped feeling it.
Better response is something like, "Of course you are my mother. But you sure can do shinola that reminds me of her and I am working on learning healthy reactions to it. Thanks for reminding me that I ain't finished learning."

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
So, we had a bit of a fuss over my daughter two nights ago which I would have put in the NBD (no big deal) category. But it struck him and he initiated a Relationship Talk yesterday afternoon.

Liz is not a fan of Relationship Talks.
Not sure what's scarying Liz about RTs. Sounds like sharing new stuff. Work on mirroring, validating with Timeouts in the wings ready for use.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
He told me that it is very hurtful to him when I treat him like he is not on my team --
Sounds like a mom/or dad issue for him was emerging. I loved that period when both of us would react at the same time. Uglyyyyy. Timeouts stopped that.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
well, in this case, he wasn't so what do you say?
Seems you guys still argue over "facts". Master-Slave at its best. Might want to quit it. And the next sentence seems pure MasterTalk - a "you message" usually is.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
"You were being an idiot playing fast and loose with the safety of our daughter by having her drive 14 hours by herself then hooking up with the Craig's list movers to get her out of her apartment which is in a not so great part of Denver."
Nice theory!

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
He said he had not focused on the danger piece of it which, while good, didn't actually make me feel all better.
Gotta run. Far as I can get this morning.



Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: LadyGrey] #236890
05/31/12 06:47 PM
05/31/12 06:47 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Continued ...
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
He said he had not focused on the danger piece of it which, while good, didn't actually make me feel all better.
You may not like what he said, but I hope you were glad he was candid.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
My daughter is an exceptionally charismatic, beautiful, engaging and essentialy naive 23 year old. They don't lock anything where she lives most of the time at a house in the mountains.
Sounds nice and normal. I gather she is in the middle of learning who she can trust and who not.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I played the safety card and my nephew ended up driving with her. I had an infusion this morning -- damn those steroids, and if my nephew hadn't, I would be driving right now.
Not sure what a "safety card" is. Sounds as if in the name of "safety" you got your way. Not sure that is a good idea.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
In the relationship talk, he clarified some things surrounding daughter -- she can be a bit of a drama queen -- and highlighted some instances recently where what was meant as an innocent comment from him put me on high alert. A more or less innocent comment--not as innocent as he thinks or as dreadful as I think. A "I'm going to fix you now don't you feel all better" comment.
I really enjoy drama queens. Tracking the drama is fun for me. And they throw out a lot of stuff that I could react to, and don't. Lots of boundary skill practice.

I like your Relationship Talk. Sounds like a growing laboratory where you can both learn how much you misread each other. Nice to remove that misreading shinola.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
He says he wants to be my best friend -- that he gave up the criticism thing long ago but I hear something different from what he is saying because he did criticize me for a few decades (his words) and my mother did the job until he could take over.
He sounds like a "keeper." Wants to be best friend (Vintage Love) and has lots of work ahead of him. My guess is it's not easy for you to relax and be a durable friend back. Well, keep a going.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
He says he wants for me to want to be with him so he understands he has to stop with he anger and criticism.
Good awareness of a couple of good targets for him to pursue. I think you managed to get to him. Oh, by the way, your part of those goals is probably to be less bothered by his anger and maybe amused by his attempts to criticize. Work for everyone! Sounds like a couple on-the-way.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Evidently, he hates it when I startle when he walks in the room and jump out of my chair to see what he wants.
Let's validate that. He walks in feeling lovey and gentle. You startle, cuz your lizard freaks at something, noises, etc. He reacts to your reaction as a proof that you are rejecting his lovey feelings. Hmmmm Suggest he learn to hum a bit on the way into the room to give your liz some heads up.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
As an aside, I've been saying for 15 years that if I could stay seated with a book in my hand and no elevated heart rate when my husband walked in the room -- THAT is a content marriage.
Right. And with a Liz and a background like yours that is not a simple goal to reach. But it is reachable. Liz hates surprises. So give it warnings - slow build up. As he starts toward you from another place in the house, he could try saying, "Gonna be your friend, gonna be your friend..etc." Till you hear him coming.

My wife and I have solves several of those things. One phrase I use when I walk into a room with her is, "I was looking/hunting for you." Seems to work.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
My IC says I need to lose the rationality -- that I'm unusual in that regard -- and I need to start speaking my feelings. Is there a Rosetta Stone course for that?
Rosetta Stone course. Hah. Learning to speak "safety." Great idea. You are in the middle of a personalized course like that.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I have no idea how to go forward from here.
If you know how to go forward, you would have. So this is exactly where you should be right now -- hunting for a new way forward.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
He makes me nervous. I soothe him. I don't want to be nervous around him.
Well, back to a sign on the wall. He cannot make you nervous! No one can make anyone feel anything. He can do things. Your Liz can detect them and freak. He can change what he does over and over until you find things he can do that makes your liz purr. Probably will be quite a search.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Aha! Maybe he DOES want me to be nervous around him as then he gets what he needs? Surely not.
Doubt it, but it's a fun theory. It might have been some of the habits he learned as a kid. Most NPs who walked in my office used to be scared and would try to make me nervous so that I wouldn't focus on them. He could have that habit, would needs to unlearn it, with your help. Hmmm. I wonder if a NP would practice saying, "I'm gonna like my therapist, I'm gonna like my therapist...." as he walks into the therapy room would make more use of therapy?

Oh. Sandra said something the other day that might be of help. If you build boundary skills (soldiers) and really train them, they may get confused and not let you out of the castle.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #237421
06/03/12 02:35 AM
06/03/12 02:35 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,611
The Dark Side of the Moon
AntigoneRisen Offline
Board of Directors
AntigoneRisen  Offline
Board of Directors
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,611
The Dark Side of the Moon
Quote:
He told me that it is very hurtful to him when I treat him like he is not on my team -- well, in this case, he wasn't so what do you say?


My H says this every once in a while. The thing is, you actually have to be on my team for me to treat you like you are. Telling me what I should think and feel doesn't fall under my definition of "my team".


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AntigoneRisen] #237423
06/03/12 02:52 AM
06/03/12 02:52 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,639
L
LadyGrey Offline
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,639
Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
Quote:
He told me that it is very hurtful to him when I treat him like he is not on my team -- well, in this case, he wasn't so what do you say?


My H says this every once in a while. The thing is, you actually have to be on my team for me to treat you like you are. Telling me what I should think and feel doesn't fall under my definition of "my team".


I hate it when reality gets in the way of my theory.

The telling me what to do is so pervasive and ingrained, I can't even really recognize it until hours or days after the fact, but nonetheless I can see that I laid the groundwork to not do what he says for days.

And I think that, for him, being on the team means doing what he says.

And I KNOW that one can lie to get around all of that. You just need to be clever enough to stay ahead of the criticism curve while still doing what you want.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: LadyGrey] #237424
06/03/12 02:55 AM
06/03/12 02:55 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,611
The Dark Side of the Moon
AntigoneRisen Offline
Board of Directors
AntigoneRisen  Offline
Board of Directors
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,611
The Dark Side of the Moon
Quote:
And I think that, for him, being on the team means doing what he says.


Interesting. Can you tell me why you think that?

Quote:
And I KNOW that one can lie to get around all of that. You just need to be clever enough to stay ahead of the criticism curve while still doing what you want.


Sure, one can. What a lot of work. I'm too lazy to do all that work. "Uh, no." is a lot less work.


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AntigoneRisen] #237489
06/03/12 09:11 PM
06/03/12 09:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,639
L
LadyGrey Offline
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,639
Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
Quote:
And I think that, for him, being on the team means doing what he says.


Interesting. Can you tell me why you think that?


I think a lot of it stems from my relationship with the kids -- he wants to manage them through me.

Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
And I KNOW that one can lie to get around all of that. You just need to be clever enough to stay ahead of the criticism curve while still doing what you want.


Sure, one can. What a lot of work. I'm too lazy to do all that work. "Uh, no." is a lot less work.


This is learned behavior from a very young age. Doesn't make it right -- just automatic. What happens is I give predictive information and he often uses that information to control:

"I'm going to Wal Mart".

"You should wait and go tomorrow when I have all the measurements done."

I don't want to go tomorrow. I want to go right now because I need gardening gloves or cat litter or whatever.

That's a benign example but it illustrates the mindset.

Last edited by LadyGrey; 06/03/12 09:16 PM.

Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: LadyGrey] #237564
06/04/12 11:30 AM
06/04/12 11:30 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,334
Wonderland
20yrsdone Offline
Member
20yrsdone  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,334
Wonderland
As a man, I'd write that off as she needs a shopping fix and would not have said anything to you knowing it wouldn't have mattered anyway! But that's just me...I've learned discretion is the better part of valor. Not my decision to make or change!


Accept what is,
Let go of what was
and have faith in what will be.
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: LadyGrey] #238550
06/08/12 05:00 AM
06/08/12 05:00 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,611
The Dark Side of the Moon
AntigoneRisen Offline
Board of Directors
AntigoneRisen  Offline
Board of Directors
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,611
The Dark Side of the Moon
Quote:
"You should wait and go tomorrow when I have all the measurements done."


"I see that you believe I should wait until tomorrow. You have every right to believe that. Can we talk about this after I get back from Walmart?"

grin


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AntigoneRisen] #238565
06/08/12 10:41 AM
06/08/12 10:41 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,376
T
TC_Manhattan Offline
Member
TC_Manhattan  Offline
Member
T
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,376
Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
Quote:
"You should wait and go tomorrow when I have all the measurements done."


"I see that you believe I should wait until tomorrow. You have every right to believe that. Can we talk about this after I get back from Walmart?"

grin


AR, there's something about that last part of your reply that sounds like a con.

Perhaps if you said "later," or maybe "when is a good time for us to talk about this?" rather than "after I get back from Walmart." There's something about that last phrase that sounds dismissive or defiant to me. It's not the intent, but how it comes across that affects the dynamic.

Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: LadyGrey] #238590
06/08/12 02:25 PM
06/08/12 02:25 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey


"I'm going to Wal Mart".

"You should wait and go tomorrow when I have all the measurements done."
The word "should" alerts me to a possible attempt to control me. To me "should" implies "there is a belief system around here" and "someone is trying to stuff it up someone's ...."

So I almost always, habitually, reject the "should" (internally) and look for the rest of the person's message which is usually the beginning of some sort of sharing. I RETAIN my right to decide what I am going to do about it - always. I just gather data.

Thus my response would be something like. "Hmm. What are your thoughts about waiting till tomorrow?"

The "Hmm." is what is left over from my internal Lizard screaming, "You a..hole! Who are you try to tell me what to do? Etc. Etc."

To me my tactic can save the day from an unpleasant mess.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
That's a benign example, but it illustrates the mindset.
Could be benign. Might not. I thought it a great example.

Oh. And as you are illustrating a "mindset," are you referring to yours or the one you imagine he has?


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: TC_Manhattan] #238759
06/09/12 03:38 AM
06/09/12 03:38 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,611
The Dark Side of the Moon
AntigoneRisen Offline
Board of Directors
AntigoneRisen  Offline
Board of Directors
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,611
The Dark Side of the Moon
Quote:
AR, there's something about that last part of your reply that sounds like a con.

Perhaps if you said "later," or maybe "when is a good time for us to talk about this?" rather than "after I get back from Walmart." There's something about that last phrase that sounds dismissive or defiant to me. It's not the intent, but how it comes across that affects the dynamic.


I see that it seems like a con to you. However, I am having trouble seeing that when it is directly stated. Defiant is interesting, as to defy someone that someone must have some level of authority to dictate or control your actions.

My point here is that just because someone tells you that you "should" do something does not place any onus or obligation upon you to do so.

Acknowledging that someone believes you should do something is one thing. Doing it simply because that person says so is quite another. This would be a boundary issue.


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AntigoneRisen] #239674
06/13/12 07:38 PM
06/13/12 07:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,309
Colorado
LovingAnyway Offline
Member
LovingAnyway  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,309
Colorado
My goal is to do a "should/shouldn't" conversion in my head, close to what Al was doing.

When I hear "You should wait and go tomorrow when I have all the measurements done." I convert that to:

"I want you to wait until tomorrow when I plan to have all the measurements. I'm afraid I'm going to give you the wrong measurements, or be blamed if something goes wrong. I don't want to be wrong or to be blamed for your anger, disappointment."

That's long...not my usual conversion. Shorter: "I'm afraid right now, my lizard is on high alert as it does when I feel rushed. I fell in love with you for your passionate, instant responses, and now, mostly I fear them. Like what drew me to you now hits my lizard the hardest."

Reassuring someone's lizard when yours is reactive isn't easy...just our job as partners in this world. I love to know what's up with my DH, what he's really saying or not. My should conversion may be totally wrong for your DH, LG. It's what I do in my head to calm my own "you-aren't-the-boss-of-me" lizard and to really understand what my DH is saying. And yes, I blamed him for 15 years for my stuff...so these last nearly eight years, I haven't and he no longer says "should/shouldn't" anymore. He doesn't fear my responses any longer...and he does his own conversion and clarification for me, as needed. Which is how we formed a new trust area.

LA


The Paradoxical Commandments

Married 28 years/Together 30
Recovered 10 years
MALovingAnyway@gmail.com
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: LovingAnyway] #239813
06/14/12 04:30 AM
06/14/12 04:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,997
S
SmilingWife Offline
Global Moderator
SmilingWife  Offline
Global Moderator
S
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,997
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
My goal is to do a "should/shouldn't" conversion in my head, close to what Al was doing.

When I hear "You should wait and go tomorrow when I have all the measurements done." I convert that to:

"I want you to wait until tomorrow when I plan to have all the measurements. I'm afraid I'm going to give you the wrong measurements, or be blamed if something goes wrong. I don't want to be wrong or to be blamed for your anger, disappointment."

That's long...not my usual conversion. Shorter: "I'm afraid right now, my lizard is on high alert as it does when I feel rushed. I fell in love with you for your passionate, instant responses, and now, mostly I fear them. Like what drew me to you now hits my lizard the hardest."

Reassuring someone's lizard when yours is reactive isn't easy...just our job as partners in this world. I love to know what's up with my DH, what he's really saying or not. My should conversion may be totally wrong for your DH, LG. It's what I do in my head to calm my own "you-aren't-the-boss-of-me" lizard and to really understand what my DH is saying. And yes, I blamed him for 15 years for my stuff...so these last nearly eight years, I haven't and he no longer says "should/shouldn't" anymore. He doesn't fear my responses any longer...and he does his own conversion and clarification for me, as needed. Which is how we formed a new trust area.

LA



Hi LA. Good to see you. waves

Really enjoying this thread. LG I also have the 'startle response'. A holdover from my years when if my now XH came home and I was sitting down it was proof to him that I sat on my butt all day doing nothing.

Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #241779
06/21/12 03:37 AM
06/21/12 03:37 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,639
L
LadyGrey Offline
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,639
Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey


"I'm going to Wal Mart".

"You should wait and go tomorrow when I have all the measurements done."
The word "should" alerts me to a possible attempt to control me. To me "should" implies "there is a belief system around here" and "someone is trying to stuff it up someone's ...."

So I almost always, habitually, reject the "should" (internally) and look for the rest of the person's message which is usually the beginning of some sort of sharing. I RETAIN my right to decide what I am going to do about it - always. I just gather data.

Thus my response would be something like. "Hmm. What are your thoughts about waiting till tomorrow?"

The "Hmm." is what is left over from my internal Lizard screaming, "You a..hole! Who are you try to tell me what to do? Etc. Etc."

To me my tactic can save the day from an unpleasant mess.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
That's a benign example, but it illustrates the mindset.
Could be benign. Might not. I thought it a great example.

Oh. And as you are illustrating a "mindset," are you referring to yours or the one you imagine he has?


Interesting question. Got me thinking.

For SO long, EVERYTHING was just SUCH an effort. I had one, then two, then three infants/toddlers/children and NO ONE to help me working full time at a demanding job.

Honestly, at the ripe old age of 52 with all of that at least a decade behind me and quite a few events between now and then, I still cry at those words.

So when he was home, I would try to slip out to go to the cleaners or the grocery or whatever. Not to do anything WRONG like have lunch out. Just to get stuff done -- taking three kids in and out of the car at every stop -- and I had a strict never leave them in the car for even 5 seconds policy -- is SO tiring.

His rule was I had to take the baby and one other kid whenever I left him home with the third.

And I honored that 90% of the time -- but if I could slip out, I did. Sometimes by myself, sometimes with just one kid.

He was gone ALL the time -- he worked hours that communist China would reject but he also played golf and he hunted -- he hunted a lot. He left me in the ER with the baby who needed a CT scan and the two older kids running around to go dove hunting.

Wow, I cant even write about this anymore. It's too upsetting.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: LadyGrey] #241877
06/21/12 03:11 PM
06/21/12 03:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Glad to hear from you, LG, even if things sound tough as you retell them.

I was thinking of you yesterday while I was responding to a Comment on my website. I'll include it here. Twas about the process of Waking Up. I even dug up an old unfinished article on the topic.

This point of view is helpful to me.

Question:
Originally Posted By: Undecided
Hi my name is Undecided,

I left my husband 1 month ago and I feel pretty good. I love him with all my heart but there has been a disconnection between the both of us for years. I do not trust him at all. I've told him over and over again, but he doesn't seems interested in nothing I say.

Now that I'm gone I have his undivided attention. It's sad to say but this is the most attention I've received from him in years and it feels pretty darn good. I don't know whether or not if I'm ready for a divorce or even if I want to go back. I'm in need of what direction should I go inů.


Response by Al:
Originally Posted By: Al Turtle
Thanks, Undecided, for your question.

For me the problems of fixing and improving a relationship often involve this kind of "waking someone up." One or both partners seem to be ignoring major ugly stuff that is going on. It is as if they are asleep. Typically, something makes one wake up while the other sleeps on.

Mind you, what people are waking up to is "situations that are painful," "behaviors that hurt," and a sense of "I don't know what to do to make this better, but I want it to be better." And so I see the first step is waking up, both waking up. The second step is all about learning how to make it better over and over.

But what is common, and your question points to, is that often one partner won't wake up until something extreme is done (divorce papers, moving out, etc. etc.) AND the question is "will they stay awake?" It is a great question. If I get my partner to wake up and pay attention by throwing divorce papers at them, do I have to keep throwing divorce papers at them in order to keep them awake? If I "give in" on the divorce papers, will they go back to sleep?"

Have I got your situation?

If I have this is a problem with solutions, I think. And one person can do it. I refer to this in my paper on Individual Boundaries. We often do not have in our kit of skills, a wide range of different levels of a tools. Think of different sizes of screwdrivers. To live life we need a whole set of different sizes from tiny ones to fix our glasses to huge ones to undo the bolts that hold the boulders on the side of our driveways.

Now shift the metaphor to a "partner wake up tool" and you'll see that you had to use divorce (huge pain of leaving) which takes a lot of effort and is probably overly large. Kind of like using a shotgun to kill a mosquito. It will work, butů..

The principle, for me, is "he/she who can leave has all the power." But you want to use this tool wisely.

Learn to use easier and simpler signs and tokens of leaving in order to keep your partner awake. I am not talking about controlling him, cuz that will become another problem by itself. I am speaking of keeping him and you awake in a relationship that slowly, progressively, cleans up the ugly stuff that is going on. It takes time to get there, so the easier the tool to use, the better. (A specific set of examples of these tools surround the TimeOut. Anyone is a working relationship who doesn't seek to become expert at this tool, I think, is foolish.)

You could start by saying, "I'm willing to work with you. I'm not willing to go back to what we were doing. I'm divorcing that, and you if that is the only way to build a better relationship for me to live in. I want a good one. (see Biological Dream and Vintage Love) I'd rather get there with you. I like that you are paying attention to me, but I don't want to turn this relationship into a bullying one (see Master/Slave) one. Would you give me some ideas of what I can do to "wake you up" if I think you are going to sleep, again."

Good luck.


Also here's my article on Getting to Work .



Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #254235
08/29/12 06:34 PM
08/29/12 06:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 113
O
Otherwise Offline
Member
Otherwise  Offline
Member
O
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 113
Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
She showed me that a salesperson walking toward her on the beach in Mexico was a "source of conflict" while 100 feet away.


My wife is just like that, so I guess she is an avoider?

And I guess I am a clinger

BUT

when I feel abandonment may be about to happen to me
and my lizard panics

my reaction is to withdraw from the scene. Get my withdrawal in first.
Rather than pursue and cling and chase.

So what does that make me? Still a clinger?


------------------------------------------------------
Male, age 55, three years into my second marriage.
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: Otherwise] #256269
09/12/12 04:30 PM
09/12/12 04:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Good question, but I am used to people having both Clinger and Avoider skills that may display in different situations. That old get-out-of-town-first sounds like avoiding (Fleeing) based on experiences of getting slammed. Certainly my wife's behavior was avoiding.

To tell which you are in any "stable" way, I'd have to hear more about your partnership. My clue for me was that when I had no data from my partner I would pursue getting that data long after she showed major signs of distress. "You gotta tell me!! Don't walk away!" Real stupid stuff. Made me a fairly rabid pursuer. Gave me little clue. She told me I looked like an Alien running straight at her.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #275515
01/23/13 12:46 AM
01/23/13 12:46 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,344
O
ohmy_marie Offline
Member
ohmy_marie  Offline
Member
O
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,344
deleted-- not feeling so brave today. *sorry*

Last edited by ohmy_marie; 01/23/13 01:26 AM.

may came home with a smooth round stone
as small as a world and as large as alone. -- e. e. cummings
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: ohmy_marie] #275517
01/23/13 12:59 AM
01/23/13 12:59 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,344
O
ohmy_marie Offline
Member
ohmy_marie  Offline
Member
O
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,344
deleted.

Last edited by ohmy_marie; 01/23/13 01:28 AM.

may came home with a smooth round stone
as small as a world and as large as alone. -- e. e. cummings
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: ohmy_marie] #275521
01/23/13 01:46 AM
01/23/13 01:46 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 20,616
B
believer Offline
Member
believer  Offline
Member
B
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 20,616
Sorry you aren't feeling so brave today, marie. Thinking of you.


"I feel sad that I focused so much on his potential and so little on mine."
Page 15 of 20 1 2 13 14 15 16 17 19 20

Moderated by  star*fish 

Newest Members
Marcin, Gkumar, Neets08, 13defroad, Firework
2039 Registered Users
Latest Topics(Posts)
Warning MA Not Safe Message Keeps Popping Up1
Save Marriage After Exposure1
Save Marriage After Exposure67
Share and enjoy!1
Things men want3
What To Do153
Circle of Safety Check3
Asparagus? Info on possible health benefits1
Glimpse of light in the tunnel3
Husband living w/ mom and affair42
Community Information
2039Members
1Penalty Box
6Suspended

42

Forums
8469Topics
461145Posts
 
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1
(Release build 20180111)
Page Time: 0.036s Queries: 15 (0.013s) Memory: 3.4195 MB (Peak: 3.8208 MB) Zlib enabled in php.ini Server Time: 2019-07-16 14:00:45 UTC